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Dave, Thanks for the peer review. you have as much experience as me shooting the stop box, and I realize you shoot up close to get very precise bullet impacts. I decided to shoot at actual hunting ranges but gave up your degree of precision as a result. Photo one: The shot up boards you see only have a few shots in them. I fired so many shots of each caliber and twist that the averages took care of the very small differences in bullet path. Usually the shots were identical or plus or minus 1/2 board. Occasionally plus/minus 1 board. Geroge Hoffman who just stacked the boards together rather than using air space (which I think is a tougher scenario as you have that constant phase change in density like a rib shot and the stacked boards actually support the bullet from one board to the next in a bridging fashion), was even more sloppy than I was and he had very similar results to mine. Photo 2: That is a shadow below the bullet, not a bullet hole or over lapping bullet path. No way you could know that, but look at it again and you will see what I mean. I actually only had one overlapping shot path in the whole test, and that was when a 450 gr NF FN hit a 465 gr TCCI in the base of the bullet and well, it was sort of obscene! Thanks for the close review, I do appriciate it. Andy | |||
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Jeffe asked -
No, just the opposite. The faster the muzzle velocity the higher the revs per second. The slower the MV the slower the revs per second. Easy way to calculate rotational velocity is: since we in the english system measure MV in feet per second, and twist in inches, a 1-12 twist (one turn in one foot) will be equal to its MV. So if your lott has a 1-12 and is doing 2300 fps, it will have 2300 revs per second. (I think). A 1-14 would have 14 divided by 12 = 0.85 so 2300 fps x 0.85=1,971 rev per second. A 1-10 would have 2,300 fps x 1.2 = 2,760 revs per second. Big diffrence which is why alot of us like the 1-10. I appriciate your offer of help. It would be fun to get together with a bunch of guys and make an assembly line for boards and wate r bags. To get my 1-8, 1-10, 1-12 and 1-14 twist 458's I had to call in help from three diffeent freinds. JMJ asked - "So if it is possible to have a bullet understabilized with a slower twist then is overstabilization also a probability with the faster twist, and at what point does it occur?" It takes a bit of interpolation between 375 and 458 data but in my test the 1-8 was probably no better than 1-10. Hal Ledbetter, a certified "rocket scientist" who sometimes posts here, looked at my data and concluded that, "Once you have achieved adequate stability in the target adding additional rotational velocity did not have any beneficial effect," or words to that effect. My test has been qaround for a few years, and took a few years to complete, and this is one reason many of us like the 1-10 twist. But there certainly are bullets that need faster than 1-10, they just are probably not big game or dangerous game ctgs. (like the various 6.5mm's). Thanks for asking an important question. Andy | |||
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Dan, Maybe you could take two sets of barrels for your 500 nitro? Would Butch Searcy loan you a second barrel in a different twist????? Your idea of shooting ten RN and ten FN into each elephant is the way to go! I would just include a RN and FN femur hit on each rear leg. Andy | |||
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This is most interesting. I am very ipressed over the testing and the thinking and the theories this have made. And I am glad Jeffe and Dan have made a deal in stead off - well, all the other stuff. And a very interesting test it is going to be, and I will look foreward to the results. Yet, I kind of feel this is like discussing which family car is safest to crash in 200 mph. All very ineresting, but do we drive family cars at that speed? Old Taylor was confident close up to any animal with a .470, heck, even a .400. Now, he was a better and more experienced shooter than most off us, but do we really need another foot more of penetration than he did? Yea, I know, I also asked about the need for the new big boomers, but I am really not trying to take the fun out of anything here - just trying to keep things in perspective. Like how big a deal is it? Really? Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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This is sure a "twist"ed discussion! Tom | |||
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Probably, as long as I loan him $8,000.  | |||
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Nice proposal.. when are you going to go? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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the 470 a.r. in africa...i love it!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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i would love my 1 in 10 twist 470 barrel to go to africa...let me know  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Jeff, Would you like to take me up on the bullet penetration testing offer? | |||
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182 Bottles of Beer on the Wall.. This is the longest Thread Ya'll.. AK | |||
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Andy, are you interested in coming down to Houston and particpating in this? Calibers i've got, got access to, or will finish building by the shoot 500jeffe - 18twist 510 wells - 15 twist 470 ar - 18 twist 470 mbogo (not mine, but i built it) 1x14 458 WHATEVER 1x14 I would like to shoot, head to head, the exact same bullet, at the exact same speed, into as near as possible the exact same media to as closely as humanly possible test only twist. heck, i'll even supply the bullets jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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See! He keeps running away from the concept of actually shooting elephants. As I said, he is either afraid of seeing the results on actual animals, or he is afraid that I will see his gunsmithing.  | |||
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Dan, Why don't you meet us half way? Let's shoot plywood with specific twists, then you can run on over and shoot some dead critters all you like with the same setup. Grab your fast twist capstick and 500 nitro or 500 A2 or whatever you would like to bring in a fast twist bigbore, and we'll work out the bullets and velocities to test these with Infact, why don't you plan on taking your 500NE and your 500A2, way at either end of the spectrum, and see for yourself? why not establish a baseline of expected results? After all, you want to shoot elephants to make/break how a bullet performs, why not have a baseline? Pretty simple stuff, and no real reason for all this contention... get on a plane, come on down, and pull the trigger a couple times... I am certain you'll be the guest of honor jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Bump...best debate in years. Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well, and practice, practice, practice. | |||
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Heck, make it simple. SLC is on the way to Texas. 500 grains and I can drive down together in my Dodge 4-door Diesel truck and split expenses. By time we arrive, we will have solved all of the world's problems and be staunch friends...or one of us will hve killed the other one. Either way, I would look forward to the drive, and I promise not to say anything rude down or back. We can haul lots of stuff that way. Rich | |||
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If the latter scenario plays out, will the survivor please show up for the experiment anyway?  George  | |||
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Gentlemen, thank you for the invitation, but I hope you can understand that driving to Texas and back to shoot some plywood is not a high priority item on my agenda. Feel free to shoot all the plywood you want, but do not make the mistake of concluding that it will accurately predict what will happen when you pull the trigger on a buffalo. | |||
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Dan, Sorry to hear you won't be making it. Yes, we all agree, that shooting a testing media won't be exactly the same as shooting dead, or live, game. But it will provide an index of the delta in penetration based on twist. Since the intention is to establish a baseline in dry media, then test in wet media, we should certainly see some difference from the extremes. Anyone care to make a side wager on the later? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Betting on what the data will be??? That thoroughly discredits the test! Your motivation will be to skew the results. Not only is this test not a predictor of what will happen in game, but now you reveal a motive for tilting the outcome in favor of your own pet theory. Jeeeeez! So how are you going to do it? Use fast twist shots on oak boards but slow twist on pine? Use fast twist shots on 1 inch plywood but slow twist on 1/2 inch? Pack the plywood for fast twist shots tightly but leave gaps between the plywood for slow twist shots? Download the cartridges to be fired from fast twist barrels? | |||
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take about misquotes and shady intentions .. Dan, please read my statement and then re-read it... then reread AGAIN.. the wager is on the difference from wet media to dry RESULTS. Please, don't project a situation that you would manipulate on myself. These tests will be performed in front of witnesses, and over a chrono... test methodology has been established, copying Dave's bullet trap, with the exception of using MDF, a toroughly consistant media.
if you so fear this twist test, why don't you show up? if the test is junk, why do you devote so much energy to it? the gentleman protests too much, mythinks (whch is the actual structure of that quote, which is normally misquoted) opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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as opposed to various field trials, the media testing will use the followoing, just like in high school chemistry...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Dan- Since I am in real life a certified Scientist and have the credentials to prove it, and since I will be there ( those real expensive airline tickets to Houston i.e. $198 won'r deter me), you can be sure that the tests would not be skewed or intentionally mis-interpreted. Frankly, this issue has been proven and is basic fact at this point. This test will do nothing but re-confirm what we already know. Nevertheless it will be conducted as accurately and in as unbiased matter as possible.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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How about a phone call to Charlie Sisk? He can measure the preasures as well! | |||
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Alf, Are you able to identify the variables in the equation? | |||
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500 Grains, I have no preference as far as twist, so long as the bullets all make round holes in the target. That said, your reticience sounds suspiciously like someone trying to duck the showdown. We have a saying in Idaho: "...ALL hat and NO cattle...". The boys in Texas have offered to set up the penetration tests to suit your preferences as well as can be done on non-live game, tests that will empirically demonstrate the superiority of your position VS Jeffe's...or not. I have offered to provide the transportation on a shared cost basis. I also have a Dodge Diesel four-door Longbox P/U which will accomodate an entire NFL offensive line in comfort and roughly 16,000 pounds of "stuff". One long day down, two days to shoot/test, and a long days drive back to your house. Leave on Friday morning, be back Monday night. $400 bucks total expenses plus ammunition and booze. I am available on short notice, with a flexible schedule. We might even shoot a few pigs whilst we are down there. Jeffe has thrown down the gauntlet sir...will you pick it up or leave the field of honor? Rich | |||
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PS: I got to tell you ALF; there are times when I get brain cramps trying to decipher some of your posts. That said, the mental exercise is good for me. Rich | |||
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Based on these threads I thought a tight twist was to make the bullet go to sleep quicker, reducing yaw angle at close range? When developing a load would it be correct to assume that the more accurate load, same bullet within reputable velocity range, should penetrate better? Edited 11-28-06: "angle of incidence" replaced with "yaw angle" because there seems to be some confusion in terminology between "angle of incidence" and "angle of attack" | |||
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Gimme a break bud. I offered to test fast twist versus slow twist in the real thing - elephant bodies. 40 rounds. All jeffie had to do was loan me one of his slow twist guns with an extra barrel with a 1:10. All the expenses were mine. He did not need to take time off work, buy a plane ticket, etc. Heck, I would have even paid for the fast twist barrel if he could not afford it. But he would never reply to my offer. Instead he comes up with this hokey plywood thing which is quite different from the real thing. Plywood differs substantially from elephant bodies in terms of density, water content, and ability to replicate the supercavitation effect. So as I have said many times, shoot all the plywood you want, but do not expect it to be an accurate predictor of what a bullet does in game. I offered a real bullet penetration test and jeffie ran away. My friend, the person who is ducking is your favorite Texan. And he can't hide from knowing eyes with his B.S. plywood test, although he can probably fool some of the duller knives in the drawer. | |||
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Dan, the tests aren't mutually exclusive. Participate in the dry media test and then go to africa... No cost to me? You have no concept of the time involved in building a "switch barrel" and by that statement alone, determines that you have zero concept of the time, money, and effort required to build such a thing. I never refused, no did you offer to PURCHASE a switch barrel from me, and continued to discuss the matter with you, until an outburst of childish behavoir, that indicated to me that I would foolish to loan YOU a rifle. Funny enough, I hear there's a book coming out at shotshow on this topic.... many respected hunters and writers... Dan, I don't think you'll like their field conclusions!!! So, run away, take your ball and go home, or continue your ridiculous and childish behavoir, we are coming to expect that from you when you are disagreed with. LMAO opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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See - jeffe is still hiding from real tests in real animals. And now I step aside so that the plywood geniuses can continue their fantasy. | |||
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Are you actually this dense, or are you being purposely obstinate? What part of NOT mutually exclusive do you have trouble comprehending? What part of "do as you will" is unclear? so, dan, i have to tell you, before I wouldn't have though this behavoir was becoming.. but now, keep going.. looks good on ya jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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What is better or worse in ballistics seems to be contentious more often than not. Hence the differences of opinions that we see here on AR. Some will tell you that the 9,3 is better off with a 1-in-9.5" twist rather than the std CIP twist at 14". If it was so simple and clear cut, why does CZ not do it with the more popular .375 H&H as well? Why such a substantial increase in the rate of twist? Have they (CZ) done some tests, as such a drastic change must have some motivation behind it. A 9,3 x 62 shoot a 286 gr WDL FMJ at 2,220 fps straight through an elephant's head. This has been repeated many a time. Two points stand out - it is done with a low velocity and a slow twist of 1-in-14". The 9,3's slow twist has been adequate for more than a century now. A valid question though is whether or not it can be improved. Some tests (RIP, Norbert and others) have already shown that bullet geometry can make a FN penetrate deeper than a RN solid. The same test can now be performed with different twist rates. From the above formulas that Alf published, it is very clear that spin can never be increased to such a level that it can meet the density requirement of flesh, which is a 1,060 fold denser than air. So twist cannot possibly drive in-target stability. Twist is only important to air stabilize the bullet and to let the bullet arrive at the target with a minimum or no yaw at all or angle of incidence. This is the proviso and its sensitivity needs to be evaluated. Let the test speak !!! CHris | |||
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500grains, explain to me, again, how the plywood and soft media testing is irrevelant but shooting already dead elephants is not? I can kill already dead elephants with my 22 Hornet with softpoints, and get brain penetration with some of the USAF survival gun FMJ's from my cartridge collection. If you KNOW the answer, why not take jeffe along to Africa and let him test the switch barrel rifle on elephants you buy? I expect 20 of each should prove or disprove his theory VS yours. Ad stated, the gauntlet has been thrown here... With all the talk here, to retain your status as respected poster and manly-man you simply MUST attend and compete in this Court of Public AR Competition. To "talk the talk" here you must also, when challenged, "walk the walk" or crawfish out. You know that this puerile talk of going to Africa and testing on elephants is merely a ploy to divert attention away from the actual need to take jeffe on, in front of all of his friends and prove him wrong. I am even willing to let you choose the radio stations we listen to, or the CD's we play on the trip; subject only to the no hip hop or rap laws in my vehicles. Time to suit up and play man. Rich | |||
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IS, if you do not know the difference between plywood and meat, then I am afraid further explanations by me will not help. However, feel free to read my many posts on this topic where the explanation already exists. Jeffe is welcome to go to Africa and shoot a switch barrel into ele carcasses. Of course he will need to pay his own observer fee to the outfitter and he will have to pay for his airfare as well as take time off from work. I doubt he will do that, but the door is open. | |||
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