I have an idea.

Before trashing Wieland, read Dangerous Game Rifles cover to cover. Then, if you still want to trash him, OK. I find it hard to put any credence in the idea that Wieland's comments are in any respect ant-gun. IF TW doesn't want a 500+, he should not get one. I don't, and I haven't. Works fine for me.

I have read Terry's book, Dangerous-Game RIFLES (2006), cover to cover.
I also lined his pocket a bit by purchasing A View from a Tall Hill, Robert Ruark in Africa (2000),
though it was due to the subject, not the author, that I was attracted.

Regarding his DG Rifles:
Faulty and shallow.
Very short shrift to the 404 Jeffery, which is just glossed over, and dated wrongly there too.
He badmouths the .375 Weatherby quite a bit.
He trashed my two favorites, the 404 Jeffery and the .375 Weatherby.

A key to the snobbish prick psychology of Terry Weeweeland may be understood in this quote, from page 179:

"The .404 established a reputation for reliability and became the standard-issue rifle for several game departments, notably that of Tanganyika ... in a kind of reverse psychology, the .404 came to be thought of as a rather blue-collar 'game scout' cartridge."

That is essentially all he has to say about the 404 Jeffery. Not at all interesting to Terry Weeweeland because of his own "reverse psychology."
The 404 Jeffery is tainted to his sensibilities.

Maybe his own "reverse psychology" has got him all weewee-ed up over anything more powerful than the classic .505 Gibbs.
That one he approves of.
No blue-collar taint on that one.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I found it to be an ok, but very superficial glance at a topic numerous people here are more knowledgeable about.

Also, his biases show through quite clearly. K-Rigby is the bee's knees, but there is no mention of Searcy's existance? There has to be a story there. The same can be said of his section on bolts and calibers. I can get the same type of dogma for free at any of several local gun shops and value it just as 'highly.'

I found it entertaining, and most of us are, shall we say, just as opinionated! At least he had the good taste to show a photo of one of my rifles, on page 23 I believe (don't have a copy in front of me).

The most glaring omission, to my mind, in "Dangerou Game Rifles" was the cursory treatment of the CZ 550 magnum action. That action, in my opinion, is largely responsible for the resurgence in "big" and "ultra big" bore rifles over the past fifteen years.

Yes and he doesn't treat the CZ's very well in his book either. He refers to the backwards safety which I believe was an earlier Brno design (the CZ 550's safety is forward for fire like most American rifles). All in all I found his book well written and informative, I'm looking forward to reading his article.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
While I agree that "them" guns are to big for me, and most others to hunt with...

If people want to build them and play with or even hunt with them, why should I care????

I am in agreement.
I know what my upper limit is for recoil and manageable weight is. I love to watch the guys who shoot the really big stuff. I also like having friends that have them around just in case I forget what stepping in front of a buss is like.
Just a note on the “no one hunting with .577 0r .600” line of bull, Jeff Wemmer hunts with a 600 and does quite well.
Bill

It can be summed up very simply, NEED AINT GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH!!!! However, I am a little disappointed with the picture of Boddington shooting the 700 nitro. He explains that the recoil brings the barrels nearly straight up vertically. This is a very exaggerated picture. While 700 nitro recoil is stout, the barrels go nowhere near vertical when shooting a 700 nitro of that weight, if your are holding the gun correctly at all. I think he is trying to scare off people from shooting the 700 nitro.

Have to agree with RIP Terry WEEWEELAND is justy a stuck up JERK with little real big bore experience. ITS totally clear he really doesn't know how to shoot them. His opinion just dont MATTER to me! Id be happy to tell him that to his face!-Rob

I have not read Weiland's book thus can not comment, However some food for thought?

In setting up the protocols ( and they did use strict protocols because of scrutiny by outside agencies) the KNP in the 70's decided on the use of the FN-FAL for the culling of Elephant.

At first they used all manner of privately owned arms, including big bore hunting rifles and doubles ; 375's 404's, 416's 470's 458's 577's 600's, they also studied the Rhodesian experience and found that a competent shooter could not shoot a large bore consistantly to get the results they required.

The recoil and effects of repeated firings of a large bore on the shooter was such that the shooter could not shoot the animals fast enough, nor could the shooter shoot accurate enough.

( Source: The Symposium on the African Elephant as Game ranch animal: April 1995) The Wildlife group Vetinary Society Onderstepoort South Africa)

Sources:

Laws RM and Johnstone RCB 1975 Elephants and their habitats
Hanks J. The elepaht problem 1971
Martin 1989:


In the reports released on the culling in the KNP the average group size of elephant shot was 33

With the first magazine ( 20 shots) a single shooter with a back-up to fire secondary shots could drop 19-20 animals within 20-60 seconds with a kill radius of no more than 25m. 90% of animals killed were one shot only kills. This is not possible using large bore guns.

Between 1970 and 1985 Culling teams shot 10,264 elephant mainly using this method.

The largest numbers shot were in 1970 = 1846 elephant, and during the terrible drought of 1983 and 1984 when the Lowveld was very hard hit by lack of rain. ( 1983 = 1290 and 1984 = 1289 animals)

In the same period 31,379 Buffalo were culled but because of their habit to run after the first shot ( 5 average shot in one session) scoline was adopted as an imobilizer followed by a shooting by small bore rifle at close range.

How dare you want other flavors than vanilla!

If there is one thing I have learned it's "Never judge a book by it's cover" and never underestimate anyone. You will always come up short with egg on your face if you do.
Take care
Dave

how many of those fine culling machines were killed by said elephant and/or buffalo?

Rich

ALF- Sorry but exactly what point are you trying to make? Culling animals isnt stopping charges. A FN-FAL sucks at stopping charges. A .600NE excells at that. Most of us are not interested in Culling we are sport hunters we dont need heat shields on our rifles. This is about a gun writer telling us what we can and can't do as well as what we should or should not do. Here is another news flash. A .600NE at 100 yrds is just as accurate as a FN-FAL. YUp you cant follow up as fast, but sorry, JUST AS ACCURATE.-Rob

Culling often involved stopping charges from enraged cows and less often herd bulls. In Zim the OP was to take out the matriarch cows and bulls with large bores such as the 458 Win and big double rifles then use FN-FAL, Draganovs etc. to take out the young and calves. The FN was not considered a good charge stopper. Read Mahohboh by Thompson for his experience when being charged by a bull when he was armed with an FN.

I also don't see where Wieland said you can't or should not hunt with the ultra big bores only that they are not necessary to have a safe and successful hunt for elephant or buffalo. In fact John Taylor considered the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs too big for buffalo.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I also don't see where Wieland said you can't or should not hunt with the ultra big bores only that they are not necessary to have a safe and successful hunt for elephant or buffalo. In fact John Taylor considered the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs too big for buffalo.

465H&H

Here is a quote and again, this is the issue:

"Regardless what anyone claims, they are impossible to actually hunt with."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vxnuJjEbnA

drewhenry shooting a fullhouse 4bore ..

someone tell me how this big ole fella, shooting a 4 bore FOR THE FIRST TIME is at a disadvantage?

Looks like most folks shooting a 375, with less muzzle rise...

"impossible" is a mighty big word ...

oh, yeah, I filmed this "impossibility"

The largest rifle I have used is a 460 Wby.

For offhand shooting I could do the same with a 460 as a 270, although not for as many shots and very few shots if brake is removed. So for offhand shooting and where not many shots were fired I would not see a 460 as a disadvantge.

For long range shooting from an improvised rest, could be a sandbag on the side mirror of the car etc. a 460 without a brake would be inferior for me. I can shoot a 375 in exactly the same manner as I would a 270. However, that type of shooting will hardly apply to very big game shooting.

I have no doubt that different shooters using a 600 OK can do exactly what I could do with a 460, maybe I could myself

You just have to want to bad enough. I went thru Army Ranger School back in 1968. The graduation rate hovered around 40% for the "77 Days of Hell".
The TAC NCO's goal was to wash out as many as possible. They made sure you wanted it bad enough to stick. Big bore rifles are the same way.
Weiland just doesn't know people like us who want it bad enough to stick. Poor guy, he should come to the Hoot-n-Shoot and see tough!

Rich

Rich;

In all honesty it appears in the photo that indeed your hands are both off the stock.

I have no doubt that big bores are indeed capable of being handled as well as shot well.

My journey in big bores started with a 416 and is currently at its upper limit with a 458 Lott. My arthritis seems somewhat better after a few rounds with either, but over all it is getting worse-somedays my left (shooting) shoulder is virtually immobile for an hour or so after waking. I am pretty sure I am recoil limited by this and not spirit. I like simulated car crashes!

Build and shoot what you want, it's your money and time!

Everyone (Wieland and Boddington, etc too), have opinions, and well, we all know what comes next....

Liberty!

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew cempa:
Rich;

In all honesty it appears in the photo that indeed your hands are both off the stock.

I have no doubt that big bores are indeed capable of being handled as well as shot well.

My journey in big bores started with a 416 and is currently at its upper limit with a 458 Lott. My arthritis seems somewhat better after a few rounds with either, but over all it is getting worse-somedays my left (shooting) shoulder is virtually immobile for an hour or so after waking. I am pretty sure I am recoil limited by this and not spirit. I like simulated car crashes!

Build and shoot what you want, it's your money and time!

Everyone (Wieland and Boddington, etc too), have opinions, and well, we all know what comes next....

Liberty!

Naw that was just his Jedi floating grip. Kinda like a floating barrel. Help accuracy
I have seen him fire those whomper loads without issue. Maybe it was the combo of no checkering and using the shooting sticks that he did not grip the gun as his normal offhand shooting style.

Having an opinion is one thing. Telling others what they can and should not do is another. Ever notice that the people who actually HAVE relevant Experience dont offer their OPINIONS till asked to do so? Dont remember ever asking Terry WEEWEEland anything about big bores. I've read his great book and basically its the centrist ravings of a guy with little real experience! I love it when those who have never been there or done that deceide their opinon really matters and everyone should listen. What happened to the sage old rule of keeping your mouth shut till you know what your talking about? I guess in OBAMA -Land making an ass of yourself is now perfectly OK. As for WeeWee, its back to shootin school with a gag in his mouth.-Rob

Just a quote...

"The larger bores are certainly safer, especially to a nervous man or a bad shot, but it does not make much difference to the elephant whether his brain has been punctured by a .577 or .256 bullet. When a man has a weapon like a .500 bore cordite in his hand he is apt to think that he has only got to hit the beast to bring it to bag"



C. H. Stigand & D. Lyell, Central African Game and its spoor, 1906

quote:

Naw that was just his Jedi floating grip

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Naw that was just his Jedi floating grip

The Force is strong with him. Yoda taught him well

He was shooting your beautiful 550 bullets there.

don't take Stigand's word for it, he got speared by some illiterate not much later...

I always figured I'd use the biggest tool for the job I could handle.

Want experienced advice? Talk to Mike Jines here about that, or 465 H&H.

Rich

Perhaps Mr Wieland had this in mind?
There can be no doubt that the shooter in this case is versed in African hunting and by all accounts understands "gun control"

Indeed, I saw that story and read where Boddington also tried the 600NE and was very happy to have the opportunity to borrow the 600NE for a hunt! Ok, fine, 700 was over his limit and the 600 he choose to hunt. Good photo, and a good read.

So now Weiland quotes Boddington , supposedly regarding the 577Nyati and other 577/585's:

quote:

"Frankly, I do not believe anyone can really handle a rifle that big" Craig (Boddington) told me,

I know the history of the 700. And the 600. And 577. Three different stories. Dont tell me all this crap about the 577. It was used by real men too good effect for many years. Ok, and some bad old ammo issues too. All that might lead to one loading a tad over the old NE levels, not less.

Weiland never even mentioned anything in 600 or 700 class. Not that he should, but all this "NOT NECESSARY" was directed at more or less bolt action clones of the great historic 577NE doubles! And here is Craig hunting with the 600NE.

Here goes-We around here look horrible in short pants,
but by jiminy I and others like tailgunner, the boy, grandsons.
shoot 12ga FH, 700HE loads with much more ME than a 700NE,
and muzzle only rises a small fraction of what is shown
in the picture. Must be the turn of the ankle
that makes the difference, IE you can't do it
if you got nice legs!!!Ed

Ed, right on. Maybe its a snob thing,... green shirt and shorts and expensive double is fine. Bolt action with camo shirt and your riff raff.

With a double, even $100,000++ gun, if your not happy with the penetration or cannot handle the power. You are hosed. With one of these big bolt guns, you just load 'er up or down as wanted.

What ever keep the shooting sports alive or growing is a good thing. Like cowboy shoots. Its not real, its fun. Good sport and supports the industry. if, i want a big big bore for fun, why pick on me?

I watched Boddington Sunday on TAA and he was hunting with Bill Jones and his 700 H&H. When Ivan and Craig backed him up both chose their 450 Nitros instead of Bills 600 double.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here goes-We around here look horrible in short pants,
but by jiminy I and others like tailgunner, the boy, grandsons.
shoot 12ga FH, 700HE loads with much more ME than a 700NE,
and muzzle only rises a small fraction of what is shown
in the picture. Must be the turn of the ankle
that makes the difference, IE you can't do it
if you got nice legs!!!Ed

Sooo, your saying the dude in the green shorts has nice legs?

WTF?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Perhaps Mr Wieland had this in mind?
There can be no doubt that the shooter in this case is versed in African hunting and by all accounts understands "gun control"

Shooting Monkeys out of trees, right?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here goes-We around here look horrible in short pants,
but by jiminy I and others like tailgunner, the boy, grandsons.
shoot 12ga FH, 700HE loads with much more ME than a 700NE,
and muzzle only rises a small fraction of what is shown
in the picture. Must be the turn of the ankle
that makes the difference, IE you can't do it
if you got nice legs!!!Ed

Couldn't agree with you more ... I have a video of a friend shooting a 13lb No1 in 577NE with 750gr at 2150fps and it barely rises. Maybe not in the same class as an 18lb 700NE, but I find that level of muzzle lift difficult to comprehend unless hammed up a bit. I'll see if I can scan it in, but I just found pictures of the Century Arms commissioned and built 4 bore single being fired from back in 1996 ... 2000gr at 1250fps from a 21 lb rifle. Nowhere near that level of muzzle rise.
Cheers...
Con

Terry"s a been there and done that kind of guy. This is not my opinion, just the truth.

I really enjoyed his book, DG Rifles, and didn't feel "put upon" because my 404 wasn't discussed more extensively. We all knew the 404 was used by the "unwashed" more often than not. We also know that most game today is taken with guns without lavish engraving, gold embellishment, and ostentatious marblecake walnut.

These guns are bought for "show and tell" and seldom venture outside, much less near an airline cargo hold.

I also agree that hunting with a 600 or larger never rises above being a stunt. But hell' it's your money and this is America!

quote:

I also agree that hunting with a 600 or larger never rises above being a stunt

Adrian, You agree with whom? Who said that?

One more time, Terry said 577 bolt. He never mentioned 600 or larger. Is hunting with a 577NE double stunt? Or only a bolt equavelant such as 577 nyanti a stunt?

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Terry"s a been there and done that kind of guy. This is not my opinion, just the truth.

I really enjoyed his book, DG Rifles, and didn't feel "put upon" because my 404 wasn't discussed more extensively. We all knew the 404 was used by the "unwashed" more often than not. We also know that most game today is taken with guns without lavish engraving, gold embellishment, and ostentatious marblecake walnut.

These guns are bought for "show and tell" and seldom venture outside, much less near an airline cargo hold.

I also agree that hunting with a 600 or larger never rises above being a stunt. But hell' it's your money and this is America!

So you are just another shallow reader with a pinky-on for Terry Weeweeland's book.
BAH! PINKY-SCHWING!

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Terry"s a been there and done that kind of guy. This is not my opinion, just the truth.

I really enjoyed his book, DG Rifles, and didn't feel "put upon" because my 404 wasn't discussed more extensively. We all knew the 404 was used by the "unwashed" more often than not. We also know that most game today is taken with guns without lavish engraving, gold embellishment, and ostentatious marblecake walnut.

These guns are bought for "show and tell" and seldom venture outside, much less near an airline cargo hold.

I also agree that hunting with a 600 or larger never rises above being a stunt. But hell' it's your money and this is America!

So you think that hunting with a 600 is like jumping the Snake River? Now that's a stunt!!!!

Question... is a cordite load at the same velocity easier to shoot? I know they did not have a chronograph back then. maybe they did not go at the advertised velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Terry"s a been there and done that kind of guy. This is not my opinion, just the truth.

I really enjoyed his book, DG Rifles, and didn't feel "put upon" because my 404 wasn't discussed more extensively. We all knew the 404 was used by the "unwashed" more often than not. We also know that most game today is taken with guns without lavish engraving, gold embellishment, and ostentatious marblecake walnut.

These guns are bought for "show and tell" and seldom venture outside, much less near an airline cargo hold.

I also agree that hunting with a 600 or larger never rises above being a stunt. But hell' it's your money and this is America!

Shit!

Had I known that, I would have sold tickets!

Maybe Pop and I would have collected enough to take our 585AHR and 600OK on another DG safari

Adrian is true, right and correct on many levels, my friends.

We who visit and post at Saeed's fine website are in the tiny minority.

Still TW does tend to overgeneralize, as I have said a couple of times already in this thread.

Better to say, IMHO, that most cannot handle and do not use the monster bores, but that some, the anointed few, who are committed and determined, can and do use them, and to good effect.

Adrian (and I) are also correct in one other respect - it's your money and this is America!

Or as I like to say: It's a free country - still and barely!!!!