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Sorry Flippy, but that's completely incorrect. Wind drift isn't only related to time of flight. BC is, in fact, a bigger factor. In most realistic comparisons (similarly shaped bullet, max velocity for a given cartridge), the heavier bullet with the higher BC has much less wind drift--even with a longer time of flight to a given range. That's just the way it works. Try it sometime.  | |||
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fusione, ya know what I didn't read your whole post so I appologize.... I guess I am so used to everyone bashing this style of hunting and your post looked like so many others that I didn't really "read" it.... rickt300.... yeah actually I can judge wyomings wind pretty well... living here and hunting here you tend to become pretty adept at accuratly predicting and decifering the conditions. No i dont' think hunting is the same a shooting and how would yo uknow anyway....there has been many many bluffs, challenges bets etc. on this rediculous place... but.. I will put any of my skills (hunting or shooting) up against any of yours.... and before you accept this challenge look into my background a bit... I am not arguing any stunts... I just get real tired of blowhard as yourself who naysay the sprot of LR hunting becuase they cannot accomplish the accuracy required so it is easier to denounce than it is to acknowledge the skills required. I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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Funny how few of the LR "hunters" ever acknowledge that many of us that do not condone the activity that I'll call "purposely hunting for the opportunity to take a long shot at an animal" actually do have the marksmanship skills required, and also have a lot of respect for others that have the same or better skills on paper. Canuck | |||
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That's funny. In Spyro Andes's last post he never mentioned BC as a factor in accuracy, only bullet weight. Bullet weight is ONE factor of many that affect trajectory. BC is a very important factor, agreed. However BC alone doesn't really matter if it takes much longer for the bullet to get to the target. Steve Hornady has alot to say about this in their new reloading book. Pretty interesting reading... Try it sometime. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Canuck is the voice of reason here. In his first post he mentioned that the long range shooter tried to find a long shot and even longer. This is wrong. It's plain wrong to do that on game. Keep it on paper for those stunts. Of course I may take a shot a running game but I don't pass up a shot at a standing animal or make it run to shoot at it. It's really not complicated or unclear whats going on here. Like Canuck said, any of us could get a magnum and measure the ranges and practice some and then blast at some poor beast to see what happens. It's the adult who knows that it's wrong to make the shot longer or harder than it has to be. This is quite fundimental. Join the NRA | |||
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Back on page 3, the bozo admits to breaking the leg on a beautiful ram with his 1st shot at long range. Yup! That shows a lot of respect for a fine animal. Hope he ends up puking every time he looks at that mount in his house. Nuff said about this stupid thread. Bear in Fairbanks Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes. I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have. Gun control means using two hands. | |||
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Because similar design, not to mention caliber, was implied. A heavier bullet, of similar design and caliber as the lighter bullet, will have the higher BC. 150 grain MatchKing .417 @ 2800 fps and above .397 between 2800 and 1800 fps .355 @ 1800 fps and below 155 gr. HPBT Match Palma .450 @ 2600 fps and above .443 between 2600 and 1800 fps .417 @ 1800 fps and below 168 gr. HPBT MatchKing .462 @ 2600 fps and above .447 between 2600 and 2100 fps .424 between 2100 and 1600 fps .405 @ 1600 fps and below 175 gr. HPBT Match .505 @ 2800 fps and above .496 between 2800 and 1800 fps .485 @ 1800 fps and below 190 gr. HPBT Match .533 @ 2100 fps and above .525 between 2100 and 1600 fps .515 @ 1600 fps and below 200 gr. HPBT MatchKing .565 @ 2100 fps and above .560 between 2100 and 1600 fps .560 @ 1600 fps and below 220 gr. HPBT Match .629 @ 2100 fps and above .624 between 2100 and 1700 fps .608 @ 1700 fps and below 240 gr. HPBT Match .711 @ 2150 fps and above .702 between 2150 and 1800 fps .685 @ 1800 fps and below Just so you don't believe that it is a Match bullet type thing... or even a boattail spitzer thing... Here is the data for roundnose bullets... 150 gr. RN .200 @ 2700 fps and above .227 between 2700 and 1700 fps .270 @ 1700 fps and below 180 gr. RN .240 @ 2800 fps and above .280 between 2800 and 2200 fps .330 between 2200 and 1500 fps .355 @ 1500 fps and below 220 gr. RN .310 @ 2600 fps and above .335 between 2600 and 2200 fps .378 between 2200 and 1600 fps .410 @ 1600 fps and below Anway, back to wind drift, lets use a 240 grain Sierra Match King and compare the wind drift to a 150 grain Match King. Distance 300 yards w/ 20mph crosswind 240 grain @ 2900 fps... 7" of drift 150 grain @ 3600 fps... 11" of drift Distance 400 yards w/ 20mph crosswind 240 grain @ 2900 fps... 14" of drift 150 grain @ 3600 fps... 19" of drift Distance 500 yards w/ 20mph crosswind 240 grain @ 2900 fps... 22" of drift 150 grain @ 3600 fps... 32" of drift Distance 600 yards w/ 20mph crosswind 240 grain @ 2900 fps... 33" of drift 150 grain @ 3600 fps... 49" of drift | |||
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Apparently you haven't looked up the BC's of the bullets he mentioned. When you understand that BC is proportional to sectional density which is proportional to weight in a given caliber, you understand why heavy bullets can have higher BC's.
And 2+2=5. Look at any example as I described above. For instance, a 180 SMK vs the 240. In a RUM max velocities are going to be around 3350 for the 180 and 2950 for the 240. Even at 1000 yds, the 180 still has the 240 beat in time of flight and of course, drop. But it has about 32% more wind drift. Why do you think that is?
I don't have that particular one, but I'll give Steve credit and assume you're just reading it wrong. Edit: Ah, I see Spyro posted while I was typing. | |||
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I agree for the most part with Canuk and Savage99 (and the others with similar perspective). I would take a reasonably long shot (300 yards or so) if the conditions were absolutely right. In the areas I hunt, most of the animals taken were LESS than 100 yards, some far less. The real excitement for me is seeing the animal up close and even seeing how close I can get to it before taking a shot. Occasionally the animal is so close I could hit it with a stick. To me, that's hunting. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Anybody out there see the hypocrite in this simple statement? SR hunters are okay but Texans aren't!?!? As a fair minded Texan, I refuse to condemn your home state and everyone from it because of your bad manners. Who dredged up this old topic anyway...let it die! No one is going to have their minds changed by this point... Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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yup I said it.. just to get a rise outta him... it is that simple... I have many friends who are texans.... and what... you're pissed at me cause it did say it.. who the hell cares... I am so freakng tired of so many self righteous assholes condeming anything they cannot fully understand, or their self appointed judicious empowerment over the hunting rules and regulations of any state in the constitution.... you are right no one will ever change their views or their minds.. why because so many of the so called super hunters on here think their opinion is the only opinion... or if it didn't happen in my camp it ain't right... this shit happens on so many boards... it you dont' agree with it quit posting to it... go live in your minute of pie plate world and be happy.... no I do not agree that anyone should make it harder or more risky... but I do agree with the LR hunter who has the wherewithall to insure that he has the skills to make a long shot if the situation arises... ya know what get over yourselves... your way ain't the only way and cause you think it is .. doesn't mean it is the only right way.... I'm outta here but nevertheless still watching... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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Ric, You blowhard, read your own posts. Think about it a bit. 400 yards is a good distance and if you are so poor a hunter to get that close then you ought to quit. By the way I was born in Idaho and lived most of my life in Wyoming. I have seen a lot of dipshits take the first shot "to get the range" and I have helped them recover the animals that were lucky enough to be hit hard enough after 3-10 shots. I have noticed also that most bullets if not all will not expand much at ranges much past 500 yards. What you preach is so unsportsmanlike and irresponsible as to defy any attempt at justification. I have also noticed a lot of elk don't show any reaction to a hit other than stepping into the timber, are you on your way to look for blood, I doubt it. If you actually think you can figure Wyomings wind even out to 400 yards every time then you should lower your dose of prosac and lock yourself into a padded room. I will take shots as far as 400 yards but prefer 350 or less and this is not short range boy. I just have to add you to the list of loudmouth wacko's that seem to group up in Wyoming. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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400 yards is a chip shot...no matter what the wind is... get back to me when you actually have somthing challenging... I have never lost an animal... and never intend too... matter of fact none of the animals I've shot ever went more than a few steps... sucks when someone is beter at somthing than you... enjoy Texas... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ric Horst: I am so freakng tired of so many self righteous assholes condeming anything they cannot fully understand, or their self appointed judicious empowerment over the hunting rules and regulations of any state in the constitution.... you are right no one will ever change their views or their minds.. why because so many of the so called super hunters on here think their opinion is the only opinion...[\QUOTE] Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... Takes 2 to argue, remember? For the record, I could care less about the range, if you can hit with VERY high probability on EVERY shot AND have enough velocity for the bullet to do its work. The point being made is that WAY too many doing this, as illustrated previously, CAN'T! If you can, bully for you. We are just calling the slobs that can't what they are. If you can't understand that, well, that is YOUR problem, not the forum member's problem. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Both sides of this argument are right and both sides can be considered wrong. Time for this one to die and go away Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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regardless of his self-professed ability to hit a target at 1/2 mile, this kid is a tool pure and simple, and is EXACTLY the type who gives hunters' a bad name. Gee, I long for the day when I can FINALLY draw a Desert Sheep tag, after which I will promptly blow off one it's limbs at 1/3 mile, my true dream hunt; a hunter?? I think not... Regards, Craig Nolan Best Regards, Craig Nolan | |||
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If I want accolades from my peers about my shooting skills, I'll do it in competition. Too many good shooters want to see how far they can kill game, many times after wounding it, at extreme distance. The types that carry Sharpies & a camera have their web sites to go to for props. BTW, you'll find they have no stomach for honest debate but immediately jump to name calling etc. It seems to be a manhood, "mine is bigger than yours" thing, I don't know, kind of sad we can't all just get along.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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CDH, I think you've missed my point... I have shot most of my animals at 2-300 yards.... but I have the ability to go beyond 700 yards... what I don't get is.. you and your kind are so negative on the LR huting aspect you think you know what is right and what is wrong.. who is and who isn't a hunter... I DO NOT condone anyone backing up farther to get it done... but if you have the capabilities to get it done at a long range .. why shouldn't you be able to ... there is alot more to LR hunting than going out to the middle of no where and looking for the longest shot possible. and by the way I am a professional guide... so if you need to get within a few feet I can help you do that as well... I can't tel you how many piss poor excuses for hunters I have helped harvest very nice Wyoming Game animals... To many over weight pencil pushing soft hands who are "wanna be " hunters just so they can brag to their CEO butt buddies at the next golf outting... so if you want to compare numbers of assholes.... LR to SH hunters I can without question prove to you the SR hunteres can win that one hands down... sheer number will tell you that... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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I just don’t understand why anyone would want to drag the "migrant workers" into this otherwise totally worthless thread. Probably some folks trying to figure out the migrant worker connection due to their lack of Fork Time, so for you Rookie Eaters, here is the connection: My favorite breakfast is a simple one that perhaps some of you also enjoy. I like to start off by frying up a 2-3# pack of Venison Cube Steak, make some good old milk gravy to go with it, hot biscuits, half a dozen large eggs, sliced tomatoes, grits and hash browns. Finish it off with Sorghum Molasses and more of the biscuits. Happened to notice after a few decades of this that I’d managed to grow into the “Man Size†clothes. Lots of Venison Fork Time by then, but we all know Venison isn’t fattening. Had to do a serious study on the entire meal and in the end decided it had to be the sliced tomatoes. So, there you go. If it wasn’t for the migrant workers keeping the larder stoked with tomatoes, there would obviously be a lot less weight for Hunters to tote around, and for Ric to cry and whine about. Makes as much sense as 95% of this entire thread. … As far as the Long vs. Short - if it is Legal, if the guy taking the shot has spent time actually gaining “Trigger Time†experience by shooting at that distance, and if he is ethical enough to follow-up on a shot – I’m all for it. The actual distance of the shot has little to do with it. Put too many folks in Short Distance Stands and have seen the results of their poor shooting ending up crippling Game, for people to give the impression that it ONLY HAPPENS to the guys shooting at Long Distance. | |||
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some one is actually catching on... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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...and you missed mine, so we're even. Like I said, if one has the ability, fine, but toooo many don't and just want to be able to brag, so they go waaaay beyond their ability. Like I said, if you can't hit a fatal shot with very high % on the first HIT, it is too far. I don't care if that is 150 yards or 1500, one has to stay within their limitations. Simple enough? If that is condemnation or ragging, sorry, it is just MHO and worth about the same as yours. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Other than (IMHO) lowering the 150yd to 15yd, I think you have summed it up quite well. Unfortunatly I know a few "hunters" that can't score a fatal hit at even 15yd a high percentage of the time. | |||
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I agree with Ric H. that 400 yards is a chip shot. I shoot at that range every time I practice to foul the bores of my rifles (well, sometimes I skip at shoot longer). I always shoot sitting with a sling at that range. The wind does not bother me unless it blows so hard it is hard to hold steady (which is about 13-15 mph or harder). On the other hand, there is a limit. Like it or not, when a bullet blows 5 inches in a 1 mph wind, you simply can't expect to park 90% of your shots in a ten inch vital area. Anyone thinks a 1500 yard shot is doable 90% of the time is on drugs - a 240 gr .308 MK at 3000 fps drifts over 5 inches per one mile of wind at 1100 yards is 7.76 inches - now how are you going to connect? I can hold an anemometer in the wind and just watch the change 1/2 mph with one second. The time of flight of the above MK is over 1.5 seconds - enough time for any wind to change. | |||
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During elk, mule deer and antelope seasons in Wyoming a 13-15 mph breeze will have residents falling over due to lack of wind pressure to hold em up. Wind velocity is normally over 20 mph and commonly reaches 40 mph gusts and more, this is plenty to move your body much less your bullet. Sure 400 yard shots with no wind are chip shots. Lets say your shooting over a huge sage flat and your animal drops at the shot. By the time you come down out of recoil how hard is it going to be to find your animal in the flat that looks identical in it's entirety that no longer has the animal to focus on. Why does hic rorst ignore the problem concerning bullet performance, ability to tell if you made a good hit, dificulty in finding exactly where the animal was standig when shot at, The edge the animal has on escaping when shot at long range even if it only makes it a couple of hundred yards? It's because he is a BLOWHARD! Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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[QUOTE] . I just have to add you to the list of loudmouth wacko's that seem to group up in Wyoming. [QUOTE] During elk, mule deer and antelope seasons in Wyoming a 13-15 mph breeze will have residents falling over due to lack of wind pressure to hold em up. Wind velocity is normally over 20 mph and commonly reaches 40 mph gusts and more, this is plenty to move your body much less your bullet. Sure 400 yard shots with no wind are chip shots. Lets say your shooting over a huge sage flat and your animal drops at the shot. By the time you come down out of recoil how hard is it going to be to find your animal in the flat that looks identical in it's entirety that no longer has the animal to focus on. Why does hic rorst ignore the problem concerning bullet performance, ability to tell if you made a good hit, dificulty in finding exactly where the animal was standig when shot at, The edge the animal has on escaping when shot at long range even if it only makes it a couple of hundred yards? It's because he is a BLOWHARD Loud mouth whacko's? Blowhards? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Grew up in Wy. damn I am glad you moved! 40 mile an hour winds? And grew up in Wy. The wind rarely if ever blows in the Big Horn Basin, southern Wy. yes, almost every day. 400 yds. long range? In Iowa or Texas yes, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, it's a chip shot! Ricky, methinks you can't judge distance for shit! | |||
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Please enlighten me as to exactly what range none of these things can be a problem. Those are all potential problems that all hunters should be aware of--regardless of distance. Bullet performance? If shooting a .308 with a heavy A-Frame, Failsafe, etc, I would worry about lack of expansion at a fraction of the distance it could become a problem for the load I use. Please tell me exactly what you see about that recovered Accubond by the star of this thread that makes you think it failed in some way. Seeing if you made a good hit? Finding where the animal was standing? Recovering the animal? Do you ever hunt in the brush? All these things have posed more difficulty for me in thick cover and close range than they ever have in the wide open spaces. A 100 yd sprint after the shot is no big deal out where there's nowhere for him to hide within 100 yds. But a 100 yd death-sprint through the brush where he can disappear quickly after the shot can make an animal very difficult to find. So what's that magical distance below which none of us ever have to worry about any of these things? Because your implication is that one exists. | |||
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This is my other point .... soooo many people on this board think they know so much about everything... 13-15 mph blows PEOPLE over .. common you're kidding right.... lack of wind pressure... wtf are you talking about... I have never seen anyone blown over by wind ... that is just ludacris... it is usually windy in WY but 40mph is NOT common.... and even if it was any repsonsible hunter would know his rifles performance in those conditions.... the other thing is... I know where every animal was standing during EACH AND EVERY SHOT.... why because out here you are pretty assnine to hunt alone... I typically have a hunting partner especially if plan on shooting anything at distance... we NEVER pull the trigger until we have ALL the data we need... as far as bullet prefromance... again, most of the guys on here have no clue on bullet perfromance... 90% of theri so called hunting bullets perfrom less than acceptable in relation to the mighty matchking... as a professional guide I have seen just about EVERY well know hunting bullet fail!!! Yet the ingnorant tv hunting show/magazine whores will believe anything they read.... ignorant fools... I know my stuff works.. why 'cause I tested it myself.... so many come on these boards armed with media, consumer fluff... and "rickt300" just proved it!! Your feaking head would explode if you knew what capable LR hunters were actually peforming with unbelievable precision! I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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But not you, Ric. You don't believe it when Sierra tells you not to use their "mighty matchkings" on big game animals. Why is that? Because being a professional guide from Wy, you know more and have more in-field experience than all the Sierra folks combined? Any 820 yard shot at a cow elk is a STUNT. It's not hunting; it's artillary practice. How many bullets didn't make one-shot kills? The misses are kept quiet; this is the Internet after all. Only the glorious hits are digitally captured so all the other LongDistanceHunters may genuflect. Sorry, I just don't buy it. How you go about harvesting a game animal may be legal in the eyes of the game commision but it's not conscientious in my book. You will get no validation for your deed from this ShortDistanceHunter. An analogy: I'm sure everyone has seen those posed pics of a "big game fisherman" and his record book 1000 pound giant bluefin tuna caught on 2 pound test monifilament. But what about the hundreds of similar fish that are swimming around the world's oceans with thousands of yards of that same mono trailing behind because that fairy thread broke at the reel before the trophy could be boated? It never happens, if all the LongDistanceHunters are to be believed. You know. One shot, one kill. Everytime. Even at 820 yards and beyond. Because they are so skillful at their sport. It's obviously also a sport where the phrase, "Shit happens" is unheard of. | |||
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onefun, why do you think sierra says that? could it be for leagal reasons as in liability... see in manufacturing if you manufacture for a specific purpose and your product is used for another purpose if you do not have a disclaimer you are liable... it is all because of lawyers.... I have never claimed to me more experienced or better at anything... can I hold my own and am I confident .. you bet! I have numerous amounts of data collected over the past 10 years.. and what you think you know or have read isn't always what works... it is what they want you to purchase... do you believe everything your local paper tells you or your polititian.. hell we all know they have an agenda too.... well so does every hunting manufacturer... my philosophy is try it for yourself.... then make your own determination... I need NO validation from you and I grew up not far from where you are... I know the selfproclaimed "I'm a PA deer hunter" mentality... the " i gotta get the biggest damn magnum" brown and down therories... how many of those boys have shot and emptied their rifles at the deer running through the woods after you late morning guys have put on a drive... how many have connected on the first shot only to have that deer run to the next county and die...why, cause he was so pumped up on adrenalin and running full tilt as it was.. but yet you SH ranges guy see no wrong doing in that because, hell thats just hunting... someone will tag it... what you fail to realize is a big bunch of boys in the north central part of PA have been using MK's to harvest deer from way far away for years and years... me personally .. I have harvested deer from 10 feet and beyond... so up close and personal is somthing I am familiar with too... There was a study done by one individual on here where he cut in half many of your popular hunting bullets and a MK.. and truth be known the Mk was by far better constructed then many if not all of the "hunting" bullets... and just so you know... "shit happens" is not a phrase ANY of my groups of friends uses... ever.. we have never lost an animal and never intend too... you have this miscnception that we just don't care about anyting but throwing lead... well there pal... that simply is just not the case... you may have called me a hypocrite but you guys seem to be overlooking yourselves... fire away... this is fun.... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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Hmmmmm...legal reasons?...liability?...do you think Sierra is worried that a wounded elk will sue them? Your reasoning is so contrary to nature, reason, or common sense as to be laughable. I won't continue a conversation with someone of your ilk, flinging incoherent sweeping generalities in every direction when you can't defend your actions in a meaningful way. I'm going to back up now. Way, way back. So your parting shot will be sure to hit its mark. Adieu. | |||
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OneFuzzyNut Sierra sells the Matchking to the military, who uses them in sniping weapons. Ever hear of the Hague convention? Matchkings are not advertised/sold as expanding bullets for this reason. Softer lead cores and thinner jackets than "normal" hunting bullets means they'll do what when they hit? Patriculary at lower than "normal" velocities? | |||
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No one really 'intends to' lose an animal, but to say you and all your buddies are perfect is laughable arrogance. Everyone is a beginner sometime...and 'feces DO occur', even to you and your friends. It may not even be the shooter (as much as the odds profess otherwise) but scopes come loose, barrels get moisture in them, animals spook and jump for no reason we can detect, bullets have QC issues, etc. We still rely on mechanical items in the field, and mechanical things break! We all strive to minimize them, but: Simple fact...if the probability of something happening is ANYTHING other than ZERO, it is not a question of IF, but a question of WHEN. You may be good enough to do at 800 what others can do at 200, but even great shooters at 200 lose animals. All this assumes that they actually spend time hunting...some people shoot once, call it quits, and can brag about batting 1.000 for the rest of their life...  I'm done trying to reason here...happy shooting! Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Yeah Dave back way up..... if you don't see what I mean it is pointless... I can defend my actions in meaniingful ways if you so choose.. but look at what I am up against... tunnel vision.... one sidedness... CDH .. me perfect no hardly .. ever lose an animal no I havn't I make sure of it... way back when I was 20 or so... I had wounded and deer.... I tracked that deer for 3 days and never found it... why .. because I practiced what most of the so called SR hunters accept... I promised myself that it would never happen again and it hasn't ... that was 18 years ago.... and sonce then YES I have been perfect! I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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There is a gun builder in Thermopolis Wy. that custom builds rifles and ammunition all matched. With the rifle you get a wind gauge, a scope matched to the load, on the scope is laser etched ballistics. He has video of one shot kills in excess of 1000 yds. on elk, deer, and antelope. He and his son also entered a military and police sniper competition in Iowa a few years back and took second. Just as advertisement for his rifles. I have never shot one but have watched the video. Very impressive. It is not my cup of tea but his business and his choice. | |||
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so now it is not only ethical to shoot animals at half a mile and blow their legs off, it is also preferred that you use SMKs when you do it? what next? a b-b gun at a mile with those little pointed pellets? maybe you could hit something in the eyes, and blind it until you can put one up the kazoo for a THS...... oh yeah, ethical AND smart!  | |||
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hey tasu..whatever the hell your name is... what other bullet would you use....MK's do it all.... LOL... so much old school ingnorance here....unbelievable.... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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from www.sierrabullets.com:
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Well, it's true confession time. I argued most of the points that have been brought up here (and a few more) by the anti-LR crowd several years back with most of the same LR hunters who are posting in this thread on another site. After thinking about it for quite a while, and becoming fairly well acquainted electronically with Dave King, I have changed my mind. It is a legitimate and challenging form of hunting that takes more skill, more time, and more money than the vast majority of "normal" hunters are willing to invest in their sport. And, I include many of the "antis" in this thread in that category. Most of the dedicated LR hunters shoot more in a year than most of the "normal" hunters do in a lifetime. They know their shit, to use the vernacular. Why would anyone use a bow when he could use a rifle? He does it for the challenge. It is exactly the same reason the LR guys do what they do. And I am absolutely certain that the LR guys lose less wounded animals than bowhunters. Should we condemn bowhunters for taking up a subset of the sport of hunting for which there is no doubt that it produces more wounded critters than any other on a per capita basis? I think not. Nor should we condemn someone else's choice of hunting style. Finally, I have shot and killed several hogs and deer with 168gr SMKs. There is NO QUESTION that a 168gr or larger MK thru the ribs will kill any deer or elk, for that matter, that ever walked. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete idiot. The habit that some in here have of attempting to argue REALITY with people who use and have used MKs to take hundreds of game animals is the height of stupidity. They pick their conditions and they pick their shots. If anything is not right, they pass. I suggest some of the "antis" in here should pass as well. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Apparently you haven't looked up the BC's of the bullets he mentioned. When you understand that BC is proportional to sectional density which is proportional to weight in a given caliber, you understand why heavy bullets can have higher BC's.
And 2+2=5. Look at any example as I described above. For instance, a 180 SMK vs the 240. In a RUM max velocities are going to be around 3350 for the 180 and 2950 for the 240. Even at 1000 yds, the 180 still has the 240 beat in time of flight and of course, drop. But it has about 32% more wind drift. Why do you think that is?
I don't have that particular one, but I'll give Steve credit and assume you're just reading it wrong. [/QUOTE}
Jon A, I found the source of what you referred to as my “completely incorrect" information. After reading it again, it appears what I said concerning bullet lag is correct as written in the article. I had the wrong source. I read so many articles about firearms and ballistics, it is hard to keep them straight. I apologize for the mix-up. The source of the “completely incorrect" information was the June/July 2003 issue of North American Hunter Magazine, not the new Hornady Loading Manual. In the article, Wayne VanZwoll was quoting Dave Emary at Hornady about what makes bullets work (not Steve Hornady, my mistake). From the article “What To Believe About Bullets†by Wayne VanZwoll, North American Hunter Magazine, June/July 2003, page 67 I didn’t see BC mentioned anywhere, just LAG. The article does mention BC in other places, but not here. Hmmmm? Now you can call me an idiot or whatever you feel like for believing what I read, but I’m fairly certain Dave and Wayne know more than I do and at least as much, if not more than you do about this topic. If you’ve got a beef with the information, you better get a hold of Wayne and Dave and set them straight. Meanwhile, I’m sticking with their published information. How many of your books and articles on ballistics, firearms and hunting have been published? How long have you been making bullets, including match-grade bullets? That’s what I thought… JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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