The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum An Indian expat tells it how he see it, and its brutal.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
we all know that gun control is to make sure no guns are used to kill people ... so stabbing is not working ... but as usual you do not see how it works and you were one of the few happy how they started to control your guns in your new country ... there is no criminilaty indeed in india and hunting is widelt spread lol ... | |||
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One of Us |
In NZ we do not go around shooting or stabbing people like you people do over there. We have some of the highest per capita gun ownership in the world despite the new regulations in the last few years. That says something about my support for the measures. If my car needs to be registered and I need a license to drive it, I see no problem registering my guns and qualifying for a license to use it. I call that BEING RESPONSIBLE. You obviously know nothing about that and are happy with shooting and lynching innocent people and making racist personal attacks out of context on this thread. Idiot.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Moderator |
In america, driving a car is a privilege - firearm ownership is a right but we are citizens, not subjects -- say, i thought you were the expert all things american opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
That's fine for you, Naki--you seem happy to live where your right to defend yourself and family are subject to government dictates and majority whim. You live in a country that is a human rights denier--denies its citizen-subjects the fundamental right to self-defense. The US does recognize the fundamental human right to self-defense--to keep and bear arms--by our Constitution. I don't want to lose that right in order to become like NZ. | |||
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| One of Us |
Roland How many people in the US are killed as a result of self-defence versus innocent people killed by criminals & Law enforcement? The need for self-defence is a high crime rate. We do not have that in NZ. Our laws prohibit explicitly the use of the firearm for self-defence. Case laws in an NZ court have made exceptions where home invasion has been defended with illegal firearms and ended in no conviction. World human rights index shows the US as almost a FAIL! NZ is among the highest - high freedom. So, the US is far from a free society and definitely not a very safe one. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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| One of Us |
Naki In NZ last 1-2 weeks a baby was stabbed to death and its mother and 4 siblings also stabbed. In the same week, 2 police officers were targeted and run over by a scumbag in a car, resulting in the death of one officer. Gang related gun crime is on the rise. How do you reconcile those actions with your above statements. | |||
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| One of Us |
This is where Naki and I differ the most. We always had high quality respect for firearms in the licensed firearms community, and overall low gun crime from legal owners. In fact so much so that the police and govt let firearms licensing slip and defunded it. As well as stripping the volunteer agency that doid a lot of the licensing work of its role and centralising licensing. Overworking a small group. Our licensing was robust in idea and potential agency. The idea was that it didn't matter what guns you owned if you were found to be safe and responsible. It worked well. Then they let the vetting slip and Tarrant slipped through by blatant failure of the officers responsible to not do the relevant checks. They also allowed a known loop hole too exist despite warnings. the end result was the tragedy and because they didn't want to bear responsibility themselves, they laid the blame on us and scapegoated us. That Naki dosnt feel any anger at all that, says much too me. Our new laws are a penalty on the all ready law abiding, for something we had no part in creating. The new laws have made illegal guns more valuable and those that posses them, more ready to use them in crime. Its created a black market for importation of illegal guns. In short its a clusterfuck and we as law abiding gun owners should be upset at all of it, and ready to condemn such. | |||
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| Moderator |
(sorry shanks) Hey, little Naki -- tell me again the DGP and GDP per capita between the two? yep, you are a subject, and not a freeman and you CHOSE to migrate there? and THEN buy a business dependent on the US?/ opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Naki is wrong again. Our laws do not explicitly prohibit firearms for self defence. You can not use self defence as a reason to get a licence is all. Our self defence, or defence of others laws, require that your choice of self defence method must be proportionate too the attack. There's a wide margin in there. | |||
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| One of Us |
you cannot pretend someone is racist or idiot because you do not agree with his/her opinion ...next thing for me will be bigot then right wing lol ... im glad to hear you re happy with licensing of the guns and no fear of what the government will do with the fact they know what you have ... this is the exact reason we do not have anymore a long gun registry in canada ... look up what they did with handguns and semi auto rifles ... but i imagine you do not own them so you do not care ... for the rest as others have postes criminals will use any tools they can find to kill people ... enjoy your freedom. | |||
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| One of Us |
seems most of the western countries have the same kind and especially in the commonwealth like we have here in canada. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yep and unless its very egregious, Jurys don't tend to convict on self defence cases anyway. | |||
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| One of Us |
In most US states, if somone breaks and enters an occupied dwelling, they are presumed to intend harm to the inhabitants... and may be shot. If in NZ self-defense really is not a legitimate purpose for licensing a gun, then pray tell what is? As I said, self-defense is a fundamental human right. It's an instinct, for Chrissakes! Even a trapped animal will try to defend itself. Pass laws against it or to prevent it? Might as well pass a law against procreation. To defend yourself, you need to have what the bad guys have: a gun. Governments that pass laws against self-defense with guns, or punish people for exercising the right, are human rights deniers, imho. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's probably not full consolation for someone put to the expense of defending themself in a prosecution, and probably had to sell their home to do so. | |||
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| One of Us |
Man you have done this a few times now. That's not in any way what can be read from my statements. Self defence is recognised as a fundamental right of course. Stupid to think not. But the defence is relative too the threat. So shooting someone yelling at you will not slide, likewise a big man shooting a boy with a baseball bat etc. But an old lady shooting an intruder in her home most likely will. In fact I can not think of a single legitimate case of an intruder being shot in a home, that's ended in conviction of the homeowner. Legitimate purpose for firearms ownership is Hunting, shooting targets, pest control, work. Licences are not turned down unless you have a history of mental illness, violence, or association with terrorists or crime organisations. Naki is correct in that issue. We have very few killings or violence towards homeowners from intruders, and we have next to no killing of intruders. So id say the system works. My only question is given the system works, why did we need to change it at all? | |||
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| One of Us |
You're kind of testy today, aren't you, Shanks? You said "unless its very egregious, Jurys don't tend to convict on self defence cases anyway." You sound like the jury verdict is the accused's remedy if prosecuted for defending themself. It's not that there's abuse in prosecuting them in the first place. How about laws that respect the right to self-defense in the first place? If someone is coming at me with a ball bat--a deadly weapon--I shouldn't have to stop and figure out if he's smaller than me before I defend myself. You don't see a problem with laws that limit your permitted uses to activites that don't include self-defense? Didn't you say as much? If so, why so defensive? | |||
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| One of Us |
It's real simple, You have a right to defend yourself. If you have actually defended yourself, and truely had concern for your self or others, then a court case is of minor consideration. But if you as you say, feel you need to shoot an unarmed person or a kid with a bat, then big ups too you, You will likely go to jail In NZ if its considered the action was unwarranted. It actually has nothing to do with firearms. Any means of "defence" that is unwarranted or over the top will see you face the same, most likely manslaughter charge. Knife, bat, fists or feet. And I don't think you are understanding properly. listing self defence is a premeditation. We have to have our guns and ammo stored separately and locked away. This is because there are more cases of accidental shootings where guns have been left about, than defence or attack shootings. And I am relatively happy with the system except the regisration and confiscation that went on. And it is worth comparing systems by outcomes. NZ- total homicides-2.6 per hundred thousand Number of firearms per 100 people 26.3 Total firearms deaths per 100 Thousand 1.24 US-Total homicides per 100 thousand -6.4 number of firearms per 100 people 120 Total firearms deaths per 100 thousand- 12.21 SO yeah, the restraint caused by potential penalty for indiscriminate action seems to have a valid outcome. And having gunds locked away seems to show a positive return on careless use or children picking them up. | |||
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| One of Us |
And yep, I think Im validly testy when mischaracterisations of what's been said amount to gross hyperbole. | |||
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| One of Us |
I disagree with your first statement. Gun laws in the US aren't the cause of a higher murder rate. I agree with your second statement. I keep my guns locked away out of concern for my grandchildren. I think those who allow kids access to a gun should be held legally accountable. | |||
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| One of Us |
Just where did I mischaracterize you? Kind of egotistical to think the whole post was addressed to you, when I'm simultaneously carrying on a debate with Naki. The part you quote was addressed to his argument that the US is a human rights abuser, according to some nonsensical scale he cited. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's either BS Roland. Or careless posting. If you intend to respond to someone who hasn't posted recently, as in the next 7 posts, Quote them or address them so that anybody could have a clue. Instead of replying to next post. | |||
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| One of Us |
I'll give your advice all the consideration it deserves. | |||
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| One of Us |
You talking to me? Or was that a PM?  | |||
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| One of Us |
and there is a valid point for all of us for sure regardless if laws are in place or not. | |||
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| One of Us |
In some other parts of the world (Africa) you cannot apply for a handgun permit for sporting purposes; only for self-defense. Yes, read again: FOR SELF DEFENSE i.e. shoot any matherchod who has an intent to cause bodily harm. | |||
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| One of Us |
I had a black PH from Tanzania tell me of a time that there was some cretin running around with a machete hacking at people in his village. He called the police and they came and got the guy (after shooting him...) They then told him if he ever wasted their time again and didn't shoot the guy himself that they would pull his gun license... Dunno how true that story was, but it doesn't sound too out of line for down there. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think its arguable that guns laws are, and here's why, and why I actually think that it could be a positive for American gun owners. First off, there are things that Most NZ gun owners would love to have re US gun rights. The 2nd give security in knowing you can freely own and use firearms without the whims of politics. That's great! But I think it also may introduce an over confidence and Laissez Faire attitude as well. The great benefit of a licensing system, for my mind anyway, is it stops the shit heads and crims from easy access to guns. The violent and repeat offenders, the gang members, the domestic violence perpetrators. That's where much of the gun death statistics come from. Secondly, it does make us more aware of the cost of ownership, and stopping kids etc getting guns. We do not have school shootings for example. And thirdly Its also a safeguard against suicide with firearms.We take that quite responsibly as a community, and as example, when we- a group of mates- became aware a friend was suicidal over a divorce. He sent a settle my affairs note too his lawyer, who also knew me and immediately rang me. We did 3 things. First we set up a search for him and found him, at the same time we went too his house and secured his firearms, and thirdly we got him to surrender his licence and 3 of us held his firearms for him until he was well again and the police gave his licence back. SO yep there are some benefits and downsides too your system, and benefits and downsides to ours. You guys have 11 times the firearms fatalities, in arguably a nation with a higher standard of living. It's worth asking why? Because the positive in stopping those mentioned gun deaths is a big lowering in statistics and also removing the association between them and decent gun users. And with that the removal of high deaths as a reason to curtail the 2nd. Because you can have a licence system and retain the right to bear arms. | |||
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| One of Us |
Rest assured there was nothing inflated in that story. When you live in a leftist/woke-free society, the rules of the game are very different. One outfitter (white) who was entertaining his client at an open-air restaurant one evening noticed 3 individuals in overcoats entering the premises; he watched them carefully and realized they were up to no good. Sure enough moments later one emerged from the cashier's office and began shooting in the air; the outfitter pulled his concealed 45 and plugged all 3 of which 2 were DRT and the 3rd made it to a hospital and croaked. End result: a firm handshake by the Chief of Police and a couple of celebratory crates of beer splashed out with the squad. | |||
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| One of Us |
You don't necessarily need a firearm to commit suicide as there are so many other options available. But I must concede that a gunshot to the head is probably the most humane way to go, rather messy but works. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes, the painlessness of a firearm must make it an attractive method if one is available. But the big point is people will kill themselves if they really wish, but removing firearms from the statistics helps us as a group. | |||
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| One of Us |
I can all but guarantee that if we had that system, he would never get his gun license back. Over here, once you have been adjudicated mentally ill, you are on the "no" list. Yes there are some nuances, but it still gets abused by the government. To some extent, that is part of why so many are absolutely against giving the government the power to do some of that.
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| One of Us |
if you quoted me we do not have 11 times firearms fatalities in canada compared to new zealand and i will repeat what i wrote the false security of thinking politicans do not think why they want you to have a license and registering your firearms you are delusonial to say the least ... i will repeat look up what happened in canada with handguns and semi auto rifles and the crimes and shootings were not coming from registered firearms,and i will add killers will find other tools if they cannot have access to guns ,,,... to add up you cannot buy or purchase handguns anymore in canada and thinking criminals do not use them because you needed a license is wrong thinking as gangbangers are still using them and are getting with no problem ... | |||
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| One of Us |
Giving the government power to license also gives the power to deny the license. The bureaucrats or voters can narrow and narrow the qualifications for a license until the process is illusory; you have no right to bear arms, even if they say you do. The US does have FBI background checks for all sales, except for private and gun show sales. The process can be avoided, as can the the rest of the world's licensing and bans, by thievery and black market sales. I'd bet that most gang shootings in the US are committed with stolen or black-market guns. And no, Shanks, this post is not only in reply to you; it's a contribution to the forum discussion. | |||
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| Moderator |
there is no such thing as a "gunshow loophole" never has been, since background checks were instituted - i'll bet dollars to donuts that i've had more tables more times at a gunshow than yourself - outright LIE, perpetrated by the left - these is NO such thing as a gunshow loophole -- dealers MUST run background checks - private persons can sell their guns -- headless is a liar, but we knew that oh, and there's also no such thing as a civilian "assault weapon" just to be clear - an ar15, a semi-auto, is LESS "deadly" than grandpa's remington semi auto 30-06 -- only a D*MN FOOL would say a 223 is more deadly than a 30-06 -- Eugene designed the round to WOUND .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Sorry, not quoting you as much as joining the conversation with Roland re Us-NZ comparison. | |||
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One of Us |
Freedom can cost but freedom is also priceless and that Priceless sticker is treasured here in US No politician has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do as law abiding citizen Rest of the world can do what they want | |||
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| One of Us |
That's interesting. When you say Govt, you mean federal? or bureaucracy? I.E. the police? We have an important separation between police and govt here, that means the police are independent on all but major policy. In that for example, the govt can mandate that the police focus on gun crime, but its over to police how they do so. The thinking as far as Ive seen it. From both police and courts, is that good mental wellbeing is contributed to by allowing people to get out and enjoy their recreations, and In NZ that includes hunting etc. It's a trust based system between the authorities and firearm users. Admittedly a lot of that trust was badly eroded over the last period, But as far as they can, the firearms licensing authority is trying to reclaim it. Our pro gun minister for firearms is right now proposing to re look at the legislation and put some modifications that make it more workable before parliament, and we are called on to make submissions right now. So will be interesting to see what eventuates. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ill take testy, over petulant any day. But nice to know you ended up giving my advice the consideration it deserved. Given you are still thinking about it.  | |||
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| One of Us |
I guess I should put that limitation on each post? That it's not addressed solely to shanks? (See how artfully I did that.) | |||
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| One of Us |
The federal laws for the most part affect acquiring a firearm, although they do have some say in who is eligible to own one. Typically the mentally ill, the chemically dependent, and those with a felony or domestic violence conviction. States traditionally were able to be more strict but some recent court decisions are changing that a bit lately here. Of course, the feds tend not to get involved in most criminal cases here, even though possession of an unregistered machine gun or short barreled rifle is a significant federal crime, most gangbangers with a switched Glock don’t even get federally charged. I find your comment on self defense being allowed in the commonwealth rather interesting… I haven’t been to New Zealand, but I was expressly told when I got my gun permit in Australia that I was NOT allowed to use a firearm in self defense against a person. That may have been an overreach but it was what the agent I cleared my rifles with felt obligated to tell me. Then there is the way it gets reported on happening in England. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum An Indian expat tells it how he see it, and its brutal.
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