Michael,

Will you and/or B/M have a booth at DSC would enjoy meeting you and discussing Rifles!


SSR

Cross

I will be there with Paul Truccolo, my buddy from Australia, and then hanging around the North Fork booth as well. Do try and look me up if possible.

I thought about bringing some B&Ms but I am a little to lazy to tote rifles. Might bring some #13 samples however!

Oh, and by the way everyone, you know that there will be LOTS of AR guys in attendance there, most from upstairs, and many of them RN FMJ fans, so I have decided to post a recent photo of myself working in the lab so everyone would recognize me at the show. Be sure and say hi if you see me!










Michael

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

I think we have reached a pinnacle

That's because we don't know what new questions to ask.

The current explanations, as manifested in the solids and noncon design, answer all our current questions.

Further advances will come when there are new questions which the current explanations don't answer.

That usually occures from observations of what we are calling field trials.

So, those of us who are going to be using the bullets in the field need to be careful observers.

Did the bullet do specifically what was expected?

Here's another way to "look" at the way of the future.

"Marcel Proust said, "The real act of discovery consists not in finding new lands but in seeing with new eyes."

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Here's another way to "look" at the way of the future.

"Marcel Proust said, "The real act of discovery consists not in finding new lands but in seeing with new eyes."

IBT

What a wonderful quote! It fits our situation rather well I would say. What I think more than anything of what we have done here on this thread is just that, opened up some eyes! Most of the discovery was already there, oh yes, we tweaked, we answered a lot of "why" questions, gathered our factors together, but more than anything by answering some of these questions "for ourselves" it has opened our own eyes! Mine have been opened for sure!

Now, it is very possible as we leave the lab work behind (somewhat anyway) and venture to the field, I am sure there will be new questions to be pondered upon, but I am pretty sure we have most of the basics covered! We are not quite out of a job, so to speak just yet, as there are other things we need to look at this coming year, such as hollow base penetration and pressures for one thing, and there are several more, but what I am looking forward to this year is the field observations of what we have done in 2010! I always tell my guys, "We Work this year--For next Year", and that is where we are now.

Excellent

Michael

Available now! Received the NonCons yesterday.



I have these available if anyone wants any PM me.

Michael

Michael - Unfortunately I dont have a .474" bore rifle.. - but just let me know when you receive the .510" bullets we talked about..

Well boys, it's 4 am, getting ready to load up and head to Dallas. I should be on the floor late afternoon, Friday, and Saturday. If you see me do stop me, I have a pocket full of bullet samples to get rid of! Hopefully see you there.

Michael

Have a fun and safe trip, Michael!

I would'nt recognise you without the (in)famous smile Michael!
Keep on doin it!
Best

Guys I have a report from DSC this morning that I simply must post! This was the greatest show I have ever attended! As most of you know, I am a NRA or Shot Show sort of chap, but no more! I am totally overwhelmed at the incredible hospitality from all AR members and the DSC group! So much so that I will absolutely make this an annual event not to be missed, and encourage all our Big Bore guys to do the same! This week I will become a Life Member of DSC, and will clear the calender of all other duties during the DSC and will be in attendance from this moment on!

I must tell you something else as well, the support of this thread, it's contents, and the work we have all done here has NOT gone unnoticed as I had began to think. The responses from our friends upstairs and on other forums was compelling and in overwhelming support! I had no idea that so many were paying attention, or even cared one way or the other, I was very wrong! There was not even one negative response from anyone about any of the work we have done, and nothing but strong support and endorsements for what we have been doing as a group. It was incredible. The hospitality of all AR members in attendance and all those I met while there was also fantastic. Absolutely the best show I have ever attended, and that has been a few! What an incredible group of fellows we have here on AR, I am very much taken aback!

I have returned invigorated and energized, with an entirely new attitude. We will start some new investigations into terminal bullet performance along with other issues as we are now ready to go into another stage of test work. For me, I will start investigating our noncons, more in depth. I am formulating a plan now to start this week (as soon as I catch up on real work) to start test work on some brand new CEB BBW #13 535 gr .510 NonCon HPs I received while at DSC. I want to test with witness cards starting at 1 inch inside the test medium going all the way to 10 inches every inch to study where, what, and how! I want to do this at different velocities in .510 and work especially around 2100-2150 fps for all the 500 Nitros out there, and then increase speed with some of the larger 510s we have. Also matching up with the 570 solids for POIs at 50 yds as well.

Then we will take it down to .474, and have some new .458s both 480 and 450 solids, 420 and 450 NonCons that we are going to work with as well. We are going to look at 416s a bit more, and all this we are going to look at some real BCs and determine, determine for those interested what they can do with the new NonCons down range a bit!

Also, any suggestions or questions any of you might want answered, please feel free to suggest, as I may not think of everything we might want to know here! We have a pretty good test facility and some good tools to work with, so let me know what might interest you as well! But do keep in mind this is big bore, and my interests lie there as well.

Michael

Michael,
I enjoyed meeting you and your wonderful family. As always talking to you was both informative and energizing.

DSC was wonderful and as you noted extremely informative, everyone I visited with were very friendly and helpful.

Hope everyone had a safe journey home and hope to meet all again.

SSR

CrossL

I very much enjoyed speaking with you as well! I think these are the things I enjoyed for sure the most is meeting a lot of you guys from AR, seeing many of my guys that I hunt with at HHK, Richard Cooke, and Ross Johnston, Paul Truccolo, and meeting Kwan and Karl S was a blast I tell you, and many others as well. What a damn party!!!!! Sam had other duties to attend, but I will insist he make a plan to come as well next year, along with some other pals of mine.

Something else I must go into as well is the boys from North Fork! Of course I have spent hours on the phone, many emails, and felt like I knew the guys pretty good already. Meeting for the first time was even more enlightening! These boys are on top of the situation, and they are not stagnate by any stretch! They are looking at new territory, new bullet concepts, and they are listening very closely to what YOU have to say, and your needs for proper bullets and proper designs! While they have one hell of a head start with an excellent bullet line to begin with, they are looking to improve upon already established designs and new ones as well! Of course yours truly is deeply involved in some of this for the B&M cartridges and I will continue to poke North Fork in the ribs and help anyway I can to move them to the future with some things! But for sure, let the boys at North Fork know what you are thinking and some of your needs, they listen and are very open to all Non Conventional wisdom! They are not stuck in "Conventional" ways, they are very bright young men, and very open to new ideas and on the hunt for ways to improve. We must keep an eye on North Fork, they are a growing entity in our world big bores, plus the others as well, of this I am 100% confident!

Michael

Michael, It was a pleasure! I got to meet Ms RSA 2003 and the future Miss USA 2023 !!!
Biebs

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Michael, It was a pleasure! I got to meet Ms RSA 2003 and the future Miss USA 2023 !!!
Biebs

Biebs




Absolutely a delight! I will be sure and tell the girls what an extremely wonderful compliment they got!

Michael

Hey Michael,

Glad to hear you had a great time - wish I would've gone - my lion and kudus were displayed.

Your enthusiasm is contagious - I'm joining up and will go next year, for sure!!!

Have a good week,
Mike

Mike

You will not be sorry, join up and let's go! I may even investigate getting us a booth or table for the show, if possible and bring some rifles for us to play with, have a place to sit and chat with everyone! We used LDKeiths-_Gray Ghost for home base this year, Paul was there, and We had a great time with David as well.

Absolutely the best crowd of chaps there you could ever hope to spend time with, all like minded and good fun! I am a convert with these guys for sure! Much different than THE other group further west! DSC crowd is a great bunch, and AR there in force and made it incredible! I will add that all the guys I know from HHK, Richard Cooke and some others all said to a man, "I never thought of seeing you here"-so it was quite a surprise when I showed up to them! Of course I was in a great mood as well, I started drinking buds from the time I got in the door until they closed at 6 pm, and then we went in search of more!

I am not kidding, just have not had time yet, but I am sending in for my Life Membership ASAP and will not miss another DSC Convention!

Michael

Well, I was not kidding, I am now a Life Member of DSC, and so is my Wife! Of course I am a Patron Member of NRA, and very quitely I will admit to being a life SCI also. But don't tell anyone about the SCI thing. Shhhhh!

Now back to business! While I was out I received some great things via UPS! First, I am now in possession of new .457 CEB BBW #13 480 gr Solids, and matching NonCons at 450 grs.



At many requests I had these done in .457 caliber. I will be testing these in my 458 B&Ms as well as 458 Lott. Either this week or next, I slated .510 caliber up first. Several things I want to do, first, of course Terminals of the 480 solid as compared to the 450 gr Solid version, then the 450 NonCons at a couple of different velocities. Another major thing I want to look at is POI with the 480/450 combination, and then as opposed to POI of the 450 Solid and the 450 NonCon???? Of course the 450 NonCon is LONGER, than the 450 Solid--I wonder how that will work with POI at 50????

Currently recall that POI with all the CEB BBW #13s, solid and lighter NonCon have been the same POI at 50yds--now we have a bit longer NonCon at 450 and a shorter 450 Solid??? We will find out.

These bullets look incredible, I am very pleased.

Yes, 450NE they go in the mail to you tomorrow!!!!! You should have them by Thursday! HEH

Michael

In addition to the .457s that come in, the .510s come in as well! 570 gr CEB BBW #13 Solid and matching NonCon at 535 grs!

These I will start testing this week at two different velocities at least. I want a low velocity of 2100 fps or so, 510 Nitro, then a higher velocity. Will test both NonCons, fairly extensively, and the solids.

On the NonCons I want to really find out everything about the petals or blades, starting 1 inch inside the medium, at intervals of every 1 inch until 10 inches--I have a lot of witness cards to get ready!!!!!!!






Michael

Michael,

I'll bring my 500 double as well as my 470 on the next trip down. Bullets look good and we will see how they work in the doubles.

Sam

Sam

You have returned? When did you get home?

Read above all the things I had to say about DSC---You will make a plan to go with us next year! End of Story! We had a blast, only one thing would have made it better, if you had been there with us!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

I'll bring my 500 double as well as my 470 on the next trip down. Bullets look good and we will see how they work in the doubles.

Sam

You better make a plan before I have them all shot up! They are not going to last long!

Michael

Michael,
You read my mind - now I'll lose 2 more nights sleep!
Can't wait - thanks so much!
Mike

Michael,

Go ahead and shoot them all up, its your shoulder not mine! I just thought you would want to try that 500 double again. Don't wait on me it might be another week or two before I have the time to visit.

I would like to go to DSC with you but it falls on the same dates as the fruit and veg show I go to in Savanna. Business before pleasure! Maybe I can do both next year.

Maybe 450NE will get to shoot finally if he isn't snowed in!

Sam

My mail man delivered my 474 non con and solids. They are far to pretty to shoot. I will try to find a big old boar to lay out with the noncon after duck season.

Thank you very much.

JD

Sam,
Snow or no snow, the #13's are gonna fly!

Wonder how a double does at 5 degrees?!

Sam

Yes for sure, do bring MY FAVORITE DOUBLE RIFLE IN THE WORLD--your 500 Nitro! I will send some of the CEB BBW#13s out to you today to get loaded! Also, I have to get a set of dies for 500 Nitro, can I make that work in the dillons? I have to load some CEBs for my buddy RCooke in Zim, he is going to give them a workout for us in 500 Nitro this season. Need some loads as well.

You must just figure out a way to do both veg show and DSC with us! Sort it out!



JD

Oh my man--do go bust a pig with one of the NonCons and get us a report back on the results! That would be EXCELLENT!!!!!! I am going to test some of the .474s in my .477 Capsticks, see how they do!
Very Welcome!



450NE

If nothing goes wrong bullets will be in the post today!

Bullets don't care about cold! I have shot bullets into bison at -33 degrees and -50 degree wind chills--shot muskoz at -20, I never heard any complaints from the bullets at all!
HEH

Michael

450NE,

You should be able to shoot a lot with that 5 degree cooling of the barrels. Let us know how they do.

Sam

OK--a few things, first I want to ask a question of you guys! There is a big rumor floating around--and it is a RUMOR--nothing confirmed, and the company might even be starting it to get reactions-who knows? Rumor is, a bullet company that has had a very successful flat nose design for many years now, is going to reverse that decision and discontinue the line in favor of going to a ROUND NOSE? Yes, that is the rumor. I will NOT mention the company until it is confirmed, as this might just be a rumor, but coming from a reliable source within the industry.

REASON? Complaints about FEEDING in certain rifles!

YES--FEED AND FUNCTION is VERY IMPORTANT in a dangerous game rifle! But if a factory is producing what it wants to call a DGR, don't you think they THE RIFLE company should do just a tiny bit more work to make sure that the DGR they are hocking off works with Dangerous Game Bullets that are properly Designed????

My background demands Feed and Function, not 95%--but 110%. But it must be with a bullet that will do the job most efficiently.

First, it its defined as a DGR--then it is a special purpose rifle--rifle company should spend that extra money to make it right--we as consumers will pay for that, we will have to pay more in the long run to make it right anyway! Do it right the first time out the door!

We should not sacrifice performance because a cheap rifle won't feed the bullet we need to be most successful in the field. Yes, that may be the cheapest way, but not the best way to do things!

If this is true, and becomes reality, I will never again use a bullet from that company, and if I find out what rifle they are targeting I will preach it every single day what a POS Bullet it is, and what a POS Rifle it is!!!! Damn well better not be a Winchester either! I have a strong feeling I already know what the rifle is they are targeting!

But--Like I said, Rumor and not confirmed by second or third sources!

So don't go nuts on me, I am already nuts to begin with!

HEH

Michael

Today I am going to start getting ready for test work over the next couple of days. I must get a couple of boxes filled with test medium, get it soaked proper, get a lot of witness cards done, get test loads ready and make a plan. Maybe get started shooting in the morning.

However, also I want to mention I am getting together a large North Fork order. Much of it for the B&M cartridges, but not limited to that. So if there are any North Forks that anyone wants or needs, let me know, the larger the order I can get together, the better the price we can get. Mine order will take care of the bulk, but more will help as well. I don't need anything up front, just let me know what you would like. I am still a few days out from placing the order, probably won't be able to get it together until next week.

Oh and by the way, before anyone gets to thinking too much--North Fork is not the company that rumor is about! So don't go there, the boys at North Fork are WAY too sharp for stupid decisions like that! In fact, the North Fork boys are pretty sharp chaps--they are going to have some real surprises for us coming up in the near future, and it won't have anything to do with RN solids, rest assured!

Michael

quote:

OK--a few things, first I want to ask a question of you guys! There is a big rumor floating around--and it is a RUMOR--nothing confirmed, and the company might even be starting it to get reactions-who knows? Rumor is, a bullet company that has had a very successful flat nose design for many years now, is going to reverse that decision and discontinue the line in favor of going to a ROUND NOSE? Yes, that is the rumor. I will NOT mention the company until it is confirmed, as this might just be a rumor, but coming from a reliable source within the industry.

REASON? Complaints about FEEDING in certain rifles!

the rumor may have originated through reading Midway shopping options. A particular flatnose solid that I like in 338, was listed at Midway on sale as "discontinued by manufacturer". so I bought some. Well, fu-i on them if they discontinue.

Their website still offers them, in any case, if it is the company that I think. And I suspect that they will continue to offer flatnose, too. Those of us with bottleneck cartridges don't have any problem with flatnose, period. And after all of the testing on this thread, who would put a roundnose solid in their Dangerous Game Rifle, if they had a choice?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

OK--a few things, first I want to ask a question of you guys! There is a big rumor floating around--and it is a RUMOR--nothing confirmed, and the company might even be starting it to get reactions-who knows? Rumor is, a bullet company that has had a very successful flat nose design for many years now, is going to reverse that decision and discontinue the line in favor of going to a ROUND NOSE? Yes, that is the rumor. I will NOT mention the company until it is confirmed, as this might just be a rumor, but coming from a reliable source within the industry.

REASON? Complaints about FEEDING in certain rifles!

the rumor may have originated through reading Midway shopping options. A particular flatnose solid that I like in 338, was listed at Midway on sale as "discontinued by manufacturer". so I bought some. Well, fu-i on them if they discontinue.

Their website still offers them, in any case, if it is the company that I think. And I suspect that they will continue to offer flatnose, too. Those of us with bottleneck cartridges don't have any problem with flatnose, period. And after all of the testing on this thread, who would put a roundnose solid in their Dangerous Game Rifle, if they had a choice?

Me for one!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Their website still offers them, in any case, if it is the company that I think. And I suspect that they will continue to offer flatnose, too. Those of us with bottleneck cartridges don't have any problem with flatnose, period. And after all of the testing on this thread, who would put a roundnose solid in their Dangerous Game Rifle, if they had a choice?

Me for one!

465H&H

465HH

You mean to tell me that after all this, having a choice, using a double, YOU would still use a Round Nose--over a proper designed flat nose?

If so, your head is far harder than I thought! I am damn glad you are not an Elephant--cause the bullet has not been invented for that job!




Tanzan

I am in 110% agreement with you--I have a choice, and have made it all the way!

Michael

Rules of thumb for bullet design:

Are we at the point where we can construct some rules of thumb for bullet design based on the caliber and monomaterial - i.e. - copper or brass, for FN and Noncon?

The rules of thumb should cover dimensions, shape, driving bands (number and location as well as dimensions) and weight.

Then, given any caliber, we would have the first cut bullet design, subject to development during testing.

quote:

REASON? Complaints about FEEDING in certain rifles!

YES--FEED AND FUNCTION is VERY IMPORTANT in a dangerous game rifle! But if a factory is producing what it wants to call a DGR, don't you think they THE RIFLE company should do just a tiny bit more work to make sure that the DGR they are hocking off works with Dangerous Game Bullets that are properly Designed????

Aha! I think I know the identity of potential Rifle Company X! They make a bolt action rifle that the Winchester Model 70 almost turned into about 1964, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Their website still offers them, in any case, if it is the company that I think. And I suspect that they will continue to offer flatnose, too. Those of us with bottleneck cartridges don't have any problem with flatnose, period. And after all of the testing on this thread, who would put a roundnose solid in their Dangerous Game Rifle, if they had a choice?

Me for one!

465H&H

465HH

You mean to tell me that after all this, having a choice, using a double, YOU would still use a Round Nose--over a proper designed flat nose?

If so, your head is far harder than I thought! I am damn glad you are not an Elephant--cause the bullet has not been invented for that job!




Tanzan

I am in 110% agreement with you--I have a choice, and have made it all the way!

Michael

Michael,

It depends on the circumstances of the hunt. If I were to use a solid for hunting buffalo in a herd or cow elephants also in a herd situation where too much penetration can lead to a pass through and an unintentional wounding or killing of a non-target animal, then yes I would select a RN solid where the chances of a pass through are greatly reduced. If hunting a trophy bull then without a doubt I would select a FN solid.

Just about all bullets have a purpose and I like to select the one that is most apt to do the job I need done. There isa no doubt that a FN solid will penetrate further in soft tissue of elephants than a RN solid. On head shots I am not sure that is the case espcially on angling shots through the skull.

465H&H

Hi 465HH

Hey pal! Well, I won't say that you don't have a valid point. I would not go that way, but as we have talked before about this same subject, there could be multiple "circumstances" that could be put forth from many different angles, none of which are either right, nor wrong depending on the exact circumstance. Sadly there are so MANY such scenarios that could play out in the field is one ever really prepared for EVERYTHING? So we do the best we think!

I don't get overly concerned about too much penetration and the possibility of hitting a non target animal. Even in herds, I have been in that situation many many times, I just chose to wait until a shot presented itself. Of course the possibility may be that the shot does not present! But I always wait it out, even say with a soft on buffalo! With todays premiums there is always a possibility that it will pass through as well! When a solid is needed on buffalo, that's the second shot, and many times up the south end on a North Bound buff! Of course today I believe with these new NonCons from CEB and North Fork, well the days of buff running off after the first shot very well may be over soon! YES!!!!! HEH........

As for the eles, well I may be a bit more conservative than you on angle shots thru the head. I probably would not take that shot unless I had to in self defense. I would either wait on the side or good frontal, or bust the heart open, and hammer down from there! Neither right nor wrong, just maybe a bit more conservative maybe.

Of course in a charge all bets are off, it's hammer time and at that point I doubt I am worried a lot about pass throughs, and will be looking for all the dead straight penetration I can get, and then want some more! If I have a pass through, I will sort that out on the next load out!

All bullets have a purpose, if we choose properly! I am sure one day I can find a purpose for a RN Solid, I just must keep looking eh? HEH

Hey, has the weather been too ugly in Idaho to do any shooting? Wondering if you have messed around any with the #13s I sent you? We can use a regulation report, accuracy, anything you got! How they work in your rifle would be good to know when you get a chance!

Thanks

Michael

Didn't you two have this very same discussion about 100 pages ago?

I don't want to hurt feelings or anything like that but you've got to be nutts to say you prefer a RN over a flatnose solid after all that has been done to prove which does the best job. Further more if you don't want a solid to penetrate completely then why are you using a solid in the first place. I think this is where a premium soft or non con would be perfect. A roundnose solid is not relyable enough to expect it to always tumble and stay inside and animal. I think many have screamed that the RN will penetrate fine for most shots and give pass throughs. If a bullet company wants to make nothing but RN solids then let them. They are going backwards in my opinion.
OK I've said enough!

Sam

quote:

why are you using a solid in the first place

Nostalgia no doubt ...

quote:

Didn't you two have this very same discussion about 100 pages ago?

I've been following (and refollowing) this thread for some time and can affirm that this discussion does sound very familiar, yes.

But what really amazed me was, from one of the earlier discussions, another person's statement to the effect that penetration wasn't that important, but that the bullet must have sufficient oompf to enter the brain. My question would have been: If the bullet didn't enter the animal's brain by penetration, then how is it going to get there? By entering the bloodstream?