Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for bison, water, and cape buffalo?

A handi rifle chambered in anything is not adequate for anything. Unless you plan on beating them to death with it.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for bison, water, and cape buffalo?

Still not a Big Bore!!!

Scott you can do the math. with a 26 inch barrel and max loads at 65Kpsi you won't hit 2100 fps with that weight bullet. . Assuming your going for the 400gr 2150 fps 450-400 formula you will need about .250 inches more case volume. I've had this idea also and simply could not get there at sane pressures. Just bore the handi-rifle to a 50-140 and load hot. Then yes it will be reliable on the big bovines. I had a neat idea to make a longer cylinder for a 500S&W, make longer brass( from a 50-140 and put a 24 inch barrel and rifle stock on the gun. Long story and a huge amount of work. just think a six shot DGR! Old idea but max reliability and what a conversation piece.
Will a 500 S&W work sometimes? Yes just like the 45-70 will work sometimes. Its unfortunately just a stunt.-Rob

Adequate...maybe...ideal...no.

Fine for Bison as they are much narrower and not as tough. You might feel inadequate in Africa with the Handi rifle.

That's a picture of my .500 mag handi rifle. As you can see i had the barrel shortened to "16.25. I don't think i'd use it for dangerous game though.

quote:

Originally posted by jerkface11:


.

that's kind of cool, in a NASTY MEAN 4wheeler/wounded pig recovery look

jeffe

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/417102155

read this...

either long throat it or make a custom bore rider and get better than 50 alaskan performance because of the higher preasures

shoot a 700 grain bullet about 1800 fps i dont think you will get any arguments from any animal if you put it in the right place...

but if you are going to africa and spending $20,000+ you might want to buy a $800 375 h+h

quote:

you will need about .250 inches more case volume.

you will get more than enough bu sticking the bullet out more...

Rob,

I don't think I could handle the recoil from a hot loaded 50-140 smokeless handi-rifle...OUCH!

Thank you for your insight, I was afraid it wouldn't be up to par, so to speak. The appeal of the handi-rifle in 500 S&W is that it is a "big bore" I can afford. I was hoping that with the lower velocity that perhaps, just perhaps, the 500 S&W handi-rifle might achieve the mythical penetration spoken of on Garrets website (I think that is were it is posted, the information stating that the 45-70 outpenetrates "elephant guns").

Biggestgun,

I did not realize that a bison was smaller than other buffalo. How much bigger is a cape buffalo than a bison. I realize that bison are "push overs" not even as tough as plains game, but how much tougher is the buffalo?

Just exactly what pressures are you running with a 700 gr bullet at 1800fps out of a long throat .500 S&W. Can you post a chrono sheet pse.-Rob

Rob,

I missed that one! The math, and testimony from actual shooters of the 500 S&W Handi-rifle, suggest that 1800 fps is a 60+ ksi loading with a 440 gr hard cast. I shutter to think what the pressure would be with a 700gr pill going 1800 fps in a 500 S&W would be!!

this frankenstein idea has not come to fruition yet but i would loooove to do it. if you did an oal of almost 2.45 it will be fast enough...

of course i would love to show chronny results but i gots a few more bridges to cross first



with a longer oal and a 12" longer barrel you should far exceed 1200 fps

http://www.lsstuff.com/ranger-rick/

scott...you stick most of the bullet OUTSIDE of the case...leave somewhere between 1/2" to 1/4" in the brass.

boom stick,

You load it. You shoot it. You chronograph it. You pressure trace it. You provide calibration certifications for all of the aforementioned equipment, and post the results. Then and only then would I attempt to shoot anything like that.

BTW, the math model suggests that 1300 - 1350 fps would be your max load with a 700gr pill at 2.45" out of the Handi-rifle's 22" barre; (pressure 65 - 70 ksi). That is a heavily compressed powder charge along the A Square way.

well whatever the fps would be i would feel pretty safe

I concur that a 440 at 1800fps is doable in a 26 inch barrel. 700 grs at 1800 is a QUICK TRIP TO THE MORGUE out of a .500 S&W. Just ain't gonna happen more than ONCE!
Bottom line is if you can't hit 2100fps with a 400 gr bullet with a SD of >.3 it ain't a DGR. Just because you can chuck lead doesn't mean its anything other than a stunt gun. Same goes for the 45-70.
A guy reportedly killed an ele with a .223 shooting solid brass bullets by shooting it in the head. Does that mean the .223 is a DGR?-Rob

my enthisiastic 3/4 full attitude is most likely getting the best of me...scott...if i buy the bullets will you shoot them?

You guys should look at the thread on the 12gaFH
with the loads Ed has been putting through his NEF/H&R rifled 12ga - 600grn @ 1800fps in .729 cal

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
boom stick,

You load it. You shoot it. You chronograph it. You pressure trace it. You provide calibration certifications for all of the aforementioned equipment, and post the results. Then and only then would I attempt to shoot anything like that.

.

oh wow...
if that's not the pot calling the kettle.....

what velocities were you purportedly getting out of a 405 winchester in a lever gun, scott...

and stating that weatherby brass is good for 90k...

wow... boomy, your loads must really be wild for scott to throw the ---it's to hot-- cards

jeffe

o.k o.k. o.k... a thousand hail mausers...

boom stick,

Well I would have to get a 500 S&W Handi-rifle first, but I would do load development for you with your bullets if I had the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for cape buffalo?

in a word.....No!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for cape buffalo?

in a word.....No!

might be a fun pig gun, though

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for bison,

It doesn't take much to kill a bison.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Would a Handi-rifle in 500 S&W shooting 440gr hard cast flat nose bullets be adequate for cape buffalo?

in a word.....No!

might be a fun pig gun, though

Jeffe,
I've killed feral pigs with a .243.....it's not a difficult task.....I used a 12 Ga slug too....

It worked and I also used a 44 Mag Super Blackhawk.....

The best use of a Handi Rifle is in 223 for prairie dogs.....darn things shoot great!

50 -140 handirifle or TC encore. Hot loads. Better yet 12 ga FH short. 1000 grs at 2100 fps. Smooth BORE ZERO TWIST. IT WILL FLAT GET THE JOB DONE!!!!. Penetration will be in a word awesome!-Rob

Dan,

quote:

It doesn't take much to kill a bison.

No more than it takes to kill a water or cape buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Dan,

quote:

It doesn't take much to kill a bison.

No more than it takes to kill a water or cape buffalo.

And you would know that how? Google?

George

Originally posted by ScottS

quote:

Biggestgun,

I did not realize that a bison was smaller than other buffalo. How much bigger is a cape buffalo than a bison. I realize that bison are "push overs" not even as tough as plains game, but how much tougher is the buffalo?

quote:

Dan,

quote:
It doesn't take much to kill a bison.


No more than it takes to kill a water or cape buffalo.

I find it amazing that in an elapsed time of 15 hours between posts you go from curious to expert. Freaking amazing!

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Google?

George

I thought it was a "no-no" to shorten a rifle barrel shorter than 18 inches. ????

pegleg,

16" is the Federal mandated minimum.

Tell me more George? Cape buffalo are killed with single and double taps from Kalashnikovs. Bullet placement is key with all animals hunted. Dan knows this full well, I am sure.

JMJ888,
Curious yes, expert NEVER. I haven't used a rifle for hunting anything that falls within the power density enevelope of a 500 S&W Handi-rifle; therefore, my post (curiousity) as I figured that some here have at least some experience with a weapon of that nature. How many buffalo have you killed, and with what weapon(s)? As I recall George has shot a bison (don't know how big he never report a SCI score for it) with a 30-30, and a cape buffalo or two with a 470 Capstick and, I think, a 375 H&H. I have watched small bison cows absorb as many as 3 solid lung hits with a 338 Win mag and stay very active for as long as 4 hours. In my experience the smaller caliber (say less than .4") work well only when the CNS or hear itself are hit directly regardless of the animal being a bison, water, or cape buffalo. Miss these two vital regions with the smaller caliber and the animal gets pumped up and is a real bitch to put down. Hence so many cape buffs lung or liver shot with 375s and taking a dozen additional hits to drop.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:


Cape buffalo are killed with single and double taps from Kalashnikovs. Bullet placement is key with all animals hunted. Dan knows this full well, I am sure.

...

How many buffalo have you killed, and with what weapon(s)?

so, now scott is claiming the 7.62x39 is a buffalo rifle... i don't think dan is a poacher, scotty, which is what you are insinuating, as 7.62x39 is not a legal buffalo round in any african country.


how buffalo have YOU killed.. not bison, not milch cows.. buffalo.,,

NONE... but, you know what, understanding that a round does not make minimum legal requirements doesn't require breaking the law, now does it.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Dan,

quote:

It doesn't take much to kill a bison.

No more than it takes to kill a water or cape buffalo.

Actually less. Bison are generally very docile and it takes quite a bit to give them a charge of adrenaline. And they have a lighter rib cage structure than a cape buffalo.

But cape buffalo are cowards in any event, preferring to run away whenever possible.

Dan,

I disagree, bison like any other animal, will get charged up with adrenaline when injured. In my experience pound for pound the bison may actually be the tougher. I do agree though that, in general, the bovines are cowardly in that they run away when hit.

One must be careful in making comparisons as typically trophy class cape (and water) buffalo are compared to small meat bison shot in the US. The ribs of a cape aren't that much heavier (although they are much more plentiful) than a large bison bulls. People will shoot a 1500 lb bison bull and think they have shot a monster, when in fact in all likelihood it is a relatively young adolescent bull (3 or 4 years old). The big one are much older and much heavier with bones that are very hard(as is true with all buffalo species). The hide typically thickens up on the older mature bulls as well (getting over an 1.5" thick on the forehead) I have seen 444 Marlin bullet (265gr Hornady) bounce off the forehead of mature old bison bulls, believe it or not.

I don't want to argue this one any further though as it is pointless.

Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Dan,

I disagree, bison like any other animal will get charged up with adrenaline when injured. In my experience pound for pound the bison may actually be the tougher. I do agree though that, in general, the bovines are cowardly in that they run away when hit.

you are incorrect. cape buffalo have andrenal glands far out of proportion to their size, which is why they are dangerous when excited, tough to kill, and not domesticated.

Jeff,

You haven't hunted or shot any buffalo species so I see no value in you second hand (Google is it) statements. You put a 0.308 shot through the upper chambers of any of their hearts and they will die relatively quickly. This is a matter of fact. Of course your margin of error with a 308, 338, and such is virtually zero.

Scott, my issue was with the fact that you claim ignorance and then flaunt knowledge, however erroneous it may be.

Power density relates to radio waves...never heard it used for firearms.

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JMJ888,
How many buffalo have you killed, and with what weapon(s)?

While I have yet to accumulate the financial means to make a buffalo hunt, I have been fortunate enough to associate with numerous people who have. In that time, I tended to keep my mouth shut and my ears open. Given the amount of respect most hunters have for the cape buffalo I think using a 500 S&W would be less than ideal. That is basic common sense and intuition. If you want to shoot a cape buffalo follow Rob's advice below.

quote:

Bottom line is if you can't hit 2100fps with a 400 gr bullet with a SD of >.3 it ain't a DGR.