First of all

THANX A LOT RIP for that GREAT GREAT Job you are doing !!

Again, NO, i don´t want a Bullet with MORE than 500grs. That CEB BBW-13 is more than ok for me.

As we know :

A 12" Twist Barrel will work shooting

- .500grs. BBW-13 (DGBR-W08)
- .350grs. RAPTOR

but,

what about a 450grs. North Fork Bonded ?
Will the same barrel also work using 350 + 500grs. HORNADY XTP´s ??

Using the Hornady´s will create a cheaper "Plinking" / Training Round.....

Best
2RECON

quote:

but,

what about a 450grs. North Fork Bonded ?
Will the same barrel also work using 350 + 500grs. HORNADY XTP´s ??

YES--Zero issues.

2Recon, have a small favor to ask. Dieter is on the hook with me for 9.3 and 475 B&M brass--last I heard it was to be done in January---I sent an email asking him about 3+ weeks ago, have not heard a word. Do you mind checking with Dieter on that? Thanks in advance, and so sorry to bother you with it!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

but,

what about a 450grs. North Fork Bonded ?
Will the same barrel also work using 350 + 500grs. HORNADY XTP´s ??

YES--Zero issues.

2Recon, have a small favor to ask. Dieter is on the hook with me for 9.3 and 475 B&M brass--last I heard it was to be done in January---I sent an email asking him about 3+ weeks ago, have not heard a word. Do you mind checking with Dieter on that? Thanks in advance, and so sorry to bother you with it!

Michael

@michael458,

NO PROBLEM....have to kik him too....still waiting for my 9,5x70 Cases...remember "confirmed delivery at....bla bla bla...."

Best
2RECON

2Recon

quote:

NO PROBLEM....have to kik him too....still waiting for my 9,5x70 Cases...remember "confirmed delivery at....bla bla bla....

HEH HEH--


Yes, I know all too well! LOL....

Thank You!

2RECON/Michael from Germany:

Jawohl, michael458 from South Carolina ought to know about those North Forks, 375 and 450-grainers, Cup Points and Flat Point Solids:
I'll take his word for it.
Good luck with that brass, 9.5x70mm Tornado, 9.3 B&M and .475 B&M brass.
Maybe some 12.7x68mm Magnum Tornado brass someday?

500-grainers will certainly deliver the goods.
500-grain CEB DGBR Solid is the +7000 ft-lbs KE champ so far.
For near-7000 ft-lbs plinking:
If you use the Hornady .500-cal/500-grain JFP (a flatpoint-softpoint-cup&core with large flat lead nose exposed):

Bullet length: 1.010", flat base
Start pressure: 2175 psi for jacketed handgun bullet
COL: 3.135" when crimped in factory cannelure of bullet for 500 S&W revolver
Powder: H322
QuickLOAD Predictions
92.0 grains >>> 2439 fps ... 6605 ft-lbs ... 58,388 psi ... 98% fill
93.0 grains >>> 2461 fps ... 6723 ft-lbs ... 60,415 psi ... 99% fill
94.0 grains >>> 2482 fps ... 6842 ft-lbs ... 62,511 psi ... 100% fill
95.0 grains >>> 2505 fps ... 6966 ft-lbs ... 64,767 psi ... 101% fill
96.0 grains >>> 2525 fps ... 7081 ft-lbs ... 66,922 psi ... 102% fill

I am not even going to ask bullet length of the .500-cal/350-grain CEB ESP ... will just measure it myself when it gets here.

Will try those Hornady bullets at the range also. Good practice for recoil management, the brakes are off now.
They will certainly be more than adequate for "barking" squirrels.
Just hit the tree close to the squirrel's head and the tree bark secondary missiles kill the squirrel. Less meat damage.
(Explanation of "barking" added for those who live in Rio Linda, CA.)

Or, if only a mere 5000 ft-lbs is needed for barking squirrels with the 500-grain Hornady bullet:

Accurate 5744: 65.0 grains >>> 2163 fps ... 5193 ft-lbs ... 45,402 psi ... 72% fill, no filler needed

This assures a 100% propellant burn and high efficiency for reduced load.
Using high volumes of slower powders produces too much unburnt powder flung into the treetops.
Wasteful!

Barking Squirrels are fun to shoot I bet. They are pretty ornery and could charge. I would want the 350 grain .500" Raptor @ 3k fps to ensure a good red mist. Try to get the sternum in the charge so you won't mess up the trophy for the head and shoulder mount on the wall. 350 @ 3k fps is 7k fpe. The raptor would be the best way to dump as much energy in that small of a space.

boom stick,
Barking a squirrel is the method of harvesting a sneaky one that is quietly trying to blend into the bark of a tree.
Usually blows them plumb out of the tree and they are dead from mere concussive head trauma when they land on the ground without a mark on them except for maybe a nose bleed.

You are right though, the vicious barking squirrel making all the racket does deserve the .500-cal/350gr ESP Raptor at highest possible velocity, in the center of squirrel mass.
Nowadays, the barking ones might have "mad squirrel disease" and you don't want to eat them anyhow.

I will have fun working up some squirrel loads.

You know what? Those CEB 500-grainer DGBR FN solids can be loaded to higher velocity for pressure than the Hornady Cup&Core 500-grainer. They have lower start pressure, can be loaded longer in the nose, when both are properly crimped, and occupy less case capacity.
Easily exceed 7000 ft-lbs with CEB whereas the Hornady 500-grainer requires higher pressure to do so.

I will just load the Hornady 500-grainer to 5000 ft-lbs, for squirrels and fun plinking without the muzzle brake: Accurate 5744

The 350-grain Raptors will be gentle enough without the brake also.
I will hunt without the brake, afterall.
Squirrels and such ...

Concerning that 500 gr .500 Hornady, while I am not so pleased these days with Hornady overall, this particular bullet is a dandy when kept to its working velocities. Back in the day, when I took the first .500 prototype for a little 5 day excursion to South Africa, the 500 Hornady was top of the list on that trip for testing. I had tested it up to 2000 fps at that time, 2006 and it tested well. On this trip I was running it at 1875 fps at the muzzle. I shot wildebeast, giraffe, zebra with it and had absolutely excellent results. It was hammering these animals far beyond what I thought it could do. I was so pleased with it, that it was my main consideration when I did the 50 B&M Alaskan in the lever guns. Of course now 6 years later we have even better for that in the 450 North Fork Premium, and of course the BBW#13s designed for the lever gun. But the 500 Hornady is still a winner on that front. Later I tested it up to 2100 fps with impacts at 22 yds, it still held together, did a good job, but it is reaching max terminal velocity at that point. Thin Skinned--Not a buffalo bullet bone smasher.

It does indeed make a fine cheaper practice bullet. So good, that Sam made a die that I can round that big flat soft lead meplat to feed in the various 50 B&M M70s. It does come up short on accuracy when compared to the BBW#13s anyway--but very satisfactory for practice work and close range. It's one of the few Hornady bullets these days that I still entertain.

I received yesterday all the new .500 NonCons with the wider cavity. I will probably start next week getting low velocity shear points with them. Line up is--335-365-450. Covers Super Short--Lever Gun--Big Gun! Look great! I expect shear to go below 1700 fps impact. And, what might be interesting is to see how they do with new tips as well---when we get them!

Michael

A nice plinker from Hornady. I'll keep it down to about 2150 fps, for squirrels and such.

Two days ago Dan said he was shipping some 350-grainers to me, and splitting the remains of the obsolete 400-grainer between me and Jim, for further experiments.

I spoke with Dan a couple of times today about some other things. I know they are running hard and fast. Maybe they come today? I think Jim will be able to shoot the 400 Raptors in that 1:9 twist he has coming without a problem. I think the targets above are about as good as you are going to do in the 1:12 with it. 350--1 hole!

I was trying to out shoot you today, but failed! Got more of a clover group! HEH.... Still good. In the 475B&M I ran that little 320 BBW#13 HP up to just a tad over 2600 this morning. Shoots better than I was able to shoot it, today anyway.

M

My half of the obsolete discontinued 400s shipped yesterday along with some new 350s. Now I just need my rifle in hand to shoot them. Unfortunately by early summer when my rifles arrive the two outdoor ranges I can shoot rifles at will be in the 95-105 degree temperature range from about 9am on. Definately will have to leave the house early and will only get an hour or so shooting in before I'm soaked in sweat!

Forgot to mention...Michael included some of the 500gr Hornadys that he'd run through Sam's pointing die (gave a nice rounded nose to the bullet) in the 50 B&Ms. I don't recollect exactly but I think they were loaded to 2050fps, or was it 1950fps, regardless they were a blast shooting a 200yd gong with iron sights. Made me a believer in that little cartridge! Reminds me, I need to pull Sam's pointing die out and get my stash of 500gr Hornadys ready to load up for practice use.

Very good!
Will wait and see how 1:9" twist works out for Jim.
400-grainer at 2700 fps is pretty neat.
Maybe a little faster MV will put enough spin on it to stabilize in 1:12"?
Or is there something just otherwise wrong with that bullet design?
Jim's 1:9" twist will tell.

RIP,

Fortunately you're spearheaded the reloading work so I'll have a pretty easy time of it...so other than the difference in loading 'likes' between you Brno 602 and my FN M98 Mauser we'll get to see the exact velocity loss I get with my 20" barrel vis-a-vis your 24" barrel.

Regarding the .500 400gr Raptors... I don't believe there's an issue with the bullet design OTHER THAN the bullet in practice does not follow traditional twist rate requirements relating to bullet weight and length. But hay...it's a NonCon so by its nature it doesn't follow tradition! So far regarding the BB caliber/weights...the 'new' tradition is that as SD increases above 0.200 SD the requirements are faster twist rates in order to stabilize the bullet.

Hum... Rethinking my earlier statement perhaps it still is all about bullet weight and length also another component we've not considered - that being the bullet balance point.

We know the ESP Raptors are long range accurate as proven by Dan's 600yd targets with the .375 caliber Raptor-Talon Tip tipped bullets. So we know there is nothing wrong with the design accuracy wise...and from the photographs Michael has provided in his Lab and most recently from his African hunt there is nothing wrong with the ESP Raptor terminal performance wise.

So perhaps it's the balance of the Tipped Raptor that requires a faster than normal twist rate, for its weight and length, to impart a faster spin rate to the bullet to maintain within flight stability.

Something to think about.

Jim,
I asked Dan about those 230-grain .375 ESP Raptor-tipped bullets.
They did well at 600 yards, sub-MOA by good margin, in a 1:12" twist .375 H&H IIRC.
However, at 800 yards they were noted to be keyholing, on a recent trial with Trapper, Dan's brother-in-law, doing the shooting, as before.

This is recent poop that has not been talked about on the "Terminal Thread."

I have a batch of those 230-gran/.375 ESP Raptors to try.

I am saving them for the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012. Will eventually have both a 12" and a 10" twist barrel to try.
12" on a CZ 550 Mag, 10" on an FN Mauser 98.

The .375/404 JS will get higher velocity than the .375 H&H, more RPS whether in 12" or 10" twist, 26" or 23".
Maybe I better leave them both 26" long until preliminary 1000-yard testing is done.

Need to find a 1000-yard range close to home.

The functional impact velocity of 1600 FPS will determine distance needed. I guess if you have a 378 WBY
Maybe no issues but in a 375 HH like he was using the velocity suffers at those distances due to BC and start velocity. Would be interesting to see results with an ogive tip on the 375 and at higher velocities and Traps 375. What would the trade offs be with the tips beyond 600 yards. My thinking was beyond 600 yards you would want a MTH bullet.

quote:

I asked Dan about those 230-grain .375 ESP Raptor-tipped bullets.
They did well at 600 yards, sub-MOA by good margin, in a 1:12" twist .375 H&H IIRC.
However, at 800 yards they were noted to be keyholing, on a recent trial with Trapper, Dan's brother-in-law, doing the shooting, as before.

This is recent poop that has not been talked about on the "Terminal Thread."

So the 230gr .375 Raptor keyholed at 800yds so it lost stability somewhere between 600yds and 800yd, likely somewhere in the 700yd to 800yd range. But 600yds is beyond what I'm comfortable shooting at game animals; keep mine under 400yds…preferably under 300yds.

FYI…I just dummied up the .500 caliber 350gr and 400gr ESP Raptors in QuickDESIGN, transferred them to QuickLOAD for some ‘what ifs’, and then over to QuickTARGET for distance data.
Cartridge: 12.7x68 Magnum Tornado – Corrected Case Capacity: 131.45grs H2O
Barrel: 20” barrel
Cartridge PMap: 63817 psi
- Ogive Tipped 361gr .500 CEB ESP Raptor W350: 1.480” length; 0.296 BC; 2846 fps @ 63813 psi; 25.87” drop at 300yds.
- Blunt Tipped 411.8gr .500 CEB ESP Raptor W400: 1.585” length; 0.315 BC; 2647 fps @ 6313 psi; 29.22” drop at 300yds.
- 430gr .500 CEB MTH Y01: 1.349” length; 0.426 BC; 2628 fps @ 63799 psi; 27.23” drop at 300yds.
Data Added: .500 caliber W Talon Tips
- Ogive Tipped Raptor = 11.0gr
- Blunt Tipped Raptor = 11.8gr
For Comparison
Cartridge: 308 Winchester
Barrel: 24”
Cartridge PMap: 62000 psi
- 180gr .308 Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30879: 1.490” length; 0.484 BC; 2593 fps @ 61933 psi; 27.20” drop at 300yds.

Perhaps Dan can give us a truer BC for the Tipped 350gr ESP Raptor. Regardless, I think we’ll do just fine with the 350gr version.

Edited and Updated 4th Time

Capo--
aside: I think the BC is a little lower than .363.

main point:
what puzzles me on the stability issues is that relative rotational speed INCREASES as the range increases. If a bullet is stable at 100-300 yards it should stay stable until it drops below 1200 fps (speed of sound). How does rotation increase? The actual rotation stays about the same in relation to time, but the time required to cover a distance increases, meaning that more and more rotations will take place over that distance. In other words, at slower velocities on the way to the target, the bullet will travel as if shot from a faster twist barrel, though a lower muzzle velocity.

Puzzle no. 2 is a comparison between the first pinnochio tips and the current ogive talon tips. The pinnochio tips put the center of gravity even farther back than the ogive talon and they also lengthened the overall bullet length, two items that would work against stability. Yet the first 375 pinnochio tests were more stable than the ogive-talon. That didn't make sense. Plus, the 375 tests were done with about a .235 Sectional Density, which is now being referred to in these threads as potentially unstable.

The mysteries need to be unravelled quickly.

I don't think the second longer range tests were done with ogive tips but the pencil "Pinocchio" tips.
I think the first generation pencil tips are higher BC but the ogive tips may be more for longer heavier bullets or slower twist barrels. Would be good to see ogive tips made like for the 9,3 and the new 6.8 SPC bullet.

Here are some loaded 85 grain 6.8 Raptors in the 6.8 SPC.

Tan,

I pulled the bullets back out and re-measured everything, rekeyed the data in QD and re-ran in QL and QT. Updated data shows 0.296 BC for the W350 Raptor and 0.315 BC for the W400 Raptor, both with Talon Tips inserted. My post above has been corrected/updated.

Also, it’s purely speculation on my part. But I speculate that the volume of the HP sufficiently shifts the bullets balance point of the Tipped ESP Raptors, whether using the HP BC or Ogive Raptor Tips, are running into inflight balance/instability issues similar to some of the early monometal VLD bullets.

Thanks, looks more on target

I'm using .300 BC when I do trajectory demos for 372 grain (365+7) .510" Raptors at 2800fps and 2900fps. Muzzle stability in my 12" twist is listed at 3.9, which would be rock solid in a 'normal' design.

PS: I'm using 1.7" as estimate length. What is your actual length?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tan,

I pulled the bullets back out and re-measured everything, rekeyed the data in QD and re-ran in QL and QT. Updated data shows 0.296 BC for the W350 Raptor and 0.315 BC for the W400 Raptor, both with Talon Tips inserted. My post above has been corrected/updated.

Also, it’s purely speculation on my part. But I speculate that the volume of the HP sufficiently shifts the bullets balance point of the Tipped ESP Raptors, whether using the HP BC or Ogive Raptor Tips, are running into inflight balance/instability issues similar to some of the early monometal VLD bullets.

PS to the last post:

A 372 grain Raptor at 2900 fly should fly close to our 416 350gns at 2800. 2" high at 100, -8 inches low at 300 and plenty of velocity for expansion/explosion.

Ha…guess I forgot that tidbit of information. It’s 1.480” for the Tipped W350 and 1.585” for the Tipped W400 using Ogive Talon Tip and the discontinued Blunt Nose Talon Tip respectively. I’ve updated my above post with this data.

An Ogive Talon tipped .510 W365 ESP Raptor ought to fly just fine from a 12" twist rate barrel.

Thanks again.

A 1.5" length 372 gn. will have a stability factor of 5.6. Should fly, and once the petals blow it will proceed very straight.

The new HP-Ogive tips for the 350 grainer are lighter.
Maybe only 7 grains instead of 11 grains for the "discontinued one" for .500 caliber HP.

I will measure and weigh the brass and plastic when I get it in hand,
not going to try QuickLOAD until I get hands on a bullet.

Wondering if the .375/230-grainer became subsonic between 600 and 800 yards?
Could that be?

Need good BC and MV of that bullet to see, maybe a
drop check for trajectory between 100 yards and 600 yards and a measured MV.

I can do 50, 100, 200, 300 yards at local range, still looking for longer range ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The new HP-Ogive tips for the 350 grainer are lighter.
Maybe only 7 grains instead of 11 grains for the "discontinued one" for .500 caliber HP.

I will measure and weigh the brass and plastic when I get it in hand,
not going to try QuickLOAD until I get hands on a bullet.

Wondering if the .375/230-grainer became subsonic between 600 and 800 yards?
Could that be?

Need good BC and MV of that bullet to see, maybe a
drop check for trajectory between 100 yards and 600 yards and a measured MV.

I can do 50, 100, 200, 300 yards at local range, still looking for longer range ...

RIP--
that's not a bad guess about subsonic. If the BC was as low as .300 then a 375 bullet could drop below the speed of sound by 800 yards. However, if the BC was really up around .500 as first reported then it would have been difficult to get down to the speed of sound.

PS: 372 grains= 365 + 7.

It does indeed make a fine cheaper practice bullet. So good, that Sam made a die that I can round that big flat soft lead meplat to feed in the various 50 B&M M70s. It does come up short on accuracy when compared to the BBW#13s anyway--but very satisfactory for practice work and close range. It's one of the few Hornady bullets these days that I still entertain.
Michael[/QUOTE]

@michael458,

thats the reason i asked about those Hornady´s.
If i have a 350grs.Raptor for all the thin skinned ones, and a 500grs. CEB #13 as a "penetrator" for everything "big" it makes real sence to use the Hornady´s loaded as "Training Rounds". They´ll be not used in a real Hunt, but for Training like here:
http://bulletin.accurateshoote...s=MSZU&submit=Search ( about 1,5 hour Autobahn from my home....depends on how many idiots there...)
It´s a REAL difference if you use a 1$+ Bullet (Hornady) or a 3,5$ one (CEB) for training only...

Best
2RECON

PS: Couldn´t get Horneber so far, try it again...keep ya posted

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
I asked Dan about those 230-grain .375 ESP Raptor-tipped bullets.
They did well at 600 yards, sub-MOA by good margin, in a 1:12" twist .375 H&H IIRC.
However, at 800 yards they were noted to be keyholing, on a recent trial with Trapper, Dan's brother-in-law, doing the shooting, as before.

This is recent poop that has not been talked about on the "Terminal Thread."

I have a batch of those 230-gran/.375 ESP Raptors to try.

I am saving them for the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012. Will eventually have both a 12" and a 10" twist barrel to try.
12" on a CZ 550 Mag, 10" on an FN Mauser 98.

The .375/404 JS will get higher velocity than the .375 H&H, more RPS whether in 12" or 10" twist, 26" or 23".
Maybe I better leave them both 26" long until preliminary 1000-yard testing is done.

Need to find a 1000-yard range close to home.

Hi RIP,

mayby just to give you some numbers...
Using the 9,5x70, 330grs.Lehigh or my own 316grs.MIG from a 28" BBL "Quick-Target" will not find the distance it goes subsonic. You are supersonic up to 2000 Meters roughly 2200yards.
BTW. the BC of the Lehigh is "calculated" .941 may be.... To me, it looks that .85x mayby .87x seems moore truth....at least out to a mile...

Best
2RECON

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The new HP-Ogive tips for the 350 grainer are lighter.
Maybe only 7 grains instead of 11 grains for the "discontinued one" for .500 caliber HP.

I just finished with the 'honey do list' so I unpacked the electronic scale and came up with the following weights for the .500 caliber W Talon Tips
- new Ogive Tipped Raptor = 11.0gr
- discontinued Blunt Tipped Raptor = 11.8gr

I've updated and corrected by earlier post.

Excuse please!
I was just parroting heresay until today on the weights of the new TALON W tip for the ESP W350 RAPTOR .500 CAL 350 GR bullet.

My package came today too.
I have the bullets in hand and am ready to QuickLOAD and real load.

I'll stick with my previous weight for the obsolete tip: 11.7 grains

The new bullet does have a nose cavity that is larger in diameter across the points of the hexagon, now about 0.280"
and the hole is about 0.460" deep.

The new tip snaps in more securely and has been improved to be less likely to dislodge.
No Super glue needed so far.

I measured the length of 10 of these new 350-grainers and every one was 1.109" long, to nearest .001".
All falling closer to 1.109" than 1.110".
About 0.1" shorter than the old 400-grainer.

Average weight of 10 of the brass bullets is 349.75 grains, all fell within 349.5 to 350.0 range.
349.75 grains +/- 0.25 grains, by the calculated average.
Or you could call it 349.8 grains +/- 0.3 grains.
349.8 grains was the mode. 4 out of the 10 weighed 349.8 grains.
I'll call it 350-grains henceforth.

Weight of the Talon W for ESP W350 RAPTOR: 10.3 grains
Gravitation and scales may be different elsewhere.

Length of the bullet with tip installed is 1.482".
This could be variable depending on how you press them in, but of little consequence.
I press them in against a piece of carpet over wood surface, nose down on carpet, to prevent damaging the nose.

I will test them without the tips,
then add the tips for final zero.

Instruction sheets came with the bullets.
I may violate the instructions by seating them long, with only one band fully engaged.
But I have them up against a compressed powder charge and solidly crimped.
That has been most accurate in my rifle last outing.
Both the M70 and the BRNO will get to try these.

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...s=MSZU&submit=Search

That sure beats Cabela's. Beats Disney World too.

So supersonic-subsonic transition likely not an issue with those .375/230-grainers.
My 500 A-Square with 750-grain Hornady A-Max at 2150 fps is supersonic past 1300 yards, IIRC.

I'll scan those instruction sheets from CEB.
Save the tips until the load is established, then add the tips for final zero:

Cutting Edge Bullets, LLC Phone: 814-345-6690

Best hand tool for pressing the tips into the hollowpoints?
Drill a hole in a block of wood, diameter of hole smaller than greatest diameter of tip,
and hole deeper than length of tip.
Press bullet tip squarely into hole until it snaps into hollowpoint?
Sumbuddy who know better way?

quote:

GSC 450 grainers out of SA at a pretty penny and with moly-coating. (Moly-coat is not recommended these days after seeing black-ring moly build up a decade ago and the demise of Barnes moly-bullets).

A a matter of record, GSC bullets are not moly coated. Our coating does not build up and can be shot interchangeably with naked bullets. We have been doing this proprietary coating (which is unique) since 1999 and there are only advantages and no downside.

Barnes used some other chemical on the XLC range and discontinued it after a short while. It also was not a moly coating and it shows that coatings are not created equal, regardless of what they are.

Gerard,
Thanks for taking 416Tanzan to task on that.

Yes, the Barnes XLC "Smurf" bullets were blue-coated.
Looked like a blue enamel and they said it was same as used on race car engine internals to reduce friction and increase engine life and performance.

Then they made a stab at copying the GSC HV bullet's driving bands by putting multiple cannelures on their X-Bullet.
Voila! The TSX bullet ... must have worked better for them than the Smurf bullet.

And all this time I too thought the GSC bullets were moly-coated ...
The grey coating on the GSC bullets does have areas of swirrling color-case-hardening hues sometimes: blue, purple, violet, magenta

No moly?

quote:

A a matter of record, GSC bullets are not moly coated. Our coating does not build up and can be shot interchangeably with naked bullets. We have been doing this proprietary coating (which is unique) since 1999 and there are only advantages and no downside.

Gerard, thank you for that clarification. I had seen a notice somewhere (CustomBrassandBullets?) that GSC bullets were going to be available without the coating.
Now, with better information, if I run across some either with or without the coating I will not hesitate to shoot them. The 450 is currently the sub-500-grain .510" bullet against which all bullets need to be measured. RIP has a nice video of a bull taking a shoulder hit and definitely feeling the impact.

The info on the Custombrassandbullets site is very old. We stopped shipping naked bullets almost three years back. We are not saying much about our coating because, so far, no-one has figured out exactly what it is and it is so good.