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Yes Flippy, you misunderstood. I'll not ask you how many books you've written until it's clear you can understand what you read. You said:
Mr. Emary said:
Two completely different things. Mr. Emary is describing the very definition of Balistic Coefficient. You are describing time of flight. You are incorrect, he is not. | |||
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Wow, what a bunch of garbage. No wonder why I find so many crippled critters towards the end of hunting season. Long range shooting has no place while hunting. Those that think so need to have their hands or legs shot off with no access to the emergency room. I know some guys are very accurate from the bench at 500+, but there is a big difference between shooting a paper target off the bench and shooting at a living animal 300 yards away off your pack in the woods. Although, it has been my experience that many of these so called "long rangers" are the same dipshits who sit in their trucks all day or ride their four wheelers all over the place and can't figure out why they don't see any game under 200 yards!  "Where's all the elk, I've ridden this four wheeler 40 miles today!!"It is called HUNTING, not SHOOTING you morons.  MG | |||
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You are right, I misunderstood what he was saying. At least I am reading AND shooting to try and learn more... EDIT: Sorry for the attitude...  JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Funny, my experiences have been exactly opposite. In my neck of the woods its always the goofs that don't know one end of a gun from another riding on their quads all day wounding game at 200 or less yards. The guys doing the long range stuff generally stalk into their spot where they can overlook a large area, range the area and then take their shot if the conditions permit. I have yet to see any long range woundings of game up here. I have however seen alot of the previously mentioned quad hunters banging away with their short range meat cleavers blowing off hooves and legs with reckless abandon. How do you know what your limits are if you don't reach them? | |||
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Don't worry about it at all, Flippy. None of us are born with this knowledge. We all have to learn it at some point.  | |||
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Yes we do. I probably should listen to an engineer for Boeing...  JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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from paul at sierra bullets: -------------------------------- There's one VERY good reason that we don't recommend the MK's for huntin' and that's simply because they're not designed with expansion in mind.This bullet is made with one thing and one thing only in mind,and that's the best possible accuracy that we can build into this bullet.The small opening in the nose is one area in which problems can occur.Sometimes,depending on the impact velocity and the angle in which it hits,this tiny HP can pinch together and cause this bullet to act more like an FMJ.If it hits squarely on heavy bone,it's possible for it to "splatter" more like a varmint bullet. We get reports each and every year from hunters telling us they've killed 5 deer in a row without a hitch and therefore just don't understand why we don't recommed them to hunt with.It's not that we don't think they can work,but rather that they could fail.I could go on and on but the bottom line is what they're orginally desined for.Any time a bullet is used outside it's intended purpose,different results other than what was intended can happen.We know they can work..........but because of design.....we know they could fail. | |||
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Tasunkawitko, your wisdom and sierra quote will fall on deaf ears with most of that LR crowd. They are not hunters but shooters. I had a go-around with Ric Horst a few pages back regarding the SMK bullet which he painted off as the most reliable hunting bullet. ( Go figure). His lack of knowledge is as profound as his sloppy spelling. | |||
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as per mr. jack o'connor, here are some "rules" for long-range hunting. i believe that they can be agreed on by most of us here, even the long-range hunters! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * a long-range shot should never be taken if there is a reasonable chance of getting closer. * a long-range shot should never be taken if the rifleman feels doubtful of his ability to make a good, solid, well-placed hit. * a long-range shot should never be taken if the hunter cannot get into a solid position - prone with a sling, from a rest, etc. * a long-range shot should never be taken at any dangerous animal - a brown, grizzly or polar bear, a lion, a tiger, a leopard, a cape buffalo. * a long-range shot should never be taken at an unwounded, running animal. * a long-range shot should never be taken if the animal shot at can get out of sight so quickly that it would be difficult to ascertain the effect of the shot. * a long-range shot should not be taken if the range is so great that a hold on top of the shoulders will not drop a bullet into the chest cavity. these rules may seem ultra conservative to many, and i must admit that there have been times when i did not follow them myself. however, the more i hunt and the more i see others shoot the more convinced i am that they are wise and sensible rules and if they were universally adopted the number of game animals that get away wounded to suffer and die would be greatly reduced. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the question then remains, what defines a long-range shot on a game animal? i believe that each hunter has to make an honest evaluation of his own abilities (not the rifle's) and let his moral and ethical judgement guide his choice when the game is sighted. | |||
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Rules? LongDistanceHunters don't need no stinking rules! | |||
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Gatogordo..has at least taken the time to look into this and now he understands.... we arn't a bunch of heathens slinging lead.... Tasun... man where the hell have you been living ...in MT and you have no idea about LR hunting... sheesh.... as far as SNK's dude.. look at the bullet it is a hollow point .. what don't you get...??? Would you be satisfied if I said I use core-lokts... or BT's which I have personally seen fail numerous times!!! Rules your gonna make rules for hunters... the SR guys need the rules... like shoot more than 3 rounds a year.... and hold better than minute of pie plate.... Madgoat... the cripples here in Wyo are from fat outta shape idiots that run up a hill to take a whack at and animal and if it didn't fall over they have no stamina to go after it.... the rest are from the " hold my beer, watch this crowd" and see how far they can throw lead... you buddies that can shoot form the bench at 500.. bring 'em on I can do the same thing from a bi-pod... I havn't ever hunted from a 4 wheeler in wyo... afoot and horseback though.... Shrike, you really think you have all this wisdom... explain the purpose of a hollow point... I havn't just jumped on this bandwagon yesterday.. all I speak of are from results... results proven again and again over time... the plain simple truth is SMK's just plain work sorry to burst your old fashioned bubble... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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I have an idea for everyone throwing a fit about matchking bullets. Why don't you take your 30/06 or what ever you have go and buy some cheap factory ammo with softpoints (because 85% or more hunters buy these instead of the good bullets) then get some Sierra MatchKings in the same weight and test them on wet phone books at 100,200,300,400, and 500 yards. Then let us know how it went. Oh and just another question for the some of the so called experts on here. It's Wednesday today and I already have shot 150 rounds so far this week anywhere from 100 to 900 yards. How much trigger time do you have in? Oh and lets clear something else up a 300 yard shot unless it is on field mice is not a long shot.  | |||
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dakor - the thing that you just don't seem to get (and neither does your sweetheart ric), is that deer and elk are NOT wet phone books. i have known some people whom i would trust very much with a long-range shot, because they not only knew what tehy were talking about, but also because they realized that they were hunting game, not trying to make red mist. i have also known several who THOUGHT that they could do it. they caused a lot of damage, and most didn't care. pointing fingers back at "short-range" hunters does nothing to address the issue at hand. with an attitude like that, you ought to run for congress. | |||
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My personal problem with this whole shot is the attitude of this guy. If you can mak an 800 yard shot and circumstances don't allow you to get any closer is one thing but to try and get FARTHER away is unethical. Then to have the gall to pack a sharpie and a board to write all this down and take photos to post on the internet is BS. Then this guy goes on how he took a long shot at a ram and blew its front leg off with his first shot. This guy is one of the most unethical hunters-(and I'm using this term very loosly) that I have ever seen. No Ric I am not clumping all LR hunters into 1 group. After reading all of your posts I feel you are one of the good guys and why you are defending this moron I don't know. Hunting isn't a mater of life and death......it's more important than that | |||
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Shootist, Make no mistake...I am not defending what he did... what I am defending is the LR hunting crowd from the pseudo intelligent "old timers" who refuse to see the technology and science behind what is possible with surgical precision at distances that the "hold my beer, watch this" crowd would get into a bar fight over... The "Tasunkawitko" and the likes crowd, with their blinding ignorance and "old school" mentality is beyond comprehension... They fail to see the advancement of manufacturing capabilities with the components used to assemble a precision rifle as well as the components to manufacture the elements used to assemble a precision cartridge. It is also apparent that they are convinced that every LR hunter is a a 4-wheelin' beer guzzlin' pick-up truck riding blow hard that just wants to see what his walmart earsplittenloudenboomer can do on bambi at 800 yards.... Sorry boys it isn't like that at all... Do I look for places that allow me to take a long shot if it presents itself ... yes you bet. But that place is always a place that allows me the best visual advantage of a very large area... not just the longest shot... it that area a place that just looks cool... NO.. it is a place that I have typically spent long hours scouting and observing in the off season to insure that it will produce mature quality quarry that I am after.... I wouldn't spend countless hours in a place that would only produce immature animals just to say I pulled off a long shot... tasunkawitko .. I am not pointing fingers back at SH range hunters.. just pseudo intelligent ones such as yourself... you must live way out in the hills or plains of MT not to have any idea what is available to you... I was out of town for 10 days but in the 6 days prior to me departing town I fired 326 rounds at distances of 500 to 750 yards... just to keep my skills where I like them... once the snow stops I will more than likely fire 1-200 rounds this week.. and I have what...6 more months until hunting season is in full swing... this sport isn't for the typical hunter.. it requires more dedication to all aspects of hunting and marksmanship than most will even consider time wise or monetarily. I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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and herein lies your quandary, ric. all of the hi-tech electronics and fancy bullets don't mean a damn thing if you missed your morning cup of coffee or if you are worried about your stock portfolio. until they design a system to guide the bullet to the deer by radar or laser, the guy behind the trigger will ALWAYS be the problem. some have it, and some don't. couple this with an attitude that says "only 600 yards? i'd better move farther back! hold my beer and get my sharpie out...." and all ethics go out the window. now as to geography, montana, like wyoming, is composed of a combination of plains and mountains. like wyoming, shots can be long. also like wyoming, we DO have electricity, satellite the internet, and even running water. this means that i've got the same access to TV and on-line information as you, and that i can even read a magazine while sitting on the can. in other words, i know exactly what is out there, and the stuff available can be very valuable help, but it is all worth nothing, even with the skill, unless there is the correct attitude behind it. i know a guy and his brother, and if they said, "that deer is 800 yards, and i can get it," i would believe them. that's because they have already gone through every option and factor, but it is ALSO because i ahve seen kills of theirs from 75 yards. their ATTITUDE is the difference, ric, and that's something that can't be supplied by batteries or LCDs, GPSs or other technology. it can only come from two places: good upbringing and life experience. | |||
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tasunkawitko, I know Deer and Elk are not phone books. My point was try a bullet test and see what you find. I do not use Matchkings but I know they do work. I use Accubonds or Ballistic Tips or X bullets it depends on what I am hunting. I do not try walk away from animals to make a longer shot I use a long shot as the last resort on big game. Now if I can't get closer and the conditions are right and Mr Whitetail will not let me close the gap and he is in MY shooting range he is going down. Two years ago I belly crawled across a frozen lake to get a buck on the otherside with my muzzle loader. It took me almost 2 hours to get within 130 yards and I finally was able to take him. My elbows and knee's were black and blue for a week after that. I also bow hunt so I know what close is. Now if someone wants to get as far away as they can to get a long range kill and he has the skill to do it that is his cross to bare not mine. | |||
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so dakor - are you trying to say that YOU know more than all of the guys at sierra, with their advanced testing capabilities (read: something besides wet phonebooks)????? MY point is that these guys have been doing this for a living for a long time. i don't see any reason why i or anyone else, ESPECIALLY a young or novice hunter, should take your "advice" over the advice of the people who make the very bullet you are talking about. | |||
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i agree absolutely and 100% with this, and applaud your ethics. i also agree that if you CAN'T get closer, then it is good to be prepared for a longish shot. however, i would also contend that there is no way in hell that it is "impossible" not to get at least 400-500 yards away, and it is very likely that 98% of game can be stalked to within 200 yards, yes, even out west! i live out here. | |||
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tasun....
um... see this....
again... most of the responsible LR hunters will.. spend countless hours shooting and making drop charts for all kinds of weather consitions.... you fail to see this.... we arn't talking about the intial post anymore... not after you generalized all us LR hunters into one group.... get with the program... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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Tasunkawitko: You really don't get it. The LR guys don't shoot phone books, they kill animals, thousands of them by now, with Match Kings. Do they always perform perfectly? I doubt it, NOR does any other bullet. If you don't need the accuracy and BC requirements they do, that's fine, use what you want, but arguing with someone who uses something that works FOR THEM time after time is kind of dumb. I know one LR shooter who personally has killed hundreds of deer with MKs, so you're trying to tell him they don't work? Get a life. BTW, have you ever shot a game animal with a MK? If you haven't, then all you are is an armchair quaterback who doesn't know how the game is really played. You can scream all you want at the TV set, or the computer screen, and, guess what, the players will keep on doing what they know works. I was in your position once, didn't like discussing a topic that I had no personal experience with, so I asked around, found no one that had shot an animal with MKs that didn't say the result was a dead animal, so I tried it, and.....walllah.....a dead hog, he weighed about 250 pounds. Since then, I've killed several whitetails and a few more hogs with them, all deal, all one shot kills. Do I use them everytime I go hunting, no, but I don't use any other bullet everytime either. It depends on what and where I'm hunting and, for that matter, what I want to shoot that trip. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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that's very funny, fatcat, as usual, thanks for the HUGE laugh! my comments on the MatchKing ALL come directly from sierra. are you trying to tell me that you know more than sierra, or are you trying to tell me that you are so giddy over these butchers that you will say anything to justify their position? i would suggest that you are the one who doesn't get it. | |||
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hey... super hunter (tasunkawitko) what perfect never fail bullet do you use??? I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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No, I'm trying to tell you personally that you personally don't know what you're talking about. Cut and paste all you want to, the dead animals killed by Matchkings know more about it than you do, which is not surprising. As for being giddy.....that's funny.....I respect advanced shooting skills and have a few of them myself but I don't normally shoot beyond 500m. But you keep getting your panties in a wad about this when it doesn't matter to me what you think, reality rules, nor does it matter to the shooters, reality rules, or the critters killed with MKs, reality rules. On second thought, I kind of enjoy your silly outbursts. It reminds me of the story of the blind men describing an elephant. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Guys, guys, you can kill an animal w/ a rock, it doesn't make it the best or even a proper "bullet" for the job. BTW, the HP in the SMK is NOT for expansion, it's to facilitate the making of the bullet & to give it a higher BC. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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fred....yeah .. knew that... but you can't argue the fact they work just like a hollow point .. the is just too much evidence out there to ignore it... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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so Tasun.... I ask again.... what super bullet do you use....?? I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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I'm just stating facts and observations, not bashing here... In my limited experience, they work like a frangable bullet. The jacket is so thin, it shatters... A hollow point needs hydraulic pressure to start expansion. The opening in a SMK is so small, with a large cavity behind it, that it will smash flat long before it 'expands' in the traditional sense. The design on the SMK is to lengthen the bullet (enhanse BC) and make it rear heavy (better stabilizing). The HP is NOT designed to enhance expansion. Compare it to 'traditional' HP designs, both pistol and rifle. Note features like scored/sliced jacket mouths, polymer tips, tapered cavities, etc. all of which work to control/aid expansion. Are any of the features found in a SMK? Do you have any pictures of recovered SMK's from your hunting to share? I bet good $$ they are not of mushroomed bullets very often...mostly bent up or fragmented bullets I'll wager. 2 arguements at work here...'they work for me' and 'designed for the purpose'. Both valid, to a point! Oh, they didn't give me any confidence when I shot a couple of hogs (much closer that 800 yards for sure)...but neither did Remington CoreLokt's for that matter. The hogs died, but from shock and bullet fragments...I like exit wounds...big exit wounds. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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tasun... me a troll.. common now, I can gather quite few people that will vouch for me and my experience.. judging by your post count you are by far a better troller.. seems to me if you spent half that time shooting you might see for yourself what I am talking about.... CDH... I can honestly say I have never recovered a MK... I have selveral people who did and Dave King has numerous ones I believe... He also did a test by cutting in half various hunting bullets and a MK and found that the MK has a thicker jacket which has performed the muchrook effect more than the fragment effect... you guys can argue all you want but there is just way to much evidence to say they don't work.. the hard truth is the work as well if not better than hunting bullets at any range... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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So now Matchkings are better hunting bullets than bullets the same manufacturer recommends for hunting? At 800 yards no less? If you hadn't noticed Matchkings cost more than Gamekings and if MK's were better game bullets why would Sierra continue to make Gamekings? Or why wouldn't Sierra recommend them for hunting? Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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This thread is a hopeless flame. Let it die fellas!  --->Happiness is nothing but health and a poor memory<---Albert Schweitzer --->All I ever wanted was to be somebody; I guess I should have been more specific<---Lily Tomlin | |||
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rickt, dude you are an idiot.. we've been over this... think about what you said... why Sierra does what they do... Lawyers and Marketing .. leads to sales... thats why... you figure out how... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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I have sectioned some Matchkings, Gamekings and numerous other bullets along with shootin some of them into different media. You can hypothesize on why Sierra does what they do or say but the facts are Gamekings, corelokts, interloks and Hotcor's all provided more consistant expansion and penetration than Matchkings. They are also less likely to tumble. I also shot some feral hogs with the 168 grain Matchking and I had one go thru without any expansion but the other three tumbled and broke up. Yup killed the hogs but not consistant performance like most of us reasonable and ethical hunters like to have. I agree that this thread should cease and desist as Hic Rorst has wasted enough of cyberspace. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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From what I have found the GameKing and Pro Hunter Bullets tend to lose the core and fragment Especially at higher velocity's. I have not seen this on the bigger MatchKing bullets. I think we need to clear things up a little bit on Matchkings. The guys that are using them are not using a 224cal 52 grain bullet. They are using 30cal bullets anywhere from 168 to 240 grains and 338cal bullets either 250 grain bullets or the 300 grain. I don't care what you are shooting in NA with those weight of bullets and the SD's they have they will kill any animal with a shot through the ribs. Somebody please try and tell me that the bullet wont go through the largest NA game through the ribs to hit the lungs. A soft lead round ball out of a muzzle loader has killed every Big Game Animal in NA. The guys using MatchKings are not taking Raking shots or shoulder shots they are taking shots through the ribs. How hard is that to understand? I use Ballistic Tips for most Game I shoot and that bullet gets a bad rap also but I would really like to see what Animal in NA that can take a 180 grain through the ribs out of my 300 Win and and not die. | |||
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rickt, wasted space... hey this board is full of it... 90% of this place is bickering... what you can't stand is someone who doesn't conform to your specs..... show me the bullet that went through without expansion...or proof that it did..!!! corelokts are a poor excuse for a hunting bullet.... I have 2 witness's that watched a real nice mulie get hit at 80 yards and kept on going after one zipped through the front shoulder... that deer is still alive today... we also saw the same thing happen to an antelope and we have that on video!!! tasun... you're like a child .. you keep posting that ... you think he is God or somthing... I have a real close freind that used to work a Sierra and is a real good aquaintence of the ballastician there... you guys are so dense you can't see why sierra says what they say... just accept the fact that the trend in hunting bullets isn't as you would like it and that LR shots are as precise as you way of hunting... from the looks of it... you 2 could post less and learn more... I have read dozens of books by hero's and crooks and have learned much from both of their styles! | |||
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I vote that before anybody else feels he has to add his 2 cents on the whole Matchking debate, he is required to read every word of the famous Matchking thread. Then, if he finds he actually has something to say that hasn't already been said a few hundred times, he can add it. | |||
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First,I don't advocate super-long range hunting because of the obvious factors inherent in the field that can decrease accuracy and increase the potential for a poor hit. Having said that, I realize that neither my nor anyone else's posting our disagreement is going to change few minds about. Keeping this in mind, I recommend that those who would like to try long-range hunting consider using the Hornady A-max bullet. Hornady says that the bullet can be used for the hunting of thin-skinned game, and the bullets themselves can be very accurate and have some of the highest BC's in the industry while often being able to be loaded so they fit in the magazine. Since they're built similarly to the SST's or Nosler BT's, they have similar expansion tendencies, so they wouldn't be suitable for thick-skinned or dangerous game. On the other hand, they are perfect for deer and I've read that hunters have had good success using them on elk. Just a thought... Tim People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell | |||
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