lookie here

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=60773&an=0&page=0#60773

What's the odds he passed up a shot at 100 yds to take that one?

820 yard shooting opportunities on elk are not uncommon; it is the shooters that are capable of such shots that are.

I guess that a 300 Win Mag is capable of some long range stuff after all

He ranged it he knew what was needed to make it and he took it and kill his elk. Looks to me like a good shot.

Well done! If you know you can, and he could, why not?

I'm a born cynic, but assuming that story is the truth, it looks like everything worked out just fine.

Most of the time, big game shooting at over 800 yds. under field conditions is not a great idea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by allen day:
I'm a born cynic, but assuming that story is the truth, it looks like everything worked out just fine.

Most of the time, big game shooting at over 800 yds. under field conditions is not a great idea.

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I've never seen a post where some guy is holding a sign saying: 820 yards and here's the blood trail to prove I hit it. Maybe I'll get lucky and find it tomorrow as I've trailed it all day and it's still going.

By the looks of the countryside, he could have gotten alot closer? I would say well done though, just not my style of "hunting".

A shot (even though it was apparently a clean kill) at almost half a mile seems to take all the fun out of hunting. Of course, that's just my opinion. For some, that might BE the fun of hunting, er shooting game.

I know I souond like a broken record. I shoot all the time at long range. In fact, I bet there aren't two posters who do more of it than me.

I often shoot at 800-850 yards at painted rocks. At 800 yards the bullet splash, even from a .300 RUM, is often no bigger than a dime. At 600 yards it is about 2 1/2 inches.

The guy never mentions the wind. At that range, a 1 mph will blow any bullet 4 inches. A princess fairy farts harder than that.

I was shooting yesterday at 700 yards. The wind was blowing. I dialed in 20 clicks of windage, but then took ten out when the wind died down. The I thought about taking more out. I should have. My bullet hit 5 inches to th right. At 800 yards, any wind is tough. If you are going to shoot that far you should at least shoot a sighter on a rock or something, and then hope the wind doesn't change or the animal doesn't move.

Far be it from me to presume to impose my beliefs and/or values on another. My personal guidelines for long range
shooting of live game may differ greatly from yours, and that is OK. Experienced long range riflemen/women can
and will have different capabilities, concerns, limitations and objectives which tend to help them to form their own
guidelines.

As pointed out by allen day, vapodog and AnotherAZWriter, long range game shooting carries with it certain risks
and responsibilities. I do not wish to accept the responsibility for making anyone’s decision for them, but there are
many factors which I take into consideration before deciding to make a shot, including my capabilities/limitations,
my rifle/ammo known performance, weather conditions, etc., but the following top the list on any given day.

Three factors top my list of concerns in decision to shoot/not shoot a game animal.

Wind: First of all, field conditions are much different than shooting off sand bags on a shooting bench or cinched up
in a hard-back shooting jacket with a target rifle in the prone position on a known distance range complete with
several range flags to help judge wind direction/velocity. Even on more-or-less level rifle ranges, wind tends to swirl
and vary from the 800/900/1000 yard firing line to the target pits, affected by tree lines, gullies, etc. It is not
uncommon to have three range flags (one at target pits, one at 600 yard line and the one @ 1000 yd line) each
indicating totally different angles/wind values. How can I know what the wind is doing across the valleys and in the
trees in hunting situations?

Range: Even on known-distance firing ranges, two sighter shots are normally allowed before competitor begins
his/her record string. Do I know the exact trajectory of my rifle/load at the range in question? How much will a 25
yard range estimation error affect the point of impact (POI) at that range? Ballistic programs are great guidelines
for determining trajectory but IMHO should never be trusted 100%. Range testing is the only way to be sure where
the bullet will strike at any given range.

Target: One of the major limiting factors I consider is, if the animal decides to take a step just as I am breaking the
shot, how far off will my shot be? This is a factor I seldom hear mentioned in discussions on long range game
shooting. In years past, I have made some long shots that I would not attempt today because of this. Sure, if the
animal stands perfectly still on a calm, bright day, at a known distance and I have a good rest and an accurate rifle I
am completely familiar with, the results will be good. However, let the animal decide to take a step forward, just as
the shot breaks, the difference can easily be a gut shot animal instead of a humane DRT shot at ranges of 400 yards
or more.

Again, please understand that I am not attempting to impose my standards on anyone else, just my thoughts on my
obligation to the game I hunt to make every effort to do so in a humane manner.

Regards,
hm

I don't know, I am still waiting for the post from one of these long range shooters saying "darn, I misread the wind on the far side of the canyon and never did find the elk I hit!" They must all be perfect everytime!

I am still waiting for the guy to take me up on my offer to fly to AZ for free so I can witness someone who can hit a 10"x10" target at 800 yards on the first shot nine of ten times.

Great shot! How much energy did that bullet have left and how underpowered is a 30/30 at 1/4th that distance?

The hunter was a dummass for shooting that far. He proves it by bragging about it. If what he says about the distance is true or even if he is lying giving others inspiration to shoot overly long shots is not right. The man has no ethics, how many elk did he wound?

He is probably braggin so much because he still cant believe he really hit anything. Those that brag too much, you have to wonder about.

AnotherAZWriter Maybe you should post that on www.lonrangehunting.com. I think you might have a few takers on your offer. Also what most people forget is you are not out there shooting in a 20 MPH wind at animals at long range. As for the wind it can move a bullet at any distance. How many of you have shot a animal in a 20 + MPH wind at 200 yards? Most rifles will be off 5 + inches at that distance which is enough to cause a bad hit. But nobody ever says anything about that because it is only 200 yards.

I have done a bit of long shooting at deer, etc., but usually there were other circumstances. Last year I shot a doe at 430 yards, that someone had broken a hind leg on. I can't imagine that someone would make up a sign like that with the plan of bragging about it on the internet. I think he's not all there. It's also pretty hard to find a still day to shoot 800 yards in most of the western US.

quote:

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My hunting technique was nothing too elaborate. I really wanted to take a 1000 yard shot, but I told myself that 800 yards plus would be ok too. So I glassed the area over and over and found the general area where the elk hung out throughout the week. Then I looked at possible places I could get the long shot I wanted. I marked a few areas on my map that would make good shooting "benches" overlooking big areas. When we found the right herd about 2 miles away, and hiked up to get 1000 yards away from them. But, the lay of the land would not permit a shot that far from our angle. So we went up the highest peak above the elk and set up for the shot. There was about 100 elk in the vicinity, but only five were far enough away to make my minimum 800 yard shot. The rest of the story is history.

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Emphasis added by me.

That is the exact opposite of hunting in my book. Hiking away from an animal to get a farther shot...what a joke. Being dissappointed that he couldn't get further away?!???!? Come on...

I am generally all for letting people do what turns their own crank, but this particular crap really turns me off. This kid just gets off on showboating and has no respect for the animal or the true spirit of hunting.

The saddest part is all the kudos and positive reinforcement he received. What percentage of the hunting fraternity actually thinks this stuff is cool????

Dismayed,
Canuck

For anyone that didn't read to the bottom, here is what else he had to say...

quote:

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On my desert sheep hunt 2 years ago, I shot my ram first shot at 760 yards, but it just blew it's leg off. Then it started coming closer. At 650 yards, I got impatient and fired again while he was still walking towards me. I saw the bullet impact exactly were his chest would have been, but he walked right out of the way. Luckily, he stopped at 630 and looked behind him at the dust. The third shot drilled him square in the shoulder blade and he dropped like Rosie o'Donnells ratings!

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Says enough all by itself.

Canuck

I'll be sure and pack poster paper and a sharpie with me next time I take to the field. I smell a rat.

Chuck

I expressed my thoughts on this just over a week ago, on another thread concerning long distance "hunting" and I was severely castigated for my opinions. While that, in itself, has all worked out and we are now all buddies, as it should be on this wonderful forum; I just have to say that I loath this kind of thing, period.

There is absolutely NO reason to shoot any animal at a range that a sure kill is not certain and this dolt talks about blowing the leg off of a Sheep!!??? What disgustingly unsportsmanlike behaviour!!! I also agree strongly with individual choice and freedom, but, that does not mean that selfishness and bad judgement should be allowed to ruin hunting, as this sort of thing certainly will!

One good thing about a shot like that, is that if he had of missed, then there were not other hunters out to worry about hitting. At least it sounded the way it was written.

One point that was not mentioned above, that I always get a kick out of. Long range shooters, always talk about bullet performance at those long ranges, and it had a velocity of 1800 fps or so.

Yet at the same time, they knock another round that has less MV than a magnum and tell us how it won't kill something at 250 yds, with a velocity of 1800 fps, yet it is perfectly fine when that 1800 fps is at 600 yds or more.

I probably would not have taken the shot. However I do shoot a lot at a rock the size of a small file cabinet on our range at 725 yds, which is no big deal after you have done it once or twice. Elk will also meander out there and graze by that rock at times. They would be easier to hit than the rock. I actually shot a coyote out by it one day.

Since the guy knew exactly how much elevation to add to his scope for the shot, I would trust a guy doing that, versus Joe Schmoe who just did a quick guestimate and lucked out.

Cheers
seafire

This issue, and it's long-term affect on hunting, is hopelessly lost on the small cadre of long range shooters that champion it. Where this practice leads is best illustrated by one of the long-range shooting "gurus"......Darryl Cassel.

http://www.wildcatshooting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1049&sid=e02b125f574565d7d4427e53ffc9f8d8

"On the first day DC picked up a herd that had 3 bulls in it and only one was legal. I started on him with the first shot at 1850 yards.
My spotters and I saw the bullet go in right behind him because of a wind change. He changed range while trotting further out and joined in the middle of the herd. I had to wait for a shot as they were moving away and all bunched up. I did manage two more shots when he stopped. One at 1950 yards and one at 2100 yards. Both went over his back by less then a foot which was reported by three spotters using real good optics. I ranged the last time as they were going away and it was 2250 yards and then they made it to the dark timber.
That bull was living a charmed life and was the only one I had a chance to shoot at that was legal."

That bull was living a charmed life. It could have made the dark timber with it's lower jaw shot off.

GV

While I am not mitigating the skill required to hit your target at these distances, I firmly believe that the target should not be a animal. You might make the case for a small varmint, as any hit would be fatal, but not big game animals like deer or elk.

The question that I always ask, and never get a response to is "do you always go and check the spot to make sure that you didn't just get a marginal hit if the animal runs off into the woods?" Usually the response is something along the lines of "our optics are so good, we don't need to go check". Oh, OK!

dukster, that would be a loud NO! If they are too lazy to get closer, why actually "walk" to the impact site & check for a hit?
Like I said, not my style of hunting. If I can "hunt" closer, I alwyas do.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
AnotherAZWriter Maybe you should post that on www.lonrangehunting.com. I think you might have a few takers on your offer. Also what most people forget is you are not out there shooting in a 20 MPH wind at animals at long range. As for the wind it can move a bullet at any distance. How many of you have shot a animal in a 20 + MPH wind at 200 yards? Most rifles will be off 5 + inches at that distance which is enough to cause a bad hit. But nobody ever says anything about that because it is only 200 yards.

Dakor:

I don't frequent LRH because they have a strict policy against any ethical discussion. So go ahead and post my invite for me.

Your post about 5 inches of wind drift in a 20 mph wind is interesting - that is the wind drift from ANY super Mag at 800 yards in a one mph wind. Sounds like our hero didn't even measure it.

You can get lucky in the wind. But seriously, when 1 mph of wind drifts your bullet 5 inches, how can you call that ethical????

Long shots are great for targets. Its then a Game. Not so for shooting at game animals. I was taught to get as close as I could. Shooting at that range is dumb luck no matter what the equipment. Years of steel silhouette shooting have proved it to me. To many variables.

there are a lot of variables... once one gets beyond a couple hundred yards the conditions really start to make a bigger difference, quality of rest, animal movement, wind, and trajectory changes faster

I also prefer getting close (there's nothing like using a bow) and a stalk can be a big part of the thrill to me. On the other hand, I have made a number of shots in the 250-300 yd range when that looked like it would be the only opportunity. The shots were made with a lot of confidence based upon knowing my equipment, having a good rest, and a stationary animal. I shot under a pronghorn once (it turned out to be ~350 in the days before I had a rangefinder), but otherwise the shots were all kills.

I'm curious how highly trained snipers view this, aren't they prepared to take very long shots? This is an area I haven't really studied. I know something about my own limitations from field position practice on paper and milk jugs, but don't feel I can extrapolate my own level of skill (and/or lack thereof) to others.

I'm wondering what the real limitations are for the very best field shooters around. What sort of groups are typical in longer range competitions with hunting type gear? Are silhouette shooters highly consistent at 500 yds?

I guess my overall take on it is that a shot that is unethical for one person might be routine for another. And, just because one person can make a 6-800 shot doesn't mean I should try it on a whim.

AnotherAZWriter I really do not think range has anything to do with it. I know people who do not practice at all. They sight their rifle in at 25 yards the day before season and try shoot deer at 200 yards. How is that anymore ethical? If a guy practices in the wind knows his setup and knows his equipment what is wrong with that? He killed the cow when she was sleeping in her bed. She never moved. I do not agree with his shot on his ram either. I think he pressed the conditions and got impatient and that was his down fall and the ram had to suffer because of it which pisses me off! I know right now I can shoot a Whitetail deer out to 500 yards in a 10 MPH wind 10 out of 10 times. Would I try that same shot at 550 or 600? No I would not because I have not practiced enough an a small kill zone at that range. Would I shoot a ELk at 800 yards? NO but I would at 600 yards if the conditions are right if they were not I would let it walk or try get into MY RANGE. It's called you have to have self control and shoot with in YOUR RANGE that YOU have practiced and know your varibles. Do you think the guys that shoot 1000K or more are lucky? Their not they are good. They practiced and burnt out dozens of barrels to learn the varibles they would face to break the 10 ring that far under different conditions. Then some will say you don't have the pressure in a match shooting paper like you do at animals. Well when there is $ on the line and you are in front of 100 people or more and your last shot needs a X to take it I don't think you can call that not having pressure. As for your invite I am not getting in the middle of that. I would hate to see someone take your money from you because you might shoot out to 800 yards but there are guys out there that a 800 yard shot is a chip shot to them. Some guys shoot bowling pins at a mile on that forum thats 1800 yards under field conditions. So we will leave that up to you.

Shooting long or short, I thought the idea of the act of hunting, as opposed to mere killing, was to get within the flight distance of an animal without it being aware of it, then killing it cleanly.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
I really do not think range has anything to do with it. I know people who do not practice at all. They sight their rifle in at 25 yards the day before season and try shoot deer at 200 yards. How is that anymore ethical?

It isn't any more ethical. However, is it less ethical than the example I posted previously? 3 shots at an elk.....1850, 1950, and 2100 yards. All misses.

If the nimrod in your example blasts away at a deer 200 yards away.....resulting in 3 complete misses.....you justifiably tell him to quit shooting and get the hell out of the woods before he cripples something. He's shooting way beyond his capabilities.

Does the very experienced, practiced, well-equipped shooter of my example get a pass because he's spent so much time, money, and effort practicing his craft?

In my book........NO. He's guilty of the very same bad judgement as the 200-yard lead-flinger.

Worse, he's a vanguard of that "sport".

quote:

Do you think the guys that shoot 1000K or more are lucky? Their not they are good.

Yes, they are good. However, for a certain segment of their group, that very skill frequently forces them to continue pushing the envelope until they reach the limits of both their skill and equipment.

Shooting at game isn't the proper place to make that extension. And that is certainly an ethics issue.

GV

Dakor:

I can afford the plane ticket. But hey, if this is bet, sounds fun! We can shoot at 800-1000 yards. Hey, I will even shoot sitting and you guys can shoot prone. We shoot once per hour for five hours on Saturday, once per hour for five hours on Sunday, all at different targets.

You win, I pay for the plane ticket and write about you in The VARMINT HUNTER. I win, you pay for the ticket. I will win either way, cuz i get a story out of it.

If none of us puts 9 of ten in a 10 inch target, we both lose, and the shooter buys the ticket. I still write the story.

How can anyone resist that? After all, it is a chip shot for many.

The person who was shooting at a elk at 1200 yards or what ever was doing just that shooting multiple shots and hoping to hit the target which he writes about and gives other long range shooters a bad name. AnotherAZWriter I will tell you flatout in this stage of the game I cannot hit that 10 inch target 9 out of 10 times at 800 yards. See I no MY Limits which most long range shooters do but it is like with any group you get a few slobs in the bunch and it gives everyone a bad name. AnotherAZWriter you also mention you write for varmit hunter magazine. So you have heard about Kreg Slack's 3125 yard Prairie Dog he shot with his 338 Lapua mag. I don't know him and have never talked to him but mybe you want to contact him and see if he will do your article you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
AnotherAZWriter I will tell you flatout in this stage of the game I cannot hit that 10 inch target 9 out of 10 times at 800 yards. See I no MY Limits which most long range shooters do but it is like with any group you get a few slobs in the bunch and it gives everyone a bad name.

Apparently you are not the only one who knows his limits, since no one has taken up the offer.

Interesting, I have seen other posts by Mr. Cassell regarding taking game at long ranges. Usually they are somewhat condecending in that those that question the ethics don't know how good these shooters are. I don't recall ever seeing any threads about missing the animals. At most, there was one "ranging" shot and then they drop the animal (target) where it stands. Usually a lot of discussion about the optics and the ranging shot to judge the wind. From that post about the elk, there wasn't much wind judgement, just a couple of Hail Mary shots being thrown downrange. First thread I have seen by any of these guys that admit to misses. I noticed that again they were "certain" of the misses at that range due to the 3 guys and their optics. No mention of hiking over to check to be sure there wasn't a hit around the edges.

Short & to the point! I'M NOT IMPRESSED!
Too bad the guy has such disrespect for such a grand animal.
Bear in Fairbanks

dakor---I am impressed(hard thing to do)and confused(easy thing to do). Tell me more. You can kill a whitetail in a 10MPH wind 10 out of 10 times at 500 yards---that gets my applaud. To get that consistent would take a heap of practice and a huge heap of deer to establish that rate. How many deer have you killed at that range to establish this phenominal statistic? How do you dope the wind to know what it's doing from point of shot to the target--that it didnt change direction and velocity? You really do know your limits in that you can do the 500 yard shot 100% of the time,but wouldn't try a 550 yard shot(lack of practice) on a deer but a 600 yard elk is back in your range. Skills this precise could make you rich. A free throw in basketball,a strike bowling,30 yard putts---any of these would indeed be a chip shots compared to a 500 yard in 10 MPH wind. 100% of any of these you'd be wealthy. You mentioned the person sighting in at 25 yards and trying to shoot deer at 200 yards. MOST rifles with a scope set at 25 yards are pretty close (well within kill zone)at 200 yards. Perhaps the guy knows this and is just checking to be sure scope is still on.

Well carpetman if you must know I have shot 15 of the 72 whitetails I have shot around the 500 yard mark. I dont practice on deer I practice on a 6 inch kill zone. Why would I shoot a Elk out to 600 yards but not a deer? Because a Elk has dam near 3 times the kill zone thats why. I have also shot around 1000 rounds in the last 4 months. I live in ND that is probably one of the most adverse weather condition states in the country. One day it can be -35 and the next 25 above zero and the wind here can be unreal sometimes. So I get to shoot in all kinds of weather and wind. I never said I was a great shot I said I know my limits there are guys out there that can smoke me at any range and not think twice about it. I also pick my shots if I do not like the conditions I do not shoot. I let a 153 net B&C buck walk this year at 427 yards because I did not like the conditions. How do I know what he scored? Because we waited until he bedded down and I walked for him and he ran right to my friend who was in better position and he shot and killed him. How do I know any of you can even hit the broadside of a barn at 100 yards? I don't, Just like you don't know if I can either.

dakor--Yes I understood the larger kill zone of an elk over a whitetail. Ofcourse that 100 more yards is 100 more yards that the wind could change. In those 72 deer were there any misses? I had a bass on the line that weighed 12 pounds 3 ounces,but he got away. How did I know what he weighed? Urr uhh,well I saw his scales.