Ho hum. Back to twist.

When I built my 470 Mbogo the fastest twist I could get from Pac Nor was 1:16". Since then they are offering 1:10" and the slower twists in their .475 barrels.

They have responded to demand.

If I did it again I would use a 10" twist on the 470 Mbogo. McGowen has been offering them all along. A-Square built ther 470 Capstick with a 10" twist. So did the Winchester Custom shop (but sadly spotty quality on the Winchester barrels, unlike McGowen). My 470 Capstick has a 10" McGowen barrel and it shoots the North Fork and GSC 500 grainers into bugholes.

The 500 A-square is truly at its best with the 10" twist. All pluses, no minuses to that decision.

Here at RIPoff Arms we use only 10" or 12" twist barrels on everything from .308 Chui to 500 Mbogo. In fact, everything gets a 10" twist except the .375 Simba, which uses a 12" twist.

Ron,
so, you aren't at all interested in shooting cast bullets, then? Not a problem...

In all honesty, get a 1x10 barrel for your Mbogo... and build a max load in it, then put that load (and x16 barrel) back together and see what you get.

The ONLY time fast twist is advantageous is if you REALLY want pressure to build quickly.

Again, go see Ackley's books on the QT barnes bullets.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Just so everybody here understands the facts and History. ScottS (Scott Sweet) is a major Troll on this site. He first appeared years ago as ToddE, became Axel , Assclown( I gave him that name and the idiot liked it and adopted it) you can guess why and a ton of other names I can't even remember. He gives himself away by quoting pseudo science and engineering data, that in the end is scientifically flawed and generally a lie. He apparantly may have briefly ( right Scott) owned one real big bore rifle a .500 AHR in his career and probably nothing else. He makes up load data and what he actually knows about big bores he learned on this site and from his extensive googling skills. He may in fact work as a low level quality assurance auditor at a well known detroit automaker or subsidiary. HE HAS SERIOUS MENTAL PROBLEMS AND FORGETS OR DECEIDES NOT TO TAKE HIS MEDS. Scott apparantly dislikes us because we actually shoot and own the very guns he dreams of and have the audacity to talk about them. Make no mistake, ScottS is a jerk and should not be believed by anyone. I truly feel sorry for him. He wants despareately to be seen as an important member of this site and his continuous failure devastaes him. he disappeared from the site for about a year in the hopes that no one whould be left who remembers him. Sorry Scott! AR Reader be advised! Check with the moderator if you think I'm overstating the facts.-Rob

I think you missed one of his aliases, "shootaway". There's another little prick from hell!!!

Ho Hum Indeed!- The only time a fast twist is advantageous is if you want to stabilize LONG heavy bullets. Since the .500a2 can do that( 750 gr A-maxs, .50 BMG military pulls etc., there is an argument for it. However ,for the .470 MBOGO? Other DGR's? I think NOT!
I've always designed DGR class weopons intentionally for lower pressures and higher velocities. I can't see the advantage of a inherently higher pressure, lower velocity approach.
Finally, in 1000yrd FCSA competition you are continuously making a tradeoff between bullet stability, velocity and pressure. Every competative gun uses a 1:15 twist. You don't see any 1:10 twist barrels in the winners circle and we are shooting Very LONG Heavy bullets!
You really get to see the effects of bullet stabilization, velocity and pressure at that range. I'm sticking to 1:15.-Rob

PacNor is rebarreling my 510Wells to A2 (the Wells bore is pitted). I requested 14" twist, they don't offer anything faster. Hope it is sufficient as I do plan to use 647gn surplus for plinking.

Robgunbuilder,

quote:

Just so everybody here understands the facts and History. ScottS (Scott Sweet) is a major Troll on this site. He first appeared years ago as ToddE, became Axel , Assclown( I gave him that name and the idiot liked it and adopted it) you can guess why and a ton of other names I can't even remember. He gives himself away by quoting pseudo science and engineering data, that in the end is scientifically flawed and generally a lie. He apparantly may have briefly ( right Scott) owned one real big bore rifle a .500 AHR in his career and probably nothing else. He makes up load data and what he actually knows about big bores he learned on this site and from his extensive googling skills. He may in fact work as a low level quality assurance auditor at a well known detroit automaker or subsidiary. HE HAS SERIOUS MENTAL PROBLEMS AND FORGETS OR DECEIDES NOT TO TAKE HIS MEDS. Scott apparantly dislikes us because we actually shoot and own the very guns he dreams of and have the audacity to talk about them. Make no mistake, ScottS is a jerk and should not be believed by anyone. I truly feel sorry for him. He wants despareately to be seen as an important member of this site and his continuous failure devastaes him. he disappeared from the site for about a year in the hopes that no one whould be left who remembers him. Sorry Scott! AR Reader be advised! Check with the moderator if you think I'm overstating the facts.-Rob

You got me! The world owes you a great deal for exposing me, again.

I am not a quality assurance auditor, I am a build technician. Also, I do not dislike any of you, quite the contrary, I look up to all of you in utter admiration.

I hope that someday I will own a gun more powerful than my Daisy Champion 99 BB gun. Since you have exposed me I guess I must disappear yet once again.

366torque, I am not "shootaway".

Scott,
your village called.....

jeffe

Bye! If you had played square with us here, we might have liked you. Your posts to me were straight, try that with everybody when you come back.


Rich

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


The ONLY time fast twist is advantageous is if you REALLY want pressure to build quickly.

I must disagree.

A fast twist is advantageous to stabilize long bullets, such as long range bullets.

A fast twist is also advantageous to keep a bullet stabile once it enters an animal. Keeping a bullet stable in air and keeping it stable in animal flesh are 2 different tasks. Would you like a bullet to remain stable for 72" of penetretion within an animal, including punching through a heavy bone like a buffalo jaw (and row of teeth), shoulder blade or hip bone? If so, then select a fast twist.

However, if your objective is to obtain the most pleasing results possible when shooting across a chronograph, then I agree a slow twist will be an advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Finally, in 1000yrd FCSA competition you are continuously making a tradeoff between bullet stability, velocity and pressure. Every competative gun uses a 1:15 twist. You don't see any 1:10 twist barrels in the winners circle and we are shooting Very LONG Heavy bullets!
You really get to see the effects of bullet stabilization, velocity and pressure at that range. I'm sticking to 1:15.-Rob

Dan,
you are welcome to your opinion, of course, but I must also state that too fast a twist is worthless at best, and determental to a rounds performance at worst. TOO much pressure is that, too MUCH.. and there's no point.

What twist was that 470 NE you did penetration tests with?

So do you guys think 1 in 14 8 groove is OK for the A2 shooting 650 grainers?

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
So do you guys think 1 in 14 8 groove is OK for the A2 shooting 650 grainers?

Forrest,
What do I think about 14" twist for a 500A2?
Answer: Ho hum.

Pac-Nor listings right now, just a sample, not all inclusive:

TWIST RATES
***********
.458 cal
3-groove: 13", 14"
6-groove: 8", 22"
8-groove: 14", 15", 18", 20", 22"

.475 cal
6-groove: 10", 16", 38"
8-groove: 18"

.510 cal
6-groove: 18", 20"
8-groove: 9", 14"

.510 cal for 50 BMG
3-groove: 15", 26", 38"
8-groove: 10", 14", 15", 20"
polygonal: 15"

Rob is confusing the issue with 50 BMG target shooting at 1000 yards, or further in military use.

500grains has got it right: He is talking about hunting rifle use.

So Art Alphin, who designed the 500A2 around a 10" twist barrel is an idiot?

I think not.

The pressure and velocity differences between a 10" and a 15" 500A2 are trivial. No importance whatsoever.

I use compressed charges of RL-15 or Varget with 570 grainers, and compressed charges of H4350 Extreme, AA4350 or IMR4350 with the 750 grainers.

I have no pressure problems, and velocities are all I want, and accuracy is excellent, and penetration is great.

A 10" twist stainless McGowen is what I have used on two 500A2 rifles and the 500 Mbogo.

10" twist on a 500 A-Square: The A-square way or the highway, just like Art Alphin's customer service philosophy.

Art's data for low pressures and high velocities in the manual (ANY SHOT YOU WANT) for his 10" twist 500 A2 are impressive, and utterly reliable.


Twist rate should be 1:10". Otherwise it is just a "twit rate."

Jeffe,
No, not interested in cast lead bullets in my 500's or my 50 BMG.

I would hate to "over-torque" the lead bullets in my 10" twist 500's, or my 15" twist 50 BMG. I prefer the tuff bullets at high velocity, like milsurps and TSX's and GSC FN's and HV's.

I have never had a 750-grain A-Max or 705-grain AAA Harlow target bullet explode from "over-torque" while on the way to the target either.

OverTorque? Is that anything like OverKill?

I save those cast lead bullets for the .38/55 Crazy Horse carbine, or my .45/70 Marlin.

Interesting debate!


RIP

Is your .308 lapua simply the .338 necked down?

Art Alpin is most definately an idiot! Have you ever really talked to him? I made that mistake at SCI when he was hawking his hannibals. What a total jerk. Based on his Hannibals design I think his understanding of gun design is a joke. He probably just bought some 1:10 twist barrels cheap from somebody by mistake and deceided to tell the "big lie". Somebody will always believe you. I'm sorry but 1000 yrd shooting frankly tells all. In that atmosphere people invest $15-30K to be really competative and if a 1:10 TWIST WAS AN ADVANTAGE THEY WOULD BE EXTOLLING IT! Remember at that range you can actually see the effects of bullet stability. More stable in air but less stable in dense media? Whats the logic behind that? News in the FCSA crowd travells fast. As for a faster twist producing more penetration in denser medium I remain completely unconvinced. Lets get a switch barrel 500a2 and do the test on ballistic gellatin. That will tell all.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Dan,
you are welcome to your opinion, of course, but I must also state that too fast a twist is worthless at best, and determental to a rounds performance at worst. TOO much pressure is that, too MUCH.. and there's no point.

I am not talking about too much twist - just enough to keep the bullet well stabilized both in air and in a heavy boned animal. I am talking 1:10 instead of 1:18.

If the rounds are loaded so hot that a change in twist to 1:10 makes them dangerous, then the problem is in the loads, not the twist.

May I remind folks about 1:7 and 1:8 AR-15 barrels? What happened with the 1:14 barrels? The bullets were stable to 100 yards, but tumbled down range, or tumbled in flesh. It is the same principle here.

quote:

What twist was that 470 NE you did penetration tests with?

I have not performed penetration tests with the 470 NE. Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation. It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

Dan - The AR story is somewhat inaccurate, the military bullets were not even stable in air with a 1:14 twist. Accuracy was terrible due to poor bullet stability. Many bullets keyholed at 200 yrds. I speak from first hand reallife experience! The 1:7 twist stabilizes real long 67-70 gr bullets very well
My .470Ne with Bridger flat noses went completely through an ELE at 2150fps. Was that enough penetration?-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippian:
Interesting debate!


RIP

Is your .308 lapua simply the .338 necked down?

Howdy Mississippian,
FWIW, I started school in Columbus, Mississippi. First and second grades at Franklin Academy elementary school when I was an Air Force brat, laid the foundation for my future. At 6 y.o. I spent my first 25 cents of allowance money on the first ever Incredible Hulk comic book, and a Superman comic, 12 cents each, IIRC. This supplemented my "Dick and Jane" readers in Ol' Miss, Bay of Pigs days. B52's at Columbus AFB.

Enough rambling, but we are getting nowhere with the Twit Raters ...

.308 Lapua RIPoff or .308 Chui:

This is simply the .300 Lapua Magnum with my favored throat, with .3000" long parallel-sided freebore of .3085" diameter with 1.5 degree leade. Dave Kiff made this "customized" or RIPedOff reamer for me.

Most don't realize the .300 Lapua Magnum has a 25 degree shoulder instead of the 20 degree shoulder of the .338 Lapua Magnum. The base to shoulder distance is the same, for the two, just necked down and slightly sharper shoulder for the 300 Lapua. This allows a full caliber length neck for the 300. The 300 Lapua and 338 Lapua headspace guages thus differ by a few thou in length.

I could not improve on the 300 Lapua except by a mere throating difference to suit my taste for the long monometal bullets, and to allow me to fill the Rigby-length box.

Now back to the twittering over 10" twist versus 15" twist in the 500 A-Square.

Gotta admit AA may be an A-hole in the customer service and stock design department, but he knows ballistics, inside-out: internal, external, terminal.

Whoever does not like a 10" twist on a 500 A2 may kiss this for all I care:

Bend over and drop your pants Art Alphin:

And here is J.D.Jones with his 10" twist on the 50 Peacekeeper, he says "Kiss ol' spot" too:

Dan says the ideal twist for a .475 500gr bullet is 1x20

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation. It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

as the twist on the 470's did not suddenly change with federal ammo?
470 king of penetration? Couple things wrong with that statement, based off your previous comments in this thread.What about it's too slow twist? and that twist rate needs to increase when velocity increases, but suddenly federals loaded to 2150fps, which classic ammo wasn't known for actually making, makes it work better?


Rob says the ideal twist for a 750gr .510 BMG bullet is 1x15, as that's an exteremly LONG bullet

so, the ideal twist for a .475 through hyper long .510 MUST be somewhere between 1x20 and 1x15 ...

1x18 sounds like a good all purpuse compromise to me, but 1x16 is equally valid


Both gentlemen state that there's no reason to go to a faster twist, as Rob says that the 1x15 is the circuit winning king in the 50 cal shooter society and Dan says the 1x20 in the 470 is the King...

As with all things, moderation is generally a good choice.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I am not talking about too much twist - just enough to keep the bullet well stabilized both in air and in a heavy boned animal. I am talking 1:10 instead of 1:18.

Yes, you are stating x10, which is over twist, if 18 is fast enough to stablize all the bullets you plan to shoot. Then again, that nearly 100% faster twist than required, Dan. this is not a MINOR change. I'll stick with your statement on the 470.

quote:

If the rounds are loaded so hot that a change in twist to 1:10 makes them dangerous, then the problem is in the loads, not the twist.

Dan, you are now agreeing that twist dramatically raises pressure?


I'll stick with your statement of the 1x20 twist being just about perfect for a .475 bullet, and go just a hair quicker, so I can shoot barnes bullets, should I desire.
Thanks for the advice.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Dan says the ideal twist for a .475 500gr bullet is 1x20

Jeff. Stop misquoting me. That is ignorant behavior.

Your knowledge and expertise are thin, at best. You misunderstand very basic concepts. And you do not seem able to learn.

This discussion is at an end.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation. It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

Dan,
there's no misquote, and therefore no ignorant behavoir on MY part... direct repesentation of what you said, in context. i am sorry if that doesn't agree with your intention.

Since the twist doesn't change with the federal load, that 1x20 twist MUST be good enough, per yourself, otherwise, how could it become the king of penetration?


Feel free to stop particpating in a discussion, though it is evident that you are closing YOUR end of the discussion



jeffe

Boring!- Never saw Art Alpin or JD Jones shoot their .50's at FCSA. Not one record held by either as far as I know. Skip Talbot knew Big bore guns and twist better than any man alive and he steered me away from less than 1:15. in .50 caliber. Skip tried every possible twist combination and guess what 1:15 WAS IT. ART-ALPIN AND JDJONES are BOTH SIMILAR A-HOLES IMHO. Great ballistic designers- NOT! You know there is a special class IN LONG RANGE SHOOTING called UNLIMITED where the .50 Peacekeeper could be TESTED in REAL COMPETITION against other modified non -.50BMG .50 calibers like MY .50/.600 OK AND QUITE A FEW OTHERS. I'll stack my PERSONALLY BUILT .50/.600OK with a 1:15 twist against any 1:10 at 1000 yrds. 5 shot group ( smallest group wins). Even put money on the line. We could also do .475's. I'm sure Pac-Nor would make us some barrels in 1:10 and 1:15( have not really thought .475 through yet) Any Takers or we just Posing? Might cost a little money, but it would be fun. Oh- you better be prepared to beat a 3.78 inch group. It's done that and a few 4.5's.
Assuming the problem statement is a bullet launched from a 1:10 twist barrel gives better penetration in animal flesh than a 1:15 , it would seem to me that this could easily be proven with a switch barrel rifle enough Ballistic Gelatin and a ruler. MYTHBUSTERS ANYONE? I think the case is closed on what twist gives better accuracy and velocity at lower pressures. My guess is that the end result will have more to do with Bullet runout than twist!i.e lack of bullet concentricity will have a greater effecty on stability than twist rate. Would you like to guess how I know that?-Rob

Robgunbuilder,
Thanks for the heads up on twist man! IF I ever buy a 50 caliber rifle I will follow your advice and get a 1:15" twist tube from PacNor. IF I ever hunt anything with that 50 caliber rifle I buy I know it will be more than adequate in the penetration department too, because of the 1:15" twist, and your standing behind that.

But you know me, those is two mighty big IFs.

quote:

Bullet runout than twist!i.e lack of bullet concentricity will have a greater effecty on stability than twist rate

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom too!!! I would never have been able to figure that out on my own! Seriously, it is so obvious it is difficult to comprehend.

Bye now.

With all the mental capacity and real world experience rearing it's smug head here, why hasn't anybody suggested the Greenhill Formula? It might settle the arguement rather easily... IMHO, too fast a twist just exacerbates the rotational torque problem.

Rich

Jeffe,
I cannot believe how badly you misinterpreted the 500grains quotes. Truly mind boggling hornswoggling.

Rob,
Get off the 50 BMG vs. 500 A2 comparison at 1000 yards. Apples to oranges.

Glen D. Zediker in _Handloading for Competition_ (not ultimate science but extensive observation and proven practice, with reporting from many sources):

"According to Creighton Audette, though, ballistic research conducted by artillery folk showed that there was less than one percent difference in pressure or velocity when twist rates were doubled or halved (comparing a 7.5 to a 14). He also mentioned that the measurement tools used had greater than that amount of error."

There are lots more factors than twist that have much more effect on accuracy, pressure, and velocity.

This thread was supposed to be about 500 A-square twist rate.

That is a hunting rifle used most often within 100 yards, hardly ever beyond 200 yards.

A little extra twist will never be a problem and can only help, not hurt in a practical and portable DGR.

1000 yard target shooting is only an amusing stunt with the 500 A-Square, though it is quite capable there with a 10" twist and the long target bullets at 3/4 of 50 BMG speed, from the much shorter and lighter rifle barrel of the 500 A2.

500 A2: 2150 fps with 750-grain bullet
50 BMG: 2750 fps with 750-grain bullet

500 A2: 2150 x 12/10 = 2580 rps bullet spin rate
50 BMG: 2750 x 12/15 = 2200 rps

A little extra spin is always better than the paper puncher's "ideal" when a hunting rifle is the subject, especially one meant to deliver unfailing penetration.

Faster velocity with the same bullet allows slower twist barrels to succeed.

Slower velocity with the same bullet demands a faster twist.

Some of you are bassackwards on this.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Dan,
there's no misquote, and therefore no ignorant behavoir on MY part... direct repesentation of what you said, in context. i am sorry if that doesn't agree with your intention.

Liar.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation. It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

I have a lot of respect for Dan, but as this is written, I jumped to the same conclousion as Jeffe.

This is a Quote, and as this is written, how can Jeffe be a Liar?

Then again, we know Dan's opinions, and my adwice to him must be to write a little more fulfilled replies. Your VERY short replies have had me confused more than once.

And my adwise to Jeffe must be to stop making a case of what obviously is miss-written by Dan.

Then again, who the hell am I to give anybody adwices..........? Sorry guys, but my intention was good.

GIRLS!!!! GIRLS!!!!!

ARE WE ON ANOTHER CRUICFY GREAT OLD MEMBER KICK?

I'M PISSED OFF ABOUT LOOSING RAY, SO CUT THIS CRAP, AND BE CIVIL. DON'T WANT TO LOOSE DAN AS WELL.

gs

GS,

There is life after AR, believe me. If they chase Dan away I am sure he will quickly get over it. I often wonder why he, and a very few others, still post at this site. It really has degraded since the old days! I only come back once in a great while (just about annually now) to answer a question or two, which tends to quickly be interpreted at pot stirring by the so-called experts.

That last sentence should have read "to be exposed as a trolling posier and consequently educated on big bore rifles and hunting by the exceptional experts!"

I certainly believe that this debate is going nowhere although I found it very interesting for a little while. Everyone just go home and use what ever twist you desire!

RIP,
I always wondered what the scoop was on the .300 Lapua. Thanks for the info. I had a 1000K heavy gun chambered in a 338 necked to .308 (no shoulder mods) but it didnt take me long to realize that neck turning is for retired folks with no children at home!

Really disagree with Rob! Art Alpin is a genious! He found a use for used 2x6 inch lumber--stocks for the Hannibal. Caught me at SCI about ten years ago, when I wasn't really into big bores, still messing around with light calibers, ie., 416 Anyway after the pitch, I picked up one of his creations and must say that he had the recoil problem tamed and well as my enthusiasm to shoot his rifles.

Had a friend in SCI-Chicago that bought a Hannibal 500 A2 about that time. It was a hog, but through the years he had several gun smiths modify the action, trigger, safety, barrel, and cut down and sculpture and shape the stock. Actually, was looking decent and I believe it had a 1:10 twist. So there is still hope!

Dak

Jeffe,

I agree with Dan and RIP, but it is your money and you can certainly build a rifle any way you want.

For what its worth, I have written an article for African Hunter about the effects of FMJ penetration and rifling twist testing the bullets in a La Grange stop box.

Even when fired at 2,400 fps, a 1-14 twist does not adequately stabilize a Hornady 500 grain FMJ RN or a 500 grain Barnes X.



The stop box corresponds to elephant skull penetration with a FMJ RN by 95%.

One of the most noteworthy things about the test which used 1-8, 1-10, 1-12 and 1-14 twist barrels, was that the 1-12 and 1-10 were so much more consistant than the 1-14.

Penetration increase with enhanced twist was only about 10% greater with FMJ RN but the CONSISTANCY of penetration was HUGE in all calibers tested, which included 375, 416 and 458.

No fishtailing, damaged bases, squirted out cores, tumbling or sideways exits with faster than normal twist, and lots of them w 1-14.

I was involved in the development of the XM16-A2 which adopted a 1-7 vs 1-12 twist for 5.56 x 45 and while it did change the port pressure, it had no meaningful difference on chamber pressure. (You can still shoot M193 ammo in an M-16 A2, A3 or A4). The dwell time of the pressure curve was changed but since we are not shooting self loading rifles, most of us will never notice the difference.

I'm sure Mr. Ackley if he were still alive would respect the decisions made by Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Olin Corporation, Colt, and FN Herstal who developed the ammo, twist, and port diameter for the M855 (SS109) ammo.

In a small capacity case like your 358 winchester you may have to use a slower buring powder w a really quick twist as we did for the M855 and M856 ammunition in the 5.56 x 45mm. (Most of this was due to use of a heavier bullet not the increased twist).

For paper punching too much of a good thing does certainly effect accuracy. A poorly made bullet will not hold up to the increased RV of a quick twist. Try shooting a M855 projectile in a 1-7 twist and then substitute a 69 grain match bullet over same case, primer and powder charge. Accuracy is amazing in the service rifle despite high twist.

A slight increase in rotatioal velocity as you suggest for the Barnes bullets will not help at all. I could not stabilize a 500 grain Barnes X in either water buckets or wood stop box with even a 1-10 twist at 2,350 fps. (It turned over 180 degrees by the 23rd board and went base forward to the 28th. An "over-stabilized" FMJ RN would go 72 boards).

PS I get 2,800 fps from my 375 improved w 300 grain Bitterroot and it has a way over stabilized 1-8 twist. With a slow burning powder like IMR 4831 its just not a problem. It is accurate too!

Andy

quote:

Everyone just go home and use what ever twist you desire!

Disregard that statement! Im poppin some more popcorn cause this is gonna get good!

Andy,
Thanks. I think we would have to get down to about 1:6.5" twist rate to have any negative effects of any consequence in a hunting rifle.

1:7" twist, yep, that's fast enough. Well researched and implemented I am sure. Thanks for your service in these developments.

Bent, for your benefit only.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Dan says the ideal twist for a .475 500gr bullet is 1x20

That is a lie. I have consistently advocated a 1-10 twist.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation.

NOTE: only an OK reputation

quote:

It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

King of the hill in popularity, certainly. But not in penetration. Please see above where I said I have not penetration tested the 470 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff:

Dan says the 1x20 in the 470 is the King...

I never said that.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I am not talking about too much twist - just enough to keep the bullet well stabilized both in air and in a heavy boned animal. I am talking 1:10 instead of 1:18.

Yes, that is what I said. I did not recommend 1:20.

quote:

If the rounds are loaded so hot that a change in twist to 1:10 makes them dangerous, then the problem is in the loads, not the twist.

Anyone who is loading their rounds so hot that they are only safe in a 1:18 twist but not in a 1:10 twist should reconsider his safety margins.

quote:

originally posted by Jeff:

I'll stick with your statement of the 1x20 twist being just about perfect for a .475 bullet, and go just a hair quicker, so I can shoot barnes bullets, should I desire.
Thanks for the advice.

Another lie. I never advocated 1:20. Only 1:10.

Bent, Jeff's charade was childish, and I did not think a detailed response was necessary.

To bring it further into focus:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Dan says the ideal twist for a .475 500gr bullet is 1x20

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I am not talking about too much twist - just enough to keep the bullet well stabilized both in air and in a heavy boned animal. I am talking 1:10 instead of 1:18.

Bent should be pardoned for his comment due to the subtlety of language, meaning, and inference shifting that Jeffe pulled off.

Bent is working in a second language here, and that is more than I can do.

However, I now wonder if Jeffe understands English as well as I had thought previously. Maybe he is working in his second language here and not doing as well as Bent "Fallsdale" is doing.

All
I've followed this Bloody exchange only to see if my 450 Rigby which Ed Plummer is building me has the concenus/correct rate of twist.. Well.. Ed agrees with the fast twist group.. I think I do too..
AK

akrange,
You are a smart man.
What twist rate does Ed like on his 450 Rigby rifles?

For those that have english as a FIRST languge (and everyone else)
This thread has been about twist and penetration. There is NO antecedent in this thread for "popularity" to enter into statements. The only "king" antecedent is regard penetration.

Sorry, Dan, your take at name calling is actually beneath your normal character. Perhaps you MEANT to say popularity... you did not.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Keep in mind that with the old 1:20 twist the 470 NE had only an ok reputation. It is only lately, with Federal making ammo, that the 470 NE became king of the hill.

NOTE: only an OK reputation


King of the hill in popularity, certainly. But not in penetration. [/QUOTE]

Ah, so this is where you decide to say what you meant. Then again, i thought you MEANT the discussion being at an end meant you where out on the disucssion. As you can see, it is sometimes hard to understand your intent vs your word choice

Dan,
Your inference of unsafe loading due twist rates. You do understand, of course, that when submitted for pressure testing, a cartidge and load are given at a specific twist? SO, should that twist be 1x10 or 1x40, that is the twist tested at. Only a fool would blaime anyone but themselve for them KNOWINGLY altering that twist rate to a higher pressure (sorry, there's no wiggle on that one) and use the same loads. Should one take a sammi proofed loaded, for a slower twist, and willfully place into a faster twist, one will exceed saami pressure. The question of degree is the only matter, as culpability would be the person that speced the rifle


Anyway, I fail to understand the sometimes behavoir of otherwise respected posters

jeffe