I have been loading for and shooting the 458 win for years.

Getting in excess of 2100 FPS with a 500 gr solid or soft point (without excess pressure signs)is a piece of cake.There are numerous powders which will achieve this.

It's been demonstrated that the 450 thru 470 nitro ACTUAL BALLISTICS gave velocities only slightly above 2000 FPS and they did very well for many years......Perhaps I've missed something.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:

Getting in excess of 2100 FPS with a 500 gr solid or soft point (without excess pressure signs)is a piece of cake.There are numerous powders which will achieve this.

I agree.....

Even if it wasn't so, I do beleive 500@2050 would still do some damage....

Matt V.

SOME DAMAGE??????.....That's quite an understatement!!!!....500 grains at 2000 FPS is a fair description of the 450 thru 470 Nitro's ACTUAL PERFORMANCE.....I doubt that John Taylor ever thought of it as something that would merely do "some damage".

The 458 lott will do everything the 458 win mag will do, and all the lott will do, the win mag limits you to win mag performance.

I've only had the lott, and still found it to be lacking in powder capacity, I can't imagine a case 0.3" shorter as a benefit. Run the lott at win mag levels and you run lower pressure, and have a larger selection of powders to use.

Paul,the 458WM is supposed to have a shorter action.That there is a plus.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Paul,the 458WM is supposed to have a shorter action.That there is a plus.

When the Winchester company reduced the basic Holland & Holland belted case to 2.5 back in the 50's,they probably should've left it at it's original length instead.

That said,it still has to be admitted by anyone who is honest about the matter that when properly loaded,it accomplishes the original mission.That mission was to roughly approximate the ballistics of the old 450 Nitro smokeless and comparable rounds.In fact,it actually beats them when loaded accordingly.I will repeat again that the original velocity figures were inflated.Ivory hunters of the early 20th century did not have chronographs.

Since these ballistics have demonstrated time and again that they are more than enough,the entire discussion tends to remind one of little boys slipping behind the barn to have a pissing match where some can brag that they're able to pee a little furthur.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Big Bore, I guess you are a fan of the win mag?

Therećs a lot of truth to what you are saying, but there are lots of reasons to go the route of the Lott as well. Me, I went Ackley -- I can shoot all three and it might be even a bit louder that the win mag as well -LOL

Not necessarily a fan, I have a 458 Win by virtue od getting one for the right price at the right time. Nothing wrong with the 458 lott, bit I feel that too much emphasis is being placed on paper ballistics. Truly I would not feel undergunned with the 458 win, and I wouldn't refuse a 458 lott. What I would never do is sell a 458 win to get a lott.

John

I want to know where your getting 458 win mag brass to reload.Its totally dried up.I cant find any anywhere.I sold my two 458s a pushfeed 458 model 70 and a savage bolt action.i use the 416 rem mags asmy dangerous game rifles.I have not seen many 458 lott rifles around except one ruger magnum rifle.I hope more 458 win brass is made.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I want to know where your getting 458 win mag brass to reload.Its totally dried up.I cant find any anywhere.I sold my two 458s a pushfeed 458 model 70 and a savage bolt action.i use the 416 rem mags asmy dangerous game rifles.I have not seen many 458 lott rifles around except one ruger magnum rifle.I hope more 458 win brass is made.

Dgr416 you don’t have where you are located in your profile.
The 458 brass is only produced once a year and when it is gone you have to weight till the next run. I am on notice at Midway for 1000 pieces when it becomes available. I have had no problem with Lott, perhaps the demand isn’t as high. You can still get Norma 458 win mag for $41.20 per 20 or A-Square for $37.50 per 20. I think I will wait on the Hornady Brass or the Winchester. Right now I have enough Lott cases to hold me incase the prairie dogs get out of control.
I won't get into the debate except to say I have 2ea 458 lott's 0 458 win mags.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
When the Winchester company reduced the basic Holland & Holland belted case to 2.5 back in the 50's,they probably should've left it at it's original length instead.

That said,it still has to be admitted by anyone who is honest about the matter that when properly loaded,it accomplishes the original mission.That mission was to roughly approximate the ballistics of the old 450 Nitro smokeless and comparable rounds.In fact,it actually beats them when loaded accordingly.I will repeat again that the original velocity figures were inflated.Ivory hunters of the early 20th century did not have chronographs.

Since these ballistics have demonstrated time and again that they are more than enough,the entire discussion tends to remind one of little boys slipping behind the barn to have a pissing match where some can brag that they're able to pee a little furthur.

Ray M,

I have a log around somewhere that I used to compare actual 450 NE and 470 NE velocities for loads that shot to regulation for the rifle's owner. Most rifles in 450 NE 3 1/4" shot 50-100fps slower than the nominal velocity of 480grs at 2150fps. A few actually shot close, at 2125-2150fps and one shot best at 2160fps. More 450 NE No2's shot closer to the nominal 480grs at 2175fps, but more of them had longer barrels too.

There was more variance with the 470, with rifles shooting anywhere from 2025fps up to 2250fps, but there were more modern rifles in the sample and some of those were Searcy's regulated to shoot faster loads. I say the average was 2100fps, maybe 2075fps. (I'm moving and the log must be packed, I can't find it.)

In Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the Britsh Double Rifle" he states that the first target velocity to seek, when trying to find a load that shoots to a vintage 450 or 470 rifle's regulation, is 100fps slower than the nominal velocity of the round (and then you would work up or down from there.)

In any event, there is, from my observations, a noticeable difference in performance on elephants between the 500gr Woodleigh solid at 2050fps and at 2135fps. I have found reloading the 458wm to 2135fps to be very straight forward and with no compression or drop tubes or issues of any kind. I would load my rifle hotter and the manuals tell me there is plenty more to go, but it is a double rifle and 2135fps with the 500gr Woodleighs is what shoots to regulation.

I prefer 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at 2190fps for elephants. Again, this load is also a midlin' load and shoots extremely well and to regulation in my rifle. Penetration is far superior in elephants and cape buffalo (really too much penetration for cape buffalo, if there is such a thing) than that of the Woodleighs at 2135fps, about 40% greater penetration in my experience, and no noticable loss of knock down or stunning effect when the shot isn't perfect.

As Richard Harland said earlier in a post on this thread, the 458wm is plenty sufficient for any game. And Richard Harland has thousands and thousands of elephants under his belt.

JPK

fivebigbores, I chronographed some Hornady Heavy Mag ammo out of my CZ 550 .458 Lott on a sunny but cool day in Southern California (right near sea level) a couple of years ago and the best we could get was 2150 fps. The Hornady Lott ammo all ran near or at 2300 fps........

If you can't kill it with a 500 grain bullet @ 2150 fps then another 100fps is not likely to make much difference. a decent little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet 100fps!!

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
SOME DAMAGE??????.....That's quite an understatement!!!!....500 grains at 2000 FPS is a fair description of the 450 thru 470 Nitro's ACTUAL PERFORMANCE.....I doubt that John Taylor ever thought of it as something that would merely do "some damage".

"Some Damage" was ment to be a rhetorical understatement of sorts....

My 458WM is in the mail!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
My 458WM is in the mail!

Congrats... hope you enjoy

Trophyhunter,

No offense was intended.

JPK,

It was the typical vintage rifle with the usual carried barrel lengths that I was making reference to.Then,as now,velocities varied among them.

My statement was regarding the "usual"rule of thumb of their being about 100 fps slower than advertised.I believe that the "ball park"figure of 2000-2050 is close enough on average.

However,I still found your post to be very informative and interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
Trophyhunter,

No offense was intended.

None Taken.....

I have to agree about 500@2050, backed by such cartridges as the 470's proven track record who could ask for much more?

It's in our nature as hunters, shooters, & handloaders to want to quible over minutia (i.e. 100 fps). When in reality the difference between the Lott and the Winnie are pretty small...But if we didn't agrue and discuss these types of issues then this board would be pretty dull....

I own rifles chambered for both rounds, a No1 in the WM and a RSM in the Lott. I think with handloads the difference between the two cartidges is about 100 fps...

Matt V

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
JPK,

It was the typical vintage rifle with the usual carried barrel lengths that I was making reference to.Then,as now,velocities varied among them.

My statement was regarding the "usual"rule of thumb of their being about 100 fps slower than advertised.I believe that the "ball park"figure of 2000-2050 is close enough on average.

However,I still found your post to be very informative and interesting.

Yes, given your earlier posts, I guessed that you might find my data interesting. BTW, most of the other rifles I have data for, the 500/450, 500/465, etc, point to somewhat larger downward deviation from the nominal published velocities. But the samples are smaller.

When you stack a properly loaded 458wm against the legendary NE rounds, nothing is found wanting.

JPK

On the loghter side of things, there is a sure way to get your 458 win an extra 100 fps without any pressure issues.......

Have your guide drive the truck at 68.18 mph towards your target while you pull the trigger.....

At 150 mph, you will have more KE than the 458 lott (and will definately need a drink after the hubnt is over!)

John

I think it depends more on the action your starting with. I think my model 70 Safari is pretty stupid with a blocked short magazine to make a 458 Win fit. If something was starting with a standard 06 length the Win mag is a good solution without a lot of dinking around. If Win had started with the Lott, someone else would have made the Win.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you can't kill it with a 500 grain bullet @ 2150 fps then another 100fps is not likely to make much difference. a decent little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet 100fps!!

Phil,

I look at them as the difference between an extra cab and a crew cab truck. Both will get you there and carry the load, the lott is just a bit more flexible with the added case capacity.

I don't think anyone that has worked with either round will dispute that 500 @ 2050 or 2150 will work all day every day. It's just the 0.3" longer case gives one more options for powders and bullets. And the added action length is pretty much moot.

Does anyone currently chamber factory 458 win mags? I believe the Ruger and CZ lotts are the only option asside from the big W in reasonably available 45's.

Paul H,

The Remington M798 is chambered in the .458 Win Mag.

CZ still lists the .458 Win Mag as well, and CDNN used to have some left-over Daly's in .458 and .375.

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
not if I use my cessna 210 and I fly and you shoot \\\you will need the drink\\\ but don't worry about it I have got one for you keep scotch in the back and gin in the tanks\\\ we will 150 mph lott the whole sombichin ELE heard with 458 wm factory out of the box ammo\\\ it would only take about 5 passes for you to puck that good idea right out of your head\\\ but just love the thought my kinda action

Done it off the top of a hummer and off the side of UH1D, although, that was with auto fire iron sighted weapons... A scoped rifle off the side of a helo flying map of the earth, that sounds like a challenge...

John

More bang and punch are better up to a point, and ample data attest that that point has not yet been reached at 0.458" bullet diameter, 500 grains weight and 2,150 fps muzzle velocity.

Give me 2,300 fps any day and every day.

Better yet, give me more bullet diameter, more weight and 2,500 fps! That's why I commissioned a .500 A-Square!

Sufficient is good enough nearly all the time. But in my book, more than enough is better, because there are times when sufficient is not good enough.

I can translate that for those interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
CZ still lists the .458 Win Mag as well, and CDNN used to have some left-over Daly's in .458 and .375.

Yer, and one day the .458WM will make a come-back. It'l be in all the gun mags.

quote:

More bang and punch are better up to a point, and ample data attest that that point has not yet been reached at 0.458" bullet diameter, 500 grains weight and 2,150 fps muzzle velocity.

Give me 2,300 fps any day and every day.

If more bang and punch are better why not go with the 460 Wby or 450 Rigby. Either one will smoke the Lott at lower pressure.

DR B

Hello,
Several years ago, well experienced hunters, guides, etc. in Alaska cautioned on using the 460Weatherby caliber class for bears due to the severe recoil and recovery time between shots. Bears,black or grizz/brown, can sprint very quickly for short distances and very little time between shots! I would imagine with lots of practice one can learn to deal with it, but if such an extra powerful caliber is used for just "shoot'n" fine, but having used both the 460 and the 458WM/Lott both require one important feature-you gotta hit the right spot and probably more than once. 458Lott, with practice, will take out anything on this planet I would think.

Well just got back from a 10 day fishing trip.

Thank you Mr Richard Harland and what a pleasure to have you on board I have heard a lot of good things from you. I will look into the load. Mauritz Coetzee also advices the 458WM over the Lott but with 450gr bullets instead of 500gr.

I have shot a Lott off hand and was pleasantly surprized that the recoil was not as bad as what I was expecting. I actually fired a couple of more shots with it with permission of the owner and also checked how quickly I could fire off 2 shots as well. All I can say is that I fell in love with the caliber.

I'm still leaning very strong towards the Lott and it makes more sense as well. But this will stay and be a open sight rifle only.

quote:

458Lott, with practice, will take out anything on this planet I would think.

The 45-70 will take out anything on this planet.

But that was not the point. Their is a group of people on AR that think that the Lott kills like the Hammer of Thor and that the 458wm will bounce of a Whitetail. No animal on the planet will know the diffrence when shot by the same bullet at 100fps less velocity~!!!

DR B

I wouldn't think of you as a wimp. With my CZ458 Lott it recoils 73 ft lbs. The most I have shot my Lott is only about 8 times streight.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
Well just got back from a 10 day fishing trip.

Thank you Mr Richard Harland and what a pleasure to have you on board I have heard a lot of good things from you. I will look into the load. Mauritz Coetzee also advices the 458WM over the Lott but with 450gr bullets instead of 500gr.

I have shot a Lott off hand and was pleasantly surprized that the recoil was not as bad as what I was expecting. I actually fired a couple of more shots with it with permission of the owner and also checked how quickly I could fire off 2 shots as well. All I can say is that I fell in love with the caliber.

I'm still leaning very strong towards the Lott and it makes more sense as well. But this will stay and be a open sight rifle only.

I like the 458 Win mag. Yes it now can be loaded to near the origanal advertised velosity. The Lott can be loaded to the same velosity with less preshure. This reduses the chabce of stickey bolt lift in the elivated temps of Africa. I live in Fort Worth Texas and it seldom gets over 113 so I don't know about the "heat" in Africa but when it does I go into the shade and a cold beverage. The game can live anouther day.
Bill

With my CZ 458 Lott I shoot the 500gr solid at 2358FPS
I don't think the 458 can shoot it that fast

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

quote:

More bang and punch are better up to a point, and ample data attest that that point has not yet been reached at 0.458" bullet diameter, 500 grains weight and 2,150 fps muzzle velocity.

Give me 2,300 fps any day and every day.

If more bang and punch are better why not go with the 460 Wby or 450 Rigby. Either one will smoke the Lott at lower pressure.

DR B

For the simple reason that if I want more than the Lott, I will go up in caliber to the .500.

quote:

For the simple reason that if I want more than the Lott, I will go up in caliber to the .500.

MR

If I thought the 458wm was not enough rifle for any animal I would go up in caliber to the .500.

DR B

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
With my CZ 458 Lott I shoot the 500gr solid at 2358FPS
I don't think the 458 can shoot it that fast

No one wants it to.

I've got one of each on order.One that should arrive next week.I will probably prefer the one that I can handle better with full loads and that is more accurate.I loaded a dummy round yesterday and was impressed just by looking at the 458 Win Mag cartridge and the Swift-A-Frame 500gr bullet that I seated (Redding die) and crimped with the Lee factory crimp die.[URL= ]458WM[/URL]

fivebigbores,

Very nice read.