It seems simple to me, now there are millions coming across the border with many towns and cities, even democrat sanctuary cities overwhelmed. A few years ago there were many many less border crossers, funny how that has worked.

As Mike points out, the US Southern Border was night vs. day better before Biden. Could the Republicans have done better in 2017 and 2018? Yes…Blame McConnel and Ryan!

Now please let the thread go back to discussing the fact that that “evil” must be fought not placated.

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

It will be interesting to see how Iran chooses to act.

Iran's foreign minister warns Israel from Beirut it could suffer 'a huge earthquake'

If^^^that doesn’t give Biden a reason to rescind the billions in Qatar…nothing will.

This has all the potential to escalate into a US Military involvement. I hope the US citizenry has the stomach for fighting evil if it does.

And it’s all on Biden

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
It will be interesting to see how Iran chooses to act.

Iran's foreign minister warns Israel from Beirut it could suffer 'a huge earthquake'

If^^^that doesn’t give Biden a reason to rescind the billions in Qatar…nothing will.

This has all the potential to escalate into a US Military involvement. I hope the US citizenry has the stomach for fighting evil if it does.

Look it up, In Qatar yesterday Blinken said that money is still there and going nowhere now.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
It will be interesting to see how Iran chooses to act.

Iran's foreign minister warns Israel from Beirut it could suffer 'a huge earthquake'

If^^^that doesn’t give Biden a reason to rescind the billions in Qatar…nothing will.

This has all the potential to escalate into a US Military involvement. I hope the US citizenry has the stomach for fighting evil if it does.

Look it up, In Qatar yesterday Blinken said that money is still there and going nowhere now.

Don

I heard and credit where due for the right move.

This however does not detract from how stupid it was to aid and abet an enemy (Iran) to begin with.

quote:

to aid and abet an enemy (Iran) to begin with

If you have your mindset on making Biden wrong, facts don't matter - hint "aid and abet" is not a fact. It's evidence of the mindset of one who claims it as truth. No one herein is more resistant to being distracted from a mindset than you, and you demonstrate it over and over with your choice of words.

Let me finish your OP premise:

When will we recognize that evil cannot be placated with evil ?

=================================================================

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...cbdad9a6c5281&ei=158

'Dehumanization, Lack of Empathy for Palestinians Is Alarming—and Dangerous'
Story by Khaled Elgindy • 22h

(excerpt - last paragraph of the article)

Compassion and empathy are not zero-sum commodities, however. It is possible to grieve and honor the hundreds of Israeli women, children and men killed or injured in last Saturday's brutal attack without simultaneously devaluing the lives, suffering and basic humanity of Palestinians. In fact, any effective response to the current crisis would demand that we do so.

==============================================

Any time, in any situation, when dehumanizing is a factor, bilaterally or unilaterally, evil is present foremost.

========================================

Evil begets evil:

WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWS, SO SHALL HE REAP (GALATIANS 6:7)

There are several Bible quotes on evil begets evil, but here's what it means:

"What is the meaning of evil begets evil?
If you indulge in wrong behavior or negative tendencies, the results will continue to be of a pathological and depraving kind."

Parallel Verses
KJV: And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 9:3

WEB: They bend their tongue, [as it were] their bow, for falsehood; and they are grown strong in the land, but not for truth: for they proceed from evil to evil, and they don't know me, says Yahweh.

(Yahweh was an ancient Levantine deity, and national god of the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah.[3] Though no consensus exists regarding the deity's origins,[4] scholars generally contend that Yahweh emerged as a "divine warrior" associated first with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman,[5] and later with Canaan. The origins of his worship reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age, if not somewhat earlier.[6])

================================================

The secular version is: One should be very careful in what he wishes for, and consider the moral implications; basis and outcome.

In the above post I'm talking about the general principles of evil - its MO. But in no way should it be interpreted as support for Hamas or any extremists.

When I think of Palestinian civilians and Hamas, they are not the same thing, IMO.

Here's something:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...bd3b9d2bae4d43&ei=41

What Israeli Victory Would Look Like
Opinion by Elliot Kaufman • 4h

WSJ

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...eb97ed45395327&ei=37

As war grows, those who want peace for Israelis and Palestinians face harrowing test
Story by Terry Collins, USA TODAY • 7h

'Violence isn't the alternative'

For Ourian, this past week has been full of "unimaginable sadness" and uncertainty as the battle rages along the Gaza Strip.

She said despite their collective grief, the nonprofit's staff organized a joint Zoom meeting between its Palestinian and Israeli members just a day after the attacks began.

The meeting, Ourian said, went "back to the basic essence" of why the organization was formed.

"Just listening to the other side, bearing witness to the pain of what each other is going through," Ourian said. "Having these joint meetings through such atrocities, that ‘enemies’ can come together in a room, their experiences, how they are feeling and recommit to the values of the organization."

Ourian said there were some tense and difficult moments, especially when the subject of violence arose.

"The sad and profound truth is there is no military solution to this conflict," Ourian said. "We must center our humanity first. We must show love for each other and our commitment to a better future, a joint better future with freedom and dignity for all."

Ourian said while her group remains committed, there is unfortunately "a lot of fear" as they know what's likely to come next, more bereaved families on both sides.

"Everyone feels beyond frustrated with this sense of great, great loss," Ourian said. "We know deep down inside that violence isn't the alternative."

Lane, I'm afraid you've frittered away your credibility on what is evil.

By applying the word to Democrats, you've diluted the word, gutted its meaning, and stripped it of its impact. Democrats aren't evil; they simply disagree with you on policy issues.

In the face of true evil, I suggest you reconsider your domestic political view of the opposition party.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

to aid and abet an enemy (Iran) to begin with

If you have your mindset on making Biden wrong, facts don't matter - hint "aid and abet" is not a fact. It's evidence of the mindset of one who claims it as truth. No one herein is more resistant to being distracted from a mindset than you, and you demonstrate it over and over with your choice of words.

Allowing Iran access to billions of dollars is aiding and abetting. If you think otherwise…you’re just dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Lane, I'm afraid you've frittered away your credibility on what is evil.

By applying the word to Democrats, you've diluted the word, gutted its meaning, and stripped it of its impact. Democrats aren't evil; they simply disagree with you on policy issues.

In the face of true evil, I suggest you reconsider your domestic political view of the opposition party.

Have you not noticed that most qualitative properties exist with a quantitative scale?

IE when you turn your oven on…it ranges in temperature from 170°F to 500°F.

From 250 up…if you put in a metal pan, let it normalize to the temp, and reach in and grab it barehanded…it will burn you. You will likely say: “Damn that was hot!”

Thus, hot-to-the-touch has a vast range of temperature…yet still all judged as ‘hot’ in commonality of perception.

Like most qualitative properties…evil has a quantitative scale — from barely tolerable to abhorrent. But, in the end…evil is still evil.

ME,
This is for you.

https://x.com/bennyjohnson/sta...583303306379327?s=46

So, we all know about indoctrination with some mutual reference points.

The consequences sometimes are clear, especially when looking from the outside in.

Do these kids know they are indoctrinated? They think they "know" the truth.

Your video is an example of a mutual reference point, where we both agree we are seeing the consequences of indoctrination of the young. And we both know that it usually sticks for a lifetime. In the case of these kids, the lifetime may be cut short.

So, thanks for that video.

Now, here's one for you. It pertains to adults mostly, but they have to be of the frame of mind to be vulnerable, which started when they were young. It doesn't happen like this suddenly. It's a long time coming.

https://youtu.be/7hQvBIyOC6Y?si=vLvPdcq_T7cPkQvO

Make America Great Again - The Twilight Zone

Read the comments below the video.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He%27s_Alive

"He's Alive," which aired on January 24, 1963 as season 4, episode 4 of The Twilight Zone, centers on an American named Peter Vollmer (Dennis Hopper).

Rod Sterling's opening monologue:

https://youtu.be/AHTJPK55dLQ?si=gFzt6H2yUfLDmf4I&t=50

"Portrait of a bush-league Führer named Peter Vollmer, a sparse little man who feeds off his self-delusions and finds himself perpetually hungry for want of greatness in his diet. And like some goose-stepping predecessors he searches for something to explain his hunger, and to rationalize why a world passes him by without saluting. That something he looks for and finds is in a sewer. In his own twisted and distorted lexicon he calls it faith, strength, truth. But in just a moment Peter Vollmer will ply his trade on another kind of corner, a strange intersection in a shadowland called the Twilight Zone."

Rod Sterling's closing monologue from "He's Alive":

https://youtu.be/hD3MB0NX47c?si=AnCIWYypCf2NH9na

"Where will he go next, this phantom from another time, this resurrected ghost of a previous nightmare – Chicago? Los Angeles? Miami, Florida? Vincennes, Indiana? Syracuse, New York? Anyplace, everyplace, where there's hate, where there's prejudice, where there's bigotry. He's alive. He's alive so long as these evils exist. Remember that when he comes to your town. Remember it when you hear his voice speaking out through others. Remember it when you hear a name called, a minority attacked, any blind, unreasoning assault on a people or any human being. He's alive because through these things we keep him alive."

More explicit:

https://youtu.be/2jJcG4M1uGY?si=qyQ_8Ed_12Ya2W3I

I see now: There’s different degrees of evil. A whole lot evil, kinda of evil and just a little itsy-burst evil.

Or this newly minted definition of evil, just a method allowing you to crawfish out from the ridiculousness of calling all Democrats evil?

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
I see now: There’s different degrees of evil. A whole lot evil, kinda of evil and just a little itsy-burst evil.

Or this newly minted definition of evil, just a method allowing you to crawfish out from the ridiculousness of calling all Democrats evil?

No crawfishing on my part. The Democratic National platform is evil. Anyone who knowingly and wantonly facilitates it…is as well.

The bottom line is that Palestinians are NEVER going to live at peace in Israel. Keeping Israel from clearing its vicinity of those who hate them and want to kill them…is only going to create more agony and suffering in the future.

I vote for letting them get it over with.

No crawfishing on my part. The Democratic National platform is evil. Anyone who knowingly and wantonly facilitates it…is as well.[/QUOTE]

I will give this thumbs up

quote:

Democratic National platform

Well, at least the democrats have a party platform, unlike the republicans who just say, "whatever Trump wants".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0....html?smid=url-share

What the Democratic Party Platform Actually Says
It’s a largely symbolic document that broadly outlines the party’s agenda. It doesn’t make everyone happy.

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/18/...platform-controversy

The Democratic platform, explained
What’s in the platform, what’s controversial about it, and what it all means.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0....html?smid=url-share

The G.O.P. Delivers Its 2020 Platform. It’s From 2016. The Republican National Committee dispensed with producing a new platform, instead renewing what delegates enacted in 2016 and offering wholehearted support for President Trump

https://www.vox.com/2020/8/24/...n-platform-2020-2016

Why Republicans didn’t write a platform for their convention this year
The party’s true priority is supporting Donald Trump.

Here's an article from a self-proclaimed liberal, who quotes a Republican. Unfortunately, Lincoln was killed by hate before he could make the kind of peace he envisioned, and succeeded by man not of the same view, which prolonged the national and individual pain, which we still feel today.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...bc54335accbf76&ei=79

Robert B. Reich: The corrosiveness of hate

(excerpt of the quote and the author's closing paragraphs)

I’m often reminded of Abraham Lincoln’s words in his Second Inaugural Address, on March 4, 1865 — when the end of the deadly Civil War was in sight, when South and North were brimming with hate of each other, and when many on the Union side were eager to punish the rebels. But Lincoln understood his task:

“With malice toward none with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation’ s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan — to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.”

Of course Hamas militants must be held responsible. So must Putin. So must Trump. So must those who are now threatening Muslim Americans and Jewish Americans, as must everyone who is blinded by hate.

In holding them responsible, though, we must make every effort not to fuel even more hate.

=================================================

There may be something there to agree with.

Today I was listening to the head of the medical examiners doing the necropsy examinations of the Hamas raid victims.

He told many horrific details. This one stood out as the worst of the worst.

Two children were burned alive in a cage together. He told how they were facing each other and holding each other so tightly in fear that their charred remains were welded together and difficult to separate.

He indicated things from the necropsy indicated they stayed alive well into the burning.

These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice.

I have no issue and agree Israel has an obligation to destroy Hamas.

However, I believe these types can be crippled, but they will come back eventually. No one can kill everyone. There is always a new crop until Islam recons with its fundamentalist elements that use the Religion to teach and advance the death of Israel as a state, Jews and individuals, Americans, and the West.

Like weeds or feral pigs (there is an analogy for Islamic vailed murders) kill them down, and be prepared to do it again. I do not see Israel being able to absorb Gaza in anything like a foreseeable future wo insurrection and escalation from Islamic states.

The sad part is the ones preaching and at the top do not believe the religious rationale. They just use for power and sell the desired outcome bring death to those they dislike, disagree with.

Israel has to to military go into Gaza. However, this is going to be 19th century tumor removal surgery and not wart surgery. The outcome is not within sight.

I do not see ME post as off topic. He is warning that when you become what you seek to destroy, you create the elements that will come to destroy you. Break Hamas, but the problem is not Muslims. The problem is those who use Islam for this type of violence. Kill all of those, leave, and expect to one day have to do it again.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I don't think so.

I just watched the first part of 'The American Buffalo' by Ken Burns on PBS.

Genocide - not only of the buffalo but indigenous people. In human history that was probably the worst of many, before and after.

We can't stop, nor apparently stop others.

Is it really true that people like Robert Reich, a liberal and probably Jewish, are dreamers not in touch with the reality of human nature? And people like Lane are?

Given the evidence, it seems that Lane may be right, and Dreams are just that.

Situations like Israel vs Hamas and Russia vs Ukraine are disorientating to Dreamers.

It's a vicious circle. I "listen" to Lane and others such as the media and people who think like him and see the examples of atrocities, and cringe. I don't know how to reconcile it all. I do know that violence begets violence, hate begets hate. So the remedy in question - to break the begetting cycle, is it through war or love and are they exclusive? Are we doomed to this spiral?

Yet, there are too many examples of what happens when the ties, morals, that constrain our behavior are cut loose. Therein is no moral high ground, only zero-sum. Is zero-sum the only reality that humanity can muster?

I quite the vicious circle, if only within myself, by going back to a few saying on the topic by people who I figure had a handle on reality during their time and place.

In the Gospel of Matthew chapter 5, an alternative for "an eye for an eye" is given by Jesus:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

— Jesus Christ, English Standard Version (Matthew 5:38–42)
In the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke chapter 6, as part of his command to "love your enemies", Jesus says:

But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

— Jesus Christ, English Standard Version (Luke 6:27–31)

Eckhart Tolle's interpretation:
Eckhart Tolle interprets many teachings of Jesus Christ as speaking of an experience of mindfulness. In his book, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment he wrote that "This is the miracle of surrender. You may have heard the phrase "turn the other cheek," which a great teacher of enlightenment used 2,000 years ago. He was attempting to convey symbolically the secret of nonresistance and nonreaction. In this statement, as in all his others, he was concerned only with your inner reality, not with the outer conduct of your life."

"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a proverb in the form of a parallel phrase, derived from the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 26, 26:52): "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr. (1967). Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?. p. 67.

In 1377, Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun identified a cycle of violence in which successive dynasties take control of a state and establish asabiyyah or social cohesion, enabling them to expand to the limit. Excess 'pomp' causes the dynasty then to stagnate, become sedentary and collapse, giving way to conquest by a new, more ruthless dynasty. This cycle plays out over the course of three generations. [Ibn Khaldun, The Muqadimmah, Routledge, 1978]

The cycle of violence between nations will continue indefinitely because the great powers fear each other, thus compete for power and dominance, in the belief that this will ensure safety. [John Mearsheimer, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics, WW Norton, 2003, Preface]

'Cycle of violence' is also used more generally to describe any long-term factional dispute within a nation in which tit for tat acts of aggression occur frequently, as for example in Argentina in the 1970s, [Ervin Staub, The Roots of Evil, Cambridge UP, 1989, p281] in Lebanon and Israel.[Ronnie Miller, From Lebanon to Intifada, University Press of America, 1991, p104]

Cumulative extremism is a form of political extremism that occurs when one form of political extremism mobilises against another form of political extremism, which was coined by British scholar Roger Eatwell. Eatwell defines cumulative extremism as: 'the way in which one form of extremism can feed off and magnify other forms'. Dr Mohammed Ilyas defines cumulative extremism as 'a process through which different forms of ‘extremism’ interact and can potentially produce a spiral of violence'. The academic Matthew Goodwin gives the example of far-right political organisations mobilising in response to the perceived threat of Islamic extremism.

OK ME…I concede…you have made some valid points.

To continue your line of thought…I ask: “Why do you carry a handgun?”

quote:

I do not see Israel being able to absorb Gaza in anything like a foreseeable future wo insurrection and escalation from Islamic states.

They could if we had their backs.

Why kick the can down the road?

I vote to get it done.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
OK ME…I concede…you have made some valid points.

To continue your line of thought…I ask: “Why do you carry a handgun?”

I can see your points too.

I carry a handgun just in case I need it, and because I can - but not to take revenge or vigilante actions, certainly not to target race, or those who merely disagree with me. I can walk away with pride, if I can walk - or run.

I agree with you - in the fight between Hamas et-al and Israel we should take sides, as in the case of all evil. Though, evil should be carefully identified and deliberately avoid letting it determine the reaction with reciprocal evil.

Those examples of atrocities you posted, and many others, are evil, but I don't think they represent an entire population. I could be wrong. Forcibly removing an entire neighboring population could be a (temporary) solution to an intractable problem.

They did it with the American Indian tribes, put them in reservations, then broke treaties, killed more of them, for many years, and the animosity is still there, and the evil involved will never be erased. But it did resolve the wars.

In the case of the Islamic nations, that's not possible. That's why I think reciprocal evil/evil is very bad.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

I do not see Israel being able to absorb Gaza in anything like a foreseeable future wo insurrection and escalation from Islamic states.

They could if we had their backs.

Why kick the can down the road?

I vote to get it done.

I have a question for you.

How does the idea of the Rapture, the second coming, and all the associated beliefs, play into this specific aspect of your worldview?

Answer carefully, because my question is a trap. I'll not be devious about it and tell you up front.

It's an end justifies the means trap - reciprocal evil as a means to an end trap.

So???? What's your answer?

Lane, you ask, “Why kick the cab down the road?”

Interestingly, you had the same approach when Covid was raging 3 or 4 years ago. Why wait for vaccinations? Pull the mask off and let’s get back to work. The weak will die and the rest will get herd immunity.

You seem to have so little regard for human life and the pain and suffering caused to families of the deceased.

The only time something like concern for life has been shown is when you want to prevent a woman who lives hundreds of miles from you and who you don’t know or ever will know, from having an abortion.

Seems strange when you are so cavalier about other peoples’ lives, that you would show empathy over these unborn babies.

Maybe it has nothing to do with empathy. You think that it might just be about having power and control, eh?

Oh Lord, now we’ve wondered so far afield we’re debating Covid and it’s response…

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Today I was listening to the head of the medical examiners doing the necropsy examinations of the Hamas raid victims.

He told many horrific details. This one stood out as the worst of the worst.

Two children were burned alive in a cage together. He told how they were facing each other and holding each other so tightly in fear that their charred remains were welded together and difficult to separate.

He indicated things from the necropsy indicated they stayed alive well into the burning.

These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice.

Just one of many reports on the sheer brutality of these sub humans.

And many of the victims and hostages are/were Americans.

How these morons in the US can march in support of murderers in Gaza is beyond me.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Today I was listening to the head of the medical examiners doing the necropsy examinations of the Hamas raid victims.

He told many horrific details. This one stood out as the worst of the worst.

Two children were burned alive in a cage together. He told how they were facing each other and holding each other so tightly in fear that their charred remains were welded together and difficult to separate.

He indicated things from the necropsy indicated they stayed alive well into the burning.

These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice.

Just one of many reports on the sheer brutality of these sub humans.

And many of the victims and hostages are/were Americans.

How these morons in the US can march in support of murderers in Gaza is beyond me.

Don

It's too easy for me to agree with both of you, because the murders, etc. are gruesome and beyond evil.

I'll take some quotes from your posts for discussion:

"These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice." What "people"? The murderers or the whole population?

"Just one of many reports on the sheer brutality of these sub humans." That's clearly dehumanizing. Again, are you referring to the murderers or the whole population?

"And many of the victims and hostages are/were Americans." It's true. It's reported many times in the news.

"How these morons in the US can march in support of murderers in Gaza is beyond me." Beyond me too. But I ask - when will the dehumanizing and "These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice" apply to "these morons" as well, or maybe it already applies. It's "beyond me" too - the Russian population supporting Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Are they deemed evil and killing them all justified? Where is the line and who decides?


=========================================================================

I don't want to get too far off into the deep end with this, presuming I'm not already. I have mentioned the algorithm, which is related to AI - the feedback on the newsfeed being the example I'm specifically talking about. There may be other examples too.

But anyway, Algo popped up this article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/heal...443653d283d0ae&ei=30

Stanford scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don't have free will
Story by Corinne Purtill • 4h

====================================

I post this link as an example of how ridiculously far out some liberal thinkers (?) can get, IMO.

But it's something to think about, and I do believe it relates to this thread per indoctrination, which is a common human condition .

I have always believed that we have (limited ?) free will to make choices, and some forfeit that, by choice.

It's a long read, but one can get the gest of it in the first few paragraphs.

I'll post some excerpts and the argument with it in case you don't want to read that far in:

Sapolsky was raised in an Orthodox Jewish household in Brooklyn, the son of immigrants from the former Soviet Union.

religion shaped life at home.

That all changed on a single night in his early teens, he says. While grappling with questions of faith and identity, he was struck by an epiphany that kept him awake until dawn and reshaped his future: God is not real, there is no free will, and we primates are pretty much on our own.

“That was kind of a big day,” he said with a chuckle, “and it's been tumultuous since then.”

Skeptics could seize on this to rebut his arguments: If we aren’t free to choose our actions or beliefs, how does a boy from a deeply religious conservative home become a self-professed liberal atheist?

Change is always possible, he argues, but it comes from external stimuli.

For fellow adherents of determinism — the belief that it’s impossible for a person in any situation to have acted differently than they did — Sapolsky’s scientific defense of the cause is welcome.

“Who we are and what we do is ultimately the result of factors beyond our control and because of this we are never morally responsible for our actions in the sense that would make us truly deserving of praise and blame, punishment and reward,” said Gregg Caruso, a philosopher at SUNY Corning who read early drafts of the book. “I am in agreement with Sapolsky that life without belief in free will is not only possible but preferable.”

Theirs is very much a minority viewpoint.

Sapolsky is “a wonderful explainer of complex phenomena,” said Peter U. Tse, a Dartmouth neuroscientist and author of the 2013 book “The Neural Basis of Free Will.” “However, a person can be both brilliant and utterly wrong.”

What’s more, he said, it’s harmful to do so.

“Those who push the idea that we are nothing but deterministic biochemical puppets are responsible for enhancing psychological suffering and hopelessness in this world,” Tse said.

Even those who believe biology limits our choices are wary of how openly we should embrace that.

Saul Smilansky, a philosopher at the University of Haifa in Israel and author of the book “Free Will and Illusion,” rejects the idea that we can will ourselves to transcend all genetic and environmental constraints. But if we want to live in a just society, we have to believe that we can.

“Losing all belief in free will and moral responsibility would likely be catastrophic," he said, and encouraging people to do so is "dangerous, even irresponsible.”

A widely cited 2008 study found that people who read passages dismissing the idea of free will were more likely to cheat on a subsequent test. Other studies have found that people who feel less control over their actions care less about making mistakes in their work, and that disbelief in free will leads to more aggression and less helpfulness.

Sapolsky discusses such concerns in his book, ultimately concluding that the effects seen in such experiments are too small and their lack of reproducibility too great to support the idea that civilization will crumble if we think we can’t control our fates.

The more compelling critique, he says, is eloquently articulated in the short story “What’s Expected of Us,” by speculative fiction writer Ted Chiang. The narrator describes a new technology that convinces users their choices are predetermined, a discovery that saps them of their will to live.

"It's essential that you behave as if your decisions matter," the narrator warns, "even though you know that they don't."

The greatest risk of abandoning free will, Sapolsky concedes, isn’t that we’ll want to do bad things. It’s that, without a sense of personal agency, we won’t want to do anything.

“It may be dangerous to tell people that they don't have free will,” Sapolsky said. “The vast majority of the time, I really think it's a hell of a lot more humane.”

Sapolsky knows he won't persuade most of his readers. It's hard to convince people who have been harmed that perpetrators deserve less blame because of their history of poverty. It's even harder to convince the well-off that their accomplishments deserve less praise because of their history of privilege.

“If you have time to be bummed out by that, you're one of the lucky ones,” he said.

His true hope, he says, is to increase compassion. Maybe if people understand how thoroughly an early history of trauma can rewire a brain, they'll stop lusting for harsh punishments. Maybe if someone realizes they have a brain condition like depression or ADHD, they'll stop hating themselves for struggling with tasks that seem easier for others.

Just as previous generations thought seizures were brought on by witchcraft, some of our current beliefs about personal responsibility may eventually be undone by scientific discovery.

We are machines, Sapolsky argues, exceptional in our ability to perceive our own experiences and feel emotions about them. It is pointless to hate a machine for its failures.

There is only one last thread he can’t resolve.

“It is logically indefensible, ludicrous, meaningless to believe that something ‘good’ can happen to a machine,” he writes. “Nonetheless, I am certain that it is good if people feel less pain and more happiness.”

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Today I was listening to the head of the medical examiners doing the necropsy examinations of the Hamas raid victims.

He told many horrific details. This one stood out as the worst of the worst.

Two children were burned alive in a cage together. He told how they were facing each other and holding each other so tightly in fear that their charred remains were welded together and difficult to separate.

He indicated things from the necropsy indicated they stayed alive well into the burning.

These people are the highest degree of evil. Nothing short of killing them all is justice.

Just one of many reports on the sheer brutality of these sub humans.

And many of the victims and hostages are/were Americans.

How these morons in the US can march in support of murderers in Gaza is beyond me.

Don

well said

quote:

Interestingly, you had the same approach when Covid was raging 3 or 4 years ago. Why wait for vaccinations? Pull the mask off and let’s get back to work. The weak will die and the rest will get herd immunity.

Because I was smart enough and educated enough to know the interventions proposed would do no good and cause great secondary harm. I was proven correct.

Bullshit. Protective measures saved lives. Starts dealing in facts.

From Politico;

“States that imposed more restrictions such as stay-at-home orders and mask requirements did experience lower rates of death and hospitalizations. But they also tended to have worse economic and educational outcomes.“

The hospitalization and death rate numbers were statistically insignificant across the states.

CA and Texas were a good comparison.

Every quality study done found the intervention ineffective.

Schro you are fucking stupid. Numerous studies have proven that masks made no difference, and no I am not doing your work. Research Research find out the truth

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
Schro you are fucking stupid. Numerous studies have proven that masks made no difference, and no I am not doing your work. Research Research find out the truth

I'm so old that I can remember when it was standard practice in human discourse to present evidence to support unusual claims in order to be taken seriously, whether claiming that something did or didn't have a medical effect or that an election was somehow fraudulent.

That was before the rise of trumpism, the notion that anybody can claim anything and it's somehow incumbent upon everybody else to prove it's bullshit.

Literally and figuratively the best way to know something is pure bullshit is knowing where it came from.