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Interesting that you mention that. The outfitter I hunt with in western Colorado has been thinking about something similar, except his concern is over one caliber, the .7mm Rem Mag. He openly states that he has seen more elk shot and lost by his clients over the years, that were using the .7mm Rem Mag that all other calibers combined including .270's and such. He simply believes that too many folks simply do not work with their guns enough to know its abilities/limitations and their own limitations. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I agree with Crazy & "Just", somewhat with Larry as well. I don't believe you can blame a particular cartridge for elk failures. To me makes no sense. Larry might be dealing with more "yayhoo's" and "banana's" than other PH'S. The most spectacular DRT'S I have seen have been with the 270 Winchester, 4 of them. I have never felt that me or any of the guys I hunt and shoot with, with the exception of one world class shooter, were of exceptional shooting ability. Yet after a few of these posts I believe the results we achieve are exceptional. Like I said get close and closer still!! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Been reading this thread for a while. IMO, Brad pretty much sums it up. I prefer the .338 Win Mag for elk, which is really just a .30-06 supersized. But at this stage in my life, I only shoot 6x6 or bigger and don't feel like dick dancing. I have not shot elk with a .308 Win, but I have shot 4 red stag with it and would not hesitate to use it on elk. It is my favorite all around hunting caliber - be using one in MN this Saturday. My favorite 500 yard gong shooter as well. | |||
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And making them go to a 30 magnum will help that problem? | |||
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Not likely, my son has taken two elk with my 7mm-08 carbine. No fuss, no muss.   | |||
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Too funny, I'd absolutely never hunt with someone of such limited thinking.  | |||
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And lots and lots of bullets in case we happen to see one! | |||
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Reading comprehension is not one of your strong points I see! Had you paid just a slight bit of attention, Larry did not say anything about li9mitiong hunters to any .30 Mag. he clearly stated the .308 and up which includes both the .308 Win. and the .30-06. The outfitter I mentioned only has problems with the .7mm Rem Mag. He would actually rather have his hunters use whatever they want as long as they can A. hit what they are aiming at, and B, be aware of their OWN/INDIVIDUAL limitations/abilities. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Todd - No harm no foul, you would be just one of the hunters that I would pass off to someone else. The fact that you call a person stupid for not believing in the same thing you do would be another reason to not have you in camp!!! Never had a problem finding enough folks who bought into my scheme of things, so passing on the few who didn't agree was not an issue. Larry Sellers SCI (International)Life Member R8 Blaser and Win Mod 70
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Imagine some of the profound looks Larry gets when he tells prospective customers that that .308win-180NP 2600mv is fine, but 7mmMag175NP 3000mv is not permissible. IF Boddingtons daughter wanted to hunt elk in Larrys camp using here favorite veteran 7mm/08 of several yrs, which she used so well on game including zebra and eland,...would he reject her? ..  | |||
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For someone that took me to task a while back for my responses on subjects, you seem to have fallen off the wagon as of late. I thought you were all about just discussing hunting? States place minimum requirements on what is legal for hunting Big Game, and I have noticed that many guides/outfitters/hunt operators place minimum caliber restrictions on the hunts they offer. You seem to be saying that a business person is wrong or in your words, "Fucking Stupid" for placing stipulations on how or what their clients can act or use when participating on one of their hunts/trips. Having been working as a guide since 1998, from my experiences both on my own hunts and the guided hunts I have taken, clients either go along with the operators rules or they don't get booked, and it is that simple. Any business operator has the right to set the parameters of how they do business as long as it is legal, and the client/potential client has the right to decide whether they want to do business with that person or not. Calling someone "Fucking Stupid" over their belief on an issue, sounds like something I would say that I am working at getting away from. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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So what exactly is your point? And Elk killing experience? | |||
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Well Chucky Old Bean, I have been hunting elk since 1992 and out of 12 or 14 trips killed 8 elk for myself and was present either as another hunter in the camp or helping with the guide crew on another 2 dozen or so. What is your point? I have already stated that I have killed elk with a .35 Whelen/.300 Weatherby/.340 Weatherby and .375 H&H, and have seen elk killed with .243/.270/.308 and .30/06. Even though I prefer using the larger calibers for MY OWN hunting. What another person uses is THEIR BUSINESS as long as they are satisfied with the results. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Todd - Just looked back through my records and didn't find a Todd from Rangely, CO, so guess I have never "told you" what is best for you to hunt elk with. In fact I have "never" told anyone what is best to hunt elk with, just what the minimum they can hunt with in "my" camps. Lots of difference there, guess you just can't see it. Dumb ass rule, bad rule, good rule, not so good rule, excellent rule, really doesn't matter now does it. What matters is it's MY rule. If you don't like the rules of the game, take your ball(rifle) and go play in the street with YOUR OWN rules. Careful traffic gets a little busy out there.  Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser - Win. Mod 70
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Sorry, but, when someone with 30 or 40 years worth of actual experience relates something like that to me, I tend to want to listen too them. The point is, they are not actually blaming the caliber, as much as they are blaming the shooter. I like the bigger rifles, but bigger is not always the better answer. You can not, well on second thought I guess you can blame a guide/outfitter, since you are, for requiring people to use something they may be better able to shoot accurately. Not sure your experience level, but I have been in camps and talked to quite a few hunters that were used to a .308 or .270 or .30-06 and were successful hunting deer with one of those calibers, when going on their first ever elk hunt, ran out and bought a .7mm mag or one of the .30 mags and ended up having poor results, because they were afraid of the gun. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I suspect you all are much better shooters than you think. When I hit a popular rifle range prior to deer season around here I leave feeling bad for the deer. Most guys don't shoot groups, they shoot patterns. They get half a box within the 8" bull on the targets the range provides - at 100yds - and they are smiling when they pack up. That seems "typical" around here. Moreover, a true hunter with some experience senses when to shoot and when to let the critter take one more step, or drop his head to browse... I think good timing can be a significant contributor to the quick death of the target. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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[Crazy: This is the very first time, I feel I have to take you to task. Larry may do as he pleases in his camp, but for discussion, IMO he is all wet. As I said earlier, I have been around and shot a lot of elk, and the best drops were with the 270 Winchester. If you can say best drops!! What he describes, again IMO. are guys that can't properly place their bullets. Believe me, if I can do it, so can anyone else. On the other hand, I am glad I don't have to deal with people who are not hunter/shooters and are hunting MY elk for ego! Jerry Sorry, but, when someone with 30 or 40 years worth of actual experience relates something like that to me, I tend to want to listen too them. NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Oh and one other thing. I feel I am very fortunate, to be able to hunt elk on my own without someone I have to pay. I enjoy finding, making up my own strategy and then stalking/setting up and making a successful hunt. Yeah, I guess I am long winded tonight. No offense to anyone. All this is subject to one's opinion. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Take me to task all you want to, but as you pointed out, It Is Just Your Opinion, and since Larry is the person running the camp and paying his bills, your opinion, my opinion, everyone else's opinion is irrelevant. You have had your experiences, but that does not mean that those out weigh mine or anyone else's now do they? You are missing the point completely. As I have stated about 40 eleven hundred times, I DO NOT CARE WHAT ANYONE USERS AS LONG AS THEY ARE SATISFIED WITH THE RESULTS. What problem do YOU have with that????? I am still trying to understand WHY, Larry stating his opinion has caused so many people a problem. His camps/his rules, what damn difference does it make. If you are booking a hunt with someone else, you either abide by their rules or find someone else to book with. That is a pretty simple concept. Jerry whatever has worked for you, has worked for you and I am happy for you. I am happy for ANYONE that is comfortable and satisfied with what they are using, so why make derogatory comments about someone you have not met or dealt with, simply because you do not agree with their choices? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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NObody is telling Larry to change his camp rules of 'minimum 30cal' whoever wants to be subservient to his silly cartridge rules, go right ahead your most welcome. ...and since he doesn't have the required confidence to get a client their elk when using a 7mm/08 or 7mmMag, then he's not the type of hunting guide I be putting my money & time with. Experience hunting with a competent capable guide who can still put you into proper position totally regardless of whether you have a compound bow,7mm/08,300mag or .375rum,...and you might understand. If you meet a guide who starts making lame excuses as it why you need a larger cartridge just to please him, be wise and walk away before you throw your money down. | |||
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Trax - Let's see, over a dozen Elk with a bow and arrow for me and counting. Seems getting close to an elk hasn't been a problem except in your feeble mind. BTW, "all" my guides are bow hunters themselves, so close is their expertise. Always speaking and bla, bla, blaing when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Oh, by the way, you never answered a couple of questions I asked you on another thread. Here they are again. Do you even own a gun, and do you actually hunt? Or do you just lurk out here to stir the pot? Sorry three questions, oh well. Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser and Win Mod 70 | |||
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yet 7mmMags you consider somewhat inadequate for elk and are out of your elk camps. | |||
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To get kinda back on topic I have done some guiding and I have seen clients arrive from far off eastern cities with the newest wonder mag. We make them sit down and shoot after arriving so you can ensure the gun is on and the level of ability of said client. I remember one kid had the then new .300 RUM and he obviously never shot it much. In fact he could not hit much of anything on the range. Scoped himself as I remember too. He was definitely afraid of the gun. Later in hunt he misses badly multiple times from pretty close range and starts blaming everyone else, especially the outfitter and guides. In his case we should have advocated a ,270 or less clause. White Mountains Arizona | |||
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When I would go up and be the camps "Step N' Fetchit" before my hunt, the first thing that was done, was to load the hunters up, whether they drove in or flew in, and go to the gun range and get everyone of them to shoot a couple of rounds. Mainly it was to see if their gun was still on target from the trip, and secondarily to see how familiar/comfortable they were shooting their rifle. Some folks, especially hunters with a good bit of experience, can not seem to grasp the idea that there are people that will get worked up over going on their first hunt that will run out and drop the cash for a brand new rifle/scope rig and show up in camp having NEVER fired a single shot with the outfit. I had one this past opening weekend on a guided deer hunt that showed up with a brand new rig, in this case, in .243. I sighted it in for him, but he didn't even really know how to get shells into the magazine. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I had one this past opening weekend on a guided deer hunt that showed up with a brand new rig, in this case, in .243. I sighted it in for him, but he didn't even really know how to get shells into the magazine.[/QUOTE] Crazy, my point exactly where Larry's point of view is concerned. If I remember correctly he mentioned a whole bunch of elk, which "got away" when people used less than 30'S. My guess here, and I believe I am right, is he had less than experienced people shooting, or he didn't get them in the right position. Either way, to blame the sub 30'S for these failures doesn't sound quite right. No axe to grind as to any cartridge as you started this poll, and I have enjoyed it. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Hey Jerry - better read it again. Never said a word about "a whole bunch of elk getting away" in my operation. Trax - still won't answer the simple questions I asked you?? Your silence on this is telling me I am right. Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser - Win Mod 70
Crazy, my point exactly where Larry's point of view is concerned. If I remember correctly he mentioned a whole bunch of elk, which "got away" when people used less than 30'S. My guess here, and I believe I am right, is he had less than experienced people shooting, or he didn't get them in the right position. Either way, to blame the sub 30'S for these failures doesn't sound quite right. No axe to grind as to any cartridge as you started this poll, and I have enjoyed it. Jerry[/QUOTE] | |||
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I mentioned that the outfitter I use has stated several times that he has seen more elk hit and lost by people using .7mm Rem Mags, than ANY other cartridge. Jerry, I am 64, the outfitter I hunt with is 65 and has been working as a guide in western Colorado since he was 18, so you do the math as too how long he has been hunting and guiding. The ONLY caliber he has a problem with is the .7mm Rem Mag. I do not know Larry Sellers from a blade of grass, but if he wants to set a minimum caliber restriction on his hunts that is his business. I believe you stated that you had never used a guide. That is great if you are in the position to do that, but if you are not in that position and have to use a guide, they Do Know what the hell they are talking about. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I am 69 Crazy. Never have used a "guide", but I have had the opportunity to have local folks show me around a time or two. Thanks for your poll. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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yep, poor shooting or poor guiding, or possibly both. Only an egotistical dill would distractingly put the fault repeatedly on 7mm cal. for any such failures. 7mm cal in many different hands has successfully assisted in piling up a whole range of game across the globe for many decades, But for some obscure profound reason 7mm refuses to do the right thing by Larry & his clients...  | |||
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 "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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I read through this shit with amusement .308 min is good to go but a .284 is not Absolutely hilarious Seems the more I read the more I am enlightened on the illogical ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Narrow minded to say the least I killed my first ever Mule Deer Tuesday Afyer all these years of reading this forum I'd say I broke several "AR rifle/cartridge rules" I won't lose any sleep over it ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Really? I guess your buck wasn't a regular reader of AR! You must have gotten lucky!! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Lucky? Are you kidding? I won the lottery ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Specifying a cartridge without reference to the quality of a bullet is not achieving anything in my opinion. Shooting a Sierra Gameking bullet in a 300 Win Mag on an elk is not so ideal as rather using a strongly constructed 160 gr TSX bullet in a 7mm Rem Mag. There is a huge difference. In fact we shoot kudus with a less powerful 7 mm Mauser with 160 gr TSX bullets all the time in our valley. We have an abundance of kudus in our region in the Eastern cape.  Santa Claus | |||
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Since when did all you Commies, decide that a business operator MUST follow your beliefs when deciding on how they are going to run their business? One time, many years back I saw an ad in the Fort Worth newspaper about doe hunts. I called and this guy was culling does off his High Fence operation. The price was really reasonable and I was getting all the pertinent information and was ready to commit, when the guy said, "Everyone that comes out on these hunts, has to use HIS rifle. I forget what caliber it was, but his reasoning was that he did not want anyone bringing anything that "Might" pass thru the doe and kill one of his Trophy bucks. I thanked him for his time and said that I would keep looking for a hunt somewhere. He asked why and I told him that I had rifles I hunted with and was used to and was not interested in hunting with someone else's rifle. His place/his deer/his rules. I didn't tell him I thought he was stupid, I merely said that I was not interested in that type hunt. Larry's business/Larry's Rules, no reason to claim his rule was stupid or "Fucking Stupid". Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Uhhhh, crazy, if you provide a service, you damn well better cater to the client (that's the guy laying the money down) or you won't be in business long. (you find that in "intro to business" 101) And I'm talking about a genuine contractor or guide. Not some laid off sheep herder or out of work house painter that's trying to pick up some extra bucks. It'd be great if each client was in total, top notch shape and practiced shooting his xxx from field positions 3 days a week but that isn't what you get. The very transition from sea level to 7-9000 feet is a challenge in itself. Perhaps there are enough cliff dwellers just panting to go elk hunting that a contractor can cull his clients to only the best and brightest. But that doesn't make him a good guide. In fact, to me, it would indicate the opposite. A good guide has the ability to work with what he has to work with. Instead of laying down the law on caliber choices, I'd be more inclined to stress getting an adequate rifle and practice, practice, practice. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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How would the 7Mag and 284 fans react if a 175 grain bullet was required in sub 30 caliber guns? Most using those calibers are lookin for speed. Having been involved in a couple canyon bottom follow ups I am inclined to agree with Larry. Most elk I've shot didn't cooperate and stand broadside. I know a man who hunts all non dangerous game with a 250 Savage. It works most of the time and he loves it. I know for a fact he has lost a couple animals in Africa. I always felt a humane quick kill is every hunters responsibility. | |||
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That does not work anywhere. Go to a restaurant buck ass naked and see if you get served. The days of the customer is always right died about 40 years ago. Guides/outfitters/PH's, it don't matter, they can set any standards they want and there are plenty of people that are more than happy to abide by those standards, those that don't are more than welcome to find someone else to book with. In fact, Mr. Thinksheknowssomethingbutdon't, in Texas if a rancher or his agent tells a client that they can not shoot a certain white tail buck while hunting on that property, and the client goes ahead and shoots, the rancher/his agent simply phones the GW and the client will get the crap find out of themselves. You don't know one damn thing about anything. Just like resteraunts and other establishments that openly state that they can refuse service to ANYONE, hunting guides can do the same damn thing. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I gotta agree with Larry and Randall on this one. If the guide/outfitter sets a minimum, that is their rules. I abide by them. If people don't like it, for WHATEVER reason, they are free to book somewhere else. I'm sure there are no hard feelings if they do. I'm sure the guide has reasons for their rules. If we don't agree with them, no big deal. Just go elsewhere. It is not that hard. All the talk about what about this caliber, or the "right" bullet is moot. The rule is what it is. Try telling some of the African outfitters what you will bring or not. They have rules from what I understand. Like don't go Buff hunting with a .243. Never been, but I know some have such silly rules. Just because it "will" work doesn't mean it falls within the guidelines of the outfitter. I could argue until I am blue in the face that my .264 Win Mag with Partitions is every bit as good as my 308 with Sierras, but Larry won't allow it. No big. I personally would just switch to my 308 or 30-06. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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