quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
How long was India a separate nation (for lack of a better term) before Britain?

And my moral compass is fine if I am not supporting arranged marriages and naming people by birth to a caste system that subjects some to perpetual underclass. How’s yours, since you seem to keep minimizing and defending it?

The caste system predates the Raj.

It was undoubtedly very abusive to the lower castes before the Europeans set foot. Maybe the British made it worse, I don’t know, but a system that condemns some as “untouchables” by accident of birth has its warts.

I at no time accused ALL Indians of bad behavior, but the continuation of a birth caste system by modern India is a black mark on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

Please stop embarrassing yourself with such ignorant and ridiculous posts.

The British started colonising India in the late 1600 after pretending to trade on fair terms. They left in 1947. Do the maths. India has been independent for less than 78 years while the British were in charge for over 250 years.

How does 78 years become "much longer than" 250+ years?

Do you know how many Indian soldiers died in the two world wars fighting for the British?

I definitely question your MORAL COMPAS.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If I chose to move to India, I would expect that I would have to adapt to all and adopt some of the local customs. Ditto China, Mexico, NZ, or Zimbabwe.

If you immigrate, that’s part of the rationale. “There” is better than “here” for some reason.

It would make sense to me that an Indian expat would not have great things to say about where he came from, if for no other reason as to explain why they moved.

Caste systems (even if it’s a bastardized Brit version) and arraigned marriages are antithetical to the US culture as a whole. You want to do that, don’t come here.

As to your point re the British Raj changing the caste structure, Naki, as you point out, India has a very long history and has been free of British rule for a lot longer than they were subject to it- why has it not reverted back to “what it was” before the Brit’s if the Indians think their system was and is better? After all, India never was really subjected by the British, but rather the Brits used locals to do the dirty work. After all, India has been its own country for better than 80 years since Ghandi helped get the empire out.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

You are actively supporting a post that condemns ALL Indians. A post that has no corroboration or truth. A post that is intended only to insult and stir sh!t.

You are using your own ignorance and prejudices to claim somehow that the caste system defines modern India. Does racism and corruption define current US? I think it does. Hence my comment about YOUR moral compass.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

You are actively supporting a post that condemns ALL Indians. A post that has no corroboration or truth. A post that is intended only to insult and stir shit.
No, I didn’t get involved until you made some very overstated comments.
You are using your own ignorance and prejudices to claim somehow that the caste system defines modern India.

The fact that the current government of modern India has not made strong moves on the lines of our civil rights legislation IS a stain on the modern Indian state.

Does racism and corruption define current US? I think it does. Ok, and we have done something about it. Maybe it’s not as effective as one could wish, but it is illegal to discriminate here.

Hence my comment about YOUR moral compass.

Yet you persist in defending and minimizing the Indian behavior. That’s pretty hypocritical, isn’t it?

India as a nation or as an empire has a varied history for over 2000 years. That is lot longer than the 250 years that the US has been around. India has had many rulers, dynasties and historical iterations, much like most of Europe and even the US.

At one time much of current US belonged to the Spanish / Mexico.

So they have this long history, and you claim all the abuses are due to the British, and they haven’t stopped it yet? How … civilized.

Zuckerberg was referred to regarding the lack of freedom and the use of media power to suppress freedom and truth.

Biden administration was only asking for the truth and to stop the hate filled fake BS being spread.
That’s not what Zuckerberg is claiming.

Remember a few years ago how you condemned Obama for "milking" the birther campaign but did not condemn the hateful campaign itself? the last time I raised it, you seem to have forgotten or denied it.

Obama is a masterful politician. He played it to his advantage. That was my claim. I never said that I supported the claim that he was not a US citizen.

A lot of marriages are arranged in the West. It is common among royalty and the very exclusive elite. They marry among themselves most of the time and the couple are introduced in a very controlled environment. Donald Trump arranged his daughter's marriage.

Please stop spouting nonsense about things you know nothing about. You have no clue about the multiple contexts within which arranged marriages work and how this has evolved and changed in India in the last 100 years. Your keyboard expertise is laughable at best.

You need to get your story straight, either it’s common in the US (and thus I know about it and am being hypocritical) or it’s not the same.

In the US, if you go against your family, you might get disowned. Over there, what happens to a woman who doesn’t comply with family wishes? Honor killings?

Your moral compass is definitely broken as Trump publicly incited the mob to attack the capitol. He said he would join them. His chauffer refused to take him to the riot and Trump physically tried to force the chauffer. It is on video for the whole world to see the evidence. It also well known that he wants to prevent Jack Smith's report from being released.

Let’s see what proof comes out with the report.

He does not want to be held accountable.

No he doesn’t. And so?

Yet you defend him and condemn ALL Indians.

Hardly. It’s a stain on the Indian nation and government that they do not address this attack on human rights. I’m sure many Indians would agree.

You are defending the widespread Indian bad behavior and trying to compare it to a few Americans.

I’m not the one going on about moral compasses, yet you can’t see the blatant hypocrisy that you are espousing? In India it’s ok because the British “made us change our ways” to the worse, and we are not fixing the abuses; but the US it’s worse because some folks do things against the law or morality even though the vast majority don’t?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
How long was India a separate nation (for lack of a better term) before Britain?

And my moral compass is fine if I am not supporting arranged marriages and naming people by birth to a caste system that subjects some to perpetual underclass. How’s yours, since you seem to keep minimizing and defending it?

The caste system predates the Raj.

It was undoubtedly very abusive to the lower castes before the Europeans set foot. Maybe the British made it worse, I don’t know, but a system that condemns some as “untouchables” by accident of birth has its warts.

I at no time accused ALL Indians of bad behavior, but the continuation of a birth caste system by modern India is a black mark on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

Please stop embarrassing yourself with such ignorant and ridiculous posts.

The British started colonising India in the late 1600 after pretending to trade on fair terms. They left in 1947. Do the maths. India has been independent for less than 78 years while the British were in charge for over 250 years.

How does 78 years become "much longer than" 250+ years?

Do you know how many Indian soldiers died in the two world wars fighting for the British?

I definitely question your MORAL COMPAS.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If I chose to move to India, I would expect that I would have to adapt to all and adopt some of the local customs. Ditto China, Mexico, NZ, or Zimbabwe.

If you immigrate, that’s part of the rationale. “There” is better than “here” for some reason.

It would make sense to me that an Indian expat would not have great things to say about where he came from, if for no other reason as to explain why they moved.

Caste systems (even if it’s a bastardized Brit version) and arraigned marriages are antithetical to the US culture as a whole. You want to do that, don’t come here.

As to your point re the British Raj changing the caste structure, Naki, as you point out, India has a very long history and has been free of British rule for a lot longer than they were subject to it- why has it not reverted back to “what it was” before the Brit’s if the Indians think their system was and is better? After all, India never was really subjected by the British, but rather the Brits used locals to do the dirty work. After all, India has been its own country for better than 80 years since Ghandi helped get the empire out.

quote:

You are actively supporting a post that condemns ALL Indians. A post that has no corroboration or truth. A post that is intended only to insult and stir shit.
Point 1 -No, I didn’t get involved until you made some very overstated comments.



You are using your own ignorance and prejudices to claim somehow that the caste system defines modern India.

Point 2 The fact that the current government of modern India has not made strong moves on the lines of our civil rights legislation IS a stain on the modern Indian state.


Does racism and corruption define current US? I think it does. Ok, and we have done something about it. Maybe it’s not as effective as one could wish, but it is illegal to discriminate here.

Hence my comment about YOUR moral compass.

Point 3 Yet you persist in defending and minimizing the Indian behavior. That’s pretty hypocritical, isn’t it?

India as a nation or as an empire has a varied history for over 2000 years. That is lot longer than the 250 years that the US has been around. India has had many rulers, dynasties and historical iterations, much like most of Europe and even the US.

At one time much of current US belonged to the Spanish / Mexico.

Point 4 So they have this long history, and you claim all the abuses are due to the British, and they haven’t stopped it yet? How … civilized.

Zuckerberg was referred to regarding the lack of freedom and the use of media power to suppress freedom and truth.

Biden administration was only asking for the truth and to stop the hate filled fake BS being spread.
Point 5 That’s not what Zuckerberg is claiming.

Remember a few years ago how you condemned Obama for "milking" the birther campaign but did not condemn the hateful campaign itself? the last time I raised it, you seem to have forgotten or denied it.

Point 6 Obama is a masterful politician. He played it to his advantage. That was my claim. I never said that I supported the claim that he was not a US citizen.

A lot of marriages are arranged in the West. It is common among royalty and the very exclusive elite. They marry among themselves most of the time and the couple are introduced in a very controlled environment. Donald Trump arranged his daughter's marriage.

Please stop spouting nonsense about things you know nothing about. You have no clue about the multiple contexts within which arranged marriages work and how this has evolved and changed in India in the last 100 years. Your keyboard expertise is laughable at best.

Point 7 You need to get your story straight, either it’s common in the US (and thus I know about it and am being hypocritical) or it’s not the same.

In the US, if you go against your family, you might get disowned. Over there, what happens to a woman who doesn’t comply with family wishes? Honor killings?

Your moral compass is definitely broken as Trump publicly incited the mob to attack the capitol. He said he would join them. His chauffer refused to take him to the riot and Trump physically tried to force the chauffer. It is on video for the whole world to see the evidence. It also well known that he wants to prevent Jack Smith's report from being released.

Let’s see what proof comes out with the report.

He does not want to be held accountable.

Point 8 No he doesn’t. And so?

Yet you defend him and condemn ALL Indians.

Point 9 Hardly. It’s a stain on the Indian nation and government that they do not address this attack on human rights. I’m sure many Indians would agree.

You are defending the widespread Indian bad behavior and trying to compare it to a few Americans.

I’m not the one going on about moral compasses, yet you can’t see the blatant hypocrisy that you are espousing? In India it’s ok because the British “made us change our ways” to the worse, and we are not fixing the abuses; but the US it’s worse because some folks do things against the law or morality even though the vast majority don’t?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:


The real shame is that the US and (you and your ilk) still claim that somehow the US is the champion of freedom and human rights. The US is so close to FAILED score that is it is a DISGRACE.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:


Doc, The fact remains that the so called "leader of the free world and champion of freedom" (the USA) is a disgrace at the moment with an almost failed human Rights rating

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
In this Corner, The former President of the United States and current President of the Shady Pines! Mr. Mumbles, the Mouth Gasper in Chief, and The Depends Boomer, Joe Biden!

In this Corner, The Indian from Kiwi Land, the Head of the Caste, Naki, Never Reported on a Hunt, Hunter!

Live from The Carter Center, February 13, 2025 prime time at 8:30 pm. Contact your cable, stoke provider today. $75.00 dollars. Tickets start at $250.00 dollars.

With Special Guest Moderator Jake Paul.
Available live Streaming on DAZAN, Tucker Carlson.Com, Netflix, and Joe Rogan Experience.

Judges are Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, and Nerdholic.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Better? Yes, but I was trying to bring the money and buys by having Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Fact check seems to be nonexistent here.

Not a surprise.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Better? Yes, but I was trying to bring the money and buys by having Paul.

Okay, Paul as mod, Izzy as Joe's interpretor, and Sharon as ozzys interpretor ?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
You think it is funny to insult an entire nation of people that constitute almost 20% of the population of the world and contribute a lot more to your own countries in far excess of what you do?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Well, Ozzy did do a song called “Perry Mason” so he’s gotta understand debates and courts, right?

“I asbb, I swedbg, F$&k it, you know what I mean, wanker!”

This sounds like a real Hollywood TV winner!

Lheym, are you sure you don’t produce reality TV for a living?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
You think it is funny to insult an entire nation of people that constitute almost 20% of the population of the world and contribute a lot more to your own countries in far excess of what you do?

No, criticizing an entire friendly country would be remarkably stupid and leads to push back from the people of that country. Read that again, little naki.. this is YOUR mo, sir.

You aren't seriously comparing the efforts of an entire class of economic migrants against a single person, are you? This is called a "stupid argument"

While we are on it, if the US is soooooooooo horrible and racist, why do people come here? Just because it's the land of unlimited opportunity... oh, and no caste system

What we are making fun of is YOUR debating skills, and offering a "weight-class" bout for you. Jobama is free starting next Monday afternoon. When is a good time for you?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, India is a nation. It is self ruled.

What is problematic is when an Indian expatriate who is living in the west starts claiming the west is worse and that India has no problems compared to the west I never said this. A false and untrue allegation .

(And that a lot of India's problems are the west’s fault. I never said this. A false and untrue allegation. What I keep pointing out is the historical facts that you ignore or deny. Many here claim that Colonialism was good for the local people. More importantly you are avoiding the context of this discussion - the OP meant to insult ALL Indians and some others who were insulting me BEFORE I joined in the thread. You took their side. Look at the mirror and see if your moral compass is working. You really find my position problematic? )

To western eyes, the caste system is essentially a variant of slavery. Arraigned marriages where the people involved have minimal to no say is likewise a violation. You have the facts wrong. You know nothing about how the caste system works or how arranged marriages work. Keyboard university has no credibility. You would not use such information in your medical practice. You owe a lot more respect to ALL Indians and their culture, which you seem happy to insult. "Western eyes" are ignorant, bigoted and prejudiced when looking at other cultures. This has been proven in history for centuries. The idea of racial superiority (as opposed to tribalism) is a modern Western myth from the last 300 odd years. Most European countries had BLACK aristocracy in the 1400s and 1500s.

Here you are questioning my morality because I say this and state that the nation you keep defending has a problem there, and your response is to say that the west is worse and I don’t know what I’m talking about. You are morally bankrupt when you insult an entire nation and its people. The west IS definitely worse when it wants to oppress, exploit and control other nations and then claim that it is helping them or is "the leader of the free world"! This is not just my opinion but actually documented by historical academic studies for decades. The United Nations and several other independent organisations have raised this issue for over a century.

Well, maybe I’m not aware in detail how much it is practiced in India… but I do work with Indian immigrants (who are highly educated and respected colleagues) who are not very complimentary of Indian society. They are proud of Indian culture and history, and can point out things that are admirable about their background, but most are here because India would not let them attain their dreams, hopes, and goals. I have stated this several times before - I can fully identify with that as I have similar views. Yet you fail to acknowledge that and keep making false allegations against me.

As my one cardiologist friend says, if I liked India better, then why did I uproot my family and myself and move to Minnesota? My leaving India has nothing to do with any of the topics I discuss here. This point is used by racist haters to try and discredit me. Distractions, deflections and obfuscation are not credible for any debate. Moral compass again

Pride in your heritage is one thing. Claiming its superiority is another.That is the point - my arguments are against the white supremacists and colonial bigots here. Like the OP for example. Also the other racists like Lane, Jtex, Jeffpee etc. whom you keep aligning with. You have failed to acknowledge the failings of the West & the US in particular. YOU raised the issue of human rights when the US has such a miserable record. Its record is FAR WORSE than Zimbabwe in the context of comparing the relative resources and power it wields. The US record on Human rights is far worse than South Sudan or Libera when compared to the claims it makes as the leader of the free world etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
You think it is funny to insult an entire nation of people that constitute almost 20% of the population of the world and contribute a lot more to your own countries in far excess of what you do?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, India is a nation. It is self ruled.

What is problematic is when an Indian expatriate who is living in the west starts claiming the west is worse and that India has no problems compared to the west. (And that a lot of indias problems are the west’s fault.)

To western eyes, the caste system is essentially a variant of slavery. Arraigned marriages where the people involved have minimal to no say is likewise a violation.

Here you are questioning my morality because I say this and state that the nation you keep defending has a problem there, and your response is to say that the west is worse and I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Well, maybe I’m not aware in detail how much it is practiced in India… but I do work with Indian immigrants (who are highly educated and respected colleagues) who are not very complimentary of Indian society. They are proud of Indian culture and history, and can point out things that are admirable about their background, but most are here because India would not let them attain their dreams, hopes, and goals.

As my one cardiologist friend says, if I liked India better, then why did I uproot my family and myself and move to Minnesota?

Pride in your heritage is one thing. Claiming its superiority is another.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I read the above post by Dr. Butler and have had no issue w opposing his positions.

The above is straight truth homes as the kids said when I was young.

Dr. Butler has not insulted all Indian people.

He has accurately pointed out the immorality of the government’s structure and power in India.

Age there good Indians. Yes, I like one booking agent. He is Indian. However, the structure of your political and economic system, those who support it, those who allow it, and those who refuse to sacrifice their position to end it is the anthesis of the American and Western Enlightened Experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, India is a nation. It is self ruled.

What is problematic is when an Indian expatriate who is living in the west starts claiming the west is worse and that India has no problems compared to the west. (And that a lot of indias problems are the west’s fault.)

To western eyes, the caste system is essentially a variant of slavery. Arraigned marriages where the people involved have minimal to no say is likewise a violation.

Here you are questioning my morality because I say this and state that the nation you keep defending has a problem there, and your response is to say that the west is worse and I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Well, maybe I’m not aware in detail how much it is practiced in India… but I do work with Indian immigrants (who are highly educated and respected colleagues) who are not very complimentary of Indian society. They are proud of Indian culture and history, and can point out things that are admirable about their background, but most are here because India would not let them attain their dreams, hopes, and goals.

As my one cardiologist friend says, if I liked India better, then why did I uproot my family and myself and move to Minnesota?

Pride in your heritage is one thing. Claiming its superiority is another.

Very good post!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Since you have decided to be civil, I will respond.

Youn have failed to address the context of the thread - a bigoted hateful lie. Intended to insult. Others chipped in to insult me while I was on holiday and not part of the discussion. Doc butler joined that crowd & so did you.

Western experiment is not enlightened. It is anchored in oppression & exploitation. It has a long history of broken promises, broken treaties and much worse. It has a long history of genocide of a myriad cultures & communities for over 500 years. Several other cultures were far more enlightened while the West was in the primitive dark ages for over 3000 years.

The US is not enlightened. It has Trump back again. Are you saying that Trump is an example of a leader who sacrifices his interest for the country? Go figure.

The US has almost a FAILURE score on Human Rights. That is not Enlightenment and it is not a good standard for a society or a government (remember Trump).

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I read the above post by Dr. Butler and have had no issue w opposing his positions.

The above is straight truth homes as the kids said when I was young.

Dr. Butler has not insulted all Indian people.

He has accurately pointed out the immorality of the government’s structure and power in India.

Age there good Indians. Yes, I like one booking agent. He is Indian. However, the structure of your political and economic system, those who support it, those who allow it, and those who refuse to sacrifice their position to end it is the anthesis of the American and Western Enlightened Experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Since you have decided to be civil, I will respond.

Youn have failed to address the context of the thread - a bigoted hateful lie. Intended to insult. Others chipped in to insult me while I was on holiday and not part of the discussion. Doc butler joined that crowd & so did you.

Western experiment is not enlightened. It is anchored in oppression & exploitation. It has a long history of broken promises, broken treaties and much worse. It has a long history of genocide of a myriad cultures & communities for over 500 years. Several other cultures were far more enlightened while the West was in the primitive dark ages for over 3000 years.

The US is not enlightened. It has Trump back again. Are you saying that Trump is an example of a leader who sacrifices his interest for the country? Go figure.

The US has almost a FAILURE score on Human Rights. That is not Enlightenment and it is not a good standard for a society or a government (remember Trump).

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I read the above post by Dr. Butler and have had no issue w opposing his positions.

The above is straight truth homes as the kids said when I was young.

Dr. Butler has not insulted all Indian people.

He has accurately pointed out the immorality of the government’s structure and power in India.

Age there good Indians. Yes, I like one booking agent. He is Indian. However, the structure of your political and economic system, those who support it, those who allow it, and those who refuse to sacrifice their position to end it is the anthesis of the American and Western Enlightened Experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Since you have decided to be civil, I will respond.

Youn have failed to address the context of the thread - a bigoted hateful lie. Intended to insult. Others chipped in to insult me while I was on holiday and not part of the discussion. Doc butler joined that crowd & so did you.

Western experiment is not enlightened. It is anchored in oppression & exploitation. It has a long history of broken promises, broken treaties and much worse. It has a long history of genocide of a myriad cultures & communities for over 500 years. Several other cultures were far more enlightened while the West was in the primitive dark ages for over 3000 years.

The US is not enlightened. It has Trump back again. Are you saying that Trump is an example of a leader who sacrifices his interest for the country? Go figure.

The US has almost a FAILURE score on Human Rights. That is not Enlightenment and it is not a good standard for a society or a government (remember Trump).

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I read the above post by Dr. Butler and have had no issue w opposing his positions.

The above is straight truth homes as the kids said when I was young.

Dr. Butler has not insulted all Indian people.

He has accurately pointed out the immorality of the government’s structure and power in India.

Age there good Indians. Yes, I like one booking agent. He is Indian. However, the structure of your political and economic system, those who support it, those who allow it, and those who refuse to sacrifice their position to end it is the anthesis of the American and Western Enlightened Experiment.

Nakihunter, it does look to me that the OP and replies were targeted at goading you when you weren't around to defend yourself.

It's true that Western Europeans colonized and exploited other cultures for almost 500 years. And the US had its own shorter period of exploitation of other cultures.

How might the world be different if the American "black ships" hadn't forced Japan to open its doors? Would things be better or worse for the world?

But you're beating a dead horse--I doubt anyone here denies history. (But we have Trumpies here, so you never know.)

I agree it was unenlightened for the US to elect a criminal, fraudulent narcissist to the most powerful position in the planet--mostly because the price of milk and eggs went up twenty percent in the past four years, and because Biden left the doors open to illegal immigration. No one will ever win by betting on the intelligence or principles of the average American voter. But that's another subject.

You constantly focus only on the negative of Western civilization. If not for the Western experiment, you and I wouldn't be communicating now. And you'd be stuck back in India in whatever caste you were born into.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
How about, "India is shit and full of shit people and the west doesn't comprehend that."

Are you saying you didn't have Naki in mind when you posted that?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
How about, "India is shit and full of shit people and the west doesn't comprehend that."

Are you saying you didn't have Naki in mind when you posted that?

Absolutely I didn't. read it in context. My ire in that case and brief description was aimed at those who do not wish to watch a video, but that ask or demand a description. Of which any description I give will not be able to give the correct or full context of the video.
Honestly if people don't want to, or can't watch a vid link, then don't comment.

And Roland you left out on purpose, the pre qualifier I put in place explaining that was not my view, as well as when replying to yourself, I very explicitly said, "in relation too the link", and chose words from the link itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

I used to respect your post for a long time. In recent times you have lost your moral compass as you keep making FALSE statements and allegations.

Please see below.

I demand an explanation for the reasons behind this deliberate false propaganda from you. It implies some sort of a personal attack. Why?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, India is a nation. It is self ruled.

What is problematic is when an Indian expatriate who is living in the west starts claiming the west is worse and that India has no problems compared to the west I never said this. A false and untrue allegation . The implication by saying look over there every time a fault is mentioned in India is the case here.

(And that a lot of India's problems are the west’s fault. I never said this. A false and untrue allegation. [COLOR:GREEN]What else can you say when you make the claim that the caste system was made worse by the British? What I keep pointing out is the historical facts that you ignore or deny. Many here claim that Colonialism was good for the local people. More importantly you are avoiding the context of this discussion - the OP meant to insult ALL Indians and some others who were insulting me BEFORE I joined in the thread. You took their side. Look at the mirror and see if your moral compass is working. You really find my position problematic? [/color]) Your position that the OP was saying all Indians are bad was false. The OP quoted an Indian expat who was saying that there were a lot (number unqualified, but obviously meant that more than one, and that you would not have to spend too much time to find someone meeting his description.) Do you deny that you could not find an unacceptable number of badly behaved Indians back home? I took their side because your counter was that the allegation was completely untrue... its not. Is it representative of the majority of Indian people? I would certainly agree that it is not.

To western eyes, the caste system is essentially a variant of slavery. Arraigned marriages where the people involved have minimal to no say is likewise a violation. You have the facts wrong. You know nothing about how the caste system works or how arranged marriages work. Keyboard university has no credibility. You would not use such information in your medical practice. You owe a lot more respect to ALL Indians and their culture, which you seem happy to insult. [COLOR:GREEN]I am more than happy to "insult" a caste system based on birth and a system where women are forced into marriages against their desires if by that the fact that I say such a system is morally repugnant to me. Most of my Indian friends and coworkers actually say it a lot more harshly than I. "Western eyes" are ignorant, bigoted and prejudiced when looking at other cultures. Depends. I will not deny there is some bigotry and prejudice. On the other hand, the idea from the west that the individual has rights is not something that is universally true of all cultures. This has been proven in history for centuries. No it is not. You can find examples of it, but the underlying philosophy is not bigoted or prejudiced. The application of it is often a problem, though. The idea of racial superiority (as opposed to tribalism) is a modern Western myth from the last 300 odd years. No, it is not a "Western Myth", it is plain old tribalism, and the white people of European ancestry have it like all people do to some extent. Western civilization would be a lot weaker than it has been if we were not making strides to overcome our tribalistic nature. Are we there yet? No. But one could argue that we are further along the continuum than most others. Most European countries had BLACK aristocracy in the 1400s and 1500s. Correction. Most European countries had members of the aristocracy that were not European in origin. That actually seems to make the point against you when you complain of western prejudice, doesn't it? The majority of the aristocracy was never outsiders, with the possible exception of England with its French (Norman) and German (House of Windsor) elements. [/color]

Here you are questioning my morality because I say this and state that the nation you keep defending has a problem there, and your response is to say that the west is worse and I don’t know what I’m talking about. You are morally bankrupt when you insult an entire nation and its people. [COLOR:GREEN]Et tu, Brutus? I never insulted the whole of Indian civilization. You just took it that way and even here are counterattacking by condemning all of western civilization. The west IS definitely worse when it wants to oppress, exploit and control other nations and then claim that it is helping them or is "the leader of the free world"! Well, the US IS the leader of the free world, for better or worse. Who is expected to foot the bill to stop Russian aggression in Ukraine? Who is expected to help keep your new island home free from the Chicoms? This is not just my opinion but actually documented by historical academic studies for decades. The United Nations and several other independent organisations have raised this issue for over a century. The UN is a joke. That you seriously think that a place like Iran has a right to complain about the US as far as civil liberties? The UN is an international debating society that is pretty lost in its ability to even find its way out of a paper bag. Did the UN do shit in Rwanda? Did the UN do anything in Bosnia? [/color]

Well, maybe I’m not aware in detail how much it is practiced in India… but I do work with Indian immigrants (who are highly educated and respected colleagues) who are not very complimentary of Indian society. They are proud of Indian culture and history, and can point out things that are admirable about their background, but most are here because India would not let them attain their dreams, hopes, and goals. I have stated this several times before - I can fully identify with that as I have similar views. Yet you fail to acknowledge that and keep making false allegations against me. Are these allegations false, or are they more a reflection of how you portray yourself here in the PF?

As my one cardiologist friend says, if I liked India better, then why did I uproot my family and myself and move to Minnesota? My leaving India has nothing to do with any of the topics I discuss here. This point is used by racist haters to try and discredit me. Distractions, deflections and obfuscation are not credible for any debate. Moral compass again [COLOR:GREEN]No, but your points are pretty clearly hypocritical. You are using the exact same means you claim are used against you. Claiming moral superiority (ie using terms like broken moral compass) while not behaving morally is hypocritical. [/color]

Pride in your heritage is one thing. Claiming its superiority is another.That is the point - my arguments are against the white supremacists and colonial bigots here. [COLOR:GREEN]The OP article was by a Indian expat. He's the bigot? Like the OP for example. Also the other racists like Lane, Jtex, Jeffpee etc. whom you keep aligning with. I tend to align myself with my ideas. If Dr. Easter says something I agree with, I say so if I am discussing it. Ditto to you. I am not going to go around calling folks names regarding this. Yet here you are and you haven't yet been able to flat out state that the caste system is abusive... You have failed to acknowledge the failings of the West & the US in particular. I am certainly able to admit the West has failed in details. The west has also failed to live up to its heritage at times as well. Colonialism was a failure because the people implementing it were using their moral purpose as a smokescreen for something unrelated. To the Belgians think highly of King Leopold and his behavior in the Congo? YOU raised the issue of human rights when the US has such a miserable record. Its record is FAR WORSE than Zimbabwe in the context of comparing the relative resources and power it wields. Here is the kicker- you expect the west to be perfect in hindsight but don't hold others to the same level because the west won? If we were like the powers we defeated (generally) we wouldn't be having this debate... You wouldn't be here. The US record on Human rights is far worse than South Sudan or Libera when compared to the claims it makes as the leader of the free world etc. You have got to be kidding. Hyperbolic hypocricy at its finest. The US is not perfect. But its done quite a bit better than the nations you named. I would also posit that we are doing a lot better than India post colonially as well. [/color]