mmaggi wrote: "Put your personal differences aside and look at the facts."

That is good advice -- except that a couple of these individulas, as noted a couple posts up, don't even have a clue as to what the facts actually are.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Vapodog wrote:

quote:

The .41 Mag generates (with standard factory ) loads about 1300 ft-lb.....

ok...then what is the energy...?

My data comes from the Hodgdon website that shows a .41 mag with a 220 grain bullet at 1563 FPS....

do the math...that's 1200 Ft-lb...in my earlier post I rounded the velocity to 1600....

So please furnish some data....

quote:

demonstrate how you come to your 430 ft-lb conclusion.

It's based on a more realistic number from Hodgdon's.....2200 MV

If there's bullshit here....it's this:

quote:

the grendel has as much energy at 500 yards as stuffing a .41 Magnum against a deers ribs at point blank and pulling the trigger..

Even if we compromise on the muzzle velocity.....the .41 Mag is still twice the energy!

1300 ft/lbs is a very hot .41 mag load, along the lines of a Buffalo Bore 265 grainer at 1350 fps. A more "standard" load would be something along the lines of a Federal 210 grain load at 1230 fps, 705 ft/lbs.

quote:

1300 ft/lbs is a very hot .41 mag load,

Hodgdon lists the 210 grain bullet at 1631 FPS....the resultant energy.....1247 ft-lb

IMO they are a somewhat conservative company.

I think you're looking at max loads. I'm looking at what would be considered a standard (tame) factory load like this one:

http://www.federalpremium.com/.../handgun.aspx?id=113

quote:

I think you're looking at max loads.

indeed they are listed as max.....just the same as most factory loads.

If you look at the Hodgdon data for the Grendel.....it says max load 2200 FPS.....are we also saying it's a iverzealous number?

IMO the 2500 FPS number I've read here is the overzealous number.

What are we shooting?.....The 6.5 Grendel Gibbs AI?

Again.....this is the statement at discussion.....and it's totally unsupportable:

quote:

the grendel has as much energy at 500 yards as stuffing a .41 Magnum against a deers ribs at point blank and pulling the trigger..

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
If you look at the Hodgdon data for the Grendel.....it says max load 2200 FPS.

I cannot find Hodgdon showing 2200fps as max. it does however have;

123 GR. SIE HPBT H335 28.7 2508mv 49,800 PSI
i assume 24" barrel, minus 200fps for 16' barrel and you have; 2300mv 1577/679[500yd]
corbon 41mag/180barnes 1300/676 ft-lb at muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

Again.....this is the statement at discussion.....and it's totally unsupportable:
"the grendel has as much energy at 500 yards as stuffing a .41 Magnum against a deers ribs at point blank and pulling the trigger."

I have no idea what Vapodog is smoking but he is on another planet with his figures. Maybe he doesn't understand the difference between FPS & FPE?

Just typing slow...

Real world chrongraphed speed with a 210 grain bullet in the 41 mag is in the 1300 range, FPS at least that's what my Ohler 35 tells me.

1600 FPS with 220 grain bullets in a 41 mag, what are you shooting them out of, a rifle barrel? Vapodog is way outside his area of expertise it seems

My real world 41mag loads in a 4 5/8" ruger were 293 grain at 1275 FPS.

In my 4" Taurus tracker loaded 2 grains lighter I get 1075 with a 293grain and 1145fps with a 265 grain bullet.

Factory loads I found to be pretty tame and I havent tried loading up anything lighter than 265 grains. Factory Platinum tip 210? gr at 1136 fps 250 grain Castcore went 1050 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
My real world 41mag loads in a 4 5/8" ruger were 293 grain at 1275 FPS.

In my 4" Taurus tracker loaded 2 grains lighter I get 1075 with a 293grain and 1145fps with a 265 grain bullet.

Factory loads I found to be pretty tame and I havent tried loading up anything lighter than 265 grains. Factory Platinum tip 210? gr at 1136 fps 250 grain Castcore went 1050 fps.

Exactly. Remington 210 grain factory loads from my M-57 is in the 1300 FPS range, the only load that hits 1500 is the Buffalo Bore 170 grain JHC and that one does 1536 FPS. Noe 220 grainers any whaere close to that fast. Vapodog and his cohort are full of $h!t

You can always tell who knows what they are doing with respect to long range shooting. They talk about a four letter word: wind.

In a brief skim of this I see only one guy who mentioned it.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
You can always tell who knows what they are doing with respect to long range shooting. They talk about a four letter word: wind.

In a brief skim of this I see only one guy who mentioned it.

If one was to read the original post that this all started over, the wind was compensated for.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5501029241/p/1

" The shot was broadside at 493 yards, he had a little more wind drift than anticipated and the bullet impacted center of the lungs about 6 inches out of the pocket"

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
You can always tell who knows what they are doing with respect to long range shooting. They talk about a four letter word: wind.

In a brief skim of this I see only one guy who mentioned it.

Look who started this thread, enough said

Vapo-

You are just trying to fix numbers to "fix" what you want to say. You said, and I quote:

"The .41 Mag generates (with standard factory ) loads about 1300 ft-lb....."

Now, instead of asking someone else to furnish numbers, how about YOU try and back up what you have stated. Show us a "standard" factory load developing anywhere near that energy level in the .41 Magnum.

What...you can't???

Didn't think so...

Would be nice if folks stuck to the facts when they try and argue something.

You guys have a ball. Vapo is elk hunting and won't be back until about the 14th. It's posted on a thread in custom guns as I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
You guys have a ball. Vapo is elk hunting and won't be back until about the 14th. It's posted on a thread in custom guns as I recall.

It was BS when he posted it and it'll still be BS when he returns

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
You guys have a ball. Vapo is elk hunting and won't be back until about the 14th. It's posted on a thread in custom guns as I recall.

I guess that gives a guy a pass on outright BS figures.

Why do I keep coming back to this thread HAHA.

The only controversial part about this shot I see is that at that range with that outfit that wind is a big concern as with all long range shots.

Obviously the bullet had enough energy to completely penetrate the deer so to me it had energy to spare. Just like a 41 mag does LOL.

The lowest energy cartridge I have shot deer with is the 9mm with a 147 grain black talon at about 20 yards. The bullet went clear through broadside. Double lung hit = dead deer 40 feet later. Considering 25 yards my max range to always keep bullets in the vitals with a 9mm I would shoot any deer all day long with a 9mm at 25 yards or less.

Of course you can see my thoughts on energy in my sig line .

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:Of course you can see my thoughts on energy in my sig line .

My exact sentiments. That figure that is calculated and not measured is a marketing tool of ammo manufacturers.

Why all the bullshit? It seems obvious to me that if someone doesn't like a certain cartridge for a certain application then they shouldn't and won't use it. That's their choice. Other's choices may differ. Assuming legality, it's none of their frigging business as far as I'm concerned.

Gatogordo wrote:

quote:

Why all the bullshit? It seems obvious to me that if someone doesn't like a certain cartridge for a certain application then they shouldn't and won't use it. That's their choice. Other's choices may differ. Assuming legality, it's none of their frigging business as far as I'm concerned.

---

+1. I couldn't agree more. My only issue here is the double standard one of the posters seems to think he deserves. He thinks it's perfectly fine for him to take a 930 yard shot on a coyote and shoot it in the arse, wounding it, with a .24 caliber bullet that is only traveling at 1330 fps and does not expand at that range.

Yet he takes exception -- compusively posting dozens of times in a blatant hijack of someone else's thread -- to another individual who shoots and CLEANLY KILLS a game animal with a gun/load that obviously proved up to the task.

To those who possess even the slightest bit of logic and reasoning ability, such actions -- not to mention the intermittent personal attacks -- are not only disrespectful but serve as the quintessential stamp of hypocrisy.

"...there was a little bit more wind drift than anticipated and the bullet impacted about 6" out of the pocket squarely in the bobbie tomek...

Please keep posting bobbie!

With the great source of material you supply, washed up comedians like Jerry Seinfeld would still be on the top of their game!

Please start an informational thread on the proper way to string a recurve!



...in the Humor Forum of course!

When you have nothing substantive to say -- which is often -- you resort to personal atacks and intentional misspellings of names, ala your ol' buddy HC.

Your copycat tactics are, to paraphrase your ol' buddy as you now often do, "pitiful and pathetic."

Grow up...

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Please keep posting bobbie!

With the great source of material you supply, washed up comedians like Jerry Seinfeld would still be on the top of their game!

Please start an informational thread on the proper way to string a recurve!



...in the Humor Forum of course!

Frikn worthless, you and your court of BS flinging jester's.

quote:

Originally posted by SMACK!!!!:
Frikn worthless, you and your court of BS flinging jester's.

Show up at any of the SRM's. Everybody will see who's worthless.

We can shoot for our rifle's "pink slips".

If you don't, you'll be known as "lack-of-sack-smack", or LOSS which perfectly fits you and the guys stroking you.

Rick,

You obviously don't know me from a whole in the ground but may I offer a bit of advice? Feel free to tell me to %&@* off, which is kind of what I expect.

You're obviously a very accomplished shooter and competitor and I know I could learn a lot from you. Being a Browning Pro Staff member carries a lot of weight and a lot of responsibility to your sponsor. Right now you're not representing them well. If I were in Browning management I'd be on the phone with you right now telling you to tone it down.

I'm no pro shooter or hunter but I know a lot about sports sponsorships as my son is a pro athlete in another sport. What I know from your behavior in the last couple of threads is that you better hope they don't find this thread. I've got no beef with you, seriously, but I think you're really starting to make yourself look real bad. JMHO.

Best wishes and good shooting!

Slug,

If you were to actually check, I have never been vulgar to anyone who has attacked me on any of these threads. If you want, I can put here in quotes all of the nasty verbage directed at me or the others who happen to disagree with the other side.

The good folks at Browning would back me in anything I've posted on this subject, Shooting Big Game with inadequate cartridges at Long Range.

Then again, the people who are affiliated with Browning have the experience and common sense not to engage in this act. I'm proud to report that no one affiliated is ethically devoid as those bragging about this.

The truth of the matter is that people who brag about shooting Big Game at Long Range with inadequate calibers and their defenders are the ones who would never have a chance to be affiliated with such a Company.

As to my "behavior" on these threads, it is in the spirit of trying to point out how rediculous this act is and discourage the inexperienced from attempting it.

Your welcome to forward any of these threads to Browning if you feel the need, but don't hide behind your fake, anonymous forum name.

I will continue to point out absurdity.

My post wasn't and isn't a threat to rat you out to Browning or anyone else. It was merely my observation and you replied as I expected you would. I never said anything about you being vulgar. I just think you're being childish, that's all.

"As to my "behavior" on these threads, it is in the spirit of trying to point out how rediculous this act is and discourage the inexperienced from attempting it."

You just said it yourself, the shooter you are talking about is obviously qualified. I would not attempt this kind of shot because I am not qualified. What you're saying is that the people reading here can't be trusted to judge for themselves whether they are qualified to make such a shot. I guess you are the the only one who can decide for them?

Smack,

I brought up the wind as I said, after briefly skimming this. And I will tip my hat that you confessed to drifting 6 inches, but man, that is a lot of error, esp at 500 yards. Easy to do at 700, but I can honestly say that is a big error at 500 yards.

Do the math on the other rounds you own/fire, and you would see they might have half the wind drift. Why use that cartridge?

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:

You just said it yourself, the shooter you are talking about is obviously qualified. I would not attempt this kind of shot because I am not qualified. What you're saying is that the people reading here can't be trusted to judge for themselves whether they are qualified to make such a shot. I guess you are the the only one who can decide for them?

You all seem to think that my input here is a commandment of some sort.

All it is is one man's opinion, just like the supporter's posts. Everyone knows that folks have freedom of choice in everything they do, and they become the sum of those choices in life.

I'm trying to point out with facts, experience, and ballistic data how risky the decision to do it is. Some don't care about wounding a Big Game Animal. Everyone is different.

I'll submit this to you, you will NEVER see a stunt like this promoted on Browning Expedtions TV or any other reputable outdoor sports show.

Why?

You know the answer to that. It's exactly what I've pointed out.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Smack,

I brought up the wind as I said, after briefly skimming this. And I will tip my hat that you confessed to drifting 6 inches, but man, that is a lot of error, esp at 500 yards. Easy to do at 700, but I can honestly say that is a big error at 500 yards.

Do the math on the other rounds you own/fire, and you would see they might have half the wind drift. Why use that cartridge?

AZ,

I've posted plenty of pertinent data as to this, but it has been ignored or not understood.

Why did smack's bro use that cartridge?

Simply to prove it was possible regardless of a bad outcome. They value a mule deer buck or a bull elk as much as a steel plate

rcamuglia wrote:

quote:

They value a mule deer buck or a bull elk as much as a steel plate

...or about as much as YOU value a coyote (shooting it with a caliber/bullet inadequate for the range and wounding it in the arse). If you don't agree with Smack's bother's shot, that's fine, but that also means the shot you took must have been ill-advised and nothing more than a stunt as well, right?

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

bobbie,

Fawn killers do have a different value than Big Game. That's why they put a bounty on them, have funds allocated to control them, and regularly shoot the hell out of them from helicopters. If you put equal value on the two, you have more important problems going on in your head than stringing a recurve backwards.

The story of this one I shot, recovered and finished at 934 yards is your "go to" attack. It's tired.

My Sponsor at Browning is a coyote hunting maniac. He's turned down Big Game hunts to go on hot calling trips. Browning also is a leader in the wolf war being waged in our Rocky Mountain west.

Hey rc, wrestling with pigs!

But you hang in there. As a reloader with no dog in this fight IMO you have the best of the field by far. Don't know if it's been mentioned before but the reported pass thru and exit was probably because even the Ballistic Tip bullet did not open at that low a velocity. Much like shooting game with a FMJ.

I am not a proponent of government regulations and restrictions but there are several which would be analogous to this situation of shooting game at this distance with this caliber. Such as restrictions on shooting deer with rimfires, minimum bullet diameters on muzzleloaders etc. If enough of these stunts are tried and a few failures documented then the do-gooders will be putting range restrictions on us. I certainly hope not but there needs to be some better judgment exhibited by all concerned to avoid interference in our hunting practices.

We never hear about the bad shots and game wounding horror stories, only the successes against all odds.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Slug,

If you were to actually check, I have never been vulgar to anyone who has attacked me on any of these threads. If you want, I can put here in quotes all of the nasty verbage directed at me or the others who happen to disagree with the other side.

The good folks at Browning would back me in anything I've posted on this subject, Shooting Big Game with inadequate cartridges at Long Range. Then again, the people who are affiliated with Browning have the experience and common sense not to engage in this act. I'm proud to report that no one affiliated is ethically devoid as those bragging about this.

The truth of the matter is that people who brag about shooting Big Game at Long Range with inadequate calibers and their defenders are the ones who would never have a chance to be affiliated with such a Company.

As to my "behavior" on these threads, it is in the spirit of trying to point out how rediculous this act is and discourage the inexperienced from attempting it.

Your welcome to forward any of these threads to Browning if you feel the need, but don't hide behind your fake, anonymous forum name.

I will continue to point out absurdity.

Definition of INADEQUATE
: not adequate : insufficient

The purpose of shooting an animal is to kill it. The Deer was killed with one shot and the bullet exited. To call the caliber inadequate given the actual facts is ridiculous and beyound logical

No more Browning products for me, I'd hate to think that my money helped sponsor your dumb ass

One shot and the animal is dead. That is a fact. Everything else after that is merely opinion.

Nice deer BTW.