The preface to the question is "In times of Need"---
__
Personally, I live in the woods, lots of deer, squirrels, fishing creek. If times got so bad that I couldn't buy food (because of imposed gov't control, disaster, or loss/devaluation of all money)and the option was either to live off the land by having to poach or accepting Gov't provided relief, then I hope I would be man enough to be a poacher.

But I agree that modern poachers in America are essentially all crooks, cheats, or immature people. BUT times are rapidly changing, just like was promised.

When I was a lad, I remember my Dad selling his "deer" rifle so's to help pay doctor bills for my little sister. According to some, I guess, he should have been in the woods killing deer.

Obviously he didn't even think of that. He hussled two jobs and worked 7 days a week. We ate quite a bit of corn meal mush and a lot of gravey (made with water, not milk). No food stamps, no welfare, no charity. I guess, like poaching, that just was not an option to my old man. But, between Dad and Mom, not a one of us kids went to bed hungry.

quote:

When I was a lad, I remember my Dad selling his "deer" rifle so's to help pay doctor bills for my little sister. According to some, I guess, he should have been in the woods killing deer.

My aren't we mellodramatic. How does killing deer pay doctor bills?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

When I was a lad, I remember my Dad selling his "deer" rifle so's to help pay doctor bills for my little sister. According to some, I guess, he should have been in the woods killing deer.

My aren't we mellodramatic. How does killing deer pay doctor bills?

By spending money on bills instead of food maybe.

Wasn't intended to be mellowdramatic. It was just a statement of facts. Facts are kinda like reality so I assume they are both rather alien terms to you.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
The preface to the question is "In times of Need"---
__
Personally, I live in the woods, lots of deer, squirrels, fishing creek. If times got so bad that I couldn't buy food (because of imposed gov't control, disaster, or loss/devaluation of all money)and the option was either to live off the land by having to poach or accepting Gov't provided relief, then I hope I would be man enough to be a poacher.

SGraves
This isn't really aimed at you, but at the broader question of public assistance(socialism) Vs. poaching(criminal activity). Your quote simply went to the heart of my question.....

It seems to me our country went socialist, to some extent, following the great depression and FDR's "New Deal". Most all of us here seem to hate socialism, but paying into the system is not optional for those of us who work and pay taxes. Some of the benefits are not optional either(social security payments), while other benefits(unemployment and welfare) require a person to swallow their pride and apply for them.

I don't personally know anyone who refuses to cash their Social-Security check. Even those who hate socialism seem to feel entitled to their SS benefits on the grounds they "payed into the system" for all those years.

But everyone I personally know seems to believe(as you do) that accepting other government handouts, such as welfare or other government provided relief, is somehow a sign of weakness. Why is that? Assuming you have paid into the system as required, why is it wrong to accept assistance from the government during a time of need?

Of course I am not talking about deadbeats who make milking the system a way of life, but rather honest hard working folk who find themselves in need.

As an elementary school teacher I see the effects that sudden poverty due to job loss has on children. In our area the largest employer shipped manufacturing overseas and closed shop leaving thousands out of work. Unemployment and home foreclosures are through the roof. But many of these people balk when you suggest that they "might" qualify(they surely would) for reduced cost or free school lunches for their children. I would guess, judging by what some of my students report eating at home, there parents also refuse to accept other "government handout" that they would qualify for due to their sudden loss of income.

Keep in mind these were people who went from making 50-100K a year, and paying a good portion of that into the system through taxes, to suddenly having no job at all.

And because of their "pride" they allow their children to suffer.

Personally I see it as their #1 duty to take care of their children. And I would rather they feed their family by accepting a handout rather than screwing up our wildlife management plans by poaching.

But this area is more densely populated that most.

Hey...WOW...just one other person understands what living in a modern society is all about. Most people just don't get it. Nearly my exact words on this subject on a different section of this forum...just more detailed. I won't get into it again with these knot heads...and I mean thick, dense knot heads. That guy smarterthanyou qualifies for one of O'Reilly's "pinheads of the year" awards. A complete moron. Nuff said...I'm outta here!

My thinking may have been on the extreme ends of the discussion.

Two Charleton Heston movies/roles had come to mind--

Soylent Green
and
the Mountain Men

Poaching

quote:

By spending money on bills instead of food maybe.

I can tell you this, if killing deer could save my daughters life then she better get better if she wants to save deer from extinction.

It's good all yall are good little trained socialists. America needs yall. People so eager to jump to the government tit aren't as likely to speak up when tyrrany holds them down, and you are much less likely to put your ass on the line, even to insure the futures of your own children. Good sheeple.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

It's good all yall are good little trained socialists. America needs yall. People so eager to jump to the government tit aren't as likely to speak up when tyrrany holds them down, and you are much less likely to put your ass on the line, even to insure the futures of your own children. Good sheeple.

So I guess since you are not a "socialist" you refuse to fund the system by paying taxes? If not, what are you doing to "fight tyranny"?

Do/will you refuse to accept your Social Security checks?

As near as I can tell you can't refuse to be a socialist in America. Most of us are funding the system, others are "on the tit" as you say. The system in not designed to have givers and the takers. It is designed to help the givers when they find themselves in need.

It just seems odd to me that the people who should not be ashamed to accept help when really in need(those who have been working and funding the system all their lives) have a really hard time accepting assistance, while others who have never worked a day in their lives feel no shame breaking all the rules to milk the system.

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Do/will you refuse to accept your Social Security checks?

Actually I plan to cash them and give the money back to my children who we are all robbing right now. Hopefully they will not report it as income.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by smarterthanu:
The system in not designed to have givers and the takers. It is designed to help the givers when they find themselves in need.

Well, since Ms AZwriter is in Chicago this weekend and I am somewhat bored, I will jump in here...

Everyone does not pay into the system. 47% of Americans pay no federal tax. I own some investment properties and see it all the time when I review tax returns (we require that if you want to rent). Most folks who earn less than 40K get money back from the government.

A very few pay most of the income taxes in this country.

quote:

Originally posted by eny:
In light of some reicent posts, I am interested in how most people feel about other people poaching vs getting something from the tax payer to get by for a while

One choice is LEGAL. The other is not. This is not to say that we have to agree with either being OK. But shouldn't that be the bottom line here?

With the amount of Permits available for Doe tags in most States there is no need to Poach deer.That being said everyone on hard times does not sit in bars drinking.If a family up here needs meat someone will buy a tag and get them a Deer.If they did`nt I would not turn them in for taking one.I live in a Rural area where neighbors help each other out.Its not like town people who like to shit on people when they are down.Jobs up here are not available period.Moving to a city to work for minimum wage and not being able to make ends meet would be brain dead.Not everybody has the good fortune I have to be retired with good money coming in and I do not look down on them because of circumstances beyond their control.People up here are honest and hard workers.The main industry logging is way down because paper mills are buying their pulp from Indonesia.Things will turn around later rather than sooner with our braindead President and Congress.So all you guys with jobs thank God for it and do not be so quick to judge others or stereotype them.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
With the amount of Permits available for Doe tags in most States there is no need to Poach deer.

I agree. And frankly, I will add that there are PLENTY of legal hunters (IMO) who would shoot more deer than they need if they knew someone would take the meat. I'm one of those hunters. One year I killed 7 deer in Ohio and about the same in Kentucky. All but 4 went to patients, friends, and nurses my wife works with. One nurse trades call for venison in fact. Between one of my friends and his 2 daughters, they'd take 3-4 deer between them per year. They do not hunt.

Given our current social safety net, there is no need to poach deer to feed oneself or one's family.

If this net would disappear, I would feel differently about someone taking game to feed themselves.

But, if one does have access to guns and ammo and one would rather shoot one's own game than take advantage of the social safety net that exists, I would expect to see these folks catching rough fish to eat, shooting pigeons and other "varmints" before they go after protected game. Most varmints are edible, if not very palatable.

A friend of mine talks of growing up immediately post depression and he and his brother would get paid to shoot pigeons by farmers and they would then collect them and their mother would cook the pigeons for food. This is the kind of behavior I would expect of a responsible person in today's society who is too proud to accept a "handout".

If they just go out and shine a deer and shoot it, they are doing that out of preference to finding a better solution. Lots of folks do a dang fine job of justifying what they want to do as being ethically proper.

As pointed out by others above, most food/subsistence poachers just put their non essential desires ahead of providing food, but justify their illegal behavior because they ate some of the game- never mind it was more entertainment than necessity.

quote:

With the amount of Permits available for Doe tags in most States there is no need to Poach deer.

People don't only get hungry between the months of October and January.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

With the amount of Permits available for Doe tags in most States there is no need to Poach deer.

People don't only get hungry between the months of October and January.

Well of course. But 4-5 deer can last a year.

It is estimated in my state that poachers kill half of the deer. That means the people who do not steal deer from their neighbors, can only get half as much deer.
Just like when a shoplifter jacks up the prices of merchandise.

Every person I have ever met who admitted to poaching, poached so they could buy beer, booze, cigarettes or other non essential items. If I had knowledge of a current poaching situation I would not hesitate to turn them in. Most of these poachers would admit to retrieving only 40 to 50% of what they killed being run off by fears of getting caught.
As far a public assistance, they should be put to work doing something, I have always said It not how much you make it is how much you spend

quote:

Well of course. But 4-5 deer can last a year.

Not if thats all you have to eat. Plus you don't have five doe tags on a Texas State hunting license. Plus in Lamps Program areas you aren't even allowed all those tags. Also some counties in the state do not have a deer season at all.

quote:

Every person I have ever met who admitted to poaching, poached so they could buy beer, booze, cigarettes or other non essential items.

Can they trade on the streets for this or do they sell deer meat for cash and then go pay for thier vices?

They use the poached deer to supplement their food instead of buying meat. They use the savings to buy beer and cigarettes.

I know a guy who used to shoot 2 or 3 deer per weekend, he would sell the meat as goat meat. He didn't need the money. He just liked picking up some extra cash by poaching.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Every person I have ever met who admitted to poaching, poached so they could buy beer, booze, cigarettes or other non essential items.

Can they trade on the streets for this or do they sell deer meat for cash and then go pay for thier vices?

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Well of course. But 4-5 deer can last a year.

Not if thats all you have to eat. Plus you don't have five doe tags on a Texas State hunting license. Plus in Lamps Program areas you aren't even allowed all those tags. Also some counties in the state do not have a deer season at all.

You are being more specific. So I won't argue with that. But some states and areas have doe/deer tags available out of season due to crop damage, etc. But I've never really considered that someone survives solely on the meat they poach. I'm skeptic on that generally speaking but I suppose it could be true.

Amazing how these threads get off course, the original thread was In times of need would you rather someone be on the dole or poach for sustenance. It has turned into an argument over whether there is actually such thing as sustenance poaching, I assure you there is. The other thing that I find amazing is that none of the people arguing that there is never any need to poach due to the fact that the perpetrators are buying cigarettes, beer, new rifles, optics and 4x4 trucks, yet they say nothing about the welfare recipients doing the same thing. This is the second time I have seen this argument play out on this forum and the only thing I get out of it is informed who the socialists and communists are on this forum.

A date was set, and Pascale agreed to meet James Presgraves at a roadside diner in Stanley, Va. The deal was completed several miles away at Presgraves' home, where he allegedly removed an assortment of bear gallbladders from the freezer and Pascale, an undercover U.S. park ranger, paid him $925 for six of the golf-ball-size organs.
--------
Instead of killing the bears just for their meat and fur, officials said, poachers were harvesting the animals for their paws and gallbladders, which can sell for hundreds of dollars in this country and thousands of dollars in Asia.



http://articles.sfgate.com/199...andoah-national-park

quote:

A date was set, and Pascale agreed to meet James Presgraves at a roadside diner in Stanley, Va. The deal was completed several miles away at Presgraves' home, where he allegedly removed an assortment of bear gallbladders from the freezer and Pascale, an undercover U.S. park ranger, paid him $925 for six of the golf-ball-size organs.
--------
Instead of killing the bears just for their meat and fur, officials said, poachers were harvesting the animals for their paws and gallbladders, which can sell for hundreds of dollars in this country and thousands of dollars in Asia.

This thread can play out forever as you can never explain reality to the "what if" group.

If you try hard enough, you can come up with a scenerio wherein a person may need to steal game animals in order to feed his family. But, I'm gonna guess that 99.89762% of the poachers are just sleazy outlaws that are just breaking another law.

From my experience in WV, if you offer the poachers a job, even off the books, they won't take it.

quote:

This thread can play out forever as you can never explain reality to the "what if" group.

"What if" your testicals had been ripped off in a freak karoke accident causing you to loose your job as a village person back up singer. Is it OK to stand in line for the government tit then? Or is the "reality" that most people willing to turn in thier souls for a government handout never had much there to begin with. I love it when people claim they have firm judgement on everyone's reality.


Merry Christmas. I am thankful everyone here has been blessed with a computer and won't have to poach this winter. Best wishes to all.

What if your parents never had children? The odds are you won't have any either; so you won't have to steal to feed them.

You aren't quite up to speed on Right & Wrong yet are you?

Poaching is stealing. It is that simple. They catch you, you probably go to jail. They don't have family units there, unless you consider your bunkie and all of his friends family.

You don't turn in your soul for a government handout. You just say "I have spent my adult life paying into the system, so has my employer; and now I am going to get some of that money back!

The government can't give you money doink! They don't have any of their own. They take it from you, and the rest of us. At gunpoint if necessary.

Pick any point you want on the continuum


Rob a liquor store<--------------------->Poaching

It's a slippery slope when you start justifying criminal behavior for hunger given there are many alternatives.

Perhaps all people should consider that they may at some point in their life need help and therefore live a life that is more courteous and generous towards others so when they are in need they friends show generosity.

Heck, I know of several examples just on AR of people pitching into help others out.


Somehow I think there are certain folks that nobody would lift a finger for.

I voted no to poaching. it is breaking a law. Do I agree with ALL the laws that we have, not by a long shot. Does that make it all right to break them, not usually

I believe there is an attitude that goes with poaching, and would bet that the majority of people have to SPEND money to poach. I live an hour from hunting areas, a round trip in my vehicle is going to cost me 45 plus bucks. How much hamburger could I get for that? and success of my poaching excursion isn't guaranteed.

the reality is there is nothing MORE manly about poaching than there is about taking assistance.

I'll try not to get into the whole socialism/social party thing here, it's a huge conversation that seldom goes anywhere. I'll just say that the people that think we aren't a socialist society are mistaken. Hell, we bailed out private companies, how is that true capitalism? anyways, we have these programs, the problem is they suck, the rules, the way they're administered.

There is NOTHING wrong with taking assistance if you've paid into the system. come on, that's your money. Maybe the people that say breaking the law is somehow more noble are the guys that don't pay in. I pay in, if I ever need unemployment or disability I'll take it in a heartbeat and not feel guilty.

I think the simplest and first restriction they should have on it should be that you can't get any more out of the system than you put in. 1 year paid in, 1 year assistance. etc. etc.

with unemployment at a reported 17% in my town, I don't fault anybody that has rightfully paid in for taking assistance.

Now....there are others of course that are just dead beats, pieces of shit, but until the system is overhauled there's nothing to do about that.

Red

quote:

What if your parents never had children? The odds are you won't have any either; so you won't have to steal to feed them.

You aren't quite up to speed on Right & Wrong yet are you?

Poaching is stealing. It is that simple. They catch you, you probably go to jail. They don't have family units there, unless you consider your bunkie and all of his friends family.

You don't turn in your soul for a government handout. You just say "I have spent my adult life paying into the system, so has my employer; and now I am going to get some of that money back!

The government can't give you money doink! They don't have any of their own. They take it from you, and the rest of us. At gunpoint if necessary.

So what is the temperature like in fairy land today?

So is it wrong to speed? Is it wrong to speed when your wife is in labor?

Is it wrong to murder someone? Is it wrong to murder someone for the only lifejacket on a sinking boat?

These are real legal questions and I want to see you righteous law experts answer them. I want to see when you finally start using judgement to make decisions and quit having a government hand you your answers and your daily bread.

Mike,

If you think liquor store robberies and poaching are the same your priorities are screwed up. Victimizing a human being is not on the same level as shooting an animal. You may want to re-examine whether you are a closet anti-hunter.

Poaching deer is stealing from hunters.

95% Of hunters would be perfectly acceptable with the rare poor person poaching a deer for food. That is the kind of people hunters are.

But 99% of poachers are selfish lazy people stealing from hunters. They are the same as people who live off the dole by cheating the system.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

What if your parents never had children? The odds are you won't have any either; so you won't have to steal to feed them.

You aren't quite up to speed on Right & Wrong yet are you?

Poaching is stealing. It is that simple. They catch you, you probably go to jail. They don't have family units there, unless you consider your bunkie and all of his friends family.

You don't turn in your soul for a government handout. You just say "I have spent my adult life paying into the system, so has my employer; and now I am going to get some of that money back!

The government can't give you money doink! They don't have any of their own. They take it from you, and the rest of us. At gunpoint if necessary.

So what is the temperature like in fairy land today?

So is it wrong to speed? Is it wrong to speed when your wife is in labor?

Is it wrong to murder someone? Is it wrong to murder someone for the only lifejacket on a sinking boat?

These are real legal questions and I want to see you righteous law experts answer them. I want to see when you finally start using judgement to make decisions and quit having a government hand you your answers and your daily bread.

Mike,

If you think liquor store robberies and poaching are the same your priorities are screwed up. Victimizing a human being is not on the same level as shooting an animal. You may want to re-examine whether you are a closet anti-hunter.

quote:

Poaching deer is stealing from hunters.

What if you poach a deer where there is no deer season? Who are you "stealing" from then? What if you poach something besides a deer? Why is it everyone is worried only about thier sacred deer and nothing else?

You still avoided the questions in my last post.

If there is no deer season there is probably a reason for it.
There are laws for reasons. And the reason is that there are enough lazy and selfish people to totally screw everything up for everybody else.
I'm sure you can come up with justification for all kinds of criminal activity, I don't know why you want to.
But you do seem awfully intent on justifying why it is ok to break laws.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

Poaching deer is stealing from hunters.

What if you poach a deer where there is no deer season? Who are you "stealing" from then? What if you poach something besides a deer? Why is it everyone is worried only about thier sacred deer and nothing else?

You still avoided the questions in my last post.

quote:

If there is no deer season there is probably a reason for it.

You are dodging the question. I was not asking if they have a reason. You proclaimed poaching to be "stealing from hunters". So who are they stealing from if they are in an area where there is no hunting? All these people believe that I want to "justify" this action when in reality I just want to show that not everything is so cut and dry, and in reality when choosing between government handouts and breaking the law sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.

Then please just go ahead and name this incredibly rare case where poaching animals is better than accepting public assistance. We can all agree that in this 1% it is better, just like the game warden who chose not to arrest those poor people. Then we can be done with this 1%, and this whole argument to defend thieves.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

If there is no deer season there is probably a reason for it.

You are dodging the question. I was not asking if they have a reason. You proclaimed poaching to be "stealing from hunters". So who are they stealing from if they are in an area where there is no hunting? All these people believe that I want to "justify" this action when in reality I just want to show that not everything is so cut and dry, and in reality when choosing between government handouts and breaking the law sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.