you guys kill me....

now we are non hunters because we are capapble of shooting accuratly much farther than "typical"

what makes you think I am not a hunter? You think I don't spend time scouting, patterning... or learning migration trails... where wallows are...staging areas.... etc...



hard to get this close by accident...

guess I just got lucky....

This is amazing, the SR shooters want to quote Boddington, who is noted for only using the extreme large bore guns that not 1 in 25 other shooters can manage, but because "another gun writer" wrote about them they just have to have one. What kind of example is that? Great one according to the SR run and gun shooters.

He cannot figure out how to determine an accurate drop chart with real bullet BC, fps, (ie that means not out of a book, but actual figures) and exact scope clicks so everyone else is as stupid as he is on LR scopes and incable of shooting LR. Hint guys, 1/4 MOA clicks routinely work out to be not that, but another figure that is routinely different from scope to scope from the same mftr and they are not 1/4 inch either.

The "assumption' that LR bullets do not expand because, guess what, another "gun writer" wrote a story about it and that makes it gospel.

So far we have people making arguements about something that they know nothing about, only "assumptions" and we all know what assumptions often makes you.

You assume again that all LR shooters shoot the stupid scenarios Boddington (the gun writer) wrote about, are the way it is done and the people doing it are just as ignorant as him about LR equipment and techniques.

Bottom line, you do not have to agree to do it, but for you to assume that it is unethical because it somehow does not pass your personal test is condescending and indicative of what is wrong with hunting.

We have too many people harping "If you do not do it my way, then you are wrong/unethical etc".

Same arguements with traditional vs compounds, flint vs caps, traditional vs inlines, open sights vs scopes, dogs vs no dogs, stalking only vs stands etc.

Live and learn, accept what the other person does with success and safety.

BH

I am not all that religeous.. but AMEN

I said I was done with this thread but I have one more thing to add. Check the link out.
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/TacticalFroggyA1.html

But I suppose this guy is lucky to.

What continuosly amazes me is the fact that a LR shooter, crow baiter, etc., will come here, speak his/her piece & then be surprised, even angry that others disagree. If you go to the LR site & say anything negative about LR hunting, you risk being banned, there is an open minded bunch. As I said, not my style of hunting, but then again I have different ethics about alot of things. If you don't want a dissenting opinion, then don't post at a site where you KNOW someone will disagree or post on a site where 99% agree w/ you.

Ric, you picture proves nothing. I saw a full curl ram standing in the middle of a paved road 2 weeks ago.

Doggy...,
Ok you're right... this time of the year they are in the valleys... guess I shoulda mentioned it was taken in Sept... no big deal... hey you win.. you made me look like I was lying to prove a point...now that should really throw some negative light on my words....


Fred.... not upset that you guys can't seem to grasp the idea.. it is literally the "old school" guys who bash the sport yet will willfully welcome with open arms almost similar scenerio's and situations in other types of hunting. Most of you are just to closed mind to see it.. mostly because is is new to you or you are unfamiliar with it..

Bowhunters take almost exaclty the same risks... have almost the same methods of stand placement etc. Yet that is hunting.. why.. because it is done in ft. instead of 100's or yards...

Freddy.. you mentione for US LR hunters not to post here, yet it was one of you closed minded super hunters that started this thread...

truth is... LR takes dedication, practice, money and time... so does SH hunting...the problem is SR hunters don't understand the sport of LR hunting and it is much easier to be negative than positive and it is also hunman nature to denounce or degrade that which is different ot that which you do not understand...

You're right "Ricky", it was someone here who started this. I even responded to GG on longrange rifle because he said I bashed him on his shooting, he didn't read my post. Ulta LR hunting just isn't my style, neither is bow hunting or shooting @ running game, etc. I've passed up many shots that I didn't feel 99% sure of making a KILLING shot, and yes, that means I have gone home empty.
The problem w/ even trying to justify such a long range shot on a site like this, is the truly non proficient hunter may think "hey this guy shoots @ 800yds w/ his .300shootasfarasyoucan magnum, so can I & then wounds the animal. For me, a wounded animal is a f-----up hunt, especially if I put myself in that bad situation. Face it, shooting @ ultra longrange on big game under any but perfect conditions is asking for a wounded animal. I "play" on steel targets, but I want to get as close as I can to the flesh & blood ones. I can see the challenge of longrange varminting, most any hit is quickly fatal, but blow an elks leg off & it may go alooong way to suffer & die later than sooner (JMHO).

Rick Horst,
As a wildlife Bio, I was involved in culls of large numbers caribou. I think it is un-gentlemen like and meaningless to start throwing numbers around of who killed how much game. So....I will refrain from doing that. I do not judge a hunter by the large number of kills he has to his name, but amongst others by what skills he displays to outwit an animal on its own turf, by what means he obtains his animal and by what respect he displays towards the animal. . However watch out who you challenge on what.
Yes Rick I do have proof that most bullets like WW powerpoints, Hornady interlocks and Remington core-locks around that 1800 fps speed or somewhat lower, do not open up with soft tissue shots and many marginally with bone hits, depending what bone gets hit..Dependable consistent expansion occurs more around that 2000-2100 fps level. I witnessed it at the caribou hunts, since each caribou got autopsied during sampling time.
A call to some of the manufacturers of bullets suitable for long range shooting will bear out the same. Barnes claims expansion at 1700 fps but if you press them hard on it they too concede that that is the absolute lowest limit and higher velocity is desirable.
The crux of all this is what so many other posters already have said and you keep ignoring is that shooting game at such extended ranges with so many unknown factors like unknown wind currants, bullets not opening up etc, you guys are taking un- ethical chances with valuable big game animals. This is not warfare against Osama-bin-elk for pete sakes.!!!! Military snipers take long shots like that and further since nothing ventured nothing gained.It is not acceptable on game in my view.
Stick to gongs on the range or thin out a prairie dog town or gopher patch.
Your argument that all your training and high tech gadgets and drop/drift tables elevate you to a level that allows you to do this is eroneous.
With your reasoning and others like you on this board there are far too many perfect long range expert shooters out there. Is the military aware of this huge reservoir of talent on this board? They may want to tap it.
And yes with deer 6 inches drift can result in a cripple depending where you aimed at.
Adress the main gist of our argument regarding the high risk of your game not whether 6 or 8 inches drift will cause a cripple, otherwise it looks you are grasping for straws.
Sorry for some of the sarcasme, do not take it too personal, this is a heated discussion where we strongly disagree.Thats all.
If I meet you on the hunting trail, I will share my lunch and coffee with you.

Shrike,

I surly hope you did not intend to tell me I have no respect for the animals I hunt. You would have no basis to say that nor any right.

quote:

Yes Rick I do have proof that most bullets like WW powerpoints, Hornady interlocks and Remington core-locks around that 1800 fps speed or somewhat lower, do not open up with soft tissue shots and many marginally with bone hits, depending what bone gets hit..

I agree... those bullets are pittyful for expansion... Maybe I missunderstood you first comment. The typical hunting bullet is aweful for reliable expansion.
This is exaclty why LR hunters typically use the SMK or similar bullet.

SMK's have been proven to be reliable at nearly any speed....

quote:

The crux of all this is what so many other posters already have said and you keep ignoring is that shooting game at such extended ranges with so many unknown factors like unknown wind currants, bullets not opening up etc, you guys are taking un- ethical chances with valuable big game animals

THe wind is more predictable than you think at times... most LR hunters won't take the long shot if the conditions are switching and unperdictable... you seem to have this image that LR hunters just go out and throw lead...
Truth be know and I mentioned this in earlier posts... show me how LR hunting is all that much different than Bow Hunting.

quote:

Your argument that all your training and high tech gadgets and drop/drift tables elevate you to a level that allows you to do this is eroneous.

Really .... and in what context of erroneous are you refering? Inccorect, invalid, mistaken? my charts and data allow me to accomplish what most SR hunters really have no idea about... half of the guys against this are satisfied with "minute of pie plate".

As far as the military wanting to tap into the shooting abilities... hey they are welcome.. but with out basic training, Ranger training, scout/sniper training I doubt very much if they would be interested. I know that several of the individuals I shoot with as well as myself would be very capapble of shooting as well as any military sniper out there. I am not bragging but I train much the way they do and have similar results. If they asked me help out tomorrow I would!

If you care to actually understand how LR hunters prepare and how the take shots on game I am willing to tell you but don't assume that all aspects of bullet drift are not factored.

As I mentioned wind is more predictable than you think. I live and hunt in wyoming it is always windy here... I understand it well...

There are risks in ALL types of hunting.... because we do it a farther distances' what make you think if things arn't right we would take a bigger risk? Oh I see because we are only worried about making that long shot.. and we are really there to just throw lead...

You may be a biologist and you seem proud of that fact and are relying on that fact to make you points more believable or valid... correct?.. I know how important the smallest details are to you guys...
2 times now you have mispelled my name....

sarcasm doen't bother me .... I don't drink coffee while hunting.. to dehydrating.. but I'll be glad to take a candy bar.. ;-)

Fred.. I don not condone or justify the LR hunter who wounds animals either... but don't begine to tell me the SR hunters don't wound animals... please feel free to attack them when they mention how they have wounded an animal...I have witnessed some pretty idiotic things that sr hunters have done...trouble is I see it over and over again, while glassing animals from affar... I have see more "hail mary" shots than I can remember... you guys say you don't take "jump shots" or "running" shots I say BS!!! I have see this time and time again...
If done correctly more often than not a vital LR hit on an animal kills quicker!

Rick, you are right again. I have seen my share of idiots in the field, the bought the gun on Fri. fired a couple of shots on Sat. & go hunting on Sun. types. Wound an animal & not bother tracking. Yeah, I rail against that type, even to the point of costing me a friend once.
I think where GG went wrong in presenting this is he tried to make it a difficult shot by looking for the longest shot he could. The crap would have really hit the rotating oscilater if he had waited for a 20mph crosswind, just to test his wind doping skills. You can see how this is surprising to the guys like me that don't like taking low percentage killing shots. I would be no less surprised if a guy came on this or any site & bragged about how he intentionally jumped a bedded pronghorn @ 75yds & then waited until he got to full speed @ 300yds & bagged "him" w/ his 2nd shot. "Yeah the first shot broke his leg but I do this all of the time, great sport". Some things just don't set right w/ me. I have taken a running shot, just once & it was delivered perfectly, but I am not about to try it as routine.
After reading GG full story on LR, yes he probably had that 98% shot in mind, and it all worked out for the best. As I originally granted him a fine shot, I just wouldn't do it. Even though I can hit steel @ that range, I wouldn't, except under extreme conditions, try shots on big game animals. Thanks for being more gracious than some. GG needs to learn to defend his position w/ alittle more maturity.

Ok heres my 2 penny worth.....I think it is total BS,long range shooting it may well be,but to kid yourself that it is hunting!! Pleeeeeze have a word with yourself.
And another thing it always seems to be you yanks for the most part that are into it.

There may well be some people (very few) who could consistantly make such shots,the problem is with all the bozo's who decide to have a go,and if the animal didn't drop to shot,would they be arsed to walk the 800 yards to check for marks....
This shite just gives shooting a bad name.

Roebuck

wow.. this board is all about agressivness and badgering...

Well roebuck.. I see you Scotts sure do have your way with words...

soooo.. there are several other from England , Austraila, all sortsa places that are into the LR hunting.. sorry to dissapoint..

well hell it could be us Yanks are just really mentally deranged and looking for somthing to boost our already to large ego's.....

I'm sure your Scottish Arse could show me a thing or 2 about hunting in general .. right....

roebucks.. aren't they samll wanna be Elk....

I realize you have your opinions.. but again.. you lump ALL of us in group.. it isn't really that way.. there are those among us that really do take the necessary precautions to do ti right....

again, should I lump all you SR hunters in one group.... what all you are are "brown and downer" or .. "shoot first check later..someones got the right tag...."

common guy .... go have a drink...

Better Fred.. I really tried my best but the whole "yank" thing... got under my skin....

Ah come on "Ricky", don't make me take back my thumbs up!

From goodgrouper at LRH:

It has come to my attention that someone on our beloved forum has tossed our pearls before the swine of another anti-longrange forum. For that, they should be terminated from LRH. The reason I joined this forum was so I didn't have to explain myself or my hunting tactics to others so they could be torn apart by the anti-long rangers (less learned).
The forum in question is accuratereloading.com

On this site, they have taken my thread out of context and called me every name in the book for my "unethical" shot.

While that is fine with me what those boneheads say, I felt some more explaining to our members was in order.

My elk hunt was not a luck or chance hunt. I am a precision long range shooter and have been for some time. I shoot targets that are 1/100 the size of elk at longer distances than 820 yards all summer long. I knew my equipment and skills down to the letter. I had chronoed my load the day before the outing, and sighted it in at long range (1000 yards) several times before the hunt. I had my angle tool, laser rangefinder, spotting scope with witnesses, drop chart, thermometer, and my own optimistic attitude at my descretion. The elk were not spooked, and offered a great target. There was absolutely no wind as the fog was settling in all around us. Even if the wind would have been blowing, I am familiar enough with reading mirage to account for drift at that range and adjust accordingly. I was absolutely certain of my abilities that day, and the thought of this shot being unethical never once crossed my mind. I KNEW I COULD MAKE THIS SHOT BEFORE I EVER SET FOOT ON THE MOUNTAIN!!
Many of you on this forum (LRH) could and have routinely made shots like this or farther, and I say that I am proud to know you! We are a select bunch, and we know that with the proper equipment and practice, almost anything is possible.

In an earlier post, I make mention of a sheep kill I made 2 years ago. I should have elaborated on this more, but my intention was to show how game animals can move out of the way of the bullet at long range so one must be patient and careful not to shoot too soon. I did not even think about how this might sound to someone reading it out of text.
The full story on that was:
It was my last day of a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, and after spending thousands of dollars and countless hours in the desert, my friend found the ram (the only ram worth taking in the whole unit) across a canyon, and in full alertness looking for ewes. Any motion or noise would have alerted the ram to our presence.
He was on a big slope which gave me a big area (about 1 mile) to watch him after the shot in case we needed to finish him. Under the circumstances, I knew I could make the shot, and indeed, I think those shots are more challenging, thus making it more fun.
Again, I had several spotters on spotting scopes to help me, and I had my drop charts, rangefinder, and a Varmint Rest. Once I put my gun in this rest, I felt absolutely comfortable with the shot. I KNEW I COULD DO IT. A ram is a lot bigger target than the rockchucks and prairie dogs I had been shooting for 6 months prior.
My first shot all but severed the leg, and my second shot plain missed because I hurried it a little (once in a lifetime hunts can get the adrenaline flowing) but the third shot hit home and it was lights out. The whole event took about 1 minute. So yes, the ram may have felt pain for one minute, but it is NO WORSE than an arrow through the lungs, or being dragged down by a cougar. That is life. Pain is inevitable in life. My shots were still more efficient at killing the ram than either the arrow or cougar could ever be. That being said, I believe in bow hunting, and in a kitty getting a meal once in awhile. If how an animal checks out bothers you, don't hunt, and don't watch the discovery channel.
Anyway, the ram is being mounted, and his meat is in my freezer, and anything said in hindsight against the matter is nothing but afterthought.

OK, now I have a few words to those reading this thread from LRH to Accuratereloading Accuratereloading by the link provided you by our traitor. I want to re emphasize to our LRH readers that what I say from now on is directed to the bone head naysayers at Accuratereloadin accuratereloading g.com.

First of all, I read all the responses in your site on my hunt, and there were a few of you who were optimistic and said nice things. You kept an open mind, and are to be congratulated for that. Please bear in mind that the ass ripping that follows is not directed to you!

Nay sayers: (I will mention names. Canuck, savage99, anotherazwriter,duckster, rickt300, hikerbum, jstevens,chucknelson,kutenay,fredj338)

You have passed premature judgment on me and a whole forum of long range enthusiasts, and for that, my opinion of you is quite low. You are almost as bad as members of PETA. You're excuses for not educating yourselves are almost identical to the pathetic excuses PETA uses to ridicule anything they don't agree with. SHAME ON YOU! The worst thing hunters can do is seperate in views. We should stick together, not drive wedges between us. THAT IS WHAT ANTI-HUNTERS WANT US TO DO!!
I can not help it if I have taken shooting to a level that you're not familiar with, you should have and could have kept up! Instead, you belittle and snivel in our shadows. Sorry, It does not mean belly-button lint to me if you're mindset has not kept up with technology. My ancestors in the late 1880's were killing buffalo and elk on the great plains at 1000 meters with black powder guns and open sights! So why is it such a great fallacy to hunt the same way they did, only with much deadlier weapons! They would have loved to use the guns you have access to everyday to shoot those buffalo, and you limit them to 200 yards! WHY!?!? Get out there and learn the trade before you belittle it. YOU MIGHT JUST SURPRISE YOURSELF AT WHAT YOU CAN DO!

On the subject of killing range, many of you have mentioned how you are lethal at 300 yards or better. Now I will take the view of a radical on your side, and ask you why you don't get any closer? What if I were to tell you that you're un-ethical for taking that 300 yard shot when you should have got on your hands and knees and crawled to within what I feel is an ethical range of 35 yards? what would be your response?
I bet you'd say, "Well, I knew I could take that 300 yard shot, and I have practiced it, and my equipment was zeroed for that range so I shot". SOUND FAMILIAR?? That is what guys tell YOU who have shot farther than you've ever dreamed.

I am willing to bet that long range hunters/shooters shoot on average 50 times the amount of ammo you do annually! They practice more than just once before the deer hunt. They on average spend more money on their equipment too, which is an indirect indicator of how much more serious they are than you!


I tried to get a longer shot on my elk, but it didn't work out that way, so I settled for an 820 yard shot. Too me, the hunt is the challenge, and the challenge is the hunt, so I try to make it fun for myself and the friends I bring along. I DO NOT HAVE AS MUCH FUN shooting an elk at 200 yards with an overpowered, scoped, modern rifle. THERE IS NO CHALLENGE IN THAT FOR ME!!!!

My elk was dead in her sleep, and that is about as good as dying can get. Like Ted Nugent says,"you have to kill it before you can grill it!" I did not wound any other elk on my hunt, and I hit the elk that I was aiming at. There was no flock shooting!! I also did not post this picture to brag, of course, you would have known that if you had the balls to register at LRH. I posted the picture to show how the Nosler Accubond works well at long range. It was taken out of text on your pathetic site.

Oh, and for the guy that said I've lost it for bringing a posterboard and a sharpie on my hunt, I will tell you that the so called "poster board" is actually the back of my drop chart, and yes, I do bring my sharpie along because I have gotten used to doing that for the Varmint Hunters Association. I was not the first one to think of this!

OK. I've spoken my peace for now. I will make sure that I shoot some more long range animals at even longer ranges so I can post them on your site to piss you naysayers off some more.
Thanks.

Dave,

can't blame you a bit for sticking up for yourself... but get used to it.. anywhere outside of LRH the ... ignorant to what can be accomplished seem to come from everywhere.. keep in mind most of them.. are good guys someway, somehow but are misguided and denounce what they do not understand or could not accomplish....


Freddy.... I fixed what I could above... I'm trying man I'm trying... but it is realy hard to be good.. when idiots scream....

Way to go "Ricky", I understand the yank thing. I'll take criticism from the Brits, but never from the "Frogs"!
While I do admire the skill required to make the shot, it's just not my style. I like to be as close as I can, but then I don't like bow hunting either.
This will never be solved here or on any other forum. It's not necessarily ignorance, just whatever way you've been taught. I think GG should avoid the name calling & just expalin his position, try to educate not isolate. I'll tell you though, I stopped "bragging" about my best shots along time ago, age brings wisdom. I used to shoot alot of handgun met. sil. & people who don't know handguns think they are only good for short range CQB type distances. Tell them you routinely hit a 16"sq piece of steel @ 200m w/ open sights & you get alot of "those" looks.

ya know "Freddy" for a Cali guy you arn't all that bad...
I think we ight actually be able to get along over a beer without flexing muscles.....

I admit all my rifel are tactical buy nature and I look kinda like some freak of the malitia when I go to the range here in Cody .. I usually try to go at first light as not to draw alot of attention.. because I often get.. what kinda gun is that and are you black ops.. yadda yadda yadda.. I'm there to shoot bullets not he $hit... ya know....
so one day this guy has a group of buddies wihth him I pull up get set up ... guy start running his mouth he has the lattestgreatestearsplittenloudenboomer on the bench all showing off.... and they all break out in laughter.. looking at me.. well I an't one to accept being the brunt of a joke unless your my buddies.. so I look over that way and I get a smirk from the "tough" with his buddies... I politely say Is there a problem? ok..ok a few 4 letter words... and the tough guy says hey sniper boy can you shoot that rifle... i again politely say you wanna find out.... he says I'll hit that steel at 550 yards if you can... I say go first.... he does and he hits it... they all laugh high 5 and stuff...
so lay down... and say I changed my mind.. so they all get all loud and high 5 again... then I fired around .. bang........... ding (MORE LIKE A WHACK ).....
Man, that was cool.....
I shot at the 1150 yard one instead....

since then though .. your right Fred... I just keep my mouth shut and mind my own business ,,, shoot and go home.....

but then I come here and get all kinds a crap..... whats wrong with that picture... I must be nuts I guess....

later boys.... LR hunting is really more of a challenge and involves more hunting than you think...

Sad thing Ric, cody is filling up with those types and it makes me sick every time I go up there and go to Rocky Mountain Sports, or the store down town. Everyone has to toot there own horn and put people down for thier method of hunting or shooting. And so many have a southern accent! Go figure! Sad state of affairs, hunters attacking hunters, hunters supporting large numbers of preditors! What the hell is the world coming to?

Bob Milek, Elmer Keith,Jack O'Conner, all rolling over in thier graves.

By the way, nice sheep photo! Whether it was taken from horse back, car window, in the middle of the highway in Greenie land, or naked standing on your head in the snow!

Like we say, "Your in Wyoming now, we don't give a damn how you did it back home!"

Yeah alot of differnt types moving in .. the "dot" com revolution work from home....
A LOT of Texans... here.... not that all of TX is bad ( please don't read it that way for Christs sake! ) but Cody has seemed to get it's share of I'm better than you, can do it better than you Texans... not sure why....

That Photo was Taken up on Clock Tower this Sept. Not sure if you remember that early snow we had or not...I knew the Sheep would be easy to spot ....


We often say in a jokingly way to our Guests..

"Welcome to Wyoming.. we don't give a $hit how ya did things back home"..

deep down.. we're sorta serious....

Been following this thread with some interest. I started a thread here earlier this winter asking what is long range. It went quite a while before turning into a pissing match. Seems those who can't shoot beyond point blank range can't believe anyone else can either. I'll close by saying that if you like the way it's done at home, why didn't you stay there?

Evidently the opinion of this immature braggart is supposed to be a matter of importance to me and to some of the other posters on this forum. All I can say is that if I knew his identity, I would contact officials in the B.C. Gov't. to ensure that he can never obtain a 'non-resident alien" hunting licence here, this would protect B.C. from his type of "hunter".

Thanks "Ricky", I live here in Kalif. because of my job, but my heart is really in Montana. I try to get up every year to hunt, someday, soon I hope, I'll move up there & never look back.
BTW, I only get unreasonable when someone pisses on my leg like GG did on the LR site. His BS about me "having it both ways" & take a stand like a man", I think the guy has taken too many blows to the head or just can't read. It never pays to get in a battle of wits when the other guy forgot to bring his ammo?!

Ric:

To answer your questions...

I have 3 custom RUMs, a custom 7 STW, and a tricked up .300 SAUM that I shoot at long range.

With any of these guns I can keep my shots will under MOA shooting from a bipod.

My competitive experience is over the course service rifle.

My point about the wind is this: there is no bullet made that doesn't drift at least 5 inches at 1000 yards in a one mile per wind. At 1500 yards, which some guys think is ethical, the drift is horrendous.

I can stand in the desert all day and watch the wind go from 1-2-1-4-2-3 mph almost as fast as I type these lines. At some point the wind makes it impossible to connect.

Look, my original offer was for me to fly one of you guys out to AZ on my nickel. If you can really connect on a 10 inch target nine of ten times, I want to see it.

Trivia question: how do you compensate for different angles at long range? Any LR hunters have the answer?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
...and write about you in The VARMINT HUNTER. I win, you pay for the ticket. I will win either way, cuz i get a story out of it.

If none of us puts 9 of ten in a 10 inch target, we both lose, and the shooter buys the ticket. I still write the story.

AAW-

Varmint Hunter magazine... Isn't that the group that has a "500 yard club", a "1000 yard club", a "2000 yard club", etc?

Where guys INTENTIONALLY try to make long shots, sometimes by driving away from a prairie dog town, a groundhog hole, etc?

Where they will give you a patch to show off to anyone else that wants to listen about the shot that put you in the 1000 yard club?

Where guys take Sharpies and pat themselves on the back in the picture holding up a sign of 945 Yards over a prairie dog body?

Where you're a damn hero if you shoot long range?

So, is it OK with you that you draw a paycheck from an organization that LIVES for this kind of stuff??

well AZ dude....

I ain't coming to AZ... I'm not the one who brags alot about traveling...

yep the wind does change a bit out west... but you seem to think it is the same across the entire distance.. not so... your biggest change in POI will be wind near your position...

enough said I'm done with your challenge...

to answer your trick question...

Cosign Angle Indicator.. developed by a military guy....attaches to the base of my rifle is about the size of a quarter..

works everytime... for as far as you can see....

Yes, VHM does have those. And I have shot at PDs longer than 500 yards, which is a harder shot than at an elk. Do I have a problem shooting at a PD at 1000 yards? No. I actually don't have a problem with anyone shooting at any game animal as long as they can hit the vitals 90% of the time. We do hold game animals in a different light; we don't trap them like varmints, for example. And a shot to the guts of a PD kills it; on an elk it does not. We as hunters tolerate misses on varmints that we don't find palatable on game animals.

And the money I make from writing is play money; I make my livelihood from doing other things.

Ric: I was not bragging about traveling. I simply said I am not traveling to another state when I travel like I do. If I traveled to Wyoming, I might take you up on a vist, but I don't travel there.

My trick question involves time of flight.

My "challenge" involved the often heard "you are just jealous because you can't do it" line. So I simply wanted to see. If there are guys out there who can hit game animals under a variety of conditions from 800 to 1000 yards, I would like to see it. I might even learn something. But I guess no one is game.

I personally find long range shooting very fascinating, but with a few twists. I don't shoot prone, I shoot sitting. But from sitting I do quite well, esp if I shoot with a bipod. Prone is pretty useless for most hunting, unless you are setting up over a an area and watching it. It is never used in Africa.

I personally would rather be able to hit an animal at 600 yards shooting sitting with nothing more than sling and a standard weight rifle than prone at 800. I am more interested in the animal than the length of the shot.

Last week I shot a .338 Win Mag sitting at 700 yards. I shot a three shot group that measured less than 4 inches. Now I know the .338 is not a barnburner, but that group leaves me only 3 inches of slop on either side (10-4=6, 6/2=3) for wind error. 3 inches of error is less than 1mph of wind speed. So what if i shot prone? Suppose I shot a group 2 inches. My error for wind does not change dramatically.

Anyway, I am going shooting.

Well if you are in town look me up we can go shooting.. I am no expert but I can hold my own...

Flight time... I have some theories...

you 338 group.. what range?

I'll PM you with my business web page...

look me up if you are in Cody....

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
And I have shot at PDs longer than 500 yards, which is a harder shot than at an elk.

So then an animal with a larger kill zone should be even easier.

BTW, you say "shot at". How many did you kill cleanly, versus how many you missed or gut shot??

quote:

I actually don't have a problem with anyone shooting at any game animal as long as they can hit the vitals 90% of the time.

Again, what was your percentage on the prairie dogs? Better than 90%? And is that "vitals" a quick killing shot or just anywhere on a "varmint"?

quote:

Do I have a problem shooting at a PD at 1000 yards? No.

Double standards?

quote:

And a shot to the guts of a PD kills it; on an elk it does not.

So punching a small hole thru their guts is OK with you?

Yeah, a gut shot will kill a prairie dog, but maybe only after he's drug himself down the hole & laid there for a while.

quote:

We as hunters tolerate misses on varmints that we don't find palatable on game animals.

Does that include gut shots or other "anywhere in the body" shots? Why??

Yes, we do hold different animals to different "levels", but I find it funny that a guy who condemns someone for shooting an elk, laying still in it's bed, while having the knowledge, equipment, and skill to make the shot, thinks it's just fine to bang away at "lesser" animals and let them die a lingering, gut shot, death.

Ya see the problem with "ethical" arguments or preaching "your way is wrong"?

There's no black and white. No clear dividing line. No hard and firm "right" or "wrong".

Ric Horst,

Now you really did it!!
You rely on the SMK bullet series for reliable expansion at all ranges???

May I challenge you to start this as a new thread on Big Game hunting???? Please do..

Sorry for spelling your name wrong in my last post, no hurt intended. Hope you are equal sorry for all your spelling mistakes you made in your post to me. But then this thread is not about that is it?
This could be interpreted by unkind souls as you grasping for straws once again.

You constantly refuse to acknowledge the unpredictable outcome of extreme range shots like so many posters point out to you..
Why do highly trained military snipers then miss shots regularly at those extreme ranges.????

Also my appology for offering you to share my coffee along the trail, being meant as a symbolic peace offering. Well I will keep a candy bar for you.

As a Biologist I like to go with proven data.
Through my job I have been privileged to connect and spend ample time with some of the best native hunters in Northern Canada. I have witnessed their skills and observed and participated in their failures and successes. I have witnessed brilliant shooting and know what that is too. I have learned a lot through them and my own experiences over the last 40 years.

From your writing and your signature quote I will assume for now that you actually read a lot.

I am not so sure though, that you have learned a lot yet.

I read enthusiasme and passion about your long range game shooting in your writing. Those are good qualities to have indeed. You need more learning.

Talk to you again on the proverbial hunting trail where we will meet and compare notes. We will share some candy bars and clear spring water.

Due to the fact that all of us have said all there is to say, I will discontinue posting on this subject.
I guess we should respectfully agree to disagree.

Cold Bore:

yes, we do have double standards when it comes to varmints; I won't apologize for that.

And there are risky shots that don't involve shooitng at long range, and I will admit I have taken a few myself. I am not "preaching" to anyone - it is just my opinion that at a certain range the wind drift becomes just about impossible. Can you make an 850 yard shot? Sure. I made 4 of them today. But I had an equal number of wind misses. My bullets at that range were well within a 10 inch vertical, so it wasn't my rifle or my shooting - it was the wind.

I shoot a lot at 700 yards. I can honestly say that I can keep my bullets inside a vertical 10 inch area all day long, even shooting sitting with a sling. All of my misses of late are due to the wind. Today, at 700 yards, I didn't miss at all. The wind varied from 1.5-4 mph.

You may notice I didn't take Dakor to task when he said he could keep all of his bullets inside a ten inch cirlce at 500 yards in a 10 mph wind. I believe he can. He lives in ND, so he has plently of places to practice. And just from my own experience, that kind of shot is not that tough. At 500 yards, if you can keep all of your bullets within one moa (not that tough), you have a 3 mph wind error before any bullet drifts out of the vital area.

At 800 yards, you have to get it perfect. If you can still hold 1 moa in the field, again, not that difficult, you only have one inch to play with, which means you risk a miss if the wind changes only 1/3 of one mile per hour.

We all have to make our own moral choices in life; I chnose not to shoot at animals at 800 yards. I would actually take a shot at an animal at 600 sitting with a sling, with no other rest. But beyond that, the wind is so fickle it is just too risky.

In Africa, if you wound, you pay and you could lose your quota. The longest shot I have ever taken in Africa was on a wildebeeste at 308 yards, shooting standing off the sticks (those sticks are pretty steady). I didn't even think about missing.

Shrike,

Hmm... well I ain't old and I ain't young and this isn't my first Rodeo...

SMK's don't care what undeucated hunters think.. I use them my buddies use them.. several aquaintences use them.. truth is THEY JUST PLAIN work... get used to it, belive it deal with it...

Snipers miss at longer ranges because they use standard ( military ) productiion ammo and their rifles are only required to hold MOA .. the rifles I use and most of my aqauintences use are sub .5" moa...

Yes I read alot.. but I do not typically learn from reading..( firearms related ) I typically read then do things for myself to see what works and what doesn't

the stuff I talk about and relate to these boards .. Is stuff I have done and have proof of... no guess work...

have I learned alot.. you bet ya just guys like you don't want to accept my results...

see ya on the trail.. I'll be the one you won't see watching from afar... ;-)

Listed with great company and I even am in agreement with AnotherAZWriter. Your constant argument for shootin big game animals in excess of 500 yards is still baseless, arrogant, unethical and will not change the minds of reasonable people on your list.

"On my desert sheep hunt 2 years ago, I shot my ram first shot at 760 yards, but it just blew it's leg off. Then it started coming closer. At 650 yards, I got impatient and fired again while he was still walking towards me. I saw the bullet impact exactly were his chest would have been, but he walked right out of the way. Luckily, he stopped at 630 and looked behind him at the dust. The third shot drilled him square in the shoulder blade and he dropped like Rosie o'Donnells ratings!"

^^The above quote from this hunter on that LRH forum makes me sad. It's sad to me that someone could have such disrespect for the animals they hunt.

I feel there's only one issue in this thread that matters, and it's a simple one. Our duty as hunters is to take an animal as cleanly and humanely as possible. What should we do to accomplish this? We should always use good equipment. We should always make sure we have a good shot before taking it. We should follow every shot whether or not we think it's a miss. We should train and hone our skills, not just for our pleasure but out of respect for the animal we will be hunting. In short our duty is to diminish risk as much as humanly possibly while hunting.

What did this guy do? He intentionally increased his range to target which in turn increased exponentially the risk of injuring and possibly losing the animal. This is fundamentally unethical if you possess the above-mentioned set of values. I don't care if you CAN make the shot 9 out of 10 times, you do not intentionally increas the risk of the shot. That is unethical. His hunting ethics are different from mine which is okay, but I just had to express my opinion. I think it's wrong. Impressive shot but unnecesarily risky. And no I'm not bashing, just expressing my opinion, so don't flame me.

rickt300,

Spoken like a true texan.. if you can't do it no one should....

Fusion,

well your intellegence is obvious... don't lump all lr huntiers into one catagory .. I don't lump all SR hunters into one..... thats just ingnorance at its best.... not all LR hunters act alike or do the same things...
there are correct and incorrect ways of doing everything.... coreect???

I never purposefully backed up to shoot any animal... I do however, have the capabilities to harvest an animal in excess of 500 yards... with ease...

it has been proven time and time again that animals taken at longer ranges actually die quicker... why you ask.. there is no adrenalin rush or moment of terror because they typically have no idea where that far off noise came from and the ullet can do its job more effectivly if there is no adrenalin ....

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
All I can say is that if I knew his identity, I would contact officials in the B.C. Gov't. to ensure that he can never obtain a 'non-resident alien" hunting licence here, this would protect B.C. from his type of "hunter".

HUH???

You would make sure that he never got a license? Based on WHAT??

I've hunted a lot of places. Never once was I asked when buying a license "How far do you intend to shoot?", or "How will you be hunting?", or "Do you pass our 'ethics' test?"

It's good to know that guys like you are out there to "protect B.C. from his type of "hunter"." A regular one-man crusade to save the world...

There's been a lot of stupid things said in arguments on this board, but this has got to be one of the better lines I've heard. And one of the most arrogant.

quote:

well your intellegence is obvious... don't lump all lr huntiers into one catagory .. I don't lump all SR hunters into one..... thats just ingnorance at its best.... not all LR hunters act alike or do the same things...
there are correct and incorrect ways of doing everything.... coreect???

Horst, did I ever say that you purposefully backed up to shoot any animal? No, I was commenting on that one other hunter. I did not lump all LR hunters into one group either. I merely said that PURPOSEFULLY increasing a range to target is unethical...I never said you should never take a long shot. Please read my argument before responding next time. And don't condescend to me about intelligence, it does not suit you. I am not quite sure why you insist on insulting those who respectfully disagree with you.

I'd say mostly because he is a jerk who cares not a bit about leaving wounded game in the field, whose head is so big he thinks he can judge Wyoming's wind accurately (what a laugh), thinks hunting is the same as shooting and is the epitome of the devils advocate of doing and argueing for dumbass stunts.

Let me preface this entire post with:

IN THE HANDS OF A VERY SKILLED MARKSMAN THAT KNOWS THE RIFLE, HAS AN ACCURATE RANGEFINDER AND HAS THE DROP/DRIFT CHART...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I often shoot at 800-850 yards at painted rocks. At 800 yards the bullet splash, even from a .300 RUM, is often no bigger than a dime. At 600 yards it is about 2 1/2 inches.

I think you have pretty much hit it right here.

For the overbore 30s, in the field, I believe 600 yards is about as long as is practical.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The guy never mentions the wind. At that range, a 1 mph will blow any bullet 4 inches. A princess fairy farts harder than that.

I noticed that as well... especially with his combo...

I have a couple of 30 caliber long range rigs. I use 220 grain Match Kings in one and 240 grain Match Kings in the other. It is a little contrary to common thought that the overbore 30s are all about velocity.

So why the very heavy bullets?

Because velocity, hence trajectory, is OVER-RATED!

With a rangefinder and a chart, trajectory is of no consequence. Who cares how flat the rifle is shooting because you are going to be DIALED IN.

The biggest variable in long range shooting is THE WIND!

The best way to negate the effect of wind on a bullet... INCREASE PROJECTILE WEIGHT!

If at 500 yards with a ~20 mph wind, a 150 grain bullet drifts 10"... My 240 grain bullet might only drift 6"...

That is a big deal.

It is VERY SIMILAR to benchrest shooting in that sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Spyro Andes:
Let me preface this entire post with:

IN THE HANDS OF A VERY SKILLED MARKSMAN THAT KNOWS THE RIFLE, HAS AN ACCURATE RANGEFINDER AND HAS THE DROP/DRIFT CHART...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I often shoot at 800-850 yards at painted rocks. At 800 yards the bullet splash, even from a .300 RUM, is often no bigger than a dime. At 600 yards it is about 2 1/2 inches.

I think you have pretty much hit it right here.

For the overbore 30s, in the field, I believe 600 yards is about as long as is practical.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The guy never mentions the wind. At that range, a 1 mph will blow any bullet 4 inches. A princess fairy farts harder than that.

I noticed that as well... especially with his combo...

I have a couple of 30 caliber long range rigs. I use 220 grain Match Kings in one and 240 grain Match Kings in the other. It is a little contrary to common thought that the overbore 30s are all about velocity.

So why the very heavy bullets?

Because velocity, hence trajectory, is OVER-RATED!

With a rangefinder and a chart, trajectory is of no consequence. Who cares how flat the rifle is shooting because you are going to be DIALED IN.

The biggest variable in long range shooting is THE WIND!

The best way to negate the effect of wind on a bullet... INCREASE PROJECTILE WEIGHT!

If at 500 yards with a ~20 mph wind, a 150 grain bullet drifts 10"... My 240 grain bullet might only drift 6"...

That is a big deal.

It is VERY SIMILAR to benchrest shooting in that sense.

Actually it is bullet "lag" that effects long-range shooting the most, not necessarily bullet weight alone. Lag is the time it takes for the bullet to impact the target after leaving the muzzle or time in flight. Less lag means less time for the wind to blow it around.

Heavier bullets, especially VLD, long range target, or BTHP type (as in BTHP match) usually have a higher BC and less lag than lighter weight bullets of the same caliber. Usually but not always. Sometimes heavier bullets have more lag. There are too many variables to make either absolutely true.

Muzzle velocity can affect lag. A higher muzzle velocity reduces lag if the bullet being fired slows less in flight than other bullets. Otherwise the opposite is true. Actual time in flight effects wind deflection more than lighter bullet weight alone will.

I personally don't believe getting farther away from an animal to get a longer shot is hunting. That IMHO is "shooting," NOT hunting.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…