I am going to get some Hornady .458 WinMag brass to dedicate to cast-bullet loading,
since stradling is doing all the jacketed bullet work for me.

Seems I went at this backwards, ought to start much slower.
I will try 20.0 grains of IMR-4759 and 26.0 grains of AA-5744,
first of all with the Berry's 409-grainers since I am stuck with them and have to get rid of them somehow.
They work well as smokeless loads in the short-throated 45-70, at Elmer Keith velocity (1800 fps).
Maybe at low speed they will be able to start spinning in the rifling of the .458 WinMag
instead of skidding after a long throat jump?

Whether subsonic or supersonic it will be fun to plink with a .458 WinMag,
if I can get something like 1"-2" groups at 50 yards.

Accuracy good enough for A-Square is good enough for me.

The long throat of the .458 WinMag is the source of its mojo:
Cram it full of fast-burning powder and you get higher velocity AND lower than expected pressure from the short bastard!



Reminds me of Jon Snow, King of the North,
Short Man with a Longclaw!

Throat of the .458 WinMag: Longclaw



This is a mnemonic for remembering what makes the .458 WinMag work so well:
Short bastard, Longclaw.
Short cartridge, Longthroat.

Jon Snow was stabbed in the heart and brought back to life,
just like this thread has resurrected the .458 WinMag despite Atkinson's mortal blows, the blowhard!
The .458 WinMag is actually the Bastard of James Watts,
who was a Short Man with a Long Cartridge, etc.

Rip
.

Your tougher than me Stradling.

throw the 2 5 s out and see what you get

makes me think with a 30 min soak in the sun we did not equilibrate all the bullets to full temp

we saw some 5 fps dif in the first run as well

to get hard data one might wish shoot for a larger statistical sample

but that would require $200 in bullets so poor boys have poor ways

good method might include an oven and a longer soak time

hot enough that they are nasty to load should be adequate for african field testing

I suggest

once we rebuild the 798 and harden it for recoil we will shoot one more run of the 550 s

did not break any fingers

have andersons-- he went first-- to thank for that

took a firm grip

CTF if I was early today , well I am not now

TII = 25/44 = 0.57, almost as good as the 0.50 of H4350 in the .375 Weatherby,
and better than most.
I sure won't badmouth a ball powder in the .458 WinMag, if that ball powder is AA-2230.

Rip
.

that's what we settled on

and why in both cases I reported <30 fps

got in the 25 fps on both runs with 3 guns

only one gun in this last run

also less [ for sure no] compression on this run

now I think I know why we got a few 5 fps reads in the first run the compressed powder may not have had adequate time to come to full internal temperature

but guessing so

if you want to shoot 550 s 2,150 fast-- recommend you pack around a 10.5 pound gun

even so you are going to take a bit of a thumping -- like it or not

I'm with Atkinson on this. The 458 needs more.

If i were using a Hawkeye action for 458, it would be a 458 AccRel.
Done. Better. Unassailable. It should have its own thread, even though I would probably settle for a 416 Ruger. It's hard to pass on a 416 Ruger.

Just more .458 WinMag versus .458 Lott/.458AccRel baloney:


The .458 WinMag will ride the dragon just like Aunt Dani!
Little Cousin Arya calls shotgun on that ride.





Rip
.

Neat thread- now put a new cannelure on the 500gr bullet and load it .25 out. Add more powder and see what velocity you get?. Most .458 win mag throats and mag wells will accommodate that. Bet you'll see over 2275 fps!

When dealing with bears I prefer a 9mm handgun over a sword
And my standard 458 over a Lott

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
When dealing with bears I prefer a 9mm handgun over a sword
And my standard 458 over a Lott

Wisdom.
I read about that 9mm kill.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
A case of diminishing returns, more powder, more blast, more recoil and ever decreasing gains in velocity..... the rules of ballistics in action

All of which can be accomplished more efficiently in a .458 WinMag with either 3.4", 3.6", or 3.8"-long box.
Pick your poison.

Note that the .458 WinMag loaded to 3.600" or 3.800" COL will not crowd the box magazine width as much as the longer-brassed ones,
and it will feed better.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
A case of diminishing returns, more powder, more blast, more recoil and ever decreasing gains in velocity..... the rules of ballistics in action

All of which can be accomplished more efficiently in a .458 WinMag with either 3.4", 3.6", or 3.8"-long box.
Pick your poison.

Note that the .458 WinMag loaded to 3.600" or 3.800" COL will not crowd the box magazine width as much as the longer-brassed ones,
and it will feed better.

Rip
.

RIP--I enjoy your posts but there is a bit of wishful thinking in this last one that needs to be discussed. I appreciate that you are trying to imitate the Creedmore shuffle, a worthy dance but with some limits.

If limited to 3.4" magazines, then the 458 AccRel will do the Lott-level loads just fine, but the WinMag won't.

If using 3.8" magazines, then you might be trying to load the WinMag bullets up to an additional 0.4" inches out of the neck, way too much IMO. Of course, the AccRel is the same case length, so whatever final COL fits the magazine best will be the same for the WM and the AccRel.

There is no gainsaying that Jeffeoso's 458AccRel is the real answer to short-case 458s, unless you want to use a Rigby bolt-face.

quote:

overweight girl trying to get into a pair of jeans that is two sizes to small

quite well put

need some 3 inch brass

I prefer to think of the 458 WM as the slim, trim girl with a heavy Top who just gets the job done. How can you not love that?
Glass half full kind of guy here.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I prefer to think of the 458 WM as the slim, trim girl with a heavy Top who just gets the job done. How can you not love that?
Glass half full kind of guy here.

quite well put

All of these (see pic of dummies below) fit the throat of a standard SAAMI .458 WinMag.
The only one needing a cannelure added being the old Barnes X-Bullet of first iteration,
a .458/500-grainer that is very long and pointy.
It's the bottom one below, with 3.797" COL.
That bullet is 1.645".
There is a 0.348" length of that bullet base inside the neck.
That is 76 % of caliber.
Two-thirds of caliber (67 %) is enough.
More than a 500 Jeffery grips its bullet with.







You know, it is crazy what some of the reloading manuals post for cast bullet loads in the .458 WinMag.
I was using a starting level load surmised from a manual and getting about 1800 to 1900 fps.
Top level loads in that book would be 2170 fps with a 405-grain cast bullet, and 2022 fps with a 460-grain cast bullet.
They were obviously just popping them off for velocity and pressure reading.
No regard to skidding in the rifling.
They would have to be using a SAAMI .458 WinMag,
no short-throated ".458 Win.Mag.Special" allowed, unspecified in such manuals.

So I am starting really low, about 1100-1200 fps I hope.
Will add powder up to 1600 fps.
That seems to be a number that keeps popping up in regards to cast bullets.
Even around 1800 fps, some of the bullets spun true, so the velocity barrier might be pretty close below that.

Yep, kicking myself over having three .458 Lotts on hand.
Two of them are conversions, mutilations, of .458 WinMags.
One came from the factory born that way, an innocent rifle with a birth defect.
I'll take care of that one properly.
The two mutilated ones are going to get corrective surgery to be returned to .458 WinMag.
It can be done.
It's better than sucking my thumb about it and trying to justify the .458 Lott.
I can get 6 + 1 in a CZ, slick, Rigby-length, 9.0 pounds unloaded. Close to 10.0 lbs with a full magazine.
That will help with recoil, mostly for the first shot of a volley of 7.
Maybe 4 + 1 in a Pre-'64 M70, H&H-length. It could be as light as 7.0 lbs in a texture-painted Brown Precision Pounder.
I'll settle for 3 + 1 in any Mauser or M70 or M77 30-06-length, about 8.0 pounds in synthetic or 8.5 pounds in walnut.

Rip
.

ALF

With the 3-inch brass -- same girl -- just big gal pants

Well you can load using either black powder or that bulky south African stuff and get low and slow

May get it up a bit more big frame corn feed gal can cook

With the 550 bullet 2,150 and the slim trim aa 2230 go juice she is light still quick can if she needs to still haul a load just a little crowded in the sports car so long as you don’t need to drive more than 2,150

'''After all that’s just what we been checking this summer on the 458 and we get it on 8 rifles'''

That is the 550

but not the 500 or the 480 or the 450 ALL FIT FINE ALL GO 2,200 FAST

There is extra space at 400 monolithic Barnes --REV IT UP TO 2,350 FPS-- that will make your .416 less significant if not altogether obsolete

Extra --she won’t short stroke you and she will not nickel and dime you to death

Thinking all American

take the 240 grain Woodleigh bullet load it up in the 30-06
Drive it at 2150 [pg. 100 in the Woodleigh load manual published in 2014]

That right there will kill some stuff
Match it up with your 458 watts short at 500 grain hornady over aa 2230 producing 2,150

And everything shoots the same trajectory you now have got a matched-up package

Take em out and shoot em in on two or three leg sticks enough to where you can put five in a paper plate at 50-100-150 and then 200 yards
If you find the recoil a bit of a challenge at 200 with either one

Why go faster-- why go bigger --you may do better by adding about one pound to one or both rifles

DON’T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED IT

There is not a German ever born or even now alive

that can run with two yanks teamed up like that
And dam few English either

Much less the scabbed up 450 NE mucked up with a belt needing a premium custom long action and other south African work around strategy’s just so we can run a group of powders we can’t get don’t want and no one even needs

Thinks that’s at the bottom of what you African guys ARE fight the 458 battle with
It’s the bulky powder stupid- not the 458-win mag [to quote a politician]

Or one could just say-- it’s the economy of the 458 watts short-- that spread it at large in the world
That’s pretty much were you are going to find it
Get those African gals off the corn and feed em some protein
There is a lot of beauty underneath all the oversize pants

GOLDIE LOCKS

NOT TOO BIG NOT TOO SMALL
NOT TOO HARD NOT TOO SOFT
NOT TOO COLD NOT TOO HOT
NOT TOO FAST NOT TOO SLOW

JUST RIGHT FOR THE BEAR, BUFFALO, AND ELEPHANT FAMILY

FIVE DOWN ONE IN THE TUBE

NOT TOO HEAVY NOT TOO LIGHT

NOT TO PRICEY IN FACT JUST RIGHT

GREAT NAME FOR MY NEW 458

GOLDIE LOCKS

QUITE THE LOVELY LITTLE GAL

WHEN YOU THINK IT THROUGH

TEAM HER UP WITH HER BATTLE HARDENED OLDER SISTER

MISS 30-06 AND WALA

YOU GOT YOURSELF A PAIR OF BEAUTY QUEENS STRUTTING DOWN THE STREET

STOPPING EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING WITHIN 200 YARDS DEAD IN HIS TRACKS

ANYWHERE ANYTIME ANYTHING

ANY SHOT YOU WANT

JUST

THE JUST PERFECT SHOT

MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A HOT SHOT

ALL YOU WILL NEED TO DO IS FOLLOW ALONG WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD

AND DO YOUR PART

IF YOU'RE MAN ENOUGH

AND WITH THOSE 2

WELL YOU JUST MAY BE ABLE TO GET ER DONE

NOT TOO HARD-- ON YOU --OR YOUR CREDIT CARD

WHEN YOU THINK IT THROUGH

quote:

I'll settle for 3 + 1 in any Mauser or M70 30-06-length, about 8.0 pounds in synthetic or 8.5 pounds in walnut.

Welcome to the Ruger Hawkeye.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
With the 3-inch brass -- same girl -- just big gal pants

quite well put

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I'll settle for 3 + 1 in any Mauser or M70 or M77 30-06-length, about 8.0 pounds in synthetic or 8.5 pounds in walnut.

Welcome to the Ruger Hawkeye.

Yes, absolutely, just careless of me to omit the M77. I fixed it above.

Rip
.

Like you, I enjoy shooting the big boys! A favorite load of mine is the Speer 350 gr bullet seated over 70 grs 4198, sparked by a CCI 350 magnum primer. This load chrony's 2600 fps and it is not unusual to see one hole groups at 100 yds. when shot from my Ruger 77 w/ Weaver 2.5 fixed scope. Lotta fun, those big bores ! My kind of contact sport.

You could say the 458 win is the 30-06 of the big bores .... in that it has huge diversity in reloading and casting your own bullets.
The 458 win seems also to be the most common big bore, which for me is advantageous.


The ruger 77 II
WORKS TOO



the jewelry

R those Ramline stocks ?? Nice looking covey of rifles u got there . Suprised Mart isn't chiming in beings you either reversed the negative, or those are left hand rifles . ;-).

We went to Delta last weekend. I didn't have a GPS wit me. But I took a bunch of pics. Of Black Rapids Roadhouse/Lodge. And One Mile Crik. I'm confident that it was One Mile Crik Mr Watts was standing in when he got charged. A few/ several miles further north up the highway is a Crik named Bear Crik. It's 2 criks up from One Mile Crik.
Still haven't wrassled my way thru getting another image hosting site. .
. One Mile Crik is about 8 feet wide at this time of year. And around 1-2' deep. If he was there in the spring , it may have been all of 15- 20 feet wide. And probably knee deep. But fairly swift flowing.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
With the 3-inch brass -- same girl -- just big gal pants

quite well put

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I'll settle for 3 + 1 in any Mauser or M70 or M77 30-06-length, about 8.0 pounds in synthetic or 8.5 pounds in walnut.

Welcome to the Ruger Hawkeye.

Yes, absolutely, just careless of me to omit the M77. I fixed it above.

Rip
.

Iirc , the Spruce King is 8 lbs 9 oz with 4 rounds of 350 gr hand loads , express sights and a 1" nylon strap sling. In the canoe paddle stock.
But, last time I weighed him was 18 years ago. So my rememberer may not be spot on.

email em to frank@agrarian.org

I will post em for you

CTF

if it's the mart I think you are talking about

I was lucky enough to talk him in to selling me his 375 hh montana left hand

not selling it back love it

COLD TRIGGER FINGERS JOURNEY BACK TO WHERE WATTS KILLED THE BEAR

A WALK BACK IN TIME TO THE PLACE THE 450 WATTS WAS FIRST CONCEIVED

FROM THE 458 WIN MAG AND LOTT GUYS ON AR

THANK YOU GLEN

QUOTE GLEN [CTF]



. A squal had moved in. Rain. Very common in the Alaska Range. For this time of year.
Imagine wandering around in this country . On foot and alone. Before search and rescue helicopters , electronic communications, check , I don't even know when penicillin was available.
Back then there were more grizzly's. Some of them pretty big .
Ample reason to want a bigger club after getting whacked by one after hitting it in the chest with what was the largest rifle available at the time

1

A skookum view




you can prolly seer kinda the lay of the land.

Alaska range. Tiny part of it anyway

2



3
One Mile
I think the old trail would be down in that fringe of spruce along the Delta river. But , I could be wrong. More investigating is required.




4
One Mile Crik


The one view is looking up the Crik. I would be surprised if the OVT = Old Valdez Trail , was up there . much more likely it was down stream. Well below the bridge




5







7
6I set my hat on the rock for a size comparison



8



9

Black Rapids Lodge



10

10

If I could only have 2 rifles they would be my 458 Win mag and my 6.5 Creedmoor

GLEN AKA [COLD TRIGGER FINGER]

came to me running a chainsaw on a nice 50 below F day

Thank You Sir !

Outstanding!
And thank you Glen.
Being a hillbilly from Kentucky, while living five years in Alaska I thought I had died and gone to heaven.
The hell of it was having to leave Alaska.
I'll be back!

Another loading consideration for the .458 Win.Mag. aka 450 Watts Short: 600 -grainers





This shows a functional length of bullet base within the neck,
same as you will find with some double-cannelured .458/400-grain bullets,
e.g., the Speer Flat-Nose.
Using a flat-nose seater plug allows flattening of the exposed lead round-nose.
That allows keeping the COL down to only 3.700", but of course a CZ box can handle the nose left round.
After the first shot, any round-nose bullets in the magazine box will become flat-nose bullets anyway.
I like to have those sheet metal boxes reinforced with steel plate on the front side of the box exterior.

I have my CH4D CanTool set for this length.
Many, many .458 bullets are now at risk of having an extra cannelure put on them,
especially Ye Olde Barnes Original .458/600-grainer with .049" jacket.
Plenty of fun to come!

Rip
.

quote:

CH4D CanTool

having one of those things

is like the day you quit telling your mother

everything you were up to



a whole new world opened up

eazy much easier than using Ray Atkins finger nail file to scratch A lott round in to your throat

that makes my tonsils raw just thinking about it

RIP just using the 458 win mag

one more of its many possible applications as a mass murder machine

not about to under utilize his 450 watts short

he might blow up the world but not about to blow up his gun

might just make a 350 gn bullet go better than a 30-06 with that thing

Ya gots to have a Lee Factory Crimp Die too.
That long bullet nose hits the top before the case mouth can make it to a roll crimp
in the standard .458 Win.Mag. seater die.
But that ain't no thang.
Just a minor detail you want to do with any load if you can.

Backing down from 46 grains to 26 grains of AA-5744 with the 409-grain Berry's Hard Cast.
Alf assures me it will work.
Maybe 1200 fps to be increased to no more than 1600 fps?
More fun than a barrel of squirrels and a legal centerfire rifle season on squirrels.

Rip
.

quote:

One Mile
I think the old trail would be down in that fringe of spruce along the Delta river. But , I could be wrong. More investigating is required.

CTF,

There should be some sign still around of the old trail. Tree blases or cut logs for example.

My old hunting partner and I used to hike the mountains where I live looking for old abandoned trails in the summer. Unfortunately she passed away a few years back so I do it on my own. It's surprising how well some remnants of old trails survive through time. Access to old maps help a lot to help locate them.

A few years back I picked up a book about the old roadhouses up there. I thought it would be fun to see what could still be found of the old trail. Someday I am going to plan some vacation time to come up and see.

Thanks for your pictures and descriptions.

And thanks to RIP and strandling for shedding light on a true modern assessment of the .458WM and what it can be. The bad rap it received seems to have been perpetuated to the present by accepting it as it was without investigating what it could be. Reading what you guys have put down here has been interesting.

Cougarz; yup, it will take some pokin around. But There should be sign of it. Unless there was some reason for it , the old trail would have stayed down close to the river. People and animal power were what they had back then. So avoiding the hilly area where the highway is makes the most sense t me. The Alaska Road/Highway Commision laid out the highway which originally was quite a goat trail. Sometimes it followed the OVT. Much of the time it did not.

quote:

a Lee Factory Crimp Die

13 $$



FAIRBANKS — The Ed S. Orr Stage Co., also called the Fairbanks-Valdez Stage Co., was the most successful of several stage lines that operated along the old Valdez-Fairbanks Trail between 1904 and the mid-1910s. One of his stages (now in the Pioneer Museum at Pioneer Park) is depicted in the drawing parked in front of a now-gone building on Dunkel Street that was used as a garage by Orr.

This route, an essential lifeline to Fairbanks (especially during the winter), actually began as an offshoot of the Valdez-Eagle Trail (Trans-Alaska Military Road). That trail was established by the U.S. government in response to the clamor for an all-American route from the ice-free waters of southern Alaska to the Yukon River and gold-fields of the Klondike. It wound northwest from Valdez over Thompson Pass, north across the Copper River Valley to Gakona, and thence northwest across Mentasta Pass and on to Eagle. The trail was begun in 1899 and completed by 1901, but by the time it was finished the Klondike Gold Rush was dying down and gold would soon be discovered in the hills above the Chena River.

Gold seekers heading for Fairbanks began taking the Valdez-Eagle Trail as far as the Gakona River, then crossing Isabelle Pass to the north, and following the Delta River north and west into the Tanana River Valley. This route, following old Indian trails, would become the route for winter mail delivery between Fairbanks and Valdez, and later for pack trains and wagons.

In 1904 the Valdez Transportation Co. began running pack trains and stages over the winter trail. That same year the federal government recommended that the War Department build a system of trails in Alaska and upgrade the Valdez-Eagle Trail to a wagon Road. The Alaska Road Commission headed by Capt. Wilds P. Richardson, was created to oversee Alaska’s road and trail system.

The ARC quickly began improving the winter mail route from Fairbanks to Valdez, eventually linking the trail up with the Valdez-Eagle Trail. The improved winter trail out of Fairbanks was completed in 1907 and an all-season wagon road was completed in 1910.

Ed Orr was already an experienced freighter when he began the Fairbanks-Valdez Stage in 1906. He had run pack trains up the Chilkoot Trail out of Dyea in 1898, and operated a successful stage company out of Dawson City between 1899 and 1905. On the Valdez-Fairbanks Trail he ran stages 2-3 times a week out of both cities, and each stage took about eight days for a one-way trip. Since horses had to be changed every 20-25 miles, and the stages had to overnight every 40-50 miles, numerous roundhouses along the route were essential.

The Northern Commercial Co. bought the stage line from Orr in 1910 and it continued to operate until 1914. By then newly formed automobile stage lines had taken much of the business away from horse-drawn stages.

BIG GUN EVERYONE UP THAT WAY KNOWS

IT'S HANDY TO HAVE ONE CLOSE AT HAND

History of the Valdez Trail
by Geoffrey Bleakley,
Park Historian

The Valdez Trail provided the first overland access to much of interior Alaska. This essay focuses on the development of overland transportation along the trail corridor, describing aboriginal use, American exploration, trail construction, and later route improvements and maintenance. This is an IN-DEPTH essay outlining the history of The Valdez Trail.

Indigenous Use of the Valdez Trail Corridor, 1800-1890.

Native groups traditionally controlled all of the land bordering the Valdez Trail. South of the Chugach mountains, the land belonged to the Chugach (or Prince William Sound) Eskimo. Various Athapaskan groups held the more northern territory.

Each created their own transportation networks. In general, local paths were used for subsistence activities, while longer trails were used for trade and occasionally for raiding. These routes usually followed natural corridors such as river valleys and traversed the more obvious mountain passes.

Trade occurred among the different Alaska Native groups long before contact with the Russians. The Ahtna, for example, often served as middlemen, bartering with the Chugach, Tlingit, and Eyak peoples, as well as their Athapaskan relatives, the Dena'ina and the Tanana. Although copper was their most important export, they also exchanged moose, caribou, lynx, and beaver pelts for marine products like seal skin boots. Both oral and documentary evidence suggests that the Ahtna regularly held intertribal trade fairs within the Valdez Trail corridor, including ones near both Thompson and Isabel passes.

In 1783, Russian promyshlenniki led by Leontii Nagaev discovered the mouth of the Copper River. Ten years later, employees of Pavel Sergeevich Lebedev-Lastochkin founded a post at Nuchek, about 30 miles further west.

No one is certain when the first Russian ascended the Copper River, but Dmitri Tarkhanov may have reached the mouth of the Chitina River in 1796. Semyen Potochkin certainly did. In 1798 he conducted a census of local inhabitants before wintering at the Ahtna village of Taral.

Although other explorers followed, attempts to examine Alaska's eastern interior abruptly ceased in 1805 when the Tlinget successfully destroyed the Russian colony at Yakutat. As a result, it was not until the mid-teens that Russian interest in the area returned.

In 1819 the Russians sent Afanasii Klimovskii to explore the region. Klimovskii progressed farther than any of his predecessors, certainly reaching the Gakona River and perhaps even the mouth of the Chistochina. Of more lasting importance, his party established a trading post called Copper Fort near Taral, which endured, off and on, for the next forty years.

In 1847 the Russian American Company received Native reports of English trading activity on the middle Yukon River and dispatched Ensign Ruf Serebrennikov to reconnoiter the area. Serebrennikov, however, only reached Batzulnetas, a village on the upper Copper River, before being killed.

The Ahtna, Tanana, and Han maintained complete control of their territory throughout the Russian colonial period of 1784 to 1867. The Russians' presence, however, did stimulate trade and consequently, the use of certain trails. The Ahtna, for example, initially delivered copper to the traders at Nuchek via the Keystone Canyon route. Lt. William R. Abercrombie, who visited the area in 1884, reported a "deep and well-worn trail up the canyon and across to the Tiekel River in the Copper River valley."

Similar paths existed elsewhere along the route. In Ahtna country, Lieutenant Walter C. Babcock related finding an "old Indian . . . foot trail" along the Little Tonsina River. "It had evidently been much used at one time, as there were numerous signs of brush cutting done many years ago, and the trail for long distances was worn down a foot or more below the natural surface."

Frank C. Schrader described a faint line following the northwestern side of the Copper River between the villages of Taral and Slana. Lt. Joseph C. Castner found an "old Indian trail" in Tanana country, down the right bank of the Delta River. Further east, Lt. Henry T. Allen discovered both Ahtna and Tanana corridors, including one leading from Suslota Lake to the Tanana River.

E. Hazard Wells located Tanana tracks, as well. Ascending the valley of the Tokio (now Tok) River in 1890, Wells recounted that his route became difficult to follow. "Several times we lost it while descending the mountainside, but at the bottom, in the forest-clad valley, it reappeared deeply printed into the moss." He also noted Han pathways, including "a well-beaten trail" leading to the village of Kechumstuk.

American Exploration of the Valdez Trail Corridor, 1885-1898.

When the United States acquired Alaska from Russia in 1867, neither party knew much about the territory's eastern interior. Russians had focused their attention on coastal areas and had only made a few abbreviated attempts to explore the region. Americans, in contrast, had never visited the area at all.

Neglected for the next fifteen years, the district began attracting interest in the mid-1880s. Gold strikes in northern British Columbia's Cassiar region and near the present site of Juneau lured prospectors to the north. Many eventually entered the interior, most by way of the Yukon River, but some via Cook Inlet and Prince William Sound.

The American government worried about the potential for conflict between the undisciplined miners and Alaska's Native population. Consequently, the U.S. Army soon dispatched several expeditions to reconnoiter the region. One such party, led by Lt. Frederick Schwatka, charted the entire Yukon River in 1883. Another, headed by Lt. William R. Abercrombie, attempted to examine the Copper River basin the following year. Although stopped by rapids on the lower river, Abercrombie later located an alternative overland route to the interior: across the Valdez Glacier heading the Valdez Arm.

In 1885, the army sent Lt. Henry T. Allen to finish Abercrombie's work. More successful than his predecessor, the lieutenant ascended the Copper River and pioneered the route across the Alaska Range and into the Tanana River valley.

Five years later, a private expedition led by E. Hazard Wells added another segment. Journeying down the Yukon from its headwaters, the party traveled up the Fortymile River and traversed the Kechumstuk Hills to Mansfield Lake. From there, they crossed the Tanana River and ascended the Tok River to near Mentasta Pass. Much of this route was later incorporated into the trail's Eagle City Branch.

Northern gold discoveries continued, climaxing with an especially rich find on northwestern Canada's Klondike River in 1896. This precipitated the region's greatest rush. In their haste to reach the gold fields, many stampeders prepared inadequately for the hardships they would have to endure. As a result, the U.S. Army soon received reports of widespread deprivation. Responding to the rumors, the military dispatched Capt. Patrick H. Ray and Lt. Wilds P. Richardson to proceed to Alaska and to provide necessary relief.

Most stampeders reached the Klondike via a largely Canadian path over the Chilkoot Pass, located near the northern end of Alaska's Lynn Canal. Many, however, objected to the foreign control of that transportation corridor and called for an "all-American route." Recognizing the logic of their demands, Ray recommended the immediate construction of a government trail into the Yukon River basin.

Unscrupulous local promoters, circulating stories of an easy passage linking Prince William Sound with the interior, lured thousands of gullible stampeders to Port Valdez. Unfortunately, the arriving prospectors found only one way across the Chugach Range: Abercrombie's exceptionally difficult and dangerous path over the Valdez and Klutina glaciers. Faced with few options, most attempted that route, and many eventually died from disease, accidents, and exposure.

In the spring of 1898, the army sent Capt. William R. Abercrombie back to Port Valdez, hoping to locate a safer way. The captain first inspected the Lowe River valley, where he spotted the remains of a Chugach trail leading to the north toward Keystone Canyon. Proceeding to the interior via the Valdez Glacier, Abercrombie found an Ahtna path leading up the right (or western) bank of the Copper River. Both were eventually utilized by the Valdez Trail.

Contemporaneous with Abercrombie's efforts, another army expedition also sought a practical route to the interior. This group, under the command of Capt. Edwin F. Glenn, blazed a path linking Cook Inlet to the Copper River basin. Not content with merely reaching Lake Louise, an exploratory party led by Lt. Joseph C. Castner continued northward along the Gulkana River, eventually locating a new pass through the Alaska Range.

Although it attracted little immediate attention, Castner's trail soon gained significance. Speaking about his adventure ten years later, Castner noted that a "well-beaten path traveled yearly by hundreds goes up our old Gulkona [sic] and down our Delta to the Tanana, traversing one of the best passes through the Alaska Alps." In the intervening decade, Castner's route had been incorporated into the Fairbanks fork of the Valdez Trail.

Construction of the Valdez Trail, 1898-1906

Abercrombie returned to the region in 1899. Utilizing only hand tools, his soldiers built a 93-mile packhorse trail from the coastal community of Valdez to the Tonsina River. Weary stampeders immediately adopted this shorter path. Addison M. Powell, a civilian employee of Abercrombie's and an early explorer of the Chistochina River, reported that by the end of the summer, the route was already filled with prospectors headed for the Nizina River basin.

Mountaineer Robert Dunn employed the half-built trail the following year on his way to Copper Center. Unlike the stampeders who were usually too hurried to appreciate its spectacular scenery, Dunn recorded a vivid description of the route:

By night we had gone twenty miles up the Lowe River--its bed a strip of Arizona in the exotic forest--and then through Keystone Canyon by a five-foot trail cut in the cliff's face a thousand feet above the stream. In the canyon were two waterfalls, each 700 feet high. . . . Another day among ptarmigan and ice and blue morainal tarns took us over the misty pass and into the great valley of the Copper River.
Encouraged by such traffic, construction continued, and by 1901 the army had completed its trail all the way to Eagle City.

Alaska residents soon demanded additional federal aid. In 1903, visiting members of a Senate Subcommittee on Territories heard testimony on a broad range of subjects, including the need for better transportation. Army Signal Corps Lt. William L. Mitchell, for example, related the current condition of the Valdez-Eagle City Trail. Pioneer Judge James Wickersham went even further. He requested that the government improve the route, calling such action an essential prerequisite to developing the interior's mining potential.

U.S. Geological Survey geologist Alfred H. Brooks agreed. Incidental to a discussion on the future of placer mining, he recommended that a million dollars be spent in building wagon roads to the inland placer camps. Such arguments seem to have convinced the senators. Upon returning to Washington, they recommended that the government construct a system of transportation routes, beginning with a well-built wagon road connecting Valdez and Eagle City.

That winter Congress appropriated $25,000 to conduct the initial survey. The following spring the War Department appointed an army engineer to supervise the work. Completing the job in August 1904, J. M. Clapp estimated that it would cost $3,500 per mile or a total of approximately $1.5 million to build the road.

By then, however, Eagle City had already lost its priority as the trail's terminus. Mineral production on the upper Yukon River had begun to decline, and Felix Pedro had discovered gold in the Tanana River valley. Stampeders heading for this new strike left the Eagle City Trail near the Gakona River and followed that stream to its headwaters. Joining Castner's path near Paxson Lake, they crossed the Alaska Range and proceeded down the Delta River. Upon reaching the Delta's mouth, they followed the Tanana River northwest to Fairbanks. By late 1903, this Fairbanks branch had become the dominant interior route.

The new trail quickly attracted its first common carrier. In December 1904, James Fish announced that his Valdez Transportation Company would soon provide passenger service to Fairbanks. "Over such part of the trail as is practical," he assured travelers, "comfortable bob sleds will be fitted up and drawn by two horses. Over the summit, and wherever it is not practicable [sic] to run two horses abreast, the single double-ended sleds will be used and the horses driven tandem." A month later the first of its tri-weekly stages left Valdez, promising a nine day trip for the exorbitant price of $150.

While not a stage passenger, Wickersham traveled the trail during the same period. Conditions remained somewhat primitive. The judge recorded crashing his dog-sled on the approach to Copper Center, suffering scratches, bruises, and a twisted ankle. Reaching the Chippewa "roadhouse" on a cold, February night, Wickersham found only a canvas lean-to attached to a small, open-fronted cabin. Admittedly austere, even this housing was jammed with "men and dog-teams transporting mining supplies . . . to Fairbanks."

Although too late to be enjoyed by Wickersham, trail improvements were already under discussion. That January, President Theodore Roosevelt had established the Board of Road Commissioners for Alaska (popularly known as the Alaska Road Commission or ARC) and designated Maj. Wilds P. Richardson as its first president. Richardson was particularly concerned about the development of interior Alaska and emphasized the speedy construction of a more permanent Valdez-Fairbanks route.

The ARC's initial construction efforts met only basic demands. The trail's width was determined by its anticipated traffic. Light traffic required a 10-foot roadway, while heavy traffic demanded 16-feet. Over most level, well-drained ground, road crews merely cleared a corridor. Where it was possible to improve drainage, they sometimes removed the moss, "grading up and crowning, with a single ditch on interior slope and frequent cross culverts to carry off seepage and rainfall and prevent cutting." In permafrost areas, where good drainage was impossible, crews utilized corduroy construction. Designed to prevent the frozen ground from melting and creating an impassable quagmire, this technique involved placing a layer of poles parallel to the roadbed and covering them with another layer at right angles to the first.

Culvert construction varied. Where the needed water capacity was small, the Road Commission usually fabricated pipe culverts from four 12-inch planks. For larger applications, the crews built culverts entirely of log, except in treeless sections where they sometimes utilized a dry masonry technique.

Under normal conditions, the Road Commission would probably have limited itself to reconnaissance and survey work that first season and not undertaken any real construction. Receiving urgent appeals from the residents of Fairbanks, however, Richardson moved to provide immediate relief. Road crews rapidly replaced 3,032 feet of worn-out corduroy and bridged about 25 small streams.

The ARC distributed and cached the materials necessary for its next construction season along the entire route during the winter of 1905-06. Besides arranging for the delivery of rations, animal forage, and tools, it also began the job of bridging the Tazlina River. Built by Lars Holland, this $19,000 structure replaced a hazardous ferry on which several passengers had been drowned.

For interior Alaska, the bridge was a technological wonder. Four hundred and fifty feet long, it employed two Howe truss spans of 108 feet, two King post spans of 50 feet, and approaches. The main trusses rested on pile bents, protected by 10 x 30 foot, rock-filled crib piers. The trusses were constructed of hewn lumber, with the lower chords built from four to six pieces, bolted and keyed together. A lack of large timber near the site forced Holland to secure trees from as much as six miles away.

John A. Clark navigated the trail that spring. One of a party of six young men riding bicycles to Fairbanks, he vividly described his journey along the Delta River:

The winter trail followed the river and so did we. We were unable to judge whether there was open water ahead and we didn't care much. The water ran over the tops of our shoe packs, and frequently one of us would slip on the smooth ice and go down into the water. We seemed to flow with the black water--black water underfoot, with black night ahead.
Improving the trail was a difficult and expensive process. Engineers had to overcome many obstacles, including a short construction season, raging glacial rivers, permafrost, and an abundance of mountainous terrain. Crews relocated many of the original segments, including the one linking Gakona with Castner's pass. Nevertheless, by the end of the 1906 season, the Alaska Road Commission had finished the route.

These trail refinements substantially speeded postal service. While previous contractors had required about ten and one-half days to traverse the distance between Valdez and Fairbanks, mail carrier Ed Orr completed the journey during the winter of 1906-07 in a record time of only six days, ten hours, and ten minutes.

The refurbished trail also attracted more common carriers. In 1907, at least two stage lines vied for its passenger and freight business: Orr's company and another operated by Dan T. Kennedy. Orr's enterprise was particularly successful. Equipped with nine-passenger, horse-drawn bobsleds boasting fur robes and carbon-heated foot warmers, it moved travelers from the coast to Fairbanks in just eight days.

Such changes had a dramatic effect on the community. Expanding quickly, the town soon acquired most of the amenities of civilization, including electric lights, running water, and a telephone system. Something of a supply depot for the rest of the interior, Fairbanks possessed hotels, schools, churches, hospitals, and even a daily newspaper. Although the town received substantial river traffic during its short summer, the remainder of the year the Valdez Trail provided its only access.

Maintenance and Use of the Valdez Trail, 1907-1919

As the Road Commission grew more sophisticated, it eventually adopted fixed standards for its roads. A "wagon road," for example, embraced "only that class of road intended to meet the conditions of an all-year-round traffic of considerable tonnage, located with suitable grades, crowned, ditched, and drained, and corduroyed or planked where necessary." A "winter road," like that between Valdez and Fairbanks, was "designed to meet the requirements for winter travel only." While not crowned, ditched, or drained, such a road possessed suitable width for double teams and a proper grade for loads.

In 1907, the Alaska Syndicate began developing its rich copper claims above the Kennicott Glacier. While it soon started work on an affiliated railroad, that project required over two years to complete. In the interim, the corporation moved its requisite personnel, supplies, and equipment via the southernmost section of the Valdez Trail. Acting swiftly, it erected a 400-ton mill and a 16,000 foot tramway before the railway ever reached the site.

Granted substantial annual funding, the Alaska Road Commission gradually upgraded the Valdez Trail. Originally created for pack and saddle horses, it quickly evolved into a winter road and by the end of 1908, about a third was suitable for wagons. Traffic increased as well.

J. H. Ingram, the superintendent of the Valdez District, estimated that contractors had moved over 83,000 pounds of mail, 2,500 tons of freight, and nearly 100 head of cattle over his section during the preceding year.

By now, enterprising citizens had located "roadhouses" along the entire route. Usually owned by homesteaders, these inns provided travelers with a convenient and comfortable place to stop. As most operators cultivated gardens, many supplied fresh vegetables in season. Not surprisingly, these lodges became the local nodes: what Richardson called "small centers of settlement and supply" from which to explore the adjoining country.

The trail itself, however, still needed a little work. In 1908, one pilgrim died when the sled in which he was riding overturned after hitting a chuckhole near the Tiekel River. Travelers experienced other setbacks, as well. Extensive flooding in 1909 severely damaged the Tazlina River Bridge. Repairs cost more than $13,000, about 70 percent of the price of the original structure, and required nearly a year to complete.

During the summer of 1909, maintenance of the Valdez Trail required 19 crews. Each consisted of a foreman, cook, two teamsters, and about 20 laborers, plus a wagon and six to eight horses for moving camp and hauling timbers. "Plows and scrapers were used wherever practicable, although the greater part of the work, being in a broken and rocky country or through brush and timber swamp, had to be done by hand with pick, mattock, and shovel."

In 1910, the trail received its first serious competition. Roughly parallelling its southernmost one-quarter, the Copper River and Northwestern Railroad immediately captured most of the freight traffic headed for the Chitina River valley. Because the train was faster, many Fairbanks-bound travelers also rode it. Disembarking in Chitina, they rejoined the Valdez-Fairbanks route via the newly constructed Chitina-Willow Creek (later Edgerton) Cutoff. Use of the Valdez to Willow Creek section subsequently declined.

Ignoring the competition, the Board maintained its expenditures. In 1910, for example, it spent $248,782 on improving the trail. Eventually, its persistent efforts began to achieve results. That August, for example, Richardson made the first continuous trip over the route in a wagon, covering the entire distance in only 13 days!

The following year the ARC built a new, 420-foot bridge over the Tonsina River, replacing one constructed by the military in 1900 and now considered unsafe. Except for the Gulkana, Delta, Tanana, Salcha, and Piledriver Slough, all important rivers traversed by the trail were now bridged. Of the remaining five, only the Delta lacked a ferry.

Bridge work continued in 1912. The Road Commission placed a 40-foot truss over Ptarmigan Creek, two 60-foot spans across Stewart Creek, and a 270-foot pile trestle over Gunn Creek. Most impressive, however, was its 748-foot bridge, possessing a single center king-post, over an unnamed glacier stream near the Miller Roadhouse.

The new bridges contributed to another innovation. In 1913, the first motorized vehicle traveled the entire length of the trail. The automobile averaged about nine miles per hour, despite having to be "helped through soft spots on rather heavy grades."

Others quickly followed. The Road Commission, however, largely ignored the phenomenon, declaring that it made "no pretense of having built roads adapted for automobile travel." Five years later its basic position remained unchanged. While acknowledging the increasing number of such vehicles, the Board still discouraged their use.

Despite the ARC's objections, mechanization had clearly arrived. In 1918, the Board purchased two tractors, one eight-foot road grader, three six-foot road graders, four three-way road drags, and four heavy trucks. Automobile stage coaches now traveled regular routes between Valdez and Fairbanks and motorized vehicles carried most of the mail. No longer a trail, in 1919 the Road Commission conceded to the inevitable and redesignated it as the Richardson Road in honor of its newly retired first president, Colonel Wilds P. Richardson.

Maintenance and Use of the Richardson Road, 1920-1945.

Journeying to Alaska in 1923 to dedicate the Alaska Railroad, President Warren G. Harding inspected both ends of the Richardson Road. While he only viewed about 50 miles of the

corridor, he was apparently impressed. In a speech delivered upon his return to Seattle, he noted that "our long national experience in pushing our highways ahead of the controlling wave of settlement ought to convince us that the broadest liberality towards roads in Alaska will be sure to bring manifold returns." In keeping with that belief, the President pledged "to serve Alaska generously, and more, in this matter of road building." Nothing, however, came of his promise; Harding died only a few days later.

By 1925, tour companies throughout the United States advertised the Richardson Highway as the center portion of the "Golden Belt Line." Appealing to the more adventurous traveler, this circular route stretched from Cordova to Seward and incorporated the Copper River and Northwest Railroad at one end and the Alaska Railroad at the other. One major automobile carrier, aptly designated the Richardson Highway Transportation Company, carried hundreds of passengers each season, operating what it described as a fleet of passenger vehicles over the road "without delay or inconvenience."

Controversy erupted in 1932 when the Interior Department tried to increase the profitability of the Alaska Railroad by taxing Richardson Highway users. When most motorists ignored its license fee requirements, the Road Commission tried another tack: collecting a toll at the commission-operated ferry across the Tanana River. Commercial carriers quickly objected and, beginning in 1940, staged a general revolt. Rebellious truckers crossed the river on a home-built scow, defiantly flying a skull-and-crossbones flag. When challenged, one group even seized and disarmed the local U.S. Deputy Marshall. Despite such flagrant violations, the government was powerless to enforce its law. A Fairbanks grand jury judged the tax to be discriminatory and refused to return indictments against the accused. In 1942, Interior Secretary Harold L. Ickes finally bowed to the inevitable and repealed the toll.

The threat of war brought many changes to the Richardson Highway. In 1940, Lt. Gen. John L. Dewitt, the commander of the U.S. Fourth Army, recognized that Anchorage was isolated and vulnerable to attack. To alleviate the danger, he proposed connecting the city to the road. Gen. Simon B. Buckner, the head of the Alaska Defense Command, agreed, further suggesting that the highway be widened and straightened, and that its bridges be strengthened sufficiently to withstand the anticipated increase in military traffic.

Both were prudent requests. Following the outbreak of World War II, the men and supplies used to construct the Alaska section of the Alcan (now called the Alaska) Highway were all moved along the Richardson, with materials flowing southeast from Fairbanks as well as north from Valdez. Finished in November 1942, the Alcan joined the Richardson Highway to the remainder of the North American highway system at the interior Alaskan village of Delta Junction.

The Anchorage connection came more slowly. It was late 1943 before the Glenn Highway, named for pioneer Alaskan explorer, Capt. Edwin F. Glenn, linked the city to the Richardson Highway at Glennallen.

Conclusion

The Valdez Trail provided the first overland access to much of interior Alaska. Built by the U.S. Army and the Alaska Road Commission between 1898 and 1907, it followed a series of indigenous paths linked by such prominent explorers as Lt. Henry T. Allen, Capt. William R. Abercrombie, Capt. Edwin F. Glenn, and Lt. Joseph C. Castner. Although originally directed to Eagle City, the trail was diverted to Fairbanks following a nearby gold discovery in 1902. A closing thrust in a period of pioneer American trail building which began with Daniel Boone's construction of his Wilderness Road through the Allegheny Mountains in 1769, the Valdez Trail channelled people, freight, and mail into the district, promoting mining activity, aiding the development of supporting industries, and hastening the settlement of the Copper, Yukon, and Tanana river valleys.

This thread continues to live up to its 5-Star rating.

Poking around at the local emporium,
I found a few old-stock boxes of Hornady's "Heavy Magnum" .458 WinMag ammo.
Discontinued now? It is the stuff that claimed 2260 fps with 500-grain DGX bullet.
I peeked at the headstamp on the brass, it was made with "WW" Winchester brass.
This must be from before Hornady started making their own brass?

I have plenty of WW and R-P brass. I need to add more H brass for the .458 WinMag to my collection.

The newer stock is "Superformance" with DGX soft and DGS solid 500-grainers.
It has Hornady headstamp on the brass.
The velocity claim for both of those is 2140 fps.
I bought a couple of boxes of the DGS solids.
Will look back and see what stradling got in clocking the Superformance loads,
as well as the old HM loads in WW brass by Hornady.
I just can't remember off the top of my head.
Surely he has done them all.

Anyway, when I shoot the cast bullet loads, I'll chronograph the Hornady Superformance .458 WinMags.
I lived in Missouri for a while so I just gotta show me.

Any of the old HM stuff I ever chronographed never lived up to the claims.
Hopefully Hornady got smart and figured out that 2140 fps from a 24" barrel is perfect,
and they figured out how to do it,
in my rifle as well as their tight test barrel.

Rip
.

Just to bring it btt, where this thread deserves to be,
here is the first installment of ".458 Win. Mag. Cast Bullet Handloading for Dummies":



Only one of 5 of those shots caught the rifling well enough to spin and follow the windage setting of the front bead sight.

I will put a 2.5X Leupold scope on the rifle and find a more accurate load,
to keep it simple I will try 26.0 and 36.0 grains of AA-5744.

I am guessing those loads will be about 1200 fps and 1550 fps respectively.
I expect both will make round holes in the target.
Will see if one or the other is more accurate in my rifle and go from there,
looking for a fun load.

Will zero the scope with Hornady Superformance loads (500-grain DGS)
then shoot the cast bullets and see where they go in relation to that POA-POI,
chronographing with an Oehler 35P.

Rip
.

New member Micheal Sperry Sr. Came up with a novel idea. Using a sabot and shooting 416 bullets in his 458 Winchester. . P Dog Shooter and I conversed a bit on the idea and it seems .357 cal sabots are available for .458" groove barrels. So I'm tinkin maybe the 225 gr TSX might work in the sabot . And still fully stabilize in the 14" twist. So, in theory if accurate, my point blank brown bear stopping rifle may well be a good 400+ yard caribou rifle. Perhaps boot them out @ 2900 fps.
What d y'all think ?? Am I out to lunch or got my thinking cap on straight. ???

For all else of course Ide b shooting real 458 bullets and boolits.

CTF- Along that line of thought: The 404J has a groove diameter of .423". this is only .006" narrower than the 44 Mag's .429". So I'm wondering about using those plastic tubes designed for shooting shot, clipping off the front and inserting a 250 gr Sierra .375" bullet. Ballistics would be slightly better than the 375 H&H, which would make for a decent caribou cartridge to about 300 yards, as noted, provided the contraption has any sort of accuracy. then should the need arise there would be the 450 gr Woodleighs.

CTF,

Considering experimenting with these?



45 Cal. Rifle .355 – .357
Bullet Possibilities: 88 – 180 Grains
Recommended Deer Bullet: 140 – 158 Grains
https://www.mmpsabots.com/store/blue-sabot/

Barnes Triple-Shock X (TSX) Bullets 35 Caliber (358 Diameter) 225 Grain Hollow Point Flat Base Lead-Free Box of 50

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-lead-free-box-of-50



http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/tsx/

Diameter .358
Weight 225
Length 1.309
S.D 0.251
B.C 0.359
Box QTY 50
Catalog # 30457

With the higher-than-muzzle-loader velocities of a .458 WinMag, that not-quite-so-longish .358/200-grain TTSX might stabilize,
if the 225-grain TSX will.
Compare:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/ttsx/

Diameter .358"
Weight 200
Length 1.296
S.D 0.223
B.C 0.369
Box QTY 50
Catalog # 30461


https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-boat-tail-box-of-50

I'll add that to my bucket list.

Rip
.

Those would be worth experimenting with !
Here's another thot. Looking at those pieces of plastic. Kinda made me start thinking about plastic shot wad cups for a 410 shotgun.
I'm thinking maybe it would be interesting to see if 3/4 oz of #6 shot would pattern at say 1100 fps from my favorite rifle. With the purpose of a truely all around firearm. Grouse to elephants.
Maybe I've just been thinking too much.
The rifling may make it go wonky, ????

I hadn't even thot about the 404 , but I think you may be on to something. I'll be shooting some 250 gr Sierra Game Kings this week in my 375 Whelan A.I. fireforming brass. I was originally thinking that if a 45 cal sabot could be got that took a 375 cal bullet I could shoot the 250 gr TTSX. But shooting a 358 cal TSX will work fine. For my needs.