Folks, we've arrived at Fantasy Land, y'all can get off the train now!

If we're serious about shooting an elk (or moose) at 1000 yards across a canyon, then I'm off that train here and now!

However, I am serious about the thought of picking up some 500 TSX's in the spring. With a B.C.of "only" .412, and pushed out the muzzle at 2300 fps (quite doable) from my .458 (LongCOL) seated at 3.78", that's a realistic load for any size moose to 350 - 400 yards and still get some bullet expansion. Energy wise, that's 2369 ft-lbs at 500 -- which gets us into Fantasy Land again!

But I don't subscribe to the idea of KE being the dominant factor as concerns terminal effect in Big Bores. Cross-sectional area, momentum and S.D. shouldn't be ignored along with expansion and weight retained. Of course, bullet placement should close the door to Fantasy Land and lock it IF we intend to be realistic about shooting large game under real-life hunting conditions beyond 300 - 400 yards.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I can only pack 1 rifle at a time. So I've needed a rifle I can do more than one thing with .
That's why I shot lots of 300 and 350 gr bullets in my 458s.
I'de love to have an expanding bullet in 458 that weighed in at around 400 gr. And had a g1 bc of .4.
Higher would be better of course.
I don't need to be hunting dangerous game to need a 458. I might just want it with in case.
Never know what a guy might bump into.
A single load option would be fine.

So , Really, what we could really use is a high bc 350 - 400 gr .458 bullet that we can kick out at 2500- 2600+ fps. That puts it up there with a 168 gr 308 from a 20" barreled 308 Win.
Not what could be called cutting edge ballistics as far as modern long range rounds. But totally sufficient for most big game hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Aw, shucks, Gustavo just burst my bubble ...
Back to reality.
I'll be needing a spotter to call my shots for me ...

Rip ...

Always serving THE MISSION sir!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:


...and who cares about shots beyond 200 y 50 Yards when hunting DG?

There. Fixed it for you!!!

Gotcha!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
The original Barnes X .458 bullets had higher b.c.'s. The 300gr was 0.34 and the 350gr was 0.39. Better than the current TSX 300gr and 350gr which are 0.23 and 0.27 respectively. Worked just fine on game.

BCs by Barnes at that time, as well as many others (if not the whole industry) were...well, you know... just plain BS.

99.99% of those value were never flight-tested for velocity decay, the real and only serious way to do it besides ToF measurement (Doppler radar, chronos, mics...etc.)

All those "vintage" BCs were not only super optimistic, but wrong as hell, and the values were just derived following the form-pattern formulas based off the old Dupont charts.

Basically, good for nothing. Now, in this time and age of Long Range, most companies have to put money and effort to do it right...people is not stupid any longer.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I do think 4sixteen is definitely into something .
The big reason for smaller carts than a 45 caliber rifle cart . Was greater range/lower trajectory and less recoil.
As he is accomplishing his goal from a 20" barreled hunting rifle. I say he has a spectacular point.

For normal hunting a person could have either 350gn TTSX in the magazine or 330gn GSC in the magazine under the MTH in a chamber. Maybe that would be nice for cross-canyon elk.

Of course, for simplicity in Africa. the MTH chamber-feed would not be necessary out to 400 yards, practically speaking.

True, all that, and I have the same .416 Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan as 4sixteen has shown,
plus a stainless laminate factory Ruger No.1 with 24" barrel in .416 Ruger.
4sixteen has indeed found a profound bullet for the .416 Ruger,
though I had picked the TTSX and GSC HV like 416Tanzan.
That little .416 Ruger will do everything that a .416 Rigby Ruger No.1 used to do for me on water buffalo at 50 yards
and fallow deer at 342 yards, at the Tennessee game farm, with the old .416/350-gr Barnes X-bullet at 2700 fps.

But, the .416 Ruger is just not as interesting as a .458 WIN is to some of us.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
The original Barnes X .458 bullets had higher b.c.'s. The 300gr was 0.34 and the 350gr was 0.39. Better than the current TSX 300gr and 350gr which are 0.23 and 0.27 respectively. Worked just fine on game.

BCs by Barnes at that time, as well as many others (if not the whole industry) were...well, you know... just plain BS.

Some say the change in BC's at Barnes came with the secant ogives on the TSX & TTSX, instead of the old tangent ogives on older X-bullets.
Barnes claimed the secant ogives improved accuracy.
I don't think all the wide cannelures on the sides of the newer bullets improved the BC's either.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Folks, we've arrived at Fantasy Land, y'all can get off the train now!

OK, but we can get back on the next one coming along the tracks, whenever.

If we're serious about shooting an elk (or moose) at 1000 yards across a canyon, then I'm off that train here and now!

Yep a 300-400-yard-usable .458 WIN is certainly ethical enough.

However, I am serious about the thought of picking up some 500 TSX's in the spring. With a B.C.of "only" .412,

That is a great choice, brings out the full potential of the .458 WIN, which can certainly beat a SAAMI .458 Lott with that bullet.

and pushed out the muzzle at 2300 fps (quite doable)

Yes indeed. The 500-gr TSX was a bugholer at 2250 fps and topped out at 2342 fps MV from my 24-7/8" CZ barrel on Chimera WinCZechster, at 3.780" COL with AA-2230: 6090 ft-lbs of KE at muzzle.

from my .458 (LongCOL) seated at 3.78", that's a realistic load for any size moose to 350 - 400 yards and still get some bullet expansion. Energy wise, that's 2369 ft-lbs at 500 -- which gets us into Fantasy Land again!

But I don't subscribe to the idea of KE being the dominant factor as concerns terminal effect in Big Bores. Cross-sectional area, momentum and S.D. shouldn't be ignored along with expansion and weight retained. Of course, bullet placement should close the door to Fantasy Land and lock it IF we intend to be realistic about shooting large game under real-life hunting conditions beyond 300 - 400 yards.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

The 450-gr TSX at 2450 fps and 3.680" COL is also a great bullet, and gets right near 6000 ft-lbs ME, 5997 ft-lbs.
A little less recoil, and the BC of 0.369 is not bad.

The 400-gr GSC HV with BC of 0.372 at 2500 fps loses some of its charm by comparison.

I plan to hBN the 500-gr TSX and see if I can find a bughole load for it at about 2300 fps in the 25" Shilen barrel.

If not, then the 450-grain TSX at 2448 fps MV and 0.33 MOA for 3 shots will have to do.
2 grains more AA-2230 showed diminishing returns with only 2469 fps MV.

In the beginning, I thought a 400-grainer at 2400 fps from the .458 WIN was the end-all in the load quest.
450-grainer at 2450 fps from a 25" barrel is my current favorite.
Until the next train pulls into the station.

Now we have the 450-grain TSX at 2450 fps.
Halleluja!

It also pairs up very well with 450-grain FN solids from North Fork (copper) and CEB (brass).
I generally do not like the funny banding pattern on many of the CEB bullets, generally designed for shortCOL loads.
They work great for SAAMI .458 WIN.
However, the MTH copper bullets with long nose projection and "seal-tight band" are right up the alley of the .458 WIN LongCOL,
if only CEB would make such a bullet in .458 caliber ...

Rip ...

CEB:

"The 260gr .458 diameter Maximus can be used in .458 caliber rifles, especially the 458 SOCOM, .458 LOTT or .458 Winchester. This is a hollow point hunting bullet with an exceptional BC and incredible terminal performance."

"Exceptional BC?" Exceptionally bad BC of 0.200?
Perfect for the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

But I can get a custom bullet made, a .458/412-grainer with BC = 0.780, with MV of only 2450 fps, your .416-cal is easily whooped, from muzzle to infinity.

I find the claim of a BC of .780 for a 45 caliber bullet of only 412 grain to be dreaming.
The 388, 300 grain Sierra MK is .768 mass is a big part of BC per caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

But I can get a custom bullet made, a .458/412-grainer with BC = 0.780, with MV of only 2450 fps, your .416-cal is easily whooped, from muzzle to infinity.

I find the claim of a BC of .780 for a 45 caliber bullet of only 412 grain to be dreaming.
The 388, 300 grain Sierra MK is .768 mass is a big part of BC per caliber.

Mass is sectional density (SD) for this SWAG.
BC depends on sectional density and form factor, primarily, does it not?
412-grain .458-caliber bullet has SD of 0.2805871.
340-grain .416-caliber bullet has SD of 0.2806685.

OK, not quite equal. But to 3 decimal they are bot 0.281 for SD.
413-grain .458-caliber bullet has SD of 0.2812683.
Also rounds to SD = 0.281

So I can definitively equal or exceed the SD of the 340-gr/.416 it with a 413-gr/.458 bullet.
Well, EXCUSE ME, please.

Why not go whole hog and make it a 414-grainer, or whatever it takes to get to greater than 0.800 BC?
We already know that the Lehigh Defense 582-grain/.458 brass, long&pointy bullet can have a BC of 1.105, with length of 2.414".
In copper it could be shorter, with same SD and BC.

The CEB copper MTH V15 340-gr/.416 has BC of 0.780 and is 1.793" long.

The "hypothetical" copper CEB MTH "X15" 413-gr/.458 should have BC of 0.780 and length of about 1.974", based on same SD and scaled-up, form of .458/.416 = 1.10096.
1.10096 x 1.793" = 1.974".
That is an over estimation of length for only 413 grains of .458 bullet of identical shape to the V15,
but bullet weight and shape could be manipulated to fit pretty closely into that ball park.
Or make it out of brass with an aluminum "silvertip" ballistic tip.

Rip ...

Ron,

"412-grain .458-caliber bullet has SD of 0.2805871.
340-grain .416-caliber bullet has SD of 0.2806685."

True. However, the 34o grain 416 scales up to a 453 grain .458 and so could be given a higher form factor.

For the same forum factor a bigger bore allows for a higher SD bullet to be used and a smaller bore allows for a smaller SD to be used.

Thee bullets, all flat ended cylinders an inch long and .25, .5 and 1 inch diameter and all 1 inch long. All have the same SD. However, forming a long ogive on that 1 inch long and 1 inch diameter bullet would be a bit a bit hard However, we can make that 1 inch diameter cylinder 4 inches long and thus 4 times it diameter like the one inch long 25 calibre but it will have 4 times the SD. Making the 25 calibre 4 inches long will give you a bullet that is a piece of wire.

Mike, I am teaching myself this stuff.
I just arrived at a Brass Silvertip (BS) bullet to accomplish 0.800 BC with a 413-grain/.458.

For the copper .458 I just realized by square-cube law, it would have to be about 462 grains if copper and simply scaled up by linear dimensions.

A 413-grain/.458 with SD of 0.281 and BC of 0.800 is still possible, eh?

I am going to say it is 1.974" long and see what twist it takes ... wait for it ...

It is really simple The bigger the bore the higher the SD that can be used and the smaller the bore the lower the SD that can be used.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
It is really simple The bigger the bore the higher the SD that can be used and the smaller the bore the lower the SD that can be used.

OK.
Put another way, a direct linear scale up for form factor,
X-factor on diameter and length,
gets X-squared on cross-section,
and X-cubed on bullet volume, roughly speaking.
So bullet material has to be lightened to keep the weight and SD down, for same form of larger caliber/diameter and length.
Elementary.

The BSB: A 413-gr/.458 Brass Silvertip Bullet of 1.974" length at 2500 fps requires 1:16.4" twist,
at 2400 fps it requires 1:16.1" twist.

A 462-grain Copper VLD of 1.974" length at 2400 fps requires 1:16.5" twist

A 450-grain Copper VLD of 2.000" length at 2450 fps requires 1:16.4" twist, or faster twist.
That is the ideal weight and velocity for a 6000-ft-lbs bullet in the .458 WIN.
Less recoil than with a 6000-ft-lbs 500-grainer.
Ought to be able to shape that 450-grain copper VLD for a 0.800 BC.
SD = 0.3064665 rounded to 0.306.

The suboptimal 413-gr/.458 BSB could still whoop the 340-gr/.416 V15 for retained energy at long range, using the .458 WIN and 1:14" twist.
WINning again.

That will work in a standard 1:14" twist .458 WIN.

And the Ruger No.1 .416 Ruger with 24" barrel is the same OAL as the bolt action with a 20" barrel.
4" more barrel will make the V15 a 2700 fps bullet instead of a 2600 fps bullet.
But it still ain't a .416 Barrett,

The old .408 Chey-Tac bullet made by Jamison/Captech International was only about 300-grains, and they called it the "Battlefield Dominator" bullet.
For hunting humans at close to medium range, not for anti-materiel or long range use.
Interesting for comparison ...

Rip ...

Thank you 4sixteen for beating the dead horse of Barnes TSX BC numbers.
Great work for THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
The original Barnes X bullets had sleeker profiles than the current TSX bullets so b.c.'s would have been higher as claimed.

It has been noted repeatedly here that the switch to secant ogive degraded the BC numbers of Barnes monometal copper bullets.
Barnes says it also made their bullets more accurate than they were with ye olde tangent ogive.
That also occurred at the same time they added the multi-cannelures/grooves to the bearing surfaces of the TSX and TTSX, etc.
Those do not seem to be streamlining features either.

Highest b.c. hunting bullets off the shelf in .458 are just the TSX.

Hopefully the GSC HV bullets are not gone.
The 400-gr/.458 had a BC of .372 at 2500 fps, 0.378 at 2050 fps.
The 450-grain HV was even higher: 0.391 at 2400 fps, .400 at 2000 fps, .401 at 1600 fps.
I got those 400-grainers up to 2545 fps MV in a 25" Shilen barrel, once upon a time.
2527 fps was most accurate, an excellent, trouble-free load at only 3.395" COL. That is LongCOL, technically,
but as short as I go with that bullet.

For general purpose including extended range applications no choice but to go with the stubby 0.27 b.c. 350gr TSX at 2600 fps muzzle speed in my .458 WM (which pales in comparison to my 416s with 0.78 b.c. 340gr MTH bullets ).

For sake of THE MISSION let it be noted that 2600 fps with the 350-grain TSX is a bit on the timid side, even with a short-barreled .458 WIN.
With hBN-tumbled 350-grain TSX and COL of 3.440",
2806 fps MV is a good load in my 25" Shilen-barreled .458 WIN LongCOL, with sub-MOA 3-shot accuracy: Bobbarrella!

Rip ...

Checked my arithemetic and Mike was right about the scaled up 340-gr/.416 bullet becoming a 453.7-gr/.458 bullet.
454-grain/.458 rounded to nearest grain.
SD = 0.309

BC = SD/i
i = form factor
i = SD/BC

For the CEB 340-gr/.416 MTH V15:
i = 0.281/0.780 = 0.3603
same as for the BGw 454-gr/.458 VLD-H X-15

The Bubba Gunwerkes 454-gr/.458 VLD-Hunting X-15
will have BC = SD/i = 0.309/0.3603 = 0.858

WINning again, for THE MISSION.

But that bullet may be too heavy to break 2500 fps in the .458 WIN LongCOL with 25" Shilen barrel.
We will try to keep it just under 6000 ft-lbs ME,
so as to keep pressures of the .458 WIN down to the SAAMI, short-throated .458 Lott levels.
Fair is fair.

So how about a knock-off of the .408 Chey-Tac Battlefield Dominator Bullet (BDB):



The BGw 431-gr/.458 VLD-H, X-16, of monometal copper, the NEW Gamefield Dominator Bullet (GDB),
also known as the "GD bullet" by .458 WIN denying "naysayers":
SD = 0.294
form factor = 0.4288
BC = 0.684

431-grain/.458 GD Bullet:
At muzzle KE = 5981 ft-lbs @ 2500 fps
100-yard KE = 5396 ft-lbs @ 2375 fps
200-yard KE = 4859 ft-lbs @ 2253 fps
300-yard KE = 4364 ft-lbs @ 2136 fps
400-yard KE = 3912 ft-lbs @ 2022 fps
500-yard KE = 3497 ft-lbs @ 1912 fps
600-yard KE = 3119 ft-lbs @ 1805 fps
700-yard KE = 2774 ft-lbs @ 1703 fps
800-yard KE = 2464 ft-lbs @ 1605 fps
900-yard KE = 2190 ft-lbs @ 1513 fps
1000-yard KE = 1946 ft-lbs @ 1426 fps.

Now for the timid shoulder, a 413-gr/.458 BSB bullet with BC of 0.780 loafing along at a lower pressure 2500 fps MV ...

Rip ...

I still think it's possible to make a 413-gr/.458 Brass Silvertip to have a BC of 0.780, as described previously, or am I wrong?

That could definitely go over 2500 fps and be gentler for timid shoulders.
Let us see what the KE at muzzle would be for that ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Some say the change in BC's at Barnes came with the secant ogives on the TSX & TTSX, instead of the old tangent ogives on older X-bullets.
Barnes claimed the secant ogives improved accuracy.
I don't think all the wide cannelures on the sides of the newer bullets improved the BC's either.

Obi-Wan,

I did not argue about the improvement or lack of in Barnes' newer design vs. the old one, my point is, and was, all about the real BC value of those pills...because at the time they had NO means to actually flight-test them.

That changed some years ago, in 2015, when Barnes announced the acquisition of a Doppler radar unit.

And...all the radar data they have released so far, never included the big bullets, only the ones used for LR work...so, my bet is all the BCs values for the .458 are still plain BS.

Dopper radar testing is expensive (hundreds of thousands of dollars) which really justifies its use for the logical and sensible applications of LR bullets...not DG rounds.

Gustavo,

That is very interesting.
How have the Doppler-derived BC's compared to the BS-derived BC's of Barnes bullets?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

That is very interesting.
How have the Doppler-derived BC's compared to the BS-derived BC's of Barnes bullets?

Rip ...

Zen Master,

You'll have to forgive me, because I haven't ran the numbers when they published the new Doppler-derived BCs vs. the ones they were advertising back then... I know...shame on me!!

Having said that, what the LR crowd found out, in general terms, once some companies turned over to Doppler, well...(to put it kindly) then saying most deserved a front seat for a firing squad is an understatement !

The story behind BCs is really a passionate one, worth its research, but what a long way we have gone from the days of "form factor" to actual flight testing! Now we can see the light after decades submerged in total darkness.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Some say the change in BC's at Barnes came with the secant ogives on the TSX & TTSX, instead of the old tangent ogives on older X-bullets.
Barnes claimed the secant ogives improved accuracy.
I don't think all the wide cannelures on the sides of the newer bullets improved the BC's either.

Obi-Wan,

I did not argue about the improvement or lack of in Barnes' newer design vs. the old one, my point is, and was, all about the real BC value of those pills...because at the time they had NO means to actually flight-test them.

That changed some years ago, in 2015, when Barnes announced the acquisition of a Doppler radar unit.

And...all the radar data they have released so far, never included the big bullets, only the ones used for LR work...so, my bet is all the BCs values for the .458 are still plain BS.

Dopper radar testing is expensive (hundreds of thousands of dollars) which really justifies its use for the logical and sensible applications of LR bullets...not DG rounds.

Agree, most optimistic BC claims fall way short. Barnes originally tested BC on Olher equipment at 300 yards in an underground tunnel. The farther the spacing the more accurate the BC. Brain Lietz tests BC over a 600 yard spacing and his number are general lower than those tested at Less distance but his are more accurate.

I spent a fair amount of money on higher than normal claimed BC bullets only to be disappointed when shot at long range because the claims were BS.
Up to 300 yards I don’t pay much attention to BC.

Just sticking to scaling up the CEB MTH 340-gr/.416 V15:
The 0.780 BC can be matched with a 413-gr/.458 of brass with a larger hollowpoint capped with an aluminum ballitic tip, to reduce weight.
The BC for that same form becomes 0.858 for the 454-gr/.458 copper monometal hollowpoint of MTH construction.

The 413-gr/.458 at 2500 fps: Brass Silvertip Bullet
Length = 1.974"
Form Factor = 0.3603 (must tune the brass hollowpoint and aluminum tip to match desired weight, length, and drag/"pointiness")
SD = 0.281
BC = 0.780

At muzzle KE = 5731 ft-lbs @ 2500 fps
100-yard KE = 5238 ft-lbs @ 2390 fps
200-yard KE = 4778 ft-lbs @ 2283 fps
300-yard KE = 4352 ft-lbs @ 2179 fps
400-yard KE = 3957 ft-lbs @ 2077 fps
500-yard KE = 3591 ft-lbs @ 1979 fps
600-yard KE = 3253 ft-lbs @ 1884 fps
700-yard KE = 2941 ft-lbs @ 1791 fps
800-yard KE = 2654 ft-lbs @ 1701 fps
900-yard KE = 2392 ft-lbs @ 1615 fps
1000-yard KE = 2157 ft-lbs @ 1534 fps.


It is much simpler to just go heavier and with higher BC, and suck up the recoil, with monometal copper.
The 454-grainer at 2450 fps: Copper Hollowpoint Bullet
Length = 1.974"
Form Factor = 0.3603 (identical to CEB MTH V15)
SD = 0.309
BC = 0.858

At muzzle KE = 6050 ft-lbs @ 2450 fps
100-yard KE = 5571 ft-lbs @ 2351 fps
200-yard KE = 5123 ft-lbs @ 2254 fps
300-yard KE = 4704 ft-lbs @ 2160 fps
400-yard KE = 4313 ft-lbs @ 2069 fps
500-yard KE = 3949 ft-lbs @ 1979 fps
600-yard KE = 3610 ft-lbs @ 1892 fps
700-yard KE = 3295 ft-lbs @ 1808 fps
800-yard KE = 3002 ft-lbs @ 1726 fps
900-yard KE = 2732 ft-lbs @ 1646 fps
1000-yard KE = 2486 ft-lbs @ 1570 fps.

OOPS! Got a little over 6000 ft-lbs at the muzzle,
but 2450 fps is a very realistic velocity for a 454-grainer in the .458 WIN LongCOL with 25" barrel.
2469 fps MV with the hBN-ed 450-grain TSX has happened, at 3.680" COL.

Maybe the 500-grain TSX could have the points sharpened to get weight down to about 450-grains with a ballistic tip pressed into the nose?
No boat tail needed if you get the tip long and pointy enough, with a skinnier tangent ogive.


I gotta go watch Saeed's SELOUS 2018 now.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

Agree, most optimistic BC claims fall way short. Barnes originally tested BC on Olher equipment at 300 yards in an underground tunnel. The farther the spacing the more accurate the B.B. Brain Lietz tests BC over a 600 yard spacing and his number are general lower than those tested at Less distance but his ar3 more accurate.

I spent a fair amount of money on higher than normal claimed BC bullets only to be disappointed when shot at long range because the claims were BS.
Up to 300 yards I don’t pay much attention to BC.

BS-ing with ballistic coefficients can be fun.
The farthest shot I ever took at came was 350 yards in 1986, a Barren Ground Caribou.
About 14 years later I shot that fallow deer at the game farm at lasered 342 yards.

There will not be much guess work with a .458 WIN out to 350 yards, whatever BS I have for a BC.

Low Burris rings for two scopes with same ring spacing on the DSS-2PP,
top scope is 20.8 ounces and 11.6" OAL,
bottomscope is 20.0 ounces and 12.5" OAL:



And a 2.5x20mm Ultralight works in low rings too.

Rip ...

The MRC M1999 PH needs a DSS-2PP mount.
It would allow shorter scopes to be mounted,
yet could still handle this one:





The only recoil stops on the CZ rings used on a PH are when the rings reach the end of the tiny grooves in the integral dovetails.
I never did like that, and now know what to do about it.
If a PH with .375 H&H boltface and .505 Gibbs box length could be had, some really long and pointy bullets could be used in a 1:10" twist barrel, for a .458 WIN LongCOL.

Rip ...

quote:

If a PH with .375 H&H boltface and .505 Gibbs box length could be had, some really long and pointy bullets could be used in a 1:10" twist barrel, for a .458 WIN LongCOL.

Basically, we're in wildcat range. So if using the .532" case-head, one might as well use the Ruger basic case. 458/416Ruger would work pretty nicely.

Nothing wrong with an extra 10 grains capacity in a wildcat spec 458.
Nothing wrong with a 416 Ruger in a wildcat spec 416 either.

Someday when I get old I think I'm going to like a little 416 for walk-around.

This is when BC matters


This is how I discovered BC claims that seemed too good to be true, were BS

jwp475,

Surely you can do some 'splainin' about that steel target, for THE MISSION.
What rifle, scope, cartridge, bullet, handloading tips?
What were you expecting and what did you learn?
How was the wind?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
This is when BC matters


This is how I discovered BC claims that seemed too good to be true, were BS

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:

Still dreaming about making the .458 WM into a .416 long range performer??
I have no pressing need for the custom .458 VLD-Hunting bullet right now,
but just knowing it is possible with a custom bullet warms the cockles of my cold heart.
CEB was quite obliging for three previous custom runs I was in on.
Surely there is a way with them or Lehigh, or GSC?

Just log onto the CEB website, get a few boxes of 340gr .416 MTH V15 bullets for your .416 Ruger and call it good. The .458 WM just ain't up to it with off the shelf bullets.
However, the 450-grain TSX at 2450 fps, or the 500-grain TSX at 2300 fps are easy to do in a .458 WIN LongCOL with 25" barrel.
The CZ 550 Magnum is a six-shot magazine repeater with those bullets and easily sub-MOA.
Their BC's are none too shabby for 400-yard work
which covers all my big game shooting up to now,
and most likely forever.

You have made me very happy with my 20" Hawkeye and 24" No.1 in .416 Ruger.
Thanks for pointing out that bullet,
which I could also use equally well in a 26"-barreled .416 Taylor (1:14" twist), .416 Rem.Mag.-24" (1:14" twist), .416 Barnes Supreme-24" (1:12" twist), .416 Dakota-24" (1:12" twist), .416 Rigby-24" (1:14" twist), and even a .416 Barrett-32" (1:12" twist).
I also have a .408 Chey-Tac-26" (1:13" twist) and a .408/.338 Lopwah aka 10.4 Spiridon Moor-25" 91:13" twist) to play with,
I size down off-the-shelf .416-caliber bullets to shoot in the .408's, including the 350-grain Barnes TTSX,
but would hate to wipe a seal-tight band off of the MTH. Surely CEB must make some .408-cal.

I just never considered that light of a .416-caliber VLD-Hunting bullet for long-range work in a .416 when I have other options
including the Barrett M99 .416 Barrett with 1:12" twist and 32" barrel length
which makes a 400-grainer go faster than 3200 fps.

However, the 340-grain CEB-MTH-V15 would be a better "Battlefield Dominator Bullet" in the .416 Barrett than the 305-grain Jamison was in the .408 Chey-Tac.
Nice to know, for THE MISSION.
It is indeed inspirational for a long and pointy single-loader for the .458 WIN LongCOL, launched at 2500 fps with BC of about 0.800.
Very possible.

Rip

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

If a PH with .375 H&H boltface and .505 Gibbs box length could be had, some really long and pointy bullets could be used in a 1:10" twist barrel, for a .458 WIN LongCOL.

Basically, we're in wildcat range. So if using the .532" case-head, one might as well use the Ruger basic case. 458/416Ruger would work pretty nicely.
Remember that I was forced into that .458/.416 Ruger to clean up a Whitworth MkX factory .458 WIN that had rings in the chamber.
That reduced the magazine capacity to two rounds instead of three and mucked the formerly faultless feeding.
Surely it would have been better in a Ruger M77 Hawkeye action, which even allows COL of 3.395" to function through it, and holds three-down.
But adding 10-grains of case capacity to the .458 WIN (or the .458/.416 Ruger) is easily accomplished by just adding 0.240" to the COL.
A 1.000"-long .458"-diameter cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water.
Nothing wrong with an extra 10 grains capacity in a wildcat spec 458.
Nothing wrong with a 416 Ruger in a wildcat spec 416 either.
True.
Someday when I get old I think I'm going to like a little 416 for walk-around.

416Tanzan,

Are you going to be using a 4-point walker with that .416 Ruger?

Rip ...

Above might be considerably lightened with a synthetic stock, and a slimmer barrel with a bigger bore hole.
Maximum COL to work through the magazine is at least 4.000".
That would be for a .458 WIN LongCOL with a VLD-MTH-type "CUSTOM" bullet.
Of course just single-loading them in Bobbarrella is probably preferrable.
Since the 3.780" COL works so well in her +3.8" box.
Having a +4.0" box is not so important.



Steel rod in grip of a walnut stock is a good idea on a .458 WIN LongCOL too.
For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
jwp475,

Surely you can do some 'splainin' about that steel target, for THE MISSION.
What rifle, scope, cartridge, bullet, handloading tips?
What were you expecting and what did you learn?
How was the wind?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
This is when BC matters


This is how I discovered BC claims that seemed too good to be true, were BS

Rip ...

338 Lapua 300 SMK 3.860” COL 5X25X56 S&B PMll wind 2.5 MPH right to left 2790 FPS. Rock Creek 5R Carbon Wrapped barrel 30”

jwp475,

Getting you to confess a powder charge is like pulling teeth.
We are mostly grownups here who know how to work up a load from submaximal ...
Did you find the claimed G1 BC of 0.768 to be close to reality?
Scaled up to .458-cal by a factor of cubing the ratio of .458/.338:
The Sierra 746-grain/.458 Match King is not going to cut it in the .458 WIN LongCOL with 1:10" twist.

Sierra MatchKing Bullets 338 Caliber (338 Diameter) 300 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail
Diameter 0.338 Inches
Quantity Please select
Grain Weight 300 Grains
Bullet Style Hollow Point Boat Tail
Lead Free No
G1 Ballistic Coefficient 0.768
Cannelure No
Bullet Coating Non-Coated
Bullet Caliber 338 Caliber
Sectional Density 0.375
Recommended Twist Rate 1 in 10" or Faster

Above specs are from MidwayUSA, no length listed,
but it looks like the .338/300gr SMK bullet is about 1.700" long, listed here:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/b...lengths.shtml#Sierra

If so, the .458/746-gr SMK would be only 2.304" long, if made the same from thin-jacketed lead.
That's doo-able!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Scaled up to .458-cal by a factor of cubing the ratio of .458/.338:
The Sierra 746-grain/.458 Match King is not going to cut it in the .458 WIN LongCOL with 1:10" twist.

Ron,

I don't think many people are aware of this scaling. Also the SD of the scaled up bullet from 338 to 458 would equal the SD of a 406 grain 338. (338/458)² X 746

Mike,

Are you trying to confuse me?

i= SD/BC
BC = SD/i

300-gr/.338 SMK:
SD = 0.375
BC = 0.768
i = SD/BC = 0.4882812
Jacketed bullet length = 1.700" assumed.
At 2700 fps, twist of 1:11.7 or faster required, so 1:10" is good.

746-gr/.458 SMK:
SD = 0.508
i = 0.4882812
BC = 1.040
Jacketed bullet length of 2.304" assumed.
At 1100 fps, twist of 1:10.1" or faster required.
Supersonic would be better with this bullet.
At 2100 fps, twist of 1:14" will do it, but that ain't gonna happen with the mighty .458 WIN LongCOL.

I was wrong, 1:10" twist will do just fine for the 746-gr/.458 SMK. As long as it is going a bit faster than 1100 fps MV.
For subsonic use, a twist of 1:9" would be better.
There sure is much that could be done with a 1:10" twist .458 WIN LongCOL however, right on the cusp of Mach 1 or faster MV.
With 746-grainer, somewhere below 2000 fps probably.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mike,

Are you trying to confuse me?

No.

SD (for bullet comparisons) is based on the square of the diameters and scaling (up or down) on the cube of the diameters.

So (308/277)² x 130 gives a bullet weight in 30 calibre with same SD as 130 grain 277 bullet. (308/277)³ X 130 gives us a scaled up 277/130 grain to 30 calibre.

Bottom line is the bigger bore the great the SD that can be used and conversely the smaller the bore the lower the SD that can be used.

Mike,
Thanks for help with THE MISSION.

It must be your grammar and typos that throw me off. I understand you speak Australian and English is a second language for you.
Or maybe you type English with an Australian accent?

Anyway, I do not like your shortcuts to ratios,
prefer to think stepwise like this:

X is the ratio of larger bullet diameter divided by smaller bullet diameter.
To maintain same form, scale up the smaller bullet volume by X-cubed, scale up the bullet length by X, manipulate density of bullet for weight/mass and subsequent SD.
For same density bullets, the bullet weight of the smaller-diameter bullet is simply scaled up by X-cubed to give weight of larger-diameter bullet.
Bullet cross-sectional area is scaled up by X-squared, but not bothered with except included by calculation of SD, a ratio without units.
Bigger-diameter bullet has a much higher SD and BC if made in same form and of same density as the smaller-diameter bullet.

If both bullets have same form factor (i)
and i = SD/BC,
then BC = SD/i
for BS aka SWAG BC numbers.


Rip ...

Ron,

It is not just speaking Australian instead of English.

As I often do I have not been to bed yet and it is about 5.15pm Sunday here o getting tired. In fact I am heading to bed now.

When I am fresher I try and type in American given the audience on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:


Still dreaming about making the .458 WM into a .416 long range performer??

Just log onto the CEB website, get a few boxes of 340gr .416 MTH V15 bullets for your .416 Ruger and call it good. The .458 WM just ain't up to it with off the shelf bullets.

My last 416 Rem mag would have luved this bullet .
1 in 10 twist McGowan barrel . 22" length plus muzzle brake. Built on a CZ550 Magnum action.