TROLL ALERT!

Guess who (RR), he doesn't deserve any more responses since it's become obvious that he's a TROLL!
Regards, Joe

quote:

TROLL ALERT!

Guess who (RR), he doesn't deserve any more responses since it's become obvious that he's a TROLL!
Regards, Joe

You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think.
NRA Life since 1976. God bless America!

yep been here a helluva lot longer than you, guess y'all bring out the best in me
RR

Ridge Runner

Just to get thing back on topic, I have a question for you(I am asking you because you seem knowledgeable and you seem to support the quote that we are all doubting). Please keep in mind that I am a hunter and not a competitive shooter, and I don't know jack about any type of competitive shooting.

I have highlighted the quote that started this thread. I think the disbelief of most of our parts was not about the gunsmith in question being able to build a rifle that shoots 1.5" at 500yds(no reason to doubt that). Where we all called B.S. is in the idea that this gunsmith claimed that he can make any barrel the customer chooses shoot 1.5" at 500yds.

So I do believe a really outstanding gunsmith can build a rifle that is as accurate as stated when using all top quality components, but it is really hard to believe any gunsmith can do this on a consistent basis using less than top quality components.

So, my question to you: do you believe there is any gunsmith that can consistently build .3 MOA rifles using less than top quality barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

one of the smiths that it seems I keep on retainer, builds superbly accurate long range hunting rifles, he says, if my rifles won't shoot 1.5" groups at 500 yards they won't Ileave my shop. I'll use any barrel you want but if you use lilja, hart, broughton, kreiger, or rock creek you'll make my job alot easier.

Does anyone buy this?

ok, I posted that from memory from 2005 when I was talking to kirby about my build, it prolly wasn't word for word, but it was the best I could remember.
could kirby take a junk barrel and build a .3 moa rifle, prolly not, but give him good stuff and I assure ya, and hundreds others can also yes he can.
could anyone take kirby's best rifle and hold .3 moa out to 1 mile, prolly not but there are those that can, maybe not every day but often enough to call it a .3 moa rifle.
thats part of being human, you can't be the best every day, everyone has bad ones. If ya need more info email kirby at kballen@3rivers.net you'll get the info straight from the source
RR

Tom Sarver shot a 1.347" at 1000 yds and had a score of 50. Get your facts straight buddy.
Butch

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...group-at-1000-yards/
RR

The thing is when you say "the rifle will group XXX" @ XXX yards" that means it will do that day in day out. A group is an average of the shots fired. Not you best group of your best ammo on the best day at the range. That's not "a rifle that will group 1.5" @ 500 yards" That's a rifle that did group 1.5" @ 500 yards but no guarantee it will do it again.

Called luck a fluke or what ever. but for a smith to claim 1.5" Groups means a day in day out performance not a one time deal.

I made a mistake it was 1.397", but what does that have to do with anything?
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
The thing is when you say "the rifle will group XXX" @ XXX yards" that means it will do that day in day out. A group is an average of the shots fired. Not you best group of your best ammo on the best day at the range. That's not "a rifle that will group 1.5" @ 500 yards" That's a rifle that did group 1.5" @ 500 yards but no guarantee it will do it again.

Called luck a fluke or what ever. but for a smith to claim 1.5'Groups means a day in day out performance not a one time deal

man this is gettin old, let me ask you somethin, if a certain rifle with a certain load will do it today will it do it tomorrow? if it won't its operator error, thats the only thing that changes, same load makes the same pressure makes the same MV makes the same POI less the change from current conditions, really complicated huh?
RR

Mr r Runner, if you check the IBS website it shows Tom's record at 1.397" and not the 1.040 you posted. 6mmbr.com is not the official website.
Butch

caption to the link above states "sarver shoots a 1.403" group at 1000 yards, thats .13396MOA, and .3 moa at 750 is beyond your comprehension? or .3 moa at 500 is impossible? forget it!
RR

Mr r Runner you are dead wrong! Rifle tune can change from morning to evening. Have you heard of density altitude? There is not a competition rifle made that will shoot the same load every day and be competitive every day.
Butch

Yep butch you're right. Those Canadian snippers in Iraq or Afghanistan that shot that 2500 yard plus shot. Well they needed extra velocity to get that bullet as far out there as they could as fast as they could. So they set the ammo out in the hot desert sun. Gave them an added edge.

So yes a rifle will change tune due to Temp, Altitude, Humidity, and number of shots on the barrel, Throat erosion!!!

If a rifle would never change it's group size why do we still have bench rest competition???? Even with rail guns???

look I don't compete, I strive to deliver first round cold bore hits on a whitetail at whatever range they happen to be.
I shoot 1 or 2 3 shot groups a week to stay in practice, I don't know it all but I do my best and don't lie about it, I relay info that I prove to myself if ya got a problem then its your problem not mine, you guys are the pits, ya crucify someone who's trying to better themselves and if by chance they do it to well nay sayers come out of the woodworks.
In what I do I have my charts proven I know my trajectory inside and out, I set my current conditions in my pda and 99% of the time I hit what I'm shootin at. is my rifle tuned? hell if I know. density altitude? how much does that effect group size? get your panties out of a wad and go shoot
RR

ok gang up, but kc I do know that humidity from 0% to 100% amouts to approx 2" change in POI at 1k, how much does it effect group size? altitude don't mean squat if you know your station pressure. throat erosion effects shot to shot POI? thats a new one.
Ks your out of this you've shown your intelligence in 1 post
RR

quote:

Ks your out of this you've shown your intelligence in 1 post

I guess I'll go sit in the corner then Daddy

Obviously you're talking about one caliber as Humidity effects all calibers differently. We aren't talking hunting groups here.

And if you think throat erosion doesn't effect accuracy you've never put enough rounds down range. As the throat erodes the bullets have more freebore and there fore one more variable that has just changed in your tuning.

Now back to the facts. All this started because of a debate of one smith being able to produce many rifles that were alleged to shoot 1.5" groups At 500 yards. Not "a single 1.5" group" but 1.5" GROUPS again meaning over and over. Not to mention the statement about "any barrel".

I completely understand that nearly any rifle is capable of such a group but very few will do it day in day out with any barrel. That is the point. It was BS from the get go.

And if you think that's chastising wait till someone drills and taps an Orbendorf and installs weavers. They'll be crucified

Mr r Runner, I believe you opened this can of worms. I'll guarantee a rifle tuned in the weather conditions at Tomball, Texas and we go to Raton, NM to shoot the tune will be way off. You were talking competition early on and now it is hunting. I personally don't think it is ethical to shoot over 400yds at deer and elk size animals. I will not get into an argument with you about it. Neither of us is likely to change each others mind.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr r Runner, I believe you opened this can of worms. I'll guarantee a rifle tuned in the weather conditions at Tomball, Texas and we go to Raton, NM to shoot the tune will be way off. You were talking competition early on and now it is hunting. I personally don't think it is ethical to shoot over 400yds at deer and elk size animals. I will not get into an argument with you about it. Neither of us is likely to change each others mind.
Butch

when did I mention competition? and your boy vapo opened the can and then posted a link to here, and do you start a group in tx and finish it in NM?
RR

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
TROLL ALERT!

Guess who (RR), he doesn't deserve any more responses since it's become obvious that he's a TROLL!
Regards, Joe

Troll??? You have only posted here for 2 years???

Oh brother now it's come down to how long you've been on the board and how often you post.
Lets see I was originally registered back in 2000 or 01' cant remember but that's what happens when you drop off the radar for six years. Maybe I'm a troll for crawling back out from under that rock in 08' Yep do a search for Kerry.s that was me.

Now why did i drop off the radar back then.... Oh yeah I got a friggin divorce and the bitch took everything

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr r Runner, I believe you opened this can of worms. I'll guarantee a rifle tuned in the weather conditions at Tomball, Texas and we go to Raton, NM to shoot the tune will be way off. You were talking competition early on and now it is hunting. I personally don't think it is ethical to shoot over 400yds at deer and elk size animals. I will not get into an argument with you about it. Neither of us is likely to change each others mind.
Butch

when did I mention competition? and your boy vapo opened the can and then posted a link to here, and do you start a group in tx and finish it in NM?
RR

Oh lord you narrow minded knuckle head.

You just said that weather condition didn't affect a group size. Now when someone argues it you come up with some lame ass excuse of shooting in one state then another.

You're complaining of chastising then make a idiotic statement like that?????

I just talked to one of the listed World Record holders and also the IBS Long Range Shooter of the Year a couple years ago. Being that they are really on top of the long range game wouldn't they have heard of this Kirby Allen? They haven't.
Mr r Runner the guys on this forum have been around the block.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr r Runner, I believe you opened this can of worms. I'll guarantee a rifle tuned in the weather conditions at Tomball, Texas and we go to Raton, NM to shoot the tune will be way off. You were talking competition early on and now it is hunting. I personally don't think it is ethical to shoot over 400yds at deer and elk size animals. I will not get into an argument with you about it. Neither of us is likely to change each others mind.
Butch

when did I mention competition? and your boy vapo opened the can and then posted a link to here, and do you start a group in tx and finish it in NM?
RR

Oh lord you narrow minded knuckle head.

You just said that weather condition didn't affect a group size. Now when someone argues it you come up with some lame ass excuse of shooting in one state then another.

You're complaining of chastising then make a idiotic statement like that?????

wrong again moron, check my posts, where does it say that?
I doesn't if you account for it, isn't that correct? if you acoount for bar- pressure, tempature, and such, fire a 3 shot group does it only effect 1 shot or 2? does it effect one shot more than another? your adding to my words and twisting them around so you look cool to your home town crowd, fact is there are other guys that can shoot. like it or not.
I started shooting extended range in 1981, when I got online I went looking for help, I landed here, but all I found here for the most part was this I'm better than you attitudes, so I moved on, thank your boy vapo for bringin me back. but won't be here long, guarrantee ya
RR

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I just talked to one of the listed World Record holders and also the IBS Long Range Shooter of the Year a couple years ago. Being that they are really on top of the long range game wouldn't they have heard of this Kirby Allen? They haven't.
Mr r Runner the guys on this forum have been around the block.
Butch

maybe so but if you haven't heard of kirby allen you must stay way back under the barn.
3 weeks ago kirby announced that he had just shipped out his 600th rifle, most of those are owned by members of LRH.com, mosey on over talk to kirby and those who own his rifles, my advise is ditch the attitude or you'll be shown the door.
RR

I guess I live way under the barn. Does he work for Greybull? I think they cater to the long range guys.
r Runner, he may be very good, he is just not known by the Long Range competition shooters.
I'll start looking for his name on the winners list.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I guess I live way under the barn. Does he work for Greybull? I think they cater to the long range guys.
r Runner, he may be very good, he is just not known by the Long Range competition shooters.
I'll start looking for his name on the winners list.
Butch

ok winner? how many 5" groups you shot at 1 mile?
RR

Your whooped down and won't give it up will you.
You know you are a real joke and are making yourself look worse with each post.
I have no desire or need to shoot a mile. I guess you are gonna say you guys shoot prairie dogs at a mile and don't miss. I didn't come in on a turnip truck even if I am way under the porch.You know r Runner, you are really providing me with a great deal of delight and fun.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Your whooped down and won't give it up will you.
You know you are a real joke and are making yourself look worse with each post.
I have no desire or need to shoot a mile. I guess you are gonna say you guys shoot prairie dogs at a mile and don't miss. I didn't come in on a turnip truck even if I am way under the porch.You know r Runner, you are really providing me with a great deal of delight and fun.
Butch

yeah, simple people are entertained easily aren't they. whos the joke, I give you the info to find out for yourself whether I'm telling facts or not, but you hover behind your keyboard ridiculing somebody, have you researched anything? no, just run the piehole, when one convinces himself he knows it all the learning process stops, been along time since you found out anything ya didn't know I bet.
And I've never shot a prairie dog, if you had all that intelligence you profess to have workin for ya you would see I'm from wv, no pd's here, but I've taken more than a few deer beyond 1000 yards. how bout you ya got enough faith in your shootin to shoot smethin besides paper?
RR

You're a freaking joke. Taken several deer at 1000 yds. I guess they were all taken with a head shot and you never missed. I would not even try shooting a deer past 400 yds. Beat on me for that and you will come up empty. I've seen lots of you guys hanging around the range with their billfold groups. I guess you told them you shot them with your 383 Mo Fo at at 1003 yds and hit it right in the eye. We have seen your type many times and we just grin. Like I say, this is the best cheap entertainment that I have had in a while.
Butch
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You're a freaking joke. Taken several deer at 1000 yds. I guess they were all taken with a head shot and you never missed. I would not even try shooting a deer past 400 yds. Beat on me for that and you will come up empty. I've seen lots of you guys hanging around the range with their billfold groups. I guess you told them you shot them with your 383 Mo Fo at at 1003 yds and hit it right in the eye. We have seen your type many times and we just grin. Like I say, this is the best cheap entertainment that I have had in a while.
Butch
Butch

ya wanna claim your expertise at shooting , fine, wait till deer get in you lap to shoot them, fine with me, makes no difference But yes I've taken several at beyond 1000 yards. But I can assure you , you've never seen guys like me at the range, I just don't go there why? cause thats where @$$holes like you hang out. I have a bench set up in a riverbottom field where I shoot from 500 to 1060 yards every week.
Do I miss? occasionaly, like everyone does, but not often as you would think. tweak your dropchart and its pretty easily out to 1K, but I'm a joke, sure winner
RR

don't matter beans to me! even if the gun is that accurate, i am not! but, i'd have to see it done several times to believe it was more than luck.

i have no doubt that ridgerunner can make those shots, in his highly protected river bottom. hell, i bet you could take a savage, factory gun in 300 win, and in a couple days, be able to duplicate his feats, provided its about a 1/3 moa or even 1/2 moa gun.

This is why we won't see him at ranges, or competitions -- those conditions are far to variable. This is also why he has no experience in the arena, and won't leave his honey hole .. the "using my techniques and equipment" means his has so specialized for his single shooting instance, that isn't applicable anywhere else

he doesn't, however boastfully it comes across, claim to hit DEER every week out there.... unless, of course, he's claiming to be, above all else, a poacher.

Shooting game at these ranges is UNETHICAL, as a hunter's first duty is to kill the animal as cleanly as possible. How long does a deer suffer if gut shot, and has to linger until you get down there an find it? don't give me any crap that you never wound animals, and that they all die, 100% of the time ... this means either you haven't shot enough game to matter, or you don't check that you haven't wounded an animal. EVERYONE misses, which is why it is the highst ethic of a hunter to dispatch the game cleanly. If it was easy, it wouldn't be first.

Oh, ,and your honey hole of a unique shooting lab does not, in any way shape or form, support claims of a builder being able to delivery 100% of his rifles that shoot less than .3MOA, every time.

the two, in fact, are unrelated

A troll AND a punk, and continually demonstrating either his ignorance or his dishonesty or, more likely IMO, both.

But still good for a laugh as long as you don't take him seriously.

How many hundred rifles the smith has built is immaterial. How many of his rifles have won national championships? Or even placed in the top three?

If I hear of EVEN ONE, it'll be the FIRST one!

So in my book the smith is (probably) just another braggart and RR is CERTAINLY ridiculous or worse.

I suggest that RR take one of these rifles to Hawks Ridge or Hickory and try to show us how well it can shoot. I further suggest that, if he does, he will NEVER allow his pitiful results to be seen by anyone on this board!

What a joke.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I suggest that RR take one of these rifles to Hawks Ridge or Hickory and try to show us how well it can shoot. I further suggest that, if he does, he will NEVER allow his pitiful results to be seen by anyone on this board!
Regards, Joe

joe,
that's jus tthe heart of the issue, right? In his micro-ecology, down in a river bottom, between the hills, he has mastered the art of a homogenious atmospheric condition shooting. in ONE location, under VERY stable conditions.

And the rest of the long range shooters have to do it in more "realistic" real world environments.

Could *I* learn to shoot in his river bottom? yeah, in about 2 days, i too could lob em in .. without a doubt, not at his level of mastery ..

and couldn't hit a boxcar at 850 yards in a desert range with the same sight in.

i expect that would be true of most folks.

Its really interesting to watch one of these arguments (where everybody bashes each other) when I am not in it!

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
A troll AND a punk, and continually demonstrating either his ignorance or his dishonesty or, more likely IMO, both.

But still good for a laugh as long as you don't take him seriously.

How many hundred rifles the smith has built is immaterial. How many of his rifles have won national championships? Or even placed in the top three?

If I hear of EVEN ONE, it'll be the FIRST one!

So in my book the smith is (probably) just another braggart and RR is CERTAINLY ridiculous or worse.

I suggest that RR take one of these rifles to Hawks Ridge or Hickory and try to show us how well it can shoot. I further suggest that, if he does, he will NEVER allow his pitiful results to be seen by anyone on this board!

What a joke.
Regards, Joe

Are you sure, your not the troll here? I mean, you only been here a short time and only come on to agg folks on and put them down.

Isn't this the definition of a troll? I am just asking.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Its really interesting to watch one of these arguments (where everybody bashes each other) when I am not in it!

What is more interesting is nobody has ever met the other. But what I notice on here is over and over, the put downs, and all based one what the replying posters skills are.

For instance, you got one guy that won't dare shoot over 400 yards. He's not confident at those ranges. Neither am I. So what do they do? They throw stones at someone who is confident over those ranges. Its called projecting and insecurity. Somehow or another, its very discomforting to admit another man is able to do something you are not.

I know for me, it doesn't bother me in the least. I know my limits, and stick to them. RR knows his, and sticks to em.

Take jeffeo. Its rather irresponible for a moderator to pile on a guy who does not even know. Why is he doing it? You got to ask these questions. A responsible mod would just say, "I don't buy that" and leave it at that.

Big Country

Its really a big dick contest! Mine is bigger than yours, mine is better than yours, mine cost more than yours, mine is faster than yours, I know more than you do, etc. etc. etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Big Country

Its really a big dick contest! Mine is bigger than yours, mine is better than yours, mine cost more than yours, mine is faster than yours, I know more than you do, etc. etc. etc.

Yep to some extent. I know RR doesn't like to be called a liar by total strangers. Can't really blame em.

But I am fine knowing mine isn't the longest. I still have lots of fun with it.

quote:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
Are you sure, your not the troll here? I mean, you only been here a short time and only come on to agg folks on and put them down.

Isn't this the definition of a troll? I am just asking.

BC, It's long been my experience that those who brag about their own accomplishments from the safety of their long-range keyboard are almost NEVER willing to show their 'accomplishment' or try to duplicate it in public.

I've offered, several times to several braggarts on several forums, to bet a sum I really couldn't afford against their ability to duplicate their 'accomplishment'.

So far no takers, not a single one in over 10 years since I made the offer the first time.

Now, what does that sound like to YOU?

My Daddy told me long, long ago that all braggarts are punks at heart and also, about 99% of the time, liars as well. IMO he was right.

Yes, I for one don't believe him and think he's a troll. So far all his comments have been DEstructive, not CONstructive.

If you had been paying attention you'd already know that I've been commenting CONstructively on this forum since I joined, offering help to anyone and even GIVING AWAY parts and components whenever I could.

What have YOU and RR done?

And when a Moderator sees BS being posted, IMO he can comment all he wants to on either side. He ain't required to show impartiality, he's required to maintain a relatively civilised repartee exchange. IOW keep the profanity, obscenity and vulgarity down to a dull roar.

It's really pretty simple, if RR and this smith were REALLY that good, they'd have their names listed in the 'records' section of a national organization.

And RR would be offering to bet me $1000 that he could hit a grapefruit at 1000 yds. We could meet at Hawks Ridge, it's about halfway for both of us. You wanta hold the stakes?
Regards, Joe