quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Israel exists does it not. Israel has not fought a real war in my life time. Israel has recognition of major Islamic nations.

Yet they are still barraged with rockets and just incurred the deadliest attack in my lifetime…an attack equivalent to losing 50K Americans.

That is a lot of damn things.

No really those and a $5 bill will buy you cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It is not debatable that all Palestinians need killing. Israel does not believe that. That is a foolish statement void of intelligence.

I suppose the use of “all” does make it false but a helluva lot of them do.

It is what feeds the radicalization of Muslims.

Then let them remove them to safer grounds to Syria for example.

Never know until you try? How juvenile is your analysis on this issue. Hitler tried to kill all the Jews. The West and the State of Israel tried to kill all the Nazis. We still got them. We defeated the Taliban like the British tried decades ago w the “unrestricted”fighting you advocate. That was actually counter productive because the Afghan military tradition requires a belief in an equal level of violence. If you want details, I can provide them for you in a PM or email.

My family homesteaded a ranch in the middle of Comanche held ground. Quannah Parker himself has rode through it. My family still holds that property and there are no Comanche raiding them as they had in the 19th century.

Basically, when the British fought w equal violence, tools of war, the Afghans kept the peace forced on them better. When the Brie used big field guns, and such peace extracted was not followed.

We should not have stayed in the ME. We should have shattered them, dated them to make us come back, and left with knowledge that the weeds would one day need spraying again.

I can agree with you here BUT Israel cannot leave and go back across the Atlantic. They must live and deal with these problems daily. It never goes away.

What you are advocating for will create a multi front war, an Iran supported insurrection in the West Bank while fighting that multi front war, destroy Israel’s recognition, and create a political agreement between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

All of that is supposition.

That is all bad for Israel and the US.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have ZERO sympathy for any group of people who can foster a group of young men that can pile 20 bound kids and burn them alive. Their culture is beyond reform.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I have ZERO sympathy for any group of people who can foster a group of young men that can pile 20 bound kids and burn them alive. Their culture is beyond reform.

You have a simplistic view of the world.

I'm sure the family members of the Palestinians who died at the hands of Jewish terrorists during the King of David hotel bombing feel the same way you do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._David_Hotel_bombing

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
How can anyone defend Palestinians after 60 plus years of terror and constant warfare against the only true democracy in that region is beyond me
Funny thing is, Democrats defend terrorists nowadays…hmmm

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
None of what the Jewish people have been through justifies their treatment of the Palestinians, they used terrorism against the civilian population to create their nation. The drove the existing population out and have treated them like garbage for 75 years. I certainly believe that the Israelis should have a homeland, but not at the expense of the the pre-existing population that lived there first.

A viable two state solution is needed or this carnage will continue. The Israelis simply can't kill all the Arabs and the survivors will not forget, nor should they.

More on Jewish violence in Palestine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...t_political_violence

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
From an outfit called Camera which analyzes the Palestinian problem


As for Palestinian frustration, they may indeed be frustrated with more than 18 years of on-again, off-again negotiations, but the question is with whom should they be frustrated – Israel, or their own leaders? For the fact is, just as the legendary Israeli diplomat Abba Eban once said about relations between the Arabs and Israel, “The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity,” and there have been many statehood opportunities that Palestinian leaders have wilfully missed.

Why do the Palestinians refuse a negotiated peace? Because a negotiated peace means the end of the conflict, or at least promising to end the conflict and accept Israel. But the Palestinian leadership wants a state so that they can continue the conflict from a stronger position. In particular, they want a state and they want to keep pressing in every way for the “right of return” to Israel.

Israel would not agree to that in negotiations, which is why Palestinians want a state without negotiations, and without having to make any compromises.

In accord with this, at least three times the Palestinians have refused statehood when it was offered to them, most recently just a few years ago. Here are the details:

1. In 2008, after extensive talks, then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and presented a comprehensive peace plan. Olmert’s plan would have annexed the major Israeli settlements to Israel and in return given equivalent Israeli territory to the Palestinians, and would have divided Jerusalem.

Numerous settlements including Ofra, Elon Moreh, Beit El and Kiryat Arba would have been evacuated, and Hebron would have been abandoned. Tens of thousands of settlers would have been uprooted. Olmert even says preliminary agreement had been reached with Abbas on refugees and the Palestinian claim to a “right of return.”

Olmert recounted much of this in an interview with Greg Sheridan in the Australian newspaper:

From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008 I think I met with Abu Mazen more often than any Israeli leader has ever met any Arab leader. I met him more than 35 times. They were intense, serious negotiations.

On the 16th of September, 2008, I presented him (Abbas) with a comprehensive plan. It was based on the following principles.

One, there would be a territorial solution to the conflict on the basis of the 1967 borders with minor modifications on both sides. Israel will claim part of the West Bank where there have been demographic changes over the last 40 years…

And four, there were security issues. [Olmert says he showed Abbas a map, which embodied all these plans. Abbas wanted to take the map away. Olmert agreed, so long as they both signed the map. It was, from Olmert’s point of view, a final offer, not a basis for future negotiation. But Abbas could not commit. Instead, he said he would come with experts the next day.]

He (Abbas) promised me the next day his adviser would come. But the next day Saeb Erekat rang my adviser and said we forgot we are going to Amman today, let’s make it next week. I never saw him again. (Nov. 28, 2009)

And this is not just a self-serving claim by Olmert – Abbas, in an interview with Jackson Diehl of the Washington Post, confirmed the outlines of the Olmert offer and that he turned it down:

In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank — though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert “accepted the principle” of the “right of return” of Palestinian refugees — something no previous Israeli prime minister had done — and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert’s peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it’s almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.

Abbas turned it down. “The gaps were wide,” he said. (May 29, 2009)

Ha’aretz published Olmert’s map, showing a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza with a free passage route to connect them. The map, which also showed the Israeli territory that would have been swapped with the Palestinians in return for annexing some Israeli settlements to Israel, is reproduced below:
Olmert's peace proposal

2. In the summer of 2000 US President Bill Clinton hosted intense peace talks at Camp David between Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Israeli leader Ehud Barak, culminating in a comprehensive peace plan known as the Clinton Parameters, which was similar to the later Olmert Plan, though not quite as extensive.

Despite the vast concessions the plan required of Israel, Prime Minister Barak accepted President Clinton’s proposal, while Arafat refused, returned home, and launched a new terror campaign against Israeli civilians (the Second Intifada).

Despite the violence, Prime Minister Barak continued to negotiate to the end of his term, culminating in an Israeli proposal at Taba which extended the Clinton proposal. Barak offered the Palestinians all of Gaza and most of the West Bank, no Israeli control over the border with Jordan or the adjacent Jordan Valley, a small Israeli annexation around three settlement blocs balanced by an equivalent area of Israeli territory that would have been ceded to the Palestinians. As chief US negotiator Ambassador Dennis Ross put it in a FoxNews interview:

… the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous… And to connect Gaza with the West Bank, there would have been an elevated highway, an elevated railroad, to ensure that there would be not just safe passage for the Palestinians, but free passage. (Fox News, April 21, 2002)

According to Ambassador Ross, Palestinian negotiators working for Arafat wanted him to accept the Clinton Parameters, but he refused. In response to Brit Hume’s question as to why Arafat turned these deals down, Ross said:

Because fundamentally I do not believe he can end the conflict. We had one critical clause in this agreement, and that clause was, this is the end of the conflict.

Arafat’s whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you’ve got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself.

Here’s the Taba map proposed by Israel, which was once again turned down by Arafat:

Taba Map (Ha'aretz)

3. UN Resolution 181, the Partition Resolution, passed in November 1947, called for the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in the land which at that point was controlled by the British-run Palestine Mandate. All the Arab countries opposed the resolution, voted against it, and promised to go to war to prevent its implementation. Representing the Palestinians, the Arab Higher Committee also opposed the plan and threatened war, while the Jewish Agency, representing the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine Mandate, supported the plan.

The Arabs and the Palestinians were true to their word and did launch a war against the Jews of Palestine, violating both Resolution 181 and the UN Charter. Much to the surprise of the Arab side, the Jews were able to survive the initial onslaughts and eventually win the war.

The fundamental fact remains that had the Arabs and the Palestinians accepted the Partition Resolution and not violated the UN Charter by attacking Israel, there would be a 63-year-old Palestinian state today next to Israel, and there would not have been a single Palestinian refugee.

Just as today, it seems that even in 1948 the Arab side was more concerned with opposing and attacking the Jewish state than with creating a Palestinian state.
Besides the above statehood opportunities, there were other notable opportunities that were missed too, such as the 1978 Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, which provided for Palestinian autonomy in the territories of the West Bank and Gaza. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat begged the PLO and Yasir Arafat to accept what he had negotiated with Israel, and to engage in talks with Israel. President Carter also called on moderate Palestinians to come forward and join the Cairo conference. Unfortunately Arafat refused and did everything he could to undermine Sadat and the Camp David Accords, with PLO gunmen even murdering West Bank Palestinians who supported Sadat’s approach.

While the Palestinian people have much to be frustrated about, the object of their frustration should be not Israel, but their own leaders, who have thrown away opportunity after opportunity to establish the Palestinian state they claim to desire above all else.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Palestinian civilians are experiencing critical shortages of food, water, medical supplies and fuel.

You know who isn't experiencing shortages of any of those things?

Hamas.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Palestinian civilians are experiencing critical shortages of food, water, medical supplies and fuel.

You know who isn't experiencing shortages of any of those things?

Hamas.

More reason to take leash off of Israel and let them rid the world of this evil.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Palestinian civilians are experiencing critical shortages of food, water, medical supplies and fuel.

You know who isn't experiencing shortages of any of those things?

Hamas.

More reason to take leash off of Israel and let them rid the world of this evil.

I will not mourn the demise of Hamas but Israel risks serious, long-term damage if it fails to limit civilian casualties and be seen doing so.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Israel is as guilty of genocide as any other regime.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Palestinian civilians are experiencing critical shortages of food, water, medical supplies and fuel.

You know who isn't experiencing shortages of any of those things?

Hamas.

More reason to take leash off of Israel and let them rid the world of this evil.

I will not mourn the demise of Hamas but Israel risks serious, long-term damage if it fails to limit civilian casualties and be seen doing so.

That^^^is the bet that Hamas is making. They and much of the Shia community are going to help that along as much as they can with propaganda. And, propaganda is effective.

Thus, I am willing and fully supportive of giving the green-light to Israel and tell them to be only limited by “their” own conscience. I personally trust them. But, a percentage of the world hates them and that percentage is back in a growth spurt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Does Hamas ever listen to international law ?
Or for that matter Hizballah?
Just imagine Kentucky being constantly harassed, bombed shot at by rest of US?

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Does Hamas ever listen to international law ?
Or for that matter Hizballah?
Just imagine Kentucky being constantly harassed, bombed shot at by rest of US?

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Does Hamas ever listen to international law ?
Or for that matter Hizballah?
Just imagine Kentucky being constantly harassed, bombed shot at by rest of US?

Are the Israelis no better than Hamas?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
That^^^is true.

My point is that we hold Israel to a much more rigid standard than we would ever adhere to ourselves.

Let Mexico barrage DFW with rockets for years on end and see how fast we take Mexico and occupy it…WITH full public support.

quote:

The Holocaust does not make the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians okay. It was the German's running the concentration camps, not the Palestinians.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

The Holocaust does not make the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians okay. It was the German's running the concentration camps, not the Palestinians.

The camps were in Europe, but the Grand Mufti was all in for the extermination of the Jews from the ME.
They allied with Hitler and lost.
Too fucking bad.

The Palestinians don't want peace, they want to eliminate the Jews.

There's a simple premise about reaching a peace in the Middle East:

If Hamas and Hezbollah put down their arms, there will be peace in the Middle East.
If Israel puts down their arms, there will be the annihilation of Israel.

That's it.


https://www.jewishvirtuallibra...-and-the-f-uuml-hrer