quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:

Take jeffeo. Its rather irresponible for a moderator to pile on a guy who does not even know. Why is he doing it? You got to ask these questions. A responsible mod would just say, "I don't buy that" and leave it at that.

awww... you could at least spell my name correctly, before giving me your "instruction"

you might READ what i wrote, where i said.

quote:

i have no doubt

Show me where i piled on, sir?

I said, flatly, that it is highly LIKELY he can do what he claims .. and equally likely that it can't be repeated in the "Rest of the world"

In fact, if you READ what is written, as written, I actually presented teh middle of the road (that's sometimes called MODERATE) approach that doesn't call either man a liar or fool.

By your statement, you wuold prefer i call one a liar over the other, rather than explaining what might be the unwritten other side of the story. Even when the name calling begins .. i read the thread over on the other site, as well. RR does have a bit of a mouth on him, and makes it personal, both there and here. Tell me I am wrong, and back it up.

unless, of course, you think a high risk of unnecessary suffering of an animal is GOOD behavoir? As that is the only point that I firmly stated MY ethics on the matter.

its fine if you dont' like me, my style, or my posts. as my signature says, opinions vary

ya'll have a nice day.

RR

Have you seen one of Kirby Allen's guns shoot into 1.5" at 1,000 yards?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:

Take jeffeo. Its rather irresponible for a moderator to pile on a guy who does not even know. Why is he doing it? You got to ask these questions. A responsible mod would just say, "I don't buy that" and leave it at that.

awww... you could at least spell my name correctly, before giving me your "instruction"

you might READ what i wrote, where i said.

quote:

i have no doubt

Show me where i piled on, sir?

I said, flatly, that it is highly LIKELY he can do what he claims .. and equally likely that it can't be repeated in the "Rest of the world"

In fact, if you READ what is written, as written, I actually presented teh middle of the road (that's sometimes called MODERATE) approach that doesn't call either man a liar or fool.

By your statement, you wuold prefer i call one a liar over the other, rather than explaining what might be the unwritten other side of the story. Even when the name calling begins .. i read the thread over on the other site, as well. RR does have a bit of a mouth on him, and makes it personal, both there and here. Tell me I am wrong, and back it up.

unless, of course, you think a high risk of unnecessary suffering of an animal is GOOD behavoir? As that is the only point that I firmly stated MY ethics on the matter.

its fine if you dont' like me, my style, or my posts. as my signature says, opinions vary

ya'll have a nice day.

Always have a good day.

Ethics is a funny thing. I prefer to hunt deer with an osage bow I made myself, with arrows I made myself. Some call it unethical and I should opt to use a compound bow that shoots over 300fps. Go figure. Why? Because they can't get the job done the way I do. In fact, most don't get as many deer as I do. But they still feel its unethical.

Its really that simple. I would bet in RR's holler he wounds much less animals than the average hunter. Probably even an above average hunter.

Fact is, you don't know him, or his ability. Thats fact. And I sorta do, but have yet to witness one of his shots. If you saw RR wound animals and lose em, then I could understand where you are coming from. But only thing your basing your comments on is your own ability.

I am not exactly sure why, but hunters always love to bash one another. He shoots too far, he uses unethical equipment, he uses a 22hornet on deer, its rampant all over net forums.

I am not big on competitions either. I have family, kids, wife, motorcycles, campers, 4-wheelers, wood shop, bows to build, shooting to do. Also, I would say, competitions are far and few between in this area within a couple hours drive. But all the sudden all these expect RR to drive 8 hours so he can get a ribbon. I know where he lives, and its rather remote.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
BC, It's long been my experience that those who brag about their own accomplishments from the safety of their long-range keyboard are almost NEVER willing to show their 'accomplishment' or try to duplicate it in public.

What you got to see, is a guy from a different forum drug him into this here. I never saw him come here and say, "I can do this or this" out of the blue. A man who has never met him, or shot with him called him a liar.

See I take a different approach. I don't like those who come on and show thier accomplishments. Its been my experience, that these people are insecure.

quote:

I've offered, several times to several braggarts on several forums, to bet a sum I really couldn't afford against their ability to duplicate their 'accomplishment'.

So what does that get you in life? I mean, I guess you can sit at home behind the computer and jump up and down and say "I win". I guess. I bet you, if you flew up to Charleston, WV airport, drove 4 hours into the mountains, and met RR, he would go out shooting with you. If it means that much to you. But you really expect a total stranger to go out and win a ribbon to prove something to you??? Man, that makes no sense.

quote:

So far no takers, not a single one in over 10 years since I made the offer the first time.

I would say you haven't unless they live close to you. I myself don't know why any sane person would go thru hundreds of dollars to prove something to a faceless poster on accuratereloading. This is just commone sense stuff here.

quote:

My Daddy told me long, long ago that all braggarts are punks at heart and also, about 99% of the time, liars as well. IMO he was right.

Yes, I for one don't believe him and think he's a troll. So far all his comments have been DEstructive, not CONstructive.

Again, your forgetting someone from another forum called him a liar. I only see him here defending himself. Thats what I see. And here you come from nowhere calling him a liar also. For no reason. Now, thats a troll.

quote:

What have YOU and RR done?

Didn't you hear? We came up with a new medicine for the sickle cell disease. Goodness gracious man, its a forum, not Saint Judes.

quote:

It's really pretty simple, if RR and this smith were REALLY that good, they'd have their names listed in the 'records' section of a national organization.

why? What will that do for you?

quote:

And RR would be offering to bet me $1000 that he could hit a grapefruit at 1000 yds. We could meet at Hawks Ridge, it's about halfway for both of us. You wanta hold the stakes?
Regards, Joe

Honestly, you have to smarter and better than this. Now, let me get this right. You expect RR, to take time to run hundreds of miles to prove something to a faceless poster on the internet. And just because? Now, I want you to consider that thought. Because I am convinced if you do, any sane person would be shaking thier head at the thought.

I mean, thats just crazy thinking. I would almost understand it if it was someone you knew and cared about. But a forum??

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I said, flatly, that it is highly LIKELY he can do what he claims .. and equally likely that it can't be repeated in the "Rest of the world"

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:

Fact is, you don't know him, or his ability. Thats fact. And I sorta do, but have yet to witness one of his shots. If you saw RR wound animals and lose em, then I could understand where you are coming from. But only thing your basing your comments on is your own ability.

even percentage-wise, he makes mistakes -- only "god" is perfect.

but RR is a big boy, and has proven capable of speaking for himself.

Why don't you let him do so?

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
RR

Have you seen one of Kirby Allen's guns shoot into 1.5" at 1,000 yards?

I really couldn't tell ya what the smallest 1k group I've saw, I've saw a .4 moa group shot by a guy from potomac maryland at 1400 yards.
RR

BC,
I have an Osage Orange bow myself. R Runner is not remote and is very close to a lot of competition. That is OK, but the real competitors know what is really possible with world class equip. R Runner may be a crackshot, but he doesn't need to insult our intelligence. Below is posted the top 100 1000 yd shooters and their groups, score and equip.
Seems I don't see his gunsmiths name on the list.
http://www.pa1000yard.com/resu...&topct=100&year=2010
BC, you are the only one to come to his rescue and you haven't seen him shoot.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i have no doubt that ridgerunner can make those shots, in his highly protected river bottom. hell, i bet you could take a savage, factory gun in 300 win, and in a couple days, be able to duplicate his feats, provided its about a 1/3 moa or even 1/2 moa gun.

This is why we won't see him at ranges, or competitions -- those conditions are far to variable. This is also why he has no experience in the arena, and won't leave his honey hole .. the "using my techniques and equipment" means his has so specialized for his single shooting instance, that isn't applicable anywhere else

wrong, I don't like to be arround arrogant assholes with a rifle in my hands

quote:

he doesn't, however boastfully it comes across, claim to hit DEER every week out there.... unless, of course, he's claiming to be, above all else, a poacher.

Shooting game at these ranges is UNETHICAL, as a hunter's first duty is to kill the animal as cleanly as possible. How long does a deer suffer if gut shot, and has to linger until you get down there an find it? don't give me any crap that you never wound animals, and that they all die, 100% of the time ... this means either you haven't shot enough game to matter, or you don't check that you haven't wounded an animal. EVERYONE misses, which is why it is the highst ethic of a hunter to dispatch the game cleanly. If it was easy, it wouldn't be first.

This says what you know about long range hunting, poorly hit deer when shot at long range do not bolt, like they do when the muzzleblast hits them in the face from 50 yards, they walk a few step and bed up, I've taken close to 50 from ranges of 400 to 1350 yards and none have not been recovered

quote:

Oh, ,and your honey hole of a unique shooting lab does not, in any way shape or form, support claims of a builder being able to delivery 100% of his rifles that shoot less than .3MOA, every time.

this one I'll give ya a partial, however if you would have read all my posts which only have been dragged through the mud the parts you folks could twist around and make them seem false, you would have read that I have talked with at least 30 owners of APS rifles and they all have simular results to mine
RR

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
Are you sure, your not the troll here? I mean, you only been here a short time and only come on to agg folks on and put them down.

Isn't this the definition of a troll? I am just asking.

BC, It's long been my experience that those who brag about their own accomplishments from the safety of their long-range keyboard are almost NEVER willing to show their 'accomplishment' or try to duplicate it in public.

I've offered, several times to several braggarts on several forums, to bet a sum I really couldn't afford against their ability to duplicate their 'accomplishment'.

So far no takers, not a single one in over 10 years since I made the offer the first time.

Now, what does that sound like to YOU?

My Daddy told me long, long ago that all braggarts are punks at heart and also, about 99% of the time, liars as well. IMO he was right.

Yes, I for one don't believe him and think he's a troll. So far all his comments have been DEstructive, not CONstructive.

If you had been paying attention you'd already know that I've been commenting CONstructively on this forum since I joined, offering help to anyone and even GIVING AWAY parts and components whenever I could.

You call this constructive, your a punk your a liar, without even knowing who, what, where when how? sound to me like a spoiled kid!

quote:

What have YOU and RR done?

I'll tell ya what I done, I work 6 days a week and shoot on sundays if time allows, every bullet I've ever sent downrange I've paid for, some weeks theres not many to send because on top of this I finance a unique situation, being a self employed father of a diabetic child runs me about 21 dollars a day, so wonder why I won't take a day off work to go prove something to ranting keyboard lunatic

quote:

And when a Moderator sees BS being posted, IMO he can comment all he wants to on either side. He ain't required to show impartiality, he's required to maintain a relatively civilised repartee exchange. IOW keep the profanity, obscenity and vulgarity down to a dull roar.

It's really pretty simple, if RR and this smith were REALLY that good, they'd have their names listed in the 'records' section of a national organization.

And RR would be offering to bet me $1000 that he could hit a grapefruit at 1000 yds. We could meet at Hawks Ridge, it's about halfway for both of us. You wanta hold the stakes?
Regards, Joe

Joe, this isn't the BR forum, why is it that every word you guys mutter on this forum has to do with competition? gunsmithing wasn't invented only for a priviledged few ya know, I don't own a BR rifle, I shoot cause I enjoy it, not to prove to the rest of the gang on a forum that I'm somebody, I've never mentioned competing and never will, too many dickheads to put up with, and if I did compete, you can bet that 1000 dollars you wanna bet so badly that none of the pricks here would get my money, even if they built the best most accurate rifle in the world, I'd rather have a remington 770.
RR

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
BC,
I have an Osage Orange bow myself. R Runner is not remote and is very close to a lot of competition. That is OK, but the real competitors know what is really possible with world class equip. R Runner may be a crackshot, but he doesn't need to insult our intelligence. Below is posted the top 100 1000 yd shooters and their groups, score and equip.
Seems I don't see his gunsmiths name on the list.
http://www.pa1000yard.com/resu...&topct=100&year=2010
BC, you are the only one to come to his rescue and you haven't seen him shoot.
Butch

show me on this forum where its the benchrest forum? where it says comp. talk only?
you guys are just like the snot nosed arrogant guys in most sports, your so stuck on yourselves that you think your the only ones who can accomplish anything, well the fact is there's lots of guys who can shoot just as well if they had access to the same resources.
My guess would be, all you guys with something to sell, if you acted at your business, like you do on the net, would be sleepin on a park bench, tellin the rest of the wino's how good ya useta shoot, people don't pay for arrogance, so butch, mosey on back to br central and peddle a few machine rests, or something, act like ya do here and see how business goes, you'll sure never get any business or a recomendation from me.
RR

WOW!!!! GOSH I AM GLAD I READ ALL THIS!!!!!!
1. Those LR BR guys need hunting rifles.
2. I got a feeling Butch could shoot 400yds.
3. I don't think Butch will loose any sales.
4. Who is the arrogant prick?
5. My 500 yard groups are all 1 shot groups!

Gee Mr r Runner, I guess I got your goat! I'm building some stuff for one of the World Record Holders today. Guess I don't need you. I think you are posting on a gunsmithing forum. We might know about accuracy whether it is hunting or competition.
.04 MOA at 1400 yards, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole unless it was a one shot group.
Butch

quote:

.04 MOA at 1400 yards, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole unless it was a one shot group.
Butch

expected that, since it wasn't a stick you built, see why I don't go to ranges? anyways did make a mistake which I edited, it was .4 moa at 1400 yards
RR

I'm not a mathematician or ballistitian, but if I used the correct numbers and hit the right buttons on my calculator, .04 MOA @1400 yds equals a group measuring .560" center to center.

I used 1" per 100yds for the MOA of 14. I know the exact MOA figure is not exactly 1", but figured it would be close enough.


Corrections welcomed.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
BC,
I have an Osage Orange bow myself. R Runner is not remote and is very close to a lot of competition. That is OK, but the real competitors know what is really possible with world class equip. R Runner may be a crackshot, but he doesn't need to insult our intelligence. Below is posted the top 100 1000 yd shooters and their groups, score and equip.
Seems I don't see his gunsmiths name on the list.
http://www.pa1000yard.com/resu...&topct=100&year=2010
BC, you are the only one to come to his rescue and you haven't seen him shoot.
Butch

I agree, I haven't seen him shoot. I am just amazed how often folks throw out the "liar" word these days. Maybe its the net. Sitting safely behind a computer.

Back in the day, it was serious for someone just to call you a liar. Thats the reason in real life you don't see it more often. Sure, you got some idiot who will do it alot, but most of the time, no. Its just ashamed is all.

I myself, won't compete. I been there and tried it, but the arrogance is unreal. I came out thinking, these guys better take this seriously, because its all they got in life. Its not friendly. Makes it not fun. But again, I am no hot shot shooter either. Guess i value time spent with my family more than trying to get the approval of a bunch of guys. Call me crazy. I do this for gun. My pasttime.

Thats the reason I love the primitive archery. Very little egos. I have seen shots, that blow me away. Nobody takes score at a 3d shoot. The fiberglass longbow guys can get competitive and arrogant, but the primitive guys are very laid back. Everything is fun. the way it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I'm not a mathematician or ballistitian, but if I used the correct numbers and hit the right buttons on my calculator, .04 MOA @1400 yds equals a group measuring .560" center to center.

I used 1" per 100yds for the MOA of 14. I know the exact MOA figure is not exactly 1", but figured it would be close enough.


Corrections welcomed.

The size of the group isn't the amazing thing. What is amazing is that it was a hunging rifle, off a bipod, and the group was on a Deer!

Butch, just read your list of top 100, you know kevin kram? I got one of his rifles at the stockmakers now, ask him about Kirby, kevin is a member of LRH, surprised I didn't see Ray Romain there, I got one of his also, and I noticed no lambert on there.
RR

Mr r Runner,
I don't compete in long range shooting so you will not see my name. Kirby may be good, but I guess the goodguys don't know that. I know a lot of people, what does that prove? You haven't seen me say that I go to my sweet spot on my property and shoot even .5MOA at long range. My fun is hunting with my Grandsons, Brother, and friends. If I take a shot I get my deer. The campfire and my Buds are more important to me than a dead animal.
I feel bad for you and your diabetic son. I know all about juvenile diabetes, as my hunting, fishing, and BR shooting Grandson has a bad case of it. He has worked hard and looks like he is going to get a Division I football scholarship. Diabetes is something that you have to stay on top of, I can tell you some hair raising stories, but you probably can also.
Butch

I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you guys? You say it isn't worth it for a measley $1000, how about $2000? Or $5000? Seems like that would be enough to pay for a lotta treatments, no?

Or are you just like most of the other braggarts, so full of it that your eyes are brown?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you guys? You say it isn't worth it for a measley $1000, how about $2000? Or $5000? Seems like that would be enough to pay for a lotta treatments, no?

Or are you just like most of the other braggarts, so full of it that your eyes are brown?
Regards, Joe

what I know about this post, mr mouthpiece
if you had diabetes you damn sure wouldn't be grinning about it, if you had diabetes you would know there is a difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes, so there fore thats probably BS, and to top it off if you had diabetes you would know that you don't take "treatments" for it. You wanna shoot bring your sorry ass and your stick here we'll shoot, if your not comin shut-up, I'm not braggin, your the one being an ass, you think I'm full of it, c'mon or shut-up you got your choice.
who's the punk? I'd I knew you didn't have diabetes for a fact and just mouthin off about it as bait, I'd prolly show up, but it wouldn't be to shoot. you suck, your just a certified card carryin loser that shouldn't survive a range session! thats it I'm done with you bunch of worthless bastards, but 1 day jd steele, I'll cross your path, I have a 12 yo daughter that can't be a kid because of this disease and you make light of it, yours is comin, ya worthless POS
RR

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
RR

Have you seen one of Kirby Allen's guns shoot into 1.5" at 1,000 yards?

I really couldn't tell ya what the smallest 1k group I've saw, I've saw a .4 moa group shot by a guy from potomac maryland at 1400 yards.
RR

.4 MOA at 1400 yards is one thing but Kirby is saying that he can build every rifle to shoot .3 MOA at 500 yards.

I think that that is what everyone is objecting to.

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you guys? You say it isn't worth it for a measley $1000, how about $2000? Or $5000? Seems like that would be enough to pay for a lotta treatments, no?

Or are you just like most of the other braggarts, so full of it that your eyes are brown?
Regards, Joe

what I know about this post, mr mouthpiece
if you had diabetes you damn sure wouldn't be grinning about it, if you had diabetes you would know there is a difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes, so there fore thats probably BS, and to top it off if you had diabetes you would know that you don't take "treatments" for it. You wanna shoot bring your sorry ass and your stick here we'll shoot, if your not comin shut-up, I'm not braggin, your the one being an ass, you think I'm full of it, c'mon or shut-up you got your choice.
who's the punk? I'd I knew you didn't have diabetes for a fact and just mouthin off about it as bait, I'd prolly show up, but it wouldn't be to shoot. you suck, your just a certified card carryin loser that shouldn't survive a range session! thats it I'm done with you bunch of worthless bastards, but 1 day jd steele, I'll cross your path, I have a 12 yo daughter that can't be a kid because of this disease and you make light of it, yours is comin, ya worthless POS
RR

Hey, Bigcountry
when are you going to give the SAME lecture to RR that you attempted to give to JD, Butch, and I?

that whole " you don't know him" .."you can't call him a liar" .. "don't dispute his facts" lecture?

Come on, show that you are a man about it, and you actually stand for the ethics YOU presented as unfair to RR, as we all don't know him?

let's see that lecure, again, but aimed at the other guy?

oh, wait, you probably aren't up to the effort to give it your same best shot, do you? you are going to run up against RR with the same anger and conviction that you criticise others?

no, really, step right up, sir, and give us that FAIR and unbiased, even handed approach you asked for RR....

not going to happen? or just blow smoke that its "not the same", when the facts are that RR is being a prejorative jerk, attacking someone else's statements, calling them a liar, without knowing them.

let's see THAT, to prove your own moral and ethical high ground...

oh, and RR, you swears too much. Have some respect for YOURSELF,

but, really, big country.. you going to thrash RR for his nasty posts?

frankly, i doubt it.

what do you know about diabetes jeff? you and your boy toys have hammered me since I found this thread that I was baited here with, twisted everything I said totaly out of proportion, if I countered it was ignored, your no better than the goon platoon that you supposedly moderate, this whole forum is nothin but a circle jerk, but you can bet I will meet jd face to face his retirement will take a downside.
RR

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you guys? You say it isn't worth it for a measley $1000, how about $2000? Or $5000? Seems like that would be enough to pay for a lotta treatments, no?

Or are you just like most of the other braggarts, so full of it that your eyes are brown?
Regards, Joe

Joe, you really got to take a hard look at yourself. Look what you just wrote to a total stranger on the internet. I mean you are a grown man. Think about it.

Well Jeff, only thing I can say is "your bigger than this". Rise above it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you guys? You say it isn't worth it for a measley $1000, how about $2000? Or $5000? Seems like that would be enough to pay for a lotta treatments, no?

Or are you just like most of the other braggarts, so full of it that your eyes are brown?
Regards, Joe

what I know about this post, mr mouthpiece
if you had diabetes you damn sure wouldn't be grinning about it, if you had diabetes you would know there is a difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes, so there fore thats probably BS, and to top it off if you had diabetes you would know that you don't take "treatments" for it. You wanna shoot bring your sorry ass and your stick here we'll shoot, if your not comin shut-up, I'm not braggin, your the one being an ass, you think I'm full of it, c'mon or shut-up you got your choice.
who's the punk? I'd I knew you didn't have diabetes for a fact and just mouthin off about it as bait, I'd prolly show up, but it wouldn't be to shoot. you suck, your just a certified card carryin loser that shouldn't survive a range session! thats it I'm done with you bunch of worthless bastards, but 1 day jd steele, I'll cross your path, I have a 12 yo daughter that can't be a kid because of this disease and you make light of it, yours is comin, ya worthless POS
RR

Hey, Bigcountry
when are you going to give the SAME lecture to RR that you attempted to give to JD, Butch, and I?

that whole " you don't know him" .."you can't call him a liar" .. "don't dispute his facts" lecture?

Come on, show that you are a man about it, and you actually stand for the ethics YOU presented as unfair to RR, as we all don't know him?

let's see that lecure, again, but aimed at the other guy?

oh, wait, you probably aren't up to the effort to give it your same best shot, do you? you are going to run up against RR with the same anger and conviction that you criticise others?

no, really, step right up, sir, and give us that FAIR and unbiased, even handed approach you asked for RR....

not going to happen? or just blow smoke that its "not the same", when the facts are that RR is being a prejorative jerk, attacking someone else's statements, calling them a liar, without knowing them.

let's see THAT, to prove your own moral and ethical high ground...

oh, and RR, you swears too much. Have some respect for YOURSELF,

but, really, big country.. you going to thrash RR for his nasty posts?

frankly, i doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
Well Jeff, only thing I can say is "your bigger than this". Rise above it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

but, really, big country.. you going to thrash RR for his nasty posts?

frankly, i doubt it.

about what i expected ...

your lectures about ethical and proper behavoir .. nevermind, you made it too obivious to belabor

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)
Regards, Joe

Joe, you really got to take a hard look at yourself. Look what you just wrote to a total stranger on the internet. I mean you are a grown man. Think about it.

really? you just told me to suck it up, but come running to joe, making an honest effort to ask a man to match his MOUTH with his money?

fair wager .. and with a bit of spice to make it interesting... and in your NEXT post, you tell someone who is a total stranger to YOU to suck it up?

my my.. aint it funny when the chickens come home to roost?

first, RR, your attitude reeks over the internet. perhaps you aren't aware of that?

second, you have decided to engage me with insults, as a person .., and as big country stresses, in his ethics lectures, we are total strangers.. i guess that means you'd like to have a VERY direct conversation ... tell you what.. try not swearing or cursing or using profanity for a couple posts .. in fact, consider that a condition of LOSSING when you swear...

i see cal hunter spends ALOt of time redacting your swearing on another site... ever wonder why people are forced to clean up after you?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
what do you know about diabetes jeff?

none of your business. my families lives and health aren't other there to have some sick internet one upmanship .. anyone who cared about their families health wouldn't start a conversation comparing the realtive sickness of relatives.. only to try and find mutual ground would it even be discussed. we don't have this relationship

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
you and your boy toys

seriously? you play the gay inference card ? do grow up, and consider the timing/sequence .. and then READ what i wrote .. you might learn something

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

have hammered me since I found this thread

found? really? nice story .. i aint buying it, but nice story

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

that I was baited here with,

baited? well, which it it? found it or baited? these are different things

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

twisted everything I said totaly out of proportion,

you say this, or words to the effect, ALOT.. perhaps you aren't being clear in your communications, in that lots of folks, on at least 2 forums, don't buy your story at face value. extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary proof

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

if I countered it was ignored

i have no idea what you meant to say there

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

, your no better than the goon platoon

again, what are you trying to say?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

that you supposedly moderate,

so, by inference, you don't like how this site operates? I'll refund your yearly dues, if that makes you happier

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

this whole forum is nothin but a circle jerk,

thanks for contributing, you are certainly a critical part in this particular "circle jerk"

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
but you can bet I will meet jd face to face

i thought you didn't go to ranges, nor engaged in competitions? does your word change with your anger level?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
his retirement will take a downside.
RR

how's that? seriously, are you threatening another american over the internet, or accepting his wager?

Watch out, or big country will be coming along with his "internet jerk" speech .. its kind of interesting, really, but the 3rd verse is kind of tiring.

you do realize that your statement of

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner: you can bet I will meet jd face to face his retirement will take a downside

makes tons of no-sense when actually READ as written? i mean, what did you mean to say? i can't quite make out what you where going for there.. but odds on, you missed what you meant

let's see, you pissed off a libertratian, or 3, .. one of the nicest benchrest guys there is, and JD.. who even *I* haven't managed but the slightest disagreement with...

this THREAD is about claims of a gunsmith to produce 1/3 moa (actually far better) guns... not your shooting down a riverbottom ... YOU have decided to make this about yourself... and then complain when it IS about yourself.. on this, and another forum.. are you even shooting one of those superduper rifles?

you like to ride folks till they can't reply polietly.. and pretend you have won a discussion, when all you have done is make people realize they can't win such a contest with such an obvious master...

hey, possum, dig yourself out of the holler, and go meet JD half way...

i've got $250 bucks that says NEITHER of you can hit a grapefruit, first and ONLY shot, under JD's stipulated open range conditions.


i know, for a FACT, that i can't pick up, go 500 miles away, and hit a boxcar at 1000 yards with my hunting rifles... not with the first shot ... unlikely with the 5th shot .... perhaps the 10th ... and groups measured in FEET would impress me ... i am just a local yokel, that doesn't really care about 15# rifle in 300 whizbang..

i kind of prefer HUNTING, to shooting...

quote:

what do you know about diabetes jeff?

see? this is this forums problem, direct ?'s aimed at them ignored while he flames another member, and he thinks he's a mod, c'mon jeff where ya at, you got a beef with BC or are you a mod? the longer this takes the more your integrity wilts
RR

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

what do you know about diabetes jeff?

see? this is this forums problem, direct ?'s aimed at them ignored while he flames another member, and he thinks he's a mod, c'mon jeff where ya at, you got a beef with BC or are you a mod? the longer this takes the more your integrity wilts
RR

actually, i answered you, in detail and with thought, even though UTTERLY irrelevent to both the disccusion of 1.5" at 500 yards AND conversations with me .. i also won't answer questions about my ATM pin .. not relevent...

..my posit of you using illness as some sick one-up-manship turned out to be kind of accurate...

i guess that means the shoe is on the other foot, don't it? what, with integrity wilting and all ... oh, now you'll crawdfish on it.. saying it only applies to folks you disagree with, and never yourself, right? or will you just ignore your own character assualt, and pretend it didn't never happen?

oh, wait.. i forget, must guys like you can NEVER say they are wrong ... its always someone else's fault...

yay for you, jesus.. you are ALWAYS perfect

diabetes has nothing to do with BUILDING rifles that shoot 1.5 inches at 500 yards .. that's your specious tangent, and, frankly, i don't care for you using an illness as an arguementative tangent to try and win a point .. its sad, and pathetic ... and demeaning to the loved one with the condition.

I tell ya. This is fricking embarrassing. I used to come here all the time, but rarely anymore. Nice to see the gang mentality is alive and well. Even 24hr with the one-man gang, Big Stick, is more civil than this.

quote:

Originally posted by djpepper:
I tell ya. This is fricking embarrassing. I used to come here all the time, but rarely anymore. Nice to see the gang mentality is alive and well. Even 24hr with the one-man gang, Big Stick, is more civil than this.

And why are you (personally, I take it)embarrassed? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
first, RR, your attitude reeks over the internet. perhaps you aren't aware of that?

anyones attitude is a direct reflection of how he's treated by others in his immediate surroundings

quote:

second, you have decided to engage me with insults, as a person .., and as big country stresses, in his ethics lectures, we are total strangers.. i guess that means you'd like to have a VERY direct conversation ... tell you what.. try not swearing or cursing or using profanity for a couple posts .. in fact, consider that a condition of LOSSING when you swear...

then as a moderator call your dogs off

quote:

i see cal hunter spends ALOt of time redacting your swearing on another site... ever wonder why people are forced to clean up after you?

most of cal hunters cleaning up were the words idiot and loser

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
what do you know about diabetes jeff?

none of your business. my families lives and health aren't other there to have some sick internet one upmanship .. anyone who cared about their families health wouldn't start a conversation comparing the realtive sickness of relatives.. only to try and find mutual ground would it even be discussed. we don't have this relationship
[/quote]
and that has what to do with knoledge of a disease, did I ask if you or your family had it?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
you and your boy toys

seriously? you play the gay inference card ? do grow up, and consider the timing/sequence .. and then READ what i wrote .. you might learn something[/quote]
have you moderated the locals? nope just me and BC cause we don't stroke anyones ego

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

have hammered me since I found this thread

found? really? nice story .. i aint buying it, but nice story[/quote]
your boy vapo posted a link on HNI did he not?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

that I was baited here with,

baited? well, which it it? found it or baited? these are different things[/quote]
you see them as different, vapo posted the first few responses on what date? and I made the first post when? 5 days later?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

twisted everything I said totaly out of proportion,

you say this, or words to the effect, ALOT.. perhaps you aren't being clear in your communications, in that lots of folks, on at
least 2 forums, don't buy your story at face value. extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary proof[/quote]everyone is not formaly educated but I can assure you I'm far from stupid

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

if I countered it was ignored

then read the darned thread again, read butch's post's, "I bet you blah blah blah, I guess you said blah blah blah, how bout jd's your a punk blah blah blah, did you say anything there? i have no idea what you meant to say there

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

, your no better than the goon platoon

again, what are you trying to say?
think about it!

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

that you supposedly moderate,
[/QUOTE

quote:

]so, by inference, you don't like how this site operates? I'll refund your yearly dues, if that makes you happier

maybe a real mod would help

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

this whole forum is nothin but a circle jerk,

quote:

thanks for contributing, you are certainly a critical part in this particular "circle jerk"

but not as good at it as you and your boys

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
but you can bet I will meet jd face to face

quote:

i thought you didn't go to ranges, nor engaged in competitions? does your word change with your anger level?

I won't

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
his retirement will take a downside.
RR

quote:

how's that? seriously, are you threatening another american over the internet, or accepting his wager?

can you prove that?

Watch out, or big country will be coming along with his "internet jerk" speech .. its kind of interesting, really, but the 3rd verse is kind of tiring.

you do realize that your statement of

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner: you can bet I will meet jd face to face his retirement will take a downside

makes tons of no-sense when actually READ as written? i mean, what did you mean to say? i can't quite make out what you where going for there.. but odds on, you missed what you meant

let's see, you pissed off a libertratian, or 3, .. one of the nicest benchrest guys there is, and JD.. who even *I* haven't managed but the slightest disagreement with...

this THREAD is about claims of a gunsmith to produce 1/3 moa (actually far better) guns... not your shooting down a riverbottom ... YOU have decided to make this about yourself... and then complain when it IS about yourself.. on this, and another forum.. are you even shooting one of those superduper rifles?

you like to ride folks till they can't reply polietly.. and pretend you have won a discussion, when all you have done is make people realize they can't win such a contest with such an obvious master...

hey, possum, dig yourself out of the holler, and go meet JD half way...

i've got $250 bucks that says NEITHER of you can hit a grapefruit, first and ONLY shot, under JD's stipulated open range conditions.


i know, for a FACT, that i can't pick up, go 500 miles away, and hit a boxcar at 1000 yards with my hunting rifles... not with the first shot ... unlikely with the 5th shot .... perhaps the 10th ... and groups measured in FEET would impress me ... i am just a local yokel, that doesn't really care about 15# rifle in 300 whizbang..

i kind of prefer HUNTING, to shooting...[/QUOTE]

Ridge Runner,

A lot of hard feelings are building up here, and no real reason on either side for it. I think a lot of it could be cleared up if you gave some information, objectively. I ask these with all respect, as I think some honest answers here could give you the credibility you crave, and would satisfy those that are benchresters, and looking at repeatability. I think the crux of the matter is repeatability, versus one time or occasional accuracy.

1) Does your rifle consistently (say 3 out of 5 times, no exceptions) shoot groups like your "wallet group" or is it your one time best group?

2) If you shot 20 consecutive five shot groups at that distance, what would your aggregate groups size look like?

3) Can you get your gunsmith to come on here, and give his real life, objective analysis of what his rifles are capable of, consistently, day in and day out. Maybe talk about what components he would prefer to use to get the most out of his skills. If he's even 50% as good as your claim, it would be a great business booster for him, and benchresters and critical shooters would be lining up to commission work. It would give him a chance to give an honest advertisement of what he can do, without someone else talking for him.

4) Do you really shoot well enough to put $1000 on the line, against a benchrest shooter? If not, there's no shame in saying so, I would be the first to admit that I wouldn't put $1 on the line against a good benchrest shooter, with him using my gun and loads and me using his! If you really are that good, it seems to me you should just graciously accept the invitation, and take the $1000 home. Or, if you prefer not to risk $1000, just say so. There's no shame in not being the best and being smart enough to not gamble on it, or even being the best and not wanting to gamble on it.

I'd respect a man that can shoot a two minute group consistently at 500 yards a lot more than one that shot a half minute group once, and talks about it like that's all he ever does, but absolutely cannot ever repeat it on demand. I see guys at the range all the time shooting 5 shot groups, that are turning in respectable groups. Then, they shoot 3 shots and they are in the .2 range. They stop right there, don't shoot the other 2, and put that one in their pocket. No mention of the 10 other groups that they shot that day, full 5 shots, that weren't even close. And, they talk about their "tackdriver" rifle. I've even seen more than one guy shoot a 5 shot group, 3 were together and 2 a couple of inches away. They tore out the 3 that were together, and showed them off as their "3 shot group". And, I think a lot of the time they actually believe themselves after they repeat the story a few times. Such is our human nature. I shot a 3/8" 5 shot group at 100 yards once with .22 lr, walmart bulk pack ammo. I've never repeated it, but I can shoot that same ammo into aggregate group sizes of between 1.25 and 1.5 inches consistently, and repeatably, with occasional groups of .75 inches. I'm prouder of that than I am of the single tiny group.


dave

RR, BC,, you guys can have the last words.. then i'll move over to MISC, as this has become a pissing contest. seriously, just post away, and i'll move over in the morning.. kind of bored with it, and its not even close to being about building guns anymore

it comes down to this, I was trying to help a guy choose an aftermarket barrel, I named off lilja, kreiger, broughton, rockcreek and hart, and quoted best from memory from 2006 when I had my rifles built, your boy vapo drags it here gets a few resposes then takes it back to hni. the thing is can any of you know it alls say those 5 makers are not among the best out there? thats all there is to it. Yes kirby can make them shoot, but you fools who think my statements would also hold to sending him a piece of 1/4" galvanised pipe and expecting a .25 moa 500 yd rifle are really rediculous.
if you were to go to a smith whom you had faith in and he gave you those recomendations would ypou go by an A&B barrel and expect the same results? nevermind, you'll never get it
RR

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I have diabetes myself, does that count? (grin)
Regards, Joe

Joe, you really got to take a hard look at yourself. Look what you just wrote to a total stranger on the internet. I mean you are a grown man. Think about it.

really? you just told me to suck it up, but come running to joe, making an honest effort to ask a man to match his MOUTH with his money?

fair wager .. and with a bit of spice to make it interesting... and in your NEXT post, you tell someone who is a total stranger to YOU to suck it up?

my my.. aint it funny when the chickens come home to roost?

Cause your a freakin grown man acting like a child. Surely, your better than this. At least I hope so.

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
Ridge Runner,

A lot of hard feelings are building up here, and no real reason on either side for it. I think a lot of it could be cleared up if you gave some information, objectively. I ask these with all respect, as I think some honest answers here could give you the credibility you crave, and would satisfy those that are benchresters, and looking at repeatability. I think the crux of the matter is repeatability, versus one time or occasional accuracy.

1) Does your rifle consistently (say 3 out of 5 times, no exceptions) shoot groups like your "wallet group" or is it your one time best group?

2) If you shot 20 consecutive five shot groups at that distance, what would your aggregate groups size look like?

3) Can you get your gunsmith to come on here, and give his real life, objective analysis of what his rifles are capable of, consistently, day in and day out. Maybe talk about what components he would prefer to use to get the most out of his skills. If he's even 50% as good as your claim, it would be a great business booster for him, and benchresters and critical shooters would be lining up to commission work. It would give him a chance to give an honest advertisement of what he can do, without someone else talking for him.

4) Do you really shoot well enough to put $1000 on the line, against a benchrest shooter? If not, there's no shame in saying so, I would be the first to admit that I wouldn't put $1 on the line against a good benchrest shooter, with him using my gun and loads and me using his! If you really are that good, it seems to me you should just graciously accept the invitation, and take the $1000 home. Or, if you prefer not to risk $1000, just say so. There's no shame in not being the best and being smart enough to not gamble on it, or even being the best and not wanting to gamble on it.

I'd respect a man that can shoot a two minute group consistently at 500 yards a lot more than one that shot a half minute group once, and talks about it like that's all he ever does, but absolutely cannot ever repeat it on demand. I see guys at the range all the time shooting 5 shot groups, that are turning in respectable groups. Then, they shoot 3 shots and they are in the .2 range. They stop right there, don't shoot the other 2, and put that one in their pocket. No mention of the 10 other groups that they shot that day, full 5 shots, that weren't even close. And, they talk about their "tackdriver" rifle. I've even seen more than one guy shoot a 5 shot group, 3 were together and 2 a couple of inches away. They tore out the 3 that were together, and showed them off as their "3 shot group". And, I think a lot of the time they actually believe themselves after they repeat the story a few times. Such is our human nature. I shot a 3/8" 5 shot group at 100 yards once with .22 lr, walmart bulk pack ammo. I've never repeated it, but I can shoot that same ammo into aggregate group sizes of between 1.25 and 1.5 inches consistently, and repeatably, with occasional groups of .75 inches. I'm prouder of that than I am of the single tiny group.


dave

Dave I don't shoot 5 shot groups, why? my rifle's favorite load is 110 gr of WC872 behind a 160 gr nosler, would you burn uop a barrel shooting paper? my agverage 3 shot groups at 800 yards are 3-4". I didn't come here to get in a pissing match with a bunch of BR shooters, I'm a hunter who strives for accuracy and I do pretty well in my way of thinking . yes that was my best group to date and if the thread on HNI was read I stated that and I stated I did it once and by god I was keeping it, not bad IMO for a hunting rifle that has 122 gr of H2o capacity.
why is it the big thing is can you do it all day long? nobody can, but days you can't is the rifle still capable? if you shoot a bad group who's fault is it? do you blame the rifle?
will kirby come here? I don't know but you can find him at www.longrangehunting.com his username is FIFTYDRIVER
do I shoot well enough to lose 1000 dollars, no, thats not in my budget, no matter how well I do, I'm an average guy who lives paycheck to paycheck.
at 500 I can hold usualy 1.625 groups with both my long range rifles but my eyesight isn't the best due to age and a botched operation when I was a youngster

quote:

at 500 I can hold usualy 1.625 groups with both my long range rifles

With that kind of consistent shooting capability, there's almost no reason for you to work. Contact some of the major rifle manufacturers, I suspect that any one of them would love to have you shoot for them and, with some coaching and training, (so fiasco's like this thread don't occur) speak for them. They would probably sponsor you on to some world records. Won't have to worry about barrel life, they'll pave the way to unlimited replacements. Give you some good income and lifestyle to be easily able to to hunt instead of work.

I think your assessment of Hart, Lilja, etc. is right on, and I would second the recommendation to use a good barrel, although the A&B adherents on here claim incredible performance from them.

And, if you're 1.625 500 yard rifles with bad eyesight are indicative of what your gunsmith can do, he should be showing up in the top shooters equipment list soon, and rising to the top of that list. He would be well advised to sponsor to have you shoot in some competition, as the incredible publicity from your winning scores would be one of the greatest advertisements he could get.

dave

Forget this guy's claim to being a great shooter. Any dime-store cowboy can make that claim.

He is calling himself a "hunter" and posts pictures of a deer he states was shot at over 1000 yards.

Shooting deer at 1000 yards is not hunting. It is treating deer like prairie dogs and whistle pigs.

However, "hunters" owe their game the respect to get as close as possible to take the ethical shot. Shooting deer at the distances claimed is L-A-Z-Y and irresponsible. If you can't get off your ass and get within a (very) few hundred yards, stick to testing your accuracy on paper.