Ordnace Gelatin at 20 paces.
Gentlemen, choose your weapons for the duel.
Must have FN solids available in reasonable weight for customary solid applications.

What caliber, first of all?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ordnace Gelatin at 20 paces.
Gentlemen, choose your weapons for the duel.
Must have FN solids available in reasonable weight for customary solid applications.

What caliber, first of all?

whatever .510 caliber, capable of throwing a bridger 500gr FN at 2300FPS.

as that is the subject of this thread, it ia at least topical.

I understand both dan and rip have these firearms, in 1x10 twist.

I have a 500 jeffe in 18 twist, and will have a 510 wells in 15...

all shots over a chrono

wet and dry media

not a "shoot off" rather a facts based study

jeffe

Please point to the post that says I have a .500 A2 with any twist whatsoever.

But perhaps Santa snuck one into my safe...

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Please point to the post that says I have a .500 A2 with any twist whatsoever.

But perhaps Santa snuck one into my safe...

Oh, my mistake. With the vehemence you defend that caliber's twist, one would expect you speak from experience..

again, my mistake.

do you have ANY .510 calibers with a 1x10 twist?

I can meet you part way..

How about a .475 with a 1x10 twist?

.458?

.423?

.416?

How about a .375?

O.K. this is indeed getting ridiculous.
.510/500-grain Bridger FN sounds like too much home cooking to me, I have decided. Slow twist can't handle the customary .510/570-grain?

It does seem like the only two calibers where there is a lot of spread on the twists used commonly on mass produced firearms would be .475 and .510, where there are common examples of 10" and 18" twist.

I would prefer to confine this lunacy to the specified twist thread, henceforth. Adios, amigos.

I am not trying to start or continue a flame war here, just feeling as if a MAN needs to stand for something...and back his own play.

500grains,

my idea will save you at least twenty-thousand dollars and two weeks of precious time...and you won't have to pontificate or prevaricate if your theory does not pan out. Ninety-six hours and four-hundred dollars; and everlasting fame and fortune await the winner of this shootout. In your case you would need to fund an impartial witness, or a hostile one for that matter, to go along and poke the legendary ten-foot pole down the wound channels to measure.

You basically have run your mouth extensively and by so doing...set yourself up here for eternal ridicule and shame and girlie-man status by doing the alligator mouth and hummingbird ass model-ing by trying to lame excuse your way out of an untenable position. I have a new name/slogan for you to post under "Save the plywood...side with me".

The testing shooting festival will occur without you. Just make sure that you do not bring further shame and ridicule upon your house by EVER posting an opinion on bullet performance after the shoot takes place. My offer still stands, you probably have a couple months to take me and the 'Osso up on it.

I am embarrassed for you...but not as much as you should be


Rich

Idaho Sharpshooter

I laid out a penetration twist challenge. Jeffe ran away. He came up with this lame plywood bullshit merely as a cover.

If you don't like that fact then stuff it up your ass. You are now on ignore mode due to your idiocy. Even Jeffe with his dishonesty and inferior intellect has not made it there. Congratulations.

I must apologize to the AR readership here. I was under the impression that 500 grains had rebarreled all of his unuseable sloooooooooow twist barrels with 1:10" or quicker, or bought some new QT rifles; and was defending his choices based on experience. I have been informed, by being referred back to his postings, that he does not own any fast(er) twist barrels than the old standards, that he has admitted to here in repartee. So, the conversation must, indeed, shift it's emphasis from the reality-based aspect (where one must back up statements) to the hypothetical realms. A pity, I has so looked forward to a series of long road conversations about all things and nothing in particular.

500 grains, accept my humble apologies.

Rich
at my age, I can ONLY slow twist...

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Idaho Sharpshooter

I laid out a penetration twist challenge. Jeffe ran away.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Please point to the post that says I have a .500 A2 with any twist whatsoever.

But perhaps Santa snuck one into my safe...

Oh, my mistake. With the vehemence you defend that caliber's twist, one would expect you speak from experience..

again, my mistake.

do you have ANY .510 calibers with a 1x10 twist?

I can meet you part way..

How about a .475 with a 1x10 twist?

.458?

.423?

.416?

How about a .375?


Just what, exactly, where you planning on using for the quicktwist barrel, Dan? I am certain you didn't expect ME to provide the barrel, did you?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Even Jeffe with his dishonesty and inferior intellect has not made it there.

Dan,
you might review the meanings of those words.. I recall a rather funny line, from "the princess bride" (silly chic flick, certainly, but I enjoyed dating the woman I married, and it was her favorite line"

quote:

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Dishonesty -- this could be seens as to tell everyone how superior your position is, but you haven't bought into it yourself. A "Do as I say, not as I do" event.

inferior intellect - should your behavoir of late be considered superior intellect, well, I stand convicted of not possesing those same facilities are yourself.


Here's the word for the day, in dan's style of laying out words that are someone insulting, but he draws the line at addressing them to the person..

fraud [frawd] -noun
a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

oh,
wait, here's another

snake oil
any of various liquid concoctions of questionable medical value sold as an all-purpose curative, esp. by traveling hucksters.

or
A worthless preparation fraudulently peddled as a cure for many ills

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

No, no bets. Not even crow. Accurate data is the most sacred of all pursuits and I do not wish to cast any shadow over it whatsoever. I provide the elephants, Jeff provides the rifle (and 2 barrels).

Yeah, let's see, Dan has a position that twist is better, and wants ME to supply HIM a two barrel takedown rifle.

Or, he could just show up with one of his overtwist rifles...

no--- wait---

Jeffie the know-it-all, is your I.Q. really that low???

To perform the test properly you must keep all variables the same EXCEPT FOR TWIST. Do you really think I have a 470 or .500 A2 with both a 1:10 twist barrel and a 1:18 twist barrel???

No, you don't. You are just being dishonest again.

Your plywood test will not tell you anything about bullet performance in animals but have fun.

Ignore mode ON.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Jeffie the know-it-all, is your I.Q. really that low???

To perform the test properly you must keep all variables the same EXCEPT FOR TWIST. Do you really think I have a 470 or .500 A2 with both a 1:10 twist barrel and a 1:18 twist barrel???

Yes, dan, this is exactly the test I am proposing, and have been proposing. I am amazed at your vehemence in defending fast twist when you are not following your own advice. How could you preach this as the holy grail but not have revised your own tools accordingly? After all, if the advange where large, it would be irresponsible and unethical to hunt with a slow twist rifling, KNOWING a faster twist rifle is better...



An interesting turn of events

jeffe

what Jeffe said...

Rich

what a twist of fate we've been dealt by ol'grainers not wanting to participate--guess he's afraid that the DPW test (Dangerous PlyWood) may have more merit than the tale he's spun here----chris

Actually it's just the opposite chris. I offered to perform the test in elephants but all the slow twist guys backed off because they did not want to see real world data.

Instead they are living a plywood fantasy.

Would you prefer to know what a bullet does in big game or in plywood? Which piece of information would be more useful to you if you were planning a big game hunt in Africa?

What is the slow twist crowd afraid of learning if the test is performed in elephants instead of in plywood? One thing that jeffie was afraid of was that I would see the quality of his gunsmithing. He is also embarassed that he chose 1:18 as the twist for the 470 AR, but does not feel he can back down from that mistake, hence the attempt to use a bogus test to camoflage the error.

Of course the real humor is that he actually knows nothing about bullet penetration in large game since he has never shot any large game.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Actually it's just the opposite chris. I offered to perform the test in elephants but all the slow twist guys backed off because they did not want to see real world data.

Would be nice if the squence of events where accurate, or the conclusion.

You asked me to build you, for free, a switch barrel rifle.

I offered that we shoot something reasonable to establish a baseline

you flew off the handle, and exaggerated every statement, as your quote

and no one ever "Backed off" I merely haven't received your check for the switchbarrel rifle, as you don't have a fast twist rifle of your own to prove your own POV.

In short, Dan has decided that he is right, and facts won't enter in to that.

Oh well, I guess he WONT be shooting elephants again...

jeffe

what jeff said...

Rich

500 grains--I want to see both--why--well let's say because maybe there's a glint of info that can be gained from the DPW test, whether good or bad it's still info that can maybe used by others in the future---sure shooting an elephant is more realistic, but then again live elephant data IMO is more realistic vs a dead one's data and dead elephant data, IMO, should be more realistic than DPW data, but we don't know how any elephant data stacks up against the DPW unless you go and shoot some DPW or someone shows up at the DPW shoot off and then goes elephant hunting and is willing to perform the tests---just seems since you are one of the main players in this thread that you'd want to go to the DPW shoot, but alas I guess not----chris

quote:

One thing that jeffie was afraid of was that I would see the quality of his gunsmithing.

You question the quality of the man's gunsmithing but offer to use it on LIVE ELEPHANTS for your test? If I didn't have faith in a rifle I am not sure I would pick it up for dangerous game. All this from the guy who posts pictures of Remington M700 failures and says anybody to use them on DG is "asking for it". In my opinion you are instigating the man which is lame.

quote:

What is the slow twist crowd afraid of learning if the test is performed in elephants instead of in plywood?

What exactly is there to learn from a flawed test such as your dead elephant proposal? You have VARIABLES...go get a 6th grade science book and look up the scientific method.

quote:

Of course the real humor is that he actually knows nothing about bullet penetration in large game since he has never shot any large game.

Does the act of shooting a large animal automatically qualify you as an expert? I know lots of guys that have been to lots of places hunting "large animals" and most of them don't qualify themselves as bullet penetration experts.

In summation, you offer to perform a flawed test with Jeffe's gunsmithing (which is as functional as it gets by the way) and then say he backs off. Then when he proposes another SCIENTIFIC test with many witnesses...you question his integrity in reporting the results. Meanwhile, your flawed variable ridden elephant test will be witnessed by "black dudes swinging axes"...if I remember your words correctly...truly classy characterization by the way. Why hold yourself to one standard, and then question Jeffe's integrity on the same point?

quote:

Originally posted by csutton77(formerly csutton7):
---just seems since you are one of the main players in this thread that you'd want to go to the DPW shoot, but alas I guess not----chris

If someone said that shooting watermelons will prove which test is better, should I fly across the country to see that to??? I don't even bother to drive to the Linebaugh wet newsprint thing, and that is less than a day's drive from my house. I just don't have much interest in travelling to see a test that will not generate useful data.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
If someone said that shooting watermelons will prove which test is better, should I fly across the country to see that to???


I just don't have much interest in travelling to see a test that will not generate useful data.

Or, apparently HAVING a fast twist bigbore dan doesn't HAVE a fast twist big bore to base his "conclusions" on


Here is the actual expereinced persons', discussing the matter

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I have not experimented with twist rate versus penetration as Ron has.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Data points below have so far been all the same for penetration: they bounce off the eleventh "1/2 inch thick" plywood board ....

.470 NE 18" twist at 2100 fps.
.470 Capstick 10" twist at 2100 fps
.470 Capstick 10" twist at 2300 fps
.470 Mbogo 16" twist at 2100 fps
.470 Mbogo 16" twist at 2500 fps

Not enough difference in twist or impact velocity to make any difference. They all penetrate the same.

This just keeps getting better and better!

ain't life grand!

I keep trying to sort thru the rhetoric here, on all sides, and see where Jeffe and 500 grains are basing their statements and being a bit contentious.

Can I have ONE STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM 500GRAINS AND FROM JEFFEOSSO?

The request to you two gentlemen...

1. list the dangerous game rifles you currently own, and the twist rate of each, by caliber. I choose to define
rifles of .40 caliber bullet diameter or larger.

I am certain that the entire AR readership awaits your answers with bated breath, as do I. This is where the BS
stops and we get, as Paul Harvey is wont to say "...the rest of the story...".

regards to both,


Rich

Rich,
rifles completed and shooting
550 express - 1x18
500 jeffe - 1x18
470 AR - 1x18
458 AR - 1x14
458 Win - 1x14
416 ribgy - 1x14
416 ar - 1x14
416 rem 1x14

rifles in progress
550 flanged - 1x18
510 wells - 1x15
500 ar - 1x18 PLANNED, though barrel may be 1x10, as no one is actually willing to try their twist against standard, and if I have to order a barrel, i will RELUCTANTLY get a 1x10

DG Rifles made, but do not belong to me
550 mag - 1x18
500 jeffe 1x18
470mgobo 1x14
458 lott - 1x14
416 AR - 1x14

rapid access to/have shot A BUNCH
510 wells - 1x15
577 NE - 1x20+
585 nyati - 1x18
550 mag - 1x16, 1x18

presure tested to twist
358 min - 1x16 (savage 99) 1x12- mexican mauser, 1x10 , springfield, last 2 built by me.

Dan owns no fast twist rifles over 40, or, to be more specific, has avoided answering the question.

jeffe

At this point in time I am waiting, as are we all, for 500 Grains to post HIS big bore firearms and barrel twists.
It seems only fair to give him another 24 hours, he may have a very large gunvault full to inventory.
Not trying to be rude or anything, just waiting, in a manner of speaking...

Rich

Mine are: CZ 550 in 416Rigby with factory twist
FN Mauser in 375 AI with 14" twist
Model P17 Rem in 510 KX with 15" twist
Model 1934 under construction in 550 Gibbs 18" twist
Shiloh Sharps in 38-90wcf with 12" twist for 375gr bullets (1.5"long)
Shiloh Sharps 45-70 with 18" twist
Winchester M1886 in 50-110 with 22" twist
" M1885 SS in 50-110 same twist

R

Rich,
he's refused to answer this question on several occasions, and now has us on ignore. Hear no evil?
See no Evil?

too bad it's not "speak no evil" , but 2 out of 3 aint bad.

jeffe

500 grains--just wondering what big bores do you have over 40 cal and what's their twist rates??

I have a CZ 458 Lott factory twist 1:14
Savage 458 winnie factory twist 1:16.5
2 CZ 416 rigby's in factory twist 1:16.5 (one with a 22" barrel)

and although under 40 cal I also have a
CZ 375 H&H in factory twist 1:12

chris

Jeffe,

I ain't buying the "ignore" button thing, nobody here with that many posts is going to miss this much of the thread dialogue. I think "failure to respond" is the more likely answer.

CSutton77,

thanks for posting, in case Jeffe is right. I keep trying to understand this line of reasoning...but it is likely beyond my meager skills to digest.

Can we capsulize it as "...I do not own any fast twist firearms, I just think everybody else should..."? It may just be a nefarious ploy to get us all to unload our slooooow twist rifles so he can buy them cheap!

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Jeffe,

I ain't buying the "ignore" button thing, nobody here with that many posts is going to miss this much of the thread dialogue. I think "failure to respond" is the more likely answer.

CSutton77,

thanks for posting, in case Jeffe is right. I keep trying to understand this line of reasoning...but it is likely beyond my meager skills to digest.

Can we capsulize it as "...I do not own any fast twist firearms, I just think everybody else should..."? It may just be a nefarious ploy to get us all to unload our slooooow twist rifles so he can buy them cheap!

Rich

Have any of you guys who are whining about 500grains not replying yet, considered that he might be away for some days due to work? Or hunting for that sake? Since he hasn't made a single post on AR since the 19th, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this out...

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Have any of you guys who are whining about 500grains not replying yet,:

Odd way to provide information.. please see post above, he has repeatedly refused to answer these questions.

perhaps "whining" is a bit strong, .. how about requesting information that is pertinent to the discussion, yet refused to be provided?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Have any of you guys who are whining about 500grains not replying yet,:

Odd way to provide information.. please see post above, he has repeatedly refused to answer these questions.

perhaps "whining" is a bit strong, .. how about requesting information that is pertinent to the discussion, yet refused to be provided?

Provide information??? I was merely pointing out what it looks like some people are doing. Although this might not be their intention.

Erik,
fair enough.. though it was asked for initially by me, dan has made what, 4 other posts on the thread since, and well, has avoided the issue. Using dan's reasoning, no answer is a negation (he's done this HOW many times?) ... and it's fair to ask for this info.

Again, using dan's reasoning (i've been the "target" of this a couple too many times) failure to answer the question is "woogey boogey" big bad and scarey, with some nefarious reason...... or, it EXACTLY quote dan "what are you trying to HIDE? what's the big deal in answering that question" ... and, funny enough, I had.
Dan, you may request that quote to be made public, should you like
jeffe

ErikD,

he told us, three or four days ago he was pushing the ignore button.
I guess it was to let us know where we and the importance of defending his position stood.
It is just my humble opinion that the question posed will NEVER be answered...leaving us here to draw our own conclusions RE the debate and the debaters...

Rich

I guess it is put up or shut up time.

I am about to drop a check in the mail for a 1x10 twist .510 barrel. this sort of seems STUPID that I would pay to prove dan and art's thought, but Dan doesn't HAVE a 1x10 twist .510 caliber... though he certainly has caused a ruckus for his position that it's better.

I don't know anyone around here that has a 1x10 twist bigbore... when I spoke with several of the local gunsmiths, who've built .458s and up, if they ever made anyone's in 1x10 twist.. they asked me "are you stupid?"

And Houston is the 4th largest City in the country, as well as the 4th largest safari club... not exactly a bumpkin crowd.

So,
PUT UP OR SHUT UP time... the barrel, the dry media, and the wet media are going to cost about $800 to $1000 bucks. (no joke), not including media. Since Dan has requested that I build him a switch barrel rifle and GIVE it to him, to prove his thought, and stated that only POOR people care about cost, well, ...

I figure i must be pofolks compared to Dan...

But buying the parts and pieces certainly is cheaper than making him an 8k rifle and "trusting" that it will come back. I think he made a great statement, that butch would be willing to LOAN him a set of 1x10 barrels for his 500NE, if dan was willing to LOAN butch 8500 bucks.

It's put up or shut up... Since Dan doesn't even HAVE a fast twist bigbore to compare, what's he putting up?

Nothing, as far as I can see, except a biased viewpoint and a good deal of wind


jeffe

Jeffe---you are to be commended---it will be interesting to hear/see the results....chris

Chris,..
say, what is the twist of your gibbs? or do I ahve the wrong chris?

Thanks, It'll get out there, some when...

wonder if a 10' 12" pipe, stuffed with ground feral hogs and bbq sauce would be acceptable as "flesh" as sure, it's not muscle and "void" but it is the same density....

and, afterwards, well, sloppyjoes for 300!!

jeffe

What about scaling everything down by half? Instead of .510 use a .257 and run it a 1200fps with cast bullets or custom solids with a flat nose design. You could make a switch barrel pretty easy......couldn't you, a 1x10 and 1x18. Then you would need less media to shoot, less powder to burn, the barrels would be cheaper, etc. Just a thought.

Ptaylor,
anyway we "scale" it, i would wind up with an inappropriate for twist for caliber. .. something that in a large caliber, won't shoot casts very well and make too much pressure, or on the small calibers, can't shoot nominal bullets weights .. and to get a 1x10 twist barrel for the big bore, it's the same price


jeffe

Jeffe--if you're asking me it's the wrong chris--although I do often think of jumping into the 500 arena and I have the extra CZ 416 rigby I haven't finalized the deal in my mind on what caliber or if to do it or what twist barrel I'd use!!!! .....chris