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The 500 Mbogo Short (2.7") has been renamed. It is now called the "500 Bateleur" and is named after the "The world's most attractive raptor." "500 B" for short, still aka "50-12." If a totem/good luck charm like the Bateleur can help even Walter to kill a cape buffalo, and live to tell of it, that is more than good enough for me. How I got the idea, from current expedition thread: ************************************************************************************************************************************************ Bateleur: The Walter Eagle, aka "Walterhawk."   Nelson, Agree on the "award winning" quality of photography.  This is my pick for another entry into the competition. Saeed, What power/magnification/lens did it take to get this close-up of the Bateleur? This is Walter's totem. I remember him looking up at the distinctive short-tailed, broad-winged silohuette of this raptor soaring overhead, pointing at it and smiling. Many times. He claimed it was his good luck, the Bateleur. From my Audubon field guide: ************************************************************************************************************************************************ Bateleur Terathopicus ecaudatus Description: The world's most attractive raptor. Enormous head; extremely long, pointed wings that hang down well below extremely short, chestnut tail when bird is perched. Adult jet black, with yellow bill and brilliant bare red face and base of bill; large gray or brown shoulders; chestnut back. Short, bright red legs. Flight reveals white underwing, male with broader black trailing edge. Immature brown, with very short tail. L 24" (60 cm); W 6' (1.8 m) Voice: Usually silent, but gives raucous screams when excited ... (Like whenever Walter kills a cape buffalo!) ... Performs spectacular aerial displays in courtship. Builds or reuses a large stick nest hidden in the canopy of a tall tree. Raises 1 young. ... Its canting, side-to-side motion in flight gave this bird its name, which is the French term for a tightrope walker who uses a balancing pole. The Bateleur may fly for most of the day, covering up to 250 miles (400 km). It feeds on hares, dik-diks, guineafowl, bustards, doves, rollers, monitor lizards, and insects, as well as carrion. It perches in trees and on the ground, and is often seen at water holes drinking and preening.  | ||
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And what better bullet for a 500 Bateleur than a CEB ESP-Raptor in brass and plastic: The "Walterhawk." And a "Waltereagle" solid in monometal brass?  Jim's drawing relabeled:  And a recycled photo of the Jamison/Captech International blank basic brass:  The dummy round is loaded with the S&H brass FN solid of .510/535gr denomination, the "Waltereagle solid." Max brass there is 2.700". COL at that length is 3.405" with that bullet, thus COL at trim-to brass length of 2.690" becomes 3.395". The challenge is to find a rifle that can feed it. A pointy "Walterhawk" soft would be much easier to feed.  | |||
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Name change -  - Now you'll definately have to have a new headstamp, the original MS could have gotten by with just using the Mbogo headstamp.Oh well, perhaps Jamison/Captech International could make up a headstamp bunter for you that'll work in a hydraulic press - or facilitate its manufacture. The 535gr .510 S&H brass FN Solid would likely feed much easier if that sharp meplat edge had a nice radius. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I could scratch "500 B" on the blank headstamp myself. Also could radius the edge of the meplat with a bastard file.  | |||
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What's that .5917" brass usually used for? | |||
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That .5917" is a minimum chamber spec not brass. The chamber minimum has to be bigger than the brass maximum spec. The brass shown is the .338 Lapua Magnum blank basic cylindrical brass from Captech International, the Artist formerly known as Jamison. | |||
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Merci | |||
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Rip, what is the case capacity? ~130gr h20? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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jeffeosso, I will not know that until I shoot some fire-forming loads. Anything else would be just a guess. I refuse to even do any QuickLOADs until I have measured the water capacity with a hypodermic needle and digital scale. I'll just use the 500 AccRel data for starting loads.  But remember that the 12.7x68/49-10 is the same case but shorter and smaller caliber in the neck only, and it holds 131.45 grains of H2O at 2.647" trim-to, 2.657" max. The 500 Batelur is 2.690" trim-to (2.700" at max length), and the neck is for .510-caliber bullet instead of .500-caliber bullet. It is longer and wider in the neck only. It ought to be over 131.45 grains. A simple calculation of displacement in the neck only, comparing .500 to .510 ought to provide pretty close reckoning. | |||
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Ron, How about measuring the case capacity of the Jamison/Captech International 338 Lapua Magnum basic brass after FLR case forming and trim to length and then again after 1st firing the case and FLR the fired case? I have a feeling the J/CI basic 338 Lapua brass is going to be very popular for the 49-10, the 500 AccRel, and the 500 Bateleur and benchmarking the any differences in capacity will be quite useful to the reloader for domestic shooting vis-a-vis loaded and ready for DG hunting. Thanks, Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Will do. Just like with the 49-10 and Lapua brass. Should be very similar. http://tanganyikagame.com/index.htm | |||
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Thanks Ron. I'm thinking that as you're starting with cylinder/basic brass there likely will be very little difference between the initial case capacities - at least until after the case length has grown enough to require trimming... But I can definitely be proven wrong!  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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 Whatever problems McGowen was having, they seem to be back to usual barrel delivery time. I ordered two barrels on 9-12-2012. One a medium target barrel 28" long. One a No.6 Pac-Nor Sporter contour 28" long. Both stainless and both 1:12" twist. The medium target barrel shipped on 10-17-2012, arrived today, less than 6 weeks from shop order date. No word yet on the No. 6 sporter.  I'm thinking the medium target contour might look spiffy on a Weatherby Mark V, and the No.6 sporter on an FN 98, or do I have this bassackwards for a pair of 500 Bateleurs? Anything to keep from owning a 500 Jeffery! http://tanganyikagame.com/index.htm | |||
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RIP very impressive indeed. I think this is a long action proposition. I'm getting sold on the idea with the possibility of using the cheap .338 Lapua military once fired brass alone. What is the H2O Capacity? Pyzda | |||
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Once fired brass - neck sized in my 500 AccRel have a capacity of 136 - 140 grs water depending on which brass I use, Lapua 338 brass is 136 grs and Hornady 416 Rigby/ Quality Cartridge 500 AccRel brass was 137-138. And Norma 416 Rigby was 139-140 grs | |||
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(500) Bateleur: World's most beautiful bird of prey (wildcat cartridge), with a big head (.510-caliber bullet), six-foot wingspan (best brass of .338 Lapua Magnum derivation), and a short tail (fits a standard Mauser 98 with proper bottom metal). There are some similarities between the bird and the cartridge. "500 Bateleur/50-12" | |||
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I like it. | |||
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Canuck, This only further confirms your genius-level IQ. If only the average American voter could be half as intelligent as you ... sigh ... | |||
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Will the headstamp read "500 Bat" or "Bat 500"? Speak softly but carry a 500 Bat? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Buffalo That H2O capacity is "virtualy" identical to the .460Wea. case. I would always take military brass over the commercial just because it is harder and stronger. To me a Lapua brass has to be made in Finland, or otherwise I may just as well not to even bother with anything other than .460Wea. RIP A single stack magazine would be the safest way to go. This doesn't mean that a double stack won't work, but add enough of mud or sand into the action and the usual problems will start sooner rather than later. The biggest problem that one can have on DGR with double stack magazine IN THE FIELD is a CARTRIDGE RETENSION ISSUE due to the sand or mud inside the magazine. There is nothing more entertaining than to be facing an injured buff. and on the follow up shot you pull the bolt all the way back as quickly as possible and a fresh round jumps out of the double stack magazine front of the bolt unnoticed off course. The next (second) cartridge is PROPERLY stripped from the magazine by the bolt and the rim is under the extractor and you jam the action. (one cartridge is half way in the chamber, the other is partially in the bolt face). It's even more exciting when the cartridge case has a little body taper and is covered by wet fine sand and gets stuck half way in the chamber. In the field these things do happen more often than not. No gunshop/workshop pristinly clean conditions can uncover what you may face in the field. DGR has to be as reliable as possible under any conditions. In my opinion the double stack magazine is an uneccessary gamble. On the DGR I would rather have a single stack 3 down, than a double stack 5 down. Pyzda | |||
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RIP What are your thoughts on shoulder angle? I notice you've gone with a 20* shoulder while a lot of wildcatters go with the Ackley 40* shoulder. Rhodes DRSS | |||
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Pyzda, I cannot quite quit the staggered Mauser box on a CRF/CRE Mauser, but happy to on a pushfeed Wby Mk V. Maybe this is a common sickness? Rhodes, 20 degrees is slick in ease of forming brass and in feeding in rifle. The .338 Lapua Magnum was originally developed for military use that might include full-auto, etc., so there is an example of 20 degrees being better than 40 degrees for sure. A 40-degree shoulder is not always an "improvement," for the above reasons as well as this: Just changing a shoulder angle from 40 degrees to 20 degrees, while keeping the shoulder diameter and distance from base of case the same, will increase the case capacity slightly, though it shortens the neck if overall brass length is kept the same. If plenty of neck is available, as in the .416 Rigby, if all else stays the same, change that godawful 45-degree shoulder to 20 degrees, and you have increased the case capacity, you have made the cartridge a slicker feeder, and you have less risk of collapsing a shoulder, which can happen even in simple reloading of a once-fired case. Of course a 40-degree shoulder can increase case capacity and keep neck length unchanged or even lengthen the neck, but it involves blowing out the shoulder to wider diameter, and changing the distance of base to shoulder, if neck length stays the same. This removes case body taper. The great case body taper of the .416 Rigby helps make up for feeding handicap of the 45-degree shoulder. The .338 Lapua Magnum has same case body taper as the .416 Rigby, as well as the slicker shoulder. Of course in the 500 Bateleur and similar wildcats, the case of the Rigby/Lapua must be blown out to provide a shoulder at all. The 20-degree shoulder helps counteract the loss of case body taper in the wildcat, and is yet sufficient for headspacing, with the minimal "shoulder minus neck-1" difference. | |||
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Here is the official 500 Bateleur reamer drawing by Dave Manson. Disregard all others.  The brass maximum is 2.700" long. The chamber minimum is 2.712" long. This is not sloppy but actually on the minimum side of the routine clearance allowing for case stretch-and-spring-back on firing, etc. The neck length of the brass (.490") is less than the neck length of the chamber (.502"). The tight tolerance is kept at the shoulder to base length (headspace). And we know from the .500 XXX (12.7x68/49-10) previously, that all this is good from base to shoulder with .338 Lapua Magnum brass. | |||
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boom stick, That is good. "500 Bat" will certainly be spoken, and would make a nice headstamp too. The 500 Bat is getting closer to a landing ... when the Bateleur comes home to roost.   | |||
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For Jim The pre-fire-forming case capacity of the "500 Bat": Jamison/Captech Internatioal .338 Lapua Magnum blank basic, cylindrical brass starts off at +2.750", average length about 2.753" on a quick re-check. This is sized in 12.7x68/49-10 die for case body and shoulder. Then it is trimmed to 2.700". Then it is necked up and neck sized in 500 Jeffery and 500 Mbogo dies, staying off the shoulder and not belling the case mouth. Then it is final trimmed to 2.690", minimum length. I did this to just 3 cases. Average gross water/case capacity: 132.4 grains Might blow out a little bigger when the shoulder is sharpened by fire forming. Might be bigger if made with a different .416 Rigby basic with thinner brass. "500 Bat" suggests a lot of new comedy material: Baseball material, like "the 500 Bat is a real homerun slugger, pitches a mean fastball, bats five hundred, better than Ted Williams' best season, and by golly even has Red Sox (claws) to boot, etc." Comic book material, like "Bateleurman" or "500-Batman and Walter" instead of "Batman and Robin" ... oh, nevermind ... Baseball. Play ball! 500 Bat, the Louisville Slugger of DGRs. | |||
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I am saving best for last on this one. First will be a Weatherby Mark V with long and heavy barrel, last will be the FN Mauser 98 with shorter and lighter barrel. The .255"-long parallel-sided free-bore of .511" diameter will be more than sufficient to load any 50 BMG bullets single-shot for plinking. You just can't load them 5-Inch COL!!! Will also be interesting to see what can be done with the more than long enough 3.8" box on the Mk V. The Mauser 98 opened up to 3.5" box length will also plink with BMG bullets of course, but the 3.4" hunting-bullet loads will be a good fit there. | |||
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Slick feeding and ease of case forming, gotcha. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Rhodes DRSS | |||
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Thanks Ron! Now we’re getting somewhere…
Extracted from: http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5931027531/p/6 Extracted from: http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5931027531/p/6 Posted for posterity sake… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sorry - my mistake - it was the batch of 416 Rigby brass from Hornady wich had the greateste capacity: Case cap in fireformed brass: 338 Lapua brass (from Lapua): 136 grs water 416 Rigby - Norma brass: 135 grs water 500 Acc Rel brass- once fired (Quality Cartr): 137 grs water 416 Rigby - Hornady brass : 141 grs water | |||
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Jim, I am still amazed by the difference in military versus civilian brass for .338 LM.  Here are some potential loads (dummies) for magazine or single-loading into chamber of 500 Bat. Heaviest here is a 647-grain Barnes "XBT" (hollow point soft) of .510" diameter, 4.000" COL. Lightest is an old Barnes .308 XBT 140-gr (hollow point soft) in a plastic 50-to-30-cal. sabot:   I did the trigonometry and arithmetic on the 500 Bat throat. The jump from case mouth (at 2.690" trim-to length) to .510" groove diameter in the leade is 0.320", for a .510"-diameter bullet. The jump for a .509"-diameter Barnes 570-grain TSX is 0.339", to the .509" diameter of leade. The Barnes TSX 570-grainer can be loaded longer as a single-loader (directly into chamber) than it's minimum COL of 3.440", which will be used in the 500 BAT for magazine loading. The above calculated Effective Free Bore (EFB) is based on a no-slop calculation. But there may be slop in the reamer, maybe +0.001"/-0.000" for diameters, +.005"/-.000" on lengths, +/- 10' on angles. So, will have to try the TSX dummy to see if it can be loaded that long, or needs to be seated one band deeper, whenever the 500 Bateleur comes to roost. | |||
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Ron, I'm amazed as well at the difference in H2O capacity between the Lapua brand/mfg .338 LM commercial and military brass. One of these days be able to fireform the once-fired military brass, FLR it and take new capacity readings - that should settle the issue. Random thought though...we know originally the .338 LM was spec'd at 68K PMap though the latest CIP specification is spec'd at <61K PMap. Perhaps the Lapua military brass is constructed to the original spec - especially with consideration for use in the semi-auto rifles - while the commercial brass has been thinned slightly. Certainly wouldn't need thinning much to still withstand the original 68K PMap - just look at how thin walled the Remington RUM brass is and much of it is spec'd at 65K PMap - but the cost savings for a single multi-thousand run of brass could be substantial... Maybe I just need to send you 3-5 cases and let you work your magic with them as you have rifles in hand while mine is still a few months away... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, If you want me to fire form a few of the military cases to 12.7x68/49-10 and measure the case capacity, I could do that. I would also plan on comparing the weights of the cases and a sectional look with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel, vis-a`-vis the civilian case. I suppose I ought to anneal the case necks before blowing them out from .338 to .500, since they are "once-fired." PM me and we will go to email. | |||
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Ron, PM has been sent. Not sure if you need to anneal the case necks as I've only lost one case due to split neck but I'll leave that to your decision. I'll send enough so that you can do the 49-10 as well as the 50-12 for comparison sake. I'll even throw in a couple of the commercial Lapua brand/mfg 338 LM cases for you to use when you section the cases. Thanks for your efforts - they're much appreciated! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Thanks for the look-see. No need for the civilian cases, I have plenty of those. Just military surplus/once-fired. I can do 49-10 fire-forming but not 50-12. My 50-12 is farther off than your 49-10. | |||
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Jim, Got the brass, thanks. 7 pieces of "Lapua 98" headstamp, and one civilian case that has the pretty annealing. It will be interesting to but it through the paces Missouri style, "show me." Whomever shot that brass had it loaded hot in a rifle with a plunger-style ejector:      | |||
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500 Batlapuar? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Glad the box arrived. I figured that'd give you 6 cases to work with plus the two cases to section. It'll be interesting to see how the milspec and commercial cases differ internally and wall thickness wise; I look forward to your findings. I purchased the brass from a military brass surplus site; just figured the rifle the cases were fired in was a little loose chamber specification wise due to the case expansion in the head area... But I reckon they don't care as they only fire the brass once so chambering and extraction have the priority... Enjoy! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, I will section one of the milsurp cases and one of my civie cases. Will fire-form the 6 remaining milsurp cases and the one new civie case you sent. No annealing. Save that for after the third firing of the case. Will check water weights. Will send three of the formed milsurps and the one civie case back to you along with 3 of the blank basic J/CI cases for your inspection. After you have done your weighing and measuring and comparison to your hydraulic forming, you can make some nice feed dummies with your bullets of choice for your gunsmith to work with on your 12.7x68/49-10. I ought to get it done this weekend. I'll keep 3 of the milsurp cases after fire-forming, for future reference. Thanks. boom stick, Did I miss something? "Batlapuar" ... ? Bateleur: I think we need to capitalize the proper spelling as "Bateleur." It comes from the French word bateleur for a tightrope walker using a balancing pole. The canting motions of the Bateleur's wings as it soars overhead suggested the balancing act, so to distinguish it from the French acrobat, call it "Bateleur." I think the Frenchman pronouncing it sounds to the ear like the English "battler" with stronger accent on first syllable but the preferred English pronunciation is more like "battle lure" with stronger accent on the last syllable, though the alternate English pronunciation is just like the French, The schwa sound of the first "e" in "Bateleur" is slurred over and has little emphasis. So, you can say it with 3 syllables as "battle lure" or 2 syllables as "battler." | |||
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I was playing with the Lapua headstamp and the name of the cart. "Bat-Lapua-r" similar to Bateleur 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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