Yesterday my usual public shooting range was taken over by the local police for some of their training.
So I headed to a friend's pasture where there was a 50 yard berm I could drive to and shoot off the hood with sandbags, a standing rest.
Hanging weights were applied to the tripod to keep the wind gusts to 30 mph from blowing over the chronograph.
A stiff piece of cardboard was applied to the berm and weighted with rocks and scrap lumber to keep the wind from blowing it around.
Sun was good for an afternoon shoot, 68 to 70 degrees F.
I stapled up a target and commenced shooting.

Happy to say I found an excellent load for the 430-grain CEB MTH of .500 caliber.
And loads easily exceeding 7000 ft-lbs with the 500-grain CEB DGBR solid.

Four days earlier I did some preliminary shooting at the local range when it was not occupied by the police department.
I also had some old load data from last year for the 500-grainers.
I added the Benchmark to that basis, on up to 100 grain charge: More than enough for 7000 ft-lbs.

Rifles By Rusty McGee:
No.1: Winchester M70, 9#-3 oz. dry weight
No.2: BRNO ZKK 602, 9#-6 oz. dry weight
Both have 24" barrels, 1:12", PAC-NOR No.6 sporter contour, 8-lands/grooves, 0.785" diameter at 24" muzzle.
Both have McMillan stocks.
No.1 has preferred 14.5" LOP.
No.2 rifle has a Vais brake and requires a LimbSaver slip-on pad to get 14.5" LOP.
No.1 rifle is more accurate so far, but both are getting more accurate and slightly faster as they break in.
Or maybe just powder lot variation from last year to latest.

Rifles used:



Leupold scopes take a licking and keep on ticking:



Smudged muzzles:



Dummies of ammo used:





Fireforming more than 100 rounds of fully-loaded .338 Lapua Magnum with backward 250-grain Hornady RNSP and 90 grains of IMR-4831
has not hurt the barrel of rifle No.1.
I got 50 more rounds fireformed with help of rifle No.2 yesterday.

I revisited the 100-grain H322 load with 430-grainer: 2 shots to zero



The champ bullet from CEB so far:





All loads used the Lapua brass after fireforming, full-length resize, trimmed to 2.647" (max 2.657"), and GM215M primer.

Startling finding with the CEB 400-grain ESP when shot as a solid with hollowpoint seated into the powder charge:
Great velocity loss and erratic velocity spread, as compared to the same bullet as Raptor,
with 11-grain black Talon Tip installed (Both used 86.0 grains of H4198.):
Date: 4-10-12
400-grain ESP as solid: 2488 fps MV with 122 fps Extreme Spread for 5 shots
411-grain ESP Raptor: 2632.8 fps MV with 13 fps ES for 5 shots
I guess the powder gets blown into the "hollow base" and ignites erratically or not at all as it travels down the barrel.

Date 4-7-12 (3-shot ave.)
411-grain CEB ESP Raptor
H4198 powder:
82.0 gr >>> 2521.3 fps ES 12 fps
83.0 gr >>> 2544.3 fps ES 12 fps
84.0 gr >>> 2579.3 fps ES 11 fps
85.0 gr >>> 2593.3 fps ES 26 fps
86.0 gr >>> 2621.7 fps ES 2 fps

Date: 4-7-12 (3-shot ave.)
430-grain CEB MTH
H322 powder:
96.0 gr >>> 2530.7 fps ES 5 fps
97.0 gr >>> 2563 fps ES 8 fps
98.0 gr >>> 2584.3 fps ES 43 fps
99.0 gr >>> 2622 fps ES 17 fps
100.0 gr >>> 2627.7 fps ES 18 fps
and
on 4-10-12, 5-shot ave.,
100.0 gr >>> 2651.2 fps ES 30 fps: Most accurate

500-grain CEB DGBR loads with H322, Benchmark, RL-15, and RL-17 to follow after I do some chores ...

Would be interesting to see what happens if you stick some dacron in the hole to test that theory. The .500 is a big hollow point.

Chapter 2:

500-grain CEB DGBR, a monometal FN brass solid:
The ones I have are the ones with equidistant band spacing, 4 bands.
They work well with the 49-10 when seated long at 3.520" COL, 2 bands showing,
but can be seated to 3.270" with 1 band showing.

All loads below with this 500-grain bullet:

4-7-12, 3-shot ave.
H322:
96.0 gr >>> 2496 fps ES 22 fps

4-10-12, 3-shot ave.
H322:
96.0 gr >>> 2508 fps ES 36 fps
97.0 gr >>> 2537 fps ES 9 fps
98.0 gr >>> 2560.7 fps ES 1 fps

6-11-11, 5-shot ave.
Benchmark:
92.0 gr >>> 2362 fps Sd 15 fps
93.0 gr >>> 2374 fps Sd 12 fps

6-11-11, 3-shot ave.
Benchmark:
94.0 gr >>> 2381 fps Sd 21 fps
95.0 gr >>> 2425 fps Sd 16 fps
96.0 gr >>> 2432 fps Sd 20 fps (most accurate, 0.401" 3-shot, 50-yard group)
97.0 gr >>> 2473 fps Sd 7 fps

4-10-12, 3-sot ave.
Benchmark:
96.0 gr >>> 2456.3 fps ES 32 fps
97.0 gr >>> 2493 fps ES 5 fps
98.0 gr >>> 2505 fps ES 15 fps
99.0 gr >>> 2523 fps ES 27 fps
100.0 gr >>> 2533 fps ES 14 fps

4-10-12, 3-shot ave.
RL-15:
104.0 gr >>> 2471 fps ES 64 fps
105.0 gr >>> 2499 fps ES 10 fps

4-10-12, 5-shot ave.
RL-17:
110.0 gr >>> 2380.4 fps ES 20 fps

3 of the shots from RL-17 load went into 0.588" at 50 yards,
but I have not yet improved on the initial Benchmark load for accuracy.
These rifles are sensitive to charge, or I am!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would be interesting to see what happens if you stick some dacron in the hole to test that theory. The .500 is a big hollow point.

Yep, big hole, wide and deep, hexagonal about 0.25" across the points, and about 0.45" deep:



Add Dacron fluff filler to the base of this high-tech bullet?
That would be tricky to compress a plug of it and get it to stay in place while loading it over a full or slightly compressed load of powder.

Oh well, these are obsolete, did not work well in Doc M's terminals. Discontinued.
A redesigned .500-cal/350-grain ESP Raptor is reported to be working well in Africa right now, in the .500 MDM Ultra.
I will try some of those 350-grain Raptors for varmints and plains game.
I will not be using them as solids unless CEB starts making a flat base plug for them too.

quote:

Startling finding with the CEB 400-grain ESP when shot as a solid with hollowpoint seated into the powder charge:
Great velocity loss and erratic velocity spread, as compared to the same bullet as Raptor,
with 11-grain black Talon Tip installed (Both used 86.0 grains of H4198.):
Date: 4-10-12
400-grain ESP as solid: 2488 fps MV with 122 fps Extreme Spread for 5 shots
411-grain ESP Raptor: 2632.8 fps MV with 13 fps ES for 5 shots
I guess the powder gets blown into the "hollow base" and ignites erratically or not at all as it travels down the barrel.

RIP,

I seem to recollect Michael loading the 460gr BBW#13 Hollow Base bullet from the 500 MDM with a slightly compressed loading of RL-10x - slightly higher loading volume than with the 460gr BBW#13 HP NonCon - so you'll likely need to up your loading of H4198 to closely match the velocity and pressure of the Tipped ESP Raptor loading.

Also...why not just insert a couple of the Flat Tips in the Raptor HP and then cut them off just below the meplat...might eliminate the issue you're having with the lighter loading.

Also...your call - I could send you a baggie with some of the pre-prod Radiused Tips that Michael is using in Africa right now - just let me know.

Otherwise...your loadings are looking pretty good…Especially the 430gr MTH bullets!

Jim,
Thanks, but no thanks on any further tinkering with that obsolete 400/411-grain Raptor.
Will look into the new 350-grainer ... after the autopsy/necropsy pics come in from Doc M.
I will give the 23 bullets of obsolete variety, 400/411-grainers, I have left over, a go with H322 for accuracy testing.
Raptor testing.
H322 worked well with the MTH 430-grainer.
Those 350-grainers will probably need the faster H4198.

RIP,

I did identify from one of my notes page that Michael had problems with 4198 and the 460 gr HB bullets from the 50 B&M even with compressed loads. Seemed to be an issue specifically with the powder.

Perhaps you might try a couple of rounds with Solid nose forward using 322 before you discount the 400gr ESP Raptor. Anyway just a thought.

I look forward to the tipped accuracy testing - definately will let us know if a faster twist rate is needed to stabilize this bullet.

@RIP +Jim,

about 10 times the difference (13 to 122) in ES looks REALY looks like a powder problem.
The 11grs from the "Tip" can´t make THAT difference.

Best
2RECON

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
@RIP +Jim,

about 10 times the difference (13 to 122) in ES looks REALY looks like a powder problem.
The 11grs from the "Tip" can´t make THAT difference.

Best
2RECON

I agree that it is a powder issue... Likely a combination of the specific powder selected as well as the volume used. The ESP Raptor HP NonCon end is a fairly large cavity...when used with the HP NonCon within the case this large cavity increases the total powder capacity of the loaded cartridge vis-a-vis the same bullet/cartridge combination with FN Solid seated within the case. Very simple but restated simply for those who have not considered that this additional space could cause powder burning issues with some powders. I believe that RIP encountered this wild ES variance due to the lower percentage powder fill rate with the HP NonCon seated within the case. Likely had he increased the volume of 4198 to reach the same percentage of powder fill rate he'd have had both a similar velocity and ES figure. At least that's my perception.

I am at the 2012 NRA Show/Convention in St. Louis.
Met Dan Smitchko and son Nate at their booth.
Discussed the Raptor a bit.
Will tell more later.
Watched Dan get interviewed by America Outdoors.
It will show up some Saturday at 1 PM on Time-Warner.
Also attended the leadership forum from 1 PM to 6:30 PM yesterday, addressed by:

Wayne LaPierre
Chris W. Cox (MC)
Mr. and Mrs. Mitt Romney
Rick Santorum
Newt Gingrich
Rick Perry
Bobby Jindal
Scott Walker
Charles Grassley
Roy Blunt
Eric Cantor
Darrell Issa
John Bolton
Ken Blackwell
Oliver North
AND MORE ...

"Fast and Furious" and Eric Holder were at issue, hot issue.

Getting back to exhibit hall with a camera better than my Iphone today.
More CEB reports to follow.

Sounds like you are having fun. Tell Dan and Nate Boomie said Hi.
Keep us posted on all the highlights.

Dan and Nate say "Hi" to Boomie.

Yesterday Wayne Lapierre and Oliver North made another appearance, after a concert of patriotic chorus and orchestra music.
Then it degenerated into an hour of Larry the Cable Guy's pottie humor.
Tough act for Glen Beck to follow, but he managed to pull it off.



I have some more 400-grainers to tinker with pending arrival of some of the 350-grainers.
I'll try to keep it down to 63,000 PSI with a compressed load of H322.
H4198 may be the right one for 350-grainers.
BTW, I see no use for the ESP as a solid.
I will use them only as "softs" with or without the tip.
NonCon of low BC or high BC.
Good for varmints, sheep, or anything else up to one ton on the hoof.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Dan and Nate say "Hi" to Boomie.

Yesterday Wayne Lapierre and Oliver North made another appearance, after a concert of patriotic chorus and orchestra music.
Then it degenerated into an hour of Larry the Cable Guy's pottie humor.
Tough act for Glen Beck to follow, but he managed to pull it off.



I have some more 400-grainers to tinker with pending arrival of some of the 350-grainers.
I'll try to keep it down to 63,000 PSI with a compressed load of H322.
H4198 may be the right one for 350-grainers.

The dude on the left has some pedigree and has got to have a better BC than the one on the right, and I can't believe that it won't be STABLE. It is less than three calibre lengths and ought to be STABLE in about any reasonable twist.

416Tanzan,
Yep, that 350-grain idea is growing on me.
I hope CEB has some in stock to send to me, soon as they get back to PA.
Otherwise I will wait for production.
The shorter length will allow more powder capacity.

To save me a search through the "terminals" thread, did Doc M have any problems with the 411-grain Raptor other than the length being too much of a case-capacity eater for magazine use?

At about 1.585" length, it is considerably longer than the 1.345" 430-grain MTH, which is very accurate in a 1:12" twist, at +2600 fps MV.

Re. 411-grain Raptor:
Were there any gyroscopic instability issues suggested by "Terminals" testing at McCourry Institute of Ballistics?

Was Michaels twist 1 in 14? He had some stability issues I think with that twist tip installed and the 400 grain prototype.

RIP,

If I recollect correctly Michael had trouble stabilizing the 411 gr Raptor, with the Flat Talon Tip inserted, in both the 50 B&M and 500 MDM - 18" and 19" barrels respectively and both have 12" twist barrels. Additionally he was concerned with the powder loss in the 50 B&M with the Flat Talon Tip inserted.

It'll be interesting to see if you have the same issues with your 12" twist 24" barrel.

Thanks.
Now I am again hot to trot those 411-grain Raptors in a 1:12" twist at +2600 fps.
A faster MV = faster spin.
Numerically: Bullet RPS = FPS MV in a 1:12" twist.
I know that 86 grains of H4198 will do +2600 fps without compression, and 3 shots of that in the BRNO rifle No.2 had a 2 fps extreme spread.
I plan to remove the muzzle brake from that and try for accuracy.
Or just try it in the M70, proven accurate already, with no muzzle brake.

I have 23 of those 411-grain Raptor-tipped bullets left.
Will do 5 with the H4198, 86.0 grains,
then use the last 18 with H322 starting at 90.0 grains and working up until compression won't allow anymore powder.
Whatever I can get in there.

QuickLOAD predicts 92.0 grains H322 will give:
104% fill
2623 fps
53,712 PSI

Should be impossible to exceed 63,000 psi with H322, since the 411-grain Raptor encroaches on case capacity so much when seated to my 3.510" COL.
Any longer COL is not practical with this bullet, no matter the magazine length.
Hence, the 350-grain Raptor might be better for the 49-10 too.
I'll see from a benchrest soon.

Look forward to your results!

RIP

Excellent work my friend! I have been reading some, but not posting as this week has been rough. Actually started a post yesterday here, but was so much distraction never finished and deleted. But this is really good detailed work you do! Seems these rifles are shooting no doubt about it.

Few things I see some ??? on that I might can clear up.

quote:

Startling finding with the CEB 400-grain ESP when shot as a solid with hollowpoint seated into the powder charge:
Great velocity loss and erratic velocity spread, as compared to the same bullet as Raptor,
with 11-grain black Talon Tip installed (Both used 86.0 grains of H4198.):

Lower velocity with the NonCon HP side in the case, shooting the Raptor as a solid is COMMON throughout all the cartridges/calibers/bullets.

As I look back on some terminals for instance the .338 225 Raptor tested NonCon at 2742 fps and the Solid at 2640 fps, same load. 9.3 210 Raptor NonCon 2938 fps Solid 2836 fps same load. 458 300 Raptor Noncon 2581 fps Solid 2512 fps, same load. So that has been common. I reckon its because case capacity has increased, changed because the HP being down.

As for erratic ES, I have not seen that here, all has been consistently close ES solid or NonCon.

Did you shoot the 400s for accuracy? At 50 yards I was only getting 2-3 inch groups, nothing acceptable about that. All my barrels in .500 are PacNor 1:12s. Probably, Maybe 1:10 would do it. These 400s are just not stable in 1:12. Don't worry with them. Since they did not shoot for crap, I never bothered to test, went straight to the 350 and that is what I used across the pond.

However, the 400s are NOT NEEDED. Can't contain the 350 in any animals I shot the last couple of weeks anyway--350s are one hole at 50 in the 500 MDMs.

Talked to Dan this morning, I see you have 350 ESP Raptors on the way!

Michael

Michael,
Yep on the 350-grainers.
Thanks for all the research and fieldwork.
I will not be using anymore of the obsolete tips on the 400-grainer.
I got same as you in same 1:12" twist with those tips installed, 2 to 3-inch 3-shot groups at 50 yards with the tips installed.

I must say I see no reason to shoot the ESP backwards as a solid, when CEB has the better solid bullets for DG.
Just too much possibility for that unpredicatble powder burn with a hollow base,
at least on my one load,
maybe others too.

I will use up the last of the 400-grainers without tip, just to get 400-grain data points for the 49-10, thank you very much (buy a donkey if you are still in Afrikaans).

And again, that .500/350-grain ESP-Raptor with new tip:

RIP

No thanks needed for research. My pleasure.

Every tip we have to date now is "Obsolete". All new tips from 9.3 Up will be like the ones I used this trip. All will have the small HP drilled down the middle.

As for tips under 9.3 caliber, I think those are smaller, and more fragile than the larger ones, I don't "Think" there will be issues with them, but these will also be tested over the coming weeks for LVSP--Low Velocity Shear Points.

ESP Solids! I Concur. In fact, in my 500s here, 50 and 500 MDM I doubt I will be getting anymore Raptors for those. Reason is, the 50 B&M case capacity is better served with straight up NonCons and Solid BBW#13s. While the 500 MDM can utilize the Raptors, with the solid end down pushes powder to the side making it easier to bulge the case, so one can only use so much of ones case capacity, while using a flat base NonCon powder compresses straight down. For me personally in the big bores I like straight NonCons and Solids.

Now flip the coin, I think the Raptors are THE KICK ASS BULLET from 375 caliber down, and in the calibers I shoot from 9.3 down, it will only be Raptors, and loaded both ways, NonCon Tipped and Solids for uses that I can find with a solid in smaller bores.

Michael

@RIP,
@michael458,

please help me understand something.
From my understanding the reason to take a BIG BORE is to have / to shoot a BIG meaning havey Bullet.
Please don´t get me wrong, phantastic results using the "Raptors" in 9,3...everything ok, but WHY 350grs in .500 caliber???
Is there a "job" a 350grs.Raptor can do better than a .500grs.FN Solid ??

Best
2RECON

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
@RIP,
@michael458,

please help me understand something.
From my understanding the reason to take a BIG BORE is to have / to shoot a BIG meaning havey Bullet.
Please don´t get me wrong, phantastic results using the "Raptors" in 9,3...everything ok, but WHY 350grs in .500 caliber???
Is there a "job" a 350grs.Raptor can do better than a .500grs.FN Solid ??

Best
2RECON

2Recon

quote:

Is there a "job" a 350grs.Raptor can do better than a .500grs.FN Solid ??

In fact, there is a job, and probably several, that the 350 Raptor as a NonCon can do better than the heavier bullets, either NonCon or Solid. Thin Skinned Dangerous Game. Lion, bear, leopard. For that matter, a Lighter Weight NonCon would do the same. NonCons love velocity. They cannot have too much. Cats are very sensitive to velocity. Any of the big bore light for caliber Raptors, or light NonCons will absolutely turn a cat inside out, and then some. Bear as well. And of course the NonCon end is great for plains game species one might happen upon.

Neither RIP nor I care too much about the solid end of the Big Bore Raptors--I would not trade a solid end of the Raptor for any of the very serious big bore standard heavier BBW#13 Solids. While the Raptor as a solid can have a place, and would do well on some heavier species, it still cannot perform to the level of the big Bore BBW#13s. In some cases however I can see where having a few of these in the mix could be useful.

That's my take, I will let RIP give his as well.

Michael

Oh YES !!

Thin skinned......
Sorry, but when i see .500"caliber i only imagin game like Buffalo Elefant.....
Yes, the big fife AND some plains game....
So, why not making a 500grs.Raptor ?
Having the "Tip" you´ll get a better BC, and still have the punch....
You´ll loose some fps....

Best
2RECON

2RECON,
ESP Raptors do not act twist stability wise like standard design bullets of equal weight and/or length. The 350gr ESP Raptor with Talon Tip inserted will stabilize in a 12" twist barrel...the 400gr Raptor will not. I have a 9" twist rate barrel in my 12.7x68 LM which should stabilize the 400gr Raptor but would not stabilize a 500gr Raptor. To stabilize a 500gr Raptor would require a twist rate in the 6.5"-7" twist which would be a custom special order barrel...and then it might not work as the 500gr Raptor with Talon tip inserted might require an even faster twist rate.

Michael & RIP,
I can certainly understand why you've no desire to use the FN end of the 350gr Raptor as it has way to short of a smooth nose length. I think the FN length of the 400gr Raptor would have been sufficient for very good depth of penetration. Guess I'll have to see if they'll work accurately from my rifle...when completed...

The non con end of the Raptor seems to be able to get as much straight penetration as needed and do incredible damage along the way. The jagged edges of the base are ripping all the way through quite far. Dan told me a 6' hog was taken with the 9,3 raptor shot in the ass and came out the jaw of a hog and dug out of the ground. What more vicious penetration is needed on anything other than Elephant? I think the Raptor would be lethal on hippo, buff ect. What would you prefer on your non elephant game? Full diameter jagged edges? Double diameter soft mushroom? X type monometal expanding? There is some purpose and niche for the solid end but I am guessing 90% will be used hollow end forward.

The usefulness of FN end of the ESP Raptor is directly related to the amount of the smooth surface from the upper driving band to the meplat...which Michael has proven is critical to the total depth of penetration the bullet will give...reference the original BBW#13 FN Solid Lever Gun bullet's smooth nose length vis-vis the revised Lever Gun FN Solid bullet's smooth surface nose length. The longer smooth surface equals greater depth of straight-line within-mass penetration.

From my perception the .500 350gr Raptor FN nose end's short smooth surface nose length will limit the depth of penetration which limits its usefulness on DG. While the .500 350gr Raptor HP NonCon nose end should be good for all frontal and side angle shots but just might come up short for the departing tail-to-nose follow up shots. Unfortunately field use of the bullet in both situations is required to prove or disprove my perception.

Michael...Thank you for your extensive work with the .500s - the peanut gallery need not waste our time as you've already proven what will work for us.

Michael and RIP...A personal thanks for the 400gr accuracy work- hopefully I'll be able to contribute the success or failure of my 9" twist rifle with this bullet in the coming months. Still with the multitude of CEB BBW#13 FN and HP NonCon weight bullets, the 430gr MTH HP Spitzer, the now successful 350gr ESP Raptor, plus the various NF bullets...there just may not be a need for a heavier Raptor in this caliber.

quote:

the 430gr MTH HP Spitzer,

We don't have one of these in .510", but are currently required to get GSC 450 grainers out of SA at a pretty penny and with moly-coating. (Moly-coat is not recommended these days after seeing black-ring moly build up a decade ago and the demise of Barnes moly-bullets).

quote:

Guess I'll have to see if they'll work accurately from my rifle...when completed...

pole sana, Capo, that it is still not complete.

2RECON,
Agree with Doc M and Jim, can't add much to that!

I'll give the 350-grain ESP a go as a solid when I get them (on order).
Will add extra powder to fill that big hole in the base!

I was ready to shoot today, but weather bad.
Expect better tomorrow.

I pulled my last dummy 400-grainer and came up with 24 of them to shoot as NonCons.

I also found that my throat is just barely long enough to seat them out one more band.
Only one band gripping in neck, with strong crimp over full case/compressed powder except for lower charges of H4198.
QuickLOAD predictions have been very good so far, here are some more:

400-grainers: 1.208" bullet length, as NonCon with no tip added, COL 3.236"

H4198:
87.0 grains: 97% volume >>> 57,474 psi >>> 2623 fps
88.0 grains: 98% >>> 59,410 psi >>> 2647 fps
89.0 grains: 99% >>> 61,535 psi >>> 2672 fps
90.0 grains: 100% >>> 63,648 psi >>> 2697 fps

H322:
94.0 grains: 101% >>> 50,177 psi >>> 2638 fps
95.0 grains: 102% >>> 52,123 psi >>> 2665 fps
96.0 grains: 103% >>> 53,988 psi >>> 2690 fps
97.0 grains: 105% >>> 56,044 psi >>> 2717 fps


460-grain CEB DGBR-HP W07 a flatbased-hollowpoint NonCon: 1.328" bullet length, COL 3.375"

H322
89.0 grains: 100% >>> 52,840 psi >>> 2464 fps
90.0 grains: 101% >>> 54,843 psi >>> 2492 fps
91.0 grains: 103% >>> 56,954 psi >>> 2517 fps
92.0 grains: 104% >>> 59,185 psi >>> 2541 fps
93.0 grains: 105% >>> 61,382 psi >>> 2565 fps
94.0 grains: 106% >>> 63,808 psi >>> 2589 fps

I have three shots each of all those loads above, 42 rounds, ready to shoot.
No problems with compression. Maybe not as much as QuickLOAD says.
How the bullets are seated, one-band in neck on the 400-grainer,
460-grainers have a base-sealing band (flat base) below the neck, and one band in neck,
compressed powder and crimped, secure:



I made myself a throat measuring dummy, and did calculations with the reamer drawing to see where the leade became 0.500" in diameter.
Having the 400-grainers only about 50-thou off the rifling may help accuracy?
The 460-grainers have a greater jump.
Parallel-sided freebore on the reamer is only .252" long, but there is other slop built in
(1-degree 30' leade, plus-chamber length tolerances, 45-degree taper from case mouth to freebore, etc., etc.):



BTW, the BRNO is a slick feeder with that super-large meplat on the reversed brass flatbase from SSK.
I had one of them in a sample obtained from Doc M. Thanks. Made a nice tool.
The base band is tapered baseward a wee bit on that, but is .500" like the other bands at max OD. A very short boattail.
The M70 did not like that 95% meplat, but I won't hold that against it.
It is my accuracy rifle so far.
I may not want to take the brake off the BRNO just yet.

Tan,
It is totally my fault that my .500 wasn't completed this time last year; I'm likely a gunsmith/gunmakers nightmare with build changes during a build. Steve, my rifle builder, has a box full of stuff that I've changed my mind over...a 12" twist .500 caliber barrel, finish reamer and gauges, dummy cartridges, a rifle scope, rings and bases, etc.

So one year later I now have two rifles approaching completion, rather than one, both with custom bases containing integral pop-up ghost ring sights with the bases configured for interchangeability of the scopes between the two rifles, multiple scopes with rings preinstalled for both rifles to assure exact eye relief, new custom 9" twist target quality barrels for both rifles, new completely different finish reamers, gauges and dummy cases, and finally the extra parts for the second rifle to match the first. A paired set of high quality English Walnut blanks cut 15+ years ago in Australia and hand picked to handle the recoil of 50 caliber rifles are aging atop the gun safe; both rifles will 1st wear B&C synthetic stocks with full length aluminum bedding block and wait for wood stocks at a future date. It just takes time to get everything collected when not using off the shelf parts.

Jim,
My taste in rifles has evolved over the last decade. However, I like provisions for a sling on the rifle,
and QD rings for backup scope switch,
so I have not quite reached the enlightened state of Saeed.
However, I no longer mess with walnut and barrel clutter, and have also grown bored with double rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

the 430gr MTH HP Spitzer,

We don't have one of these in .510", but are currently required to get GSC 450 grainers out of SA at a pretty penny and with moly-coating. (Moly-coat is not recommended these days after seeing black-ring moly build up a decade ago and the demise of Barnes moly-bullets).

The 430gr MTH .500s aren't 'off-the-shelf' and are spendy as well; RIP and I split a 300 bullet special order but RIP has demonstrated they're extremely accurate and Michael has demonstrated great performance in his bullet box so the money is well spent.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
My taste in rifles has evolved over the last decade. However, I like provisions for a sling on the rifle,
and QD rings for backup scope switch,
so I have not quite reached the enlightened state of Saeed.
However, I no longer mess with walnut and barrel clutter, and have also grown bored with double rifles!

on the slings and QD rings...my rifles will have both...and barrels will only have a banded front sight, no rear sight or barrel band sling ring. I'm not in a hurry to complete the wood stocks but custom M98s just ought to have nice wood to be drapped in...which they will have one day in the future.

Average velocity for three shots and the extreme spread for those three shots,
recorded at the range, added in red below after the QuickLOAD predictions.
It was 38 degrees F the night before,
and 58 degrees F at the range when shooting commenced,
62 degrees F when it ended.
Fluffy white clouds and some sun, 4-22-2012:



400-grainers: 1.208" bullet length, as NonCon with no tip added, COL 3.236"

H4198:
87.0 grains: 97% volume >>> 57,474 psi >>> 2623 fps: 2638.3 fps, ES 11 fps
88.0 grains: 98% >>> 59,410 psi >>> 2647 fps: 2667.7 fps, ES 2 fps
89.0 grains: 99% >>> 61,535 psi >>> 2672 fps: 2699.3 fps, ES 15 fps
90.0 grains: 100% >>> 63,648 psi >>> 2697 fps: 2651.7 fps, ES 29 fps

H322:
94.0 grains: 101% >>> 50,177 psi >>> 2638 fps: 2654.0 fps, ES 9 fps
95.0 grains: 102% >>> 52,123 psi >>> 2665 fps: 2671.7 fps, ES 10 fps
96.0 grains: 103% >>> 53,988 psi >>> 2690 fps: 2695.3 fps, ES 12 fps
97.0 grains: 105% >>> 56,044 psi >>> 2717 fps: 2708.7 fps, Es 4 fps


460-grain CEB DGBR-HP W07 a flatbased-hollowpoint NonCon: 1.328" bullet length, COL 3.375"

H322
89.0 grains: 100% >>> 52,840 psi >>> 2464 fps: 2416.3 fps, ES 15 fps
90.0 grains: 101% >>> 54,843 psi >>> 2492 fps: 2447.7 fps, ES 12 fps
91.0 grains: 103% >>> 56,954 psi >>> 2517 fps: 2461.7 fps, ES 8 fps
92.0 grains: 104% >>> 59,185 psi >>> 2541 fps: 2484.3 fps, ES 12 fps
93.0 grains: 105% >>> 61,382 psi >>> 2565 fps: 2503.3 fps, ES 5 fps
94.0 grains: 106% >>> 63,808 psi >>> 2589 fps: 2522.3 fps, ES 21 fps



All velocities recorded 15 feet from muzzle of Rifle No.2, the BRNO with muzzle brake and slip-on pad,
looks like it might provide some competition for the M70 Winchester after break-in:

Target pic, 50 yards/3 shots, only best group with each bullet-powder combo tried, gotta find sweet spots:



No extra sissy pads required.
I will try without the brake when I decide on final loads, for final zero.
Recoil was nil with this setup.
I had to give 49-10 Rifle No.2 another chance.
Maybe it is getting its bore smoothed out by the CEB brass bullets.
Fouling was negligible after 42 shots fired,
and now I have only one rifle to clean.

It seems that my rifle dislikes the H4198 and 400-grainer,
but it does like the 460-grain NonCon-HP with H322.
Also it seems that H4198 does not like to be compressed at all, in my rifle:
Add 1 grain of powder and the velocity drops by 47 fps!
I'll give it one more try with 350-grainers before I give up on it.

Very nice work RIP! It's a good thing that I stocked up on H322 as it appears to be working extremely well from your Brno. I particularly like the very low ES with superb accuracy delivered at under 58K psi! Definately AWESOME!!! My velocities will be 100-150 fps lower due to my 20" barrel but between your current workups and Michael's trove of information I should be able to zero in on some extremely accurate loadings...of course all defendant upon my being able to shoot worth a hoot.

Thanks, Jim.
I ought to get some 350-grainers soon and get back to singularity 3-holers.
Something strange about that obsoleted 400-grainer, but I won't trouble my head over that unless I get really bored.
I have one bullet left for posterity, stored away in a feed-dummy round.

Also something strange about H4198.
It is faster and bulkier than H322, and more erratic in the 49-10, poops out when compressed any at all.

H322 looks and acts like Benchmark extruded to slightly smaller diameter, chopped finer.
It might be the same extruded powder chopped so finely that it looks like, on a quick glance, a spherical/ball powder,
and burns faster than Benchmark, due to the smaller cut,
more surface area exposed to flash per volume of powder?
Just guessing.
It responds well to mild compression.
No drop tube needed.
Meters well, of course.

I'll have a shootoff between H4198 and H322 with the 350-grainer before I give up on the H4198.

Also need to have a 500-grain bullet shootoff between H322 and Benchmark, now that the braked rifle is tightening up, or I am.

It might just be that H322 is the only powder needed for the 49-10.

I don't know whose worse on my pocket book right now...you, Michael, or Dan!!! I have a cabinet full of .500 caliber bullets with no rifle to use them in - yet - and just ordered two boxes of the 350gr ESP Raptors along with two extra bags of Talon Tips while email corresponding with Dan! I think I need to enter into some kind of a 12 step program or maybe just get to the range pretty soon and shoot some targets!

Of course, 2RECON may need some slower powders for his heavy bullets.
But 350-500 grainers ought to cover it for me.
That long range tactical and closer range "whisper" stuff is done with .510-caliber, eh?
Unless there are some VLD heavies in .500-caliber on this side of the pond ...

Jim,
Don't do it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Of course, 2RECON may need some slower powders for his heavy bullets.
But 350-500 grainers ought to cover it for me.
That long range tactical and closer range "whisper" stuff is done with .510-caliber, eh?
Unless there are some VLD heavies in .500-caliber on this side of the pond ...

Jim,
Don't do it!!!

RIP .500 caliber VLD heavies is only a Dan contact away! But...the .500 are all about hunting...extremely accurate hunting...but hunting none th less.

I suppose if you wanted stem-thru-stern penetration on elephant then a 530-550gr BBW#13 FN Solid might be required...otherwise the current 325gr-500gr bullets we currently have are more than sufficient.

I had thought that the next generation .500 caliber MTH might need slight shape tweaking and weight increase - 440-450gr - but looking at the accuracy you're getting from your M70 and 602 rifles pretty much lays that concern to rest.

Oh yeah...some caffeine and lunch took care of the 12 step program. My son does want to do some target shooting but right now the two outdoor ranges are running 100+ temps by early AM so we'll have to wait for a break in the temperature which could be some months away...so I guess it'll have to be the 45acp at the local indoor range.