I had to provide chauffeur duties due to storm today and ended up waiting 8 hours in Barns&Noble.
I pages threw every gun rag on the shelves and almost ODed on caffeine, 50c refills.

The last rag, Rifle Shooter Jan/Feb had a 2 page piece by Terry Wieland titled "How Much Is Too Much?".
In an ironic twist, another mag had a piece by Craig Bodington in which he test fired the 700NE and
600NE and then hunted with the 600NE double. See his quote below.

Jeffe, note the upper case "NOT NECESSARY" by Terry. Fuel for the gun grabbin liberals or just a slap in our collective faces.

Here are a few paragraphs:

quote:

...

"Frankly, I do not believe anyone can really handle a rifle that big" Craig (Bodington) told me, and I agree. Regardless what anyone claims, they are impossible to actually hunt with.

NOT NECESSARY

The crazy thing is none of them are necessary. The 585 Nyati, which was developed by writer Ross Seyfried;
the 577 Tyrannosaur, the brain child of A-Square and star of the notorious internet videos; and now the
585 GMA - are all of the same category. If you make the rifle heavy enough to dampen recoil, it is too heavy
to hunt with; if you make it lighter, it will eventually destroy either itself or the shooter.

In the past 10 years, fascination with big big bores has grown out of all proportion to any actual hunting
that is done with them. It now seems to be some sort of test or manhood as too who can create the most outlandish and damaging cartridge, and shoot it and live to tell about it.

I don't know anyone who actually goes to Africa and hunts genuine animals that engages in this kind of competition; it seems to be limited to those who hang around ranges wearing camouflage and opine on the web.

...

Ouch! Perhaps someone will care to pen a rebuttal?

Ouch! Perhaps someone will care to pen a rebuttal?

Nope, I agree!

This sure won't make me popular, but there is a lot of truth in what he says. If he is making a blanket condemnation of all bigbore shooters, I would disagree. I do know a few just like he is talking about. They show up at the range, but have never hunted with them.
I do own a 458 Lott and a 450 Ackley, and am just starting on a 416 Rigby.
Butch

Butch, not big bore in general. here is a bit more, his last paragraph:

quote:

In my opinion - and this is an opinion - if you cannot accomplish what you need in the field against anything that walks, with an 11 pound 505 Gibbs, then you are putting your bullet in the wrong place and need to work on that, not look for a bigger rifle

So.... I guess the big Gibbs in ok in his book. Lucky for me, my max to date is the 505, I have not crossed his threshold- YET, but I am making plans ... oh, well, then, I did used to own that 6 bore muzzle loader ...

I disagree with much of what Wieland writes.

But I sure as hell agree with him on this point. A big .500 is the maximum hunting caliber for those rightly constrained by the concepts and qualities of useful and usable.

That's why I use one.

Plus, IMHO, TW is a good writer capable of a nice turn of phrase from time to time.

I would say of TW, as honesty sometimes forces me to confess about myself:

Sometimes right, and sometimes wrong - but never indecisive!

What did Dirty Harry say: "it's a wise man that knows his own limitations..."? Now we know what Wieland's are.

I own a 505 Gibbs, and my wildcat 550 and 577 on the Gibbs case, and I have shot the 600OK and 600&700 AHR hammers. And in September, a 700 H&H and the ex-Safari Kid Owens four bore doubles. All are controllable if you are up to putting in the practice with them.

The good news is, nobody died and left mr Wieland in charge of regulating Dangerous Game Hunting rifle calibers for the rest of us. At least, I haven't received written notification as of this date.

I'll just buy what taste and pocketbook determine, and put junior on "Disregard". I didn't check with him before buying my jag convertible, or anything else I've purchased. Too late to start now.

Rich

Rich,

So when are you going to "man up" and use something on dangerous game that is bigger than you itty bitty 450 Dakota.

I for one agree with mrlexma and evidently Mr. Wieland too. The fast 50s are truly hard to be beat for power to portability ratio.

It's not what you have shot, it's what you can handle when a big bull elephant or buffalo is barrelling down on you. IS: remember the photo of you shooting your 550 with BOTH hands off the stock? Probably don't want that with a Dugga Boy or elephant about ten yards and charging!

While I agree that "them" guns are to big for me, and most others to hunt with...

If people want to build them and play with or even hunt with them, why should I care????

I think Terry is spot on.

I would add that if you need a "gun bearer" to carry your rifle because it's too heavy, then you have no business hunting with it. The largest DR I've seen used by a client or PH is the 577 NE, and that only by a young PH who was exceptionally fit (hi Cliffy). Don't know if he still carries it since he got hit and mauled.

The purpose of a DR is a quick follow-up shot from the second barrel. Even Ivan has said his 577 NE might have been still in recoil when he got off the second barrel from his 450 NE on a close-in Ele charge.

Wow,

I guess those of us who have actually carried our own and hunted dangerous game such as Cape buffalo with these BIG big bores and have taken rapid follow-up shots must be mistaken.

My dad, at 70 years old must not have been able to carry his 585AHR or taken his Cape buffalo either this past September. He took two pretty quick shots though it is true that his buffalo hit the ground with the first shot and the second was merely a quick "hit him again" shot.

Nope, no one can handle more than a 30-06.
No one should drive a car with more than 90hp
We shouldnt provide care to people under the age of 15 or over the age of 65 - OH WAIT, Ezekial Emanuel, Rahm's brother and health advisor to the Obama said exactly that!!!

Yes, it is always a great thing when so called experts dictate what others should and shouldn't have; can or can not handle; need or do not need. I'm looking forward to my business drying up since all I do is take the impossible and make it possible and sometimes outright successful.

Necessary or not -- I think the obnoxiously outrageous big-bore shoulder-howitzers y'all are building along the lines of classic hunting rifle designs (pretty wood, rust bluing, engraving, etc) are just FUN!


Cheers
Tinker

Necessary. The definition of which will vary proportionately to the number of definers. It is true that most game will fall to calibers far lower in blast potential than a 505 gibbs; however, a 505 gibbs will down any critter with a well placed shot no matter the angle, speed, head up, head down, head to the side, and even the TX heart shot can brain a buff. This is the reason why any PH carrying one wants one. Unfortunately, 4 hooved hunter stompers rarely pose for the perfect shot, and when you are running away from said bovine freight train, your shot angles are almost always less than perfect. If you could handle a shoulder fired 20mm, by all means, use it. But as is preached so often, a miss by a howitzer is still a miss. There is definately a place for launching a 1000 gr lead ingot, otherwise nobody would make them.

John

Pegleg,

look at the picture again. My head is on the stock, and I am looking downrange. If you'd been there you would have seen me maintain control of the rifle, and work the bolt and fire another shot. The photo was at 1/4000ths of a second IIRC. Seven other people shot that rifle and load, and nobody dropped it, or had any issues.
The rifle has been to Africa, which is more than you can say I believe. It's going again in mid-April. I'll probably kill something with it just for you. Were you maybe one of those guys I used to whup up on at HBR in Oregon and Washington back in the day?


ScottS,

the best and quickest way to identify yourself as a true horse's ass and a writer more than a shooter; is to make some asinine arbitrary
maximum anything statement. To try and limit anyone else because of his shortcomings is insulting. Big bore hunting rifles come in all different calibers. It's called freedom of choice. I believe he's just a clown who thinks creating some controversy will make him look like an expert. Anything to sell magazines or books. The last twenty years, the only opinion I put much stock in by a writer is Craig Boddington. Seventy-some Safaris, that man knows his business! If it's done, I will take my AHR-MRC 600 OK to South Africa in April.

Gosh, if Ganyana had made that pronouncement, he'd have capped DG rifles at the 9,3x62!! All a real man needs.

take care gentlemen,

Rich

"look at the picture again. My head is on the stock, and I am looking downrange. If you'd been there you would have seen me maintain control of the rifle, and work the bolt and fire another shot."

Riiight. OK.

"The rifle has been to Africa, which is more than you can say I believe."

Wrong, you might check the hunt reports.

"Were you maybe one of those guys I used to whup up on at HBR in Oregon and Washington back in the day?"

Nope, I shot and still shoot the varmint classes. I especially like the money shoots!

Since when does being "Necessary" have anything to do with what we do? On many points I do agree with Wieland, but he goes too far. Long before I ever heard of AR I decided that the days of me carrying a 10-12 lb rifle with 24 inch tubes was long over. Exactly why I did the B&M series. No, one does not need a 600 or 700 anything to hunt with, but for those that desire to do so have at it and have fun with it. Personally the big 510s are more than enough to do anything one can ask, but still the rifles are too big, not the cartridge, the rifle, platform. I had the 500 MDM on the books to build for a couple of years before I did it, because it was going back up in weight, and length, exactly what I wanted to get away from. However the 500 MDM for caliber and cartridge is still on a small platform, Win M70 21 inch barrel, 8-8.5 lbs depending on the stock. A far cry from my much larger 510 Wells at 11 lbs and long, long 24 inch tube!

Are the Ultra big bores needed? Not in my opinion, and I don't want one, but that has crap to do with it! Needed is not part of the equation. If we still went along with what was needed there would not be half the rifles, bullets, cartridges and almost no improvements made of anything in our circles for the last 100yrs! I don't care much for them because the platform is too big, ammo weighs a hell of a lot which limits what one can take on the airplanes. But for those that wish to do so I would love to watch and encourage you to hunt with, shoot and have a damn good time with them! The only thing I ask of you is that you shoot it enough to be competent with it! Most folks on this forum are in that category as most of us are shooters first and everything else second. I have a buddy BikeRider that had a 600 OverKill recently and we were doing some test work with it. I enjoyed playing with it, very very nice rifle, wood work was excellent. We shot loads up to 2000 fps and I did most of the bench work with it. I thought it a great experience and enjoyed it a lot. I don't want one, but none the less it was BIG fun, so to speak. Needed in the field? No, but since when does need have anything to do with it?

Michael

its too bad Terry would make statements like this, as they reflect, poorly, on his actual experience with big bores.

If one can handle a 505 gibbs, its VERY likely that they can shoot a 577 NE, certainly not a "last 10 years" cartridge, and those weigh in, starting at, 13#.

and I have yet to handle a greater than 13# BOLT HUNTING rifle, that wasn't a medium.

Terry words are those of an egoist that has zero bigbore experience.

I would welcome him to shoot an unbraked 505 gibbs and then shoot my 550 express, side by side. My express weighs under 11#, which is less than most big bore double rifles, the icon of african hunting.

Its a sad day when an under strength gunwriter, with NO experience in true big bores, makes sweeping statements like this.

Sort of like zumbo's idiotic comments on the AR15

"Impossible to hunt with" .. for Terry, perhaps.

That is a good picture. that rifle is just floating, cool.
Timan

clarification
I have seen LOTS of mediums, with bull barrel, brake, zillion power scope, and bipods that easily weigh in moder than 12, and certainly pushing 13#

What i haven't seen is a high percentage of hunters shooting OFF the bench ..

It turns out that big bore shooters GENEARLLY are bullseye shooters, as well .. refer to the Hoot and Shoot live fire competitions. When you have to have BOTH score and time on a target, with 1/2" holes in it, and try to score the winners by time in their bulleyes, its kinda funny.

MOST bigbore shooters are experts at shooting. Some are, sure enough, but MOST guys that actually shoot these things CAN.

Most guys that don't, well, can't.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

Here are a few paragraphs:

quote:

...

"Frankly, I do not believe anyone can really handle a rifle that big" Craig (Bodington) told me, and I agree. Regardless what anyone claims, they are impossible to actually hunt with.

Ouch! Perhaps someone will care to pen a rebuttal?

I just watched "Tracks Across Africa". It was the episode with Bill Jones and I believe he was using a "not necessary" 700 Nitro Double.

After they killed the elephant Craig commented on how well he handled the rifle, quickly getting off a second shot.

I am looking forward to going to Africa. I have been scaling mountains after elk, goats, mule deer etc. all my life. Try to get my BMI below 10% and pack as light of gear as possible. My Heym 88 470 weighs 10.5 lbs and is a "chunk" but I like it any way.
I have always been told Africa is a cakewalk compared to mountain hunting. My thoughts have always been, who wants to carry this cannon. I suppose you do not treck very far from the jeep, and have some one else tote your gun.
Looking forward to Africa! Really sounds like fun and less time running bleachers!
I have always thought a 458 lott was more than enough gun until I began reading threads on this forum. It is difficult for me to imagine more is required.
But to each their own. Have fun!

It really is a shame the whole five second sequence isn't available on me shooting the 550 Gibbs. Of course, the fifty or so people there watched it live. I still need to get that rifle stock checkered and get a recoil reducer in the butt.

Pegleg: My youngest is here with his wife for breakfast and going shooting. He says to go to youtube and type in 550 Gibbs. You can see me shoot it live.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

Wow,

I guess those of us who have actually carried our own and hunted dangerous game such as Cape buffalo with these BIG big bores and have taken rapid follow-up shots must be mistaken.

Ditto Doc...

What a croc of shit...

Classic case of someone who can’t handle a big bore condemning anyone else who can…

I fired over 400 practice rounds through my AHR 600 OK before going to Zim…

All my shots on my buff were in the vitals and my own back ups shots couldn’t have been fired any faster than if I was using a lesser caliber…

My guide never even so much as reached for his rifle after seeing my shoot mine at targets and on game…

The article should say that if you really want to use a big bore than you should plan on really putting in some extra time and effort practicing with it in order to become proficient…

Just my .02…

Matt V.

What TH5000 said, plus one!

I guess we need to invite him to the Houston Shoot next February.

Rich

This is the same rifle in 550 Gibs with nominal loads being shot. I would say this is shootable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTnCqaHJSEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-fcgqT8QSU

And I thought Terry Wieland was a friend to Art Alphin, he helped write the book "Any Shot You Want". Mr Wieland bashed the T-Rex which was Art Alphins creation, what a turd and a stab in the back. I'm going hunting for the weekend in West Texas and only wished I had a 600 Overkill or a 700 HE to take for those dangerous whitetails.
Rodney.

To my mind, it's not just about what size or caliber of big bore rifle a hunter can handle.

Let me say up front that I haven't read this article -- only the brief quote provided above.

But I have read other stuff of Wieland's, including his book on DG rifles.

He tends to generalize too much for my tastes, such as when he asserts that NO ONE can effectively handle a truly big bore rifle. That's nonsense.

Many of us, who are dedicated and who put in the practice, can do it. But again, for me that's not the point.

The point for me is the law of diminishing returns and application of a fairly simple cost/benefit analysis.

I believe that returns diminish drastically once you go above a certain power level -- which I think is a "big" .500 caliber (such as my .500 A-Square) driving 570-600 grain bullets at 2,400-2,500 fps and achieving over 8,000 lbs. of muzzle energy.

My cost-benefit analysis (note that I said "my" analysis -- yours may be different) indicates that, once you get to that big-.500 level, going bigger gets you far more costs than benefits.

The sole benefit, which in my mind is questionable -- and if provable would be slight in any case -- might be the increased killing/disabling power that you might get from a cartridge that is bigger and more powerful than, for example, my .500 A-Square.

I know from first hand experience that a big .500 will paralyze a Cape buffalo and will drop an elephant as well as can be imagined, short of using a howitzer.

On the other hand, the costs of going to a rifle that is "bigger" than a big .500 are significant, and IMHO far outweigh such a questionable benefit.

The costs are:

(1) Much more recoil.

(2) A much heavier and slower handling rifle (needed to deal with the heavier recoil).

(3) Much bigger, heavier and harder to transport ammunition.

(4) Potential legal problems (under ITAR and AECA) when it comes time to take the rifle outside the USA, to Africa for hunting African DG, which are the only beasts on earth against which the use of such artillery is even arguably warranted.

Not to dissuade anyone else, but that's where I have ended up on this question.

So, I guess I agree with Wieland's conclusion - that monster bores are not necessary -- again not for me and the hunting that I do -- but I may NOT agree with his reasoning or rationale.

Personally I don’t think Terry was saying you shouldn’t shoot the ultra big bores if that is what you want. IMO what he was saying is, I think, that most of the really big bore rifles made never go anyplace but to a local range, and never see the bush of Africa. I believe that is a very true statement.

The fact is you may hunt with what ever floats your canoe, or you can simply enjoy going to the range and poking holes in paper targets. OR you can go to Africa and shoot an elephant or two with those cannons. Nobody, including TW, or CB is telling you otherwise. The opinion that those bores are not needed is also a valid opinion, and one I personally share. That however doesn’t hinder anyone else from doing it.

IMO, the rifles bigger than a 577NE are NOT NEEDED, for anything we hunt today, and in fact, the reasons they are not seen in the fields much is not many people are willing to put up with their draw-backs, and secondly, the price of them is a factor, that most will not front even if they could. I would say that for every double rifle chambered for an over 577 chambering, only maybe 5% of them will ever be hunted for anything that will even come close to justifying the chambering. Most will, as has been said, will never shoot anything but paper. Back in 1954 when the 458 Win Mag came out in the mod 70 Win, a lot of people I knew, including myself, went out and bought the first one they found on a dealer’s shelf. Of all the guys I knew who bought them never went to Africa with those rifles, again including me. I found the cartridge to not be reliable, and sold mine before going to Africa, and used an FN Mauser 375 H&H instead for my first buffalo. Today the largest cartridge double I own is a 470NE, and I’d rather have a little 10# 450/400NE 3” or a 450NE 3 1/4" because that is all I need for anything I want to hunt in Africa.

As many have said, what does need have to do with it? That is a true statement as well! Need has nothing to do with the choice of any rifle, or even the choice to own one at all.

Now that my opinion is known, before you start with the experience with ultra big bores, don’t even go there because I have shot just about everything that can be shot from the shoulder, and many that can’t and had to be hauled by a halftrack or tank, and I have never found a need to try to empress the local deer hunters at the range with a “LOOK AT ME” big bore. The very big rifles are fun to look at, and are a topic of conversation where ever they are displayed, but I sold both of the 577NE doubles I had, not because I couldn’t handle them but because they were too damn heavy to carry all day,and killed no better than a 500NE double, and were unpleasant to shoot, and I find the 500NE is a better choice for hunting any dangerous game on the planet, and even that is not a must for anything.

So as Jeffeosso says OPINIONS VERY, and the above is mine, and is free for the taking, or leaving!
Lett her fly, I'm dug in!
.............. ................

Gun owners and especially big bore shooters and collectors are political minorities which many of us do not appreciate folks in any public arena making comments expressing the lack of use or need for such rifles. Technically the actual need for any firearm for hunting use could be argued by some leftest political figures with the availability of grocery stores and resturants. The idea is not to give them any ideas.
Rodney.

quote:

I guess we need to invite him to the Houston Shoot next February.

Rich

Sounds like fun...!

I'd love to try some other big boomers...

Doubt I'd be able to make it though...

I'm a CPA and February is about the time I start working 24/7....

Never know though, maybe my clients won't notice I'm gone...?

Matt V.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Personally I don’t think Terry was saying you shouldn’t shoot the ultra big bores if that is what you want. IMO what he was saying is, I think, that most of the really big bore rifles made never go anyplace but to a local range, and never see the bush of Africa. I believe that is a very true statement.

The fact is you may hunt with what ever floats your canoe, or you can simply enjoy going to the range and poking holes in paper targets. OR you can go to Africa and shoot an elephant or two with those cannons. Nobody, including TW, or CB is telling you otherwise. The opinion that those bores are not needed is also a valid opinion, and one I personally share. That however doesn’t hinder anyone else from doing it.

Mac,
I can't argue with any of your opinions - they are your opinions and I see nowhere that you suggest what others should or should not do - fair enough.

If fourbore's quote is accurate, then this guy IS telling you and me what to use or not use and what I can or can not handle.

quote:

"Frankly, I do not believe anyone can really handle a rifle that big" Craig (Bodington) told me, and I agree. Regardless what anyone claims, they are impossible to actually hunt with.

That's claiming Matt, Tom, Rob, Rich and a whole host of others are liars. To me, this is the problem with such nitwits rather than spouting off about what is necessary or not. I intensely dislike other people telling me what I am and am not capable of doing. Don't you?

The Harry Callahan quote is: "A man has got to know his limitations."

I always thought that Terry could write decent prose, but his style is prissy and content is shallow.
Kind of irritating.

Imagine if Ross Seyfried wrote a book on DG rifles.

Anyway, 500s are my limit, but I prefer them at better than the anemic classic ballistics of a .505 Gibbs.
I am playing around with things like 12GaFromHell (badder than a 700 NE) and 20GaHellboy (badder than a 600 NE) just for kicks.
It should make me shoot a 500 Mbogo like it was a 22RF.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Gentlemen,

The % of the hunting population that would be interested in one of these cannons is probably 1 in 20,000. It is strictly a custom handloading proposition and a very custom firearm.
There is no way you are going to be able to source ammo for a 600OK or a 585 Nyeti or a 475 A&M or a 577 T Rex if it is lost on a mega $$$ hunting journey.
I suspect a great many of the folks that enjoy these guns are on this forum. Face it, it is a very unique group of individuals.
Hornady has made some of the African cartridges mainstream these days. There is a lot to choose from all the way up to the 500NE. off the shelf. I am not so sure the availability of Hornady ammo in Africa. I doubt your PH is going to have any of this wildcat stuff laying around as well.
If I was Weiland, I might have rephrased my dialog to parallel what I could source in a pinch; 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 470 Nitro, 404 Jeff, 416 Rem, 375 H&H and the various metric rounds and perhaps the 500NE.
After all the prep and practice I would take prior to a Safari, I would hate to have to use a camp loaner because my one off ammo is lost in transit and cannot be sourced.
My thoughts; Fire away!

EZ

I've got an idea. Let's invite Terry to the next hoot and shoot. $50 bucks a shot closest to the bull 5 shot string, offhand and open sights at 75 yrds. Me with the .600ok against Terry with his .500NE. I need the money!-Rob

Rob,

He would be paying for sure. I've seen you shoot!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I've got an idea. Let's invite Terry to the next hoot and shoot. $50 bucks a shot closest to the bull 5 shot string, offhand and open sights at 75 yrds. Me with the .600ok against Terry with his .500NE. I need the money!-Rob

How about doing the competition after you have been carrying your rifle on a 6 or 7 hour trek on elephant tracks? He was talking about usefulness in a hunting situation, not on the range. Craig said "handle" not "shoot accutarately".

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I've got an idea. Let's invite Terry to the next hoot and shoot. $50 bucks a shot closest to the bull 5 shot string, offhand and open sights at 75 yrds. Me with the .600ok against Terry with his .500NE. I need the money!-Rob

How about doing the competition after you have been carrying your rifle on a 6 or 7 hour trek on elephant tracks? He was talking about usefulness in a hunting situation, not on the range. Craig said "handle" not "shoot accutarately".

465H&H

Again, my 70 year old dad did exactly that with his AHR-built 585 - though not elephant but Cape buffalo. You're right, it wasnt a 6-7 hour trek ... we started on the buffalo track at 5AM and he shot his Cape buffalo at 4:30PM. True he is a longshoreman who still works on the docks every day ...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I've got an idea. Let's invite Terry to the next hoot and shoot. $50 bucks a shot closest to the bull 5 shot string, offhand and open sights at 75 yrds. Me with the .600ok against Terry with his .500NE. I need the money!-Rob

How about doing the competition after you have been carrying your rifle on a 6 or 7 hour trek on elephant tracks? He was talking about usefulness in a hunting situation, not on the range. Craig said "handle" not "shoot accutarately".

465H&H

With the exception of the big, big bores, 14 lbs and up, people for years have been carrying 12 lb doubles and Bolts - 500's etc.

What is it, that everyone has become so piss weak now that they can't carry a 10 - 12 lb gun and still shoot it accurately enough at the end.

Another "Drama Thread" .....

Gentlemen, I would propose that rather than cutting Wieland any slack regarding his written word…or for that matter and other “firearms scribe” that their words should be taken exactly as printed and when not absolutely correct that they should be taken to task for it. I am of the opinion that it is their responsibility to assure that their information is absolutely correct when published.

Believe me the anti’s will use their words exactly as printed whether correct, incorrect, or misrepresented.