Thank you Crazy for cluing us in with the following summary and ego proclamation.

"There is no be all/end all "Perfect For All Situations/Game/Hunters Rifle" of any kind.

As long as the individual is content and competent with what they are using, that is all that matters."

quote:

Brad is correct: It is a silly question. Come on, anyone that has really hunted elk, knows that there are really two factors that matter: Shot placement and the bullet used. All of these calibers are essentially the same. Sure, as gun nuts, we like to indulge in debating the minuscule differences, but I think the bottom line is that caliber makes little difference.

Then why didn't Brad say that, especially since that was my point all along!!!!!!!!!!!!

The poll was simply a means of finding out what some folks used for elk hunting, not one damn thing was mentioned about one caliber being better than another.

I believe Brad did say something earlier on, much to that effect:

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
I've taken elk with the 270W up to the 338WM. This year will be with a 7-08.

They all work.

The elk hunter makes the elk rifle, not the reverse.

No doubt Brad means they all work with an appropriate bullet and correct placement.

And lets be soberly realistic here;.. since a PH can get 52 out of 52 one shot kills(complete pass through) on African buffalo
using 200gn .338cal....what the f*ck do most people really effectively need for elk class of game?...

Earlier I posted how an American hunter at SCI delightedly expressed how effectively he drilled/killed his bull Eland with 140gnX-6.5/284
and someone here got their nose out of joint, because it does not comply to Elmer Keiths old published larger cal. advice....
However fact be know, Elmer quite successfully hunted a broad range of African game with his .28O OKH...
(essentially a .275 bore magnum rifle with old technology bullets)

However don't let such facts get in the way of some people wanting to contribute to this thread
based primarily on narrow-minded and somewhat obsolete concepts...

I used to go Elk hunting with my Uncle and cousins that live in Idaho.Everyone of them used a Big cal's when I started. I hunted with my model 7. 7-08 They a first made fun of me for using a little gun. But after I shot a couple of elk with it. they started hunting with smaller guns that were easier to carry. It a fact we carry them a lot more then we shoot them while elk hunting.

That is part of the equation. It does not take a howitzer to kill an elk, especially if the shooter can place their first shot where it needs to go.

I rarely if ever recommend ANY of the calibers I prefer to use, because from experience and personal observation, a hunter is going to be more successful if they are shooting a gun they are not afraid of, and there are a LOT of folks that have no business trying to hunt with any of the .30 Magnums and above.

My normal recommendation for most hunting in North America if asked, .270/.308 and .30-06.

Nothing anyone shoots with any of those 3 is going to know the difference and 99.999% of the shooters will not be able to tell any difference.

I just happen to like the bigger calibers and By God I do not believe Personal Preference has been outlawed in America YET!!!

I'm going to put in my $0.05 (smallest coin we have in Oz).

I have never seen an elk, and I doubt I willever hunt one, but if the lottery fairy were to strike, I would like to.

Now, someone whose experience I have a high regard for - Craig Boddington - said that pound for pound elk were tougher than any African game (how's that for stirring the pot?).

As such, when I win, I will probably be looking for a .300 Winny or a 9.3x62 or 338-06.

Remember that this would be my one and only time to hunt elk. I'd want to be able to take him at non-optimal angles and anchor him.

And, yes, I KNOW Jo'C did it with a 270 and I'm sure someone, somewhere has taken one with a .223, but it's MY decision, which is what I think Crazy was getting at.

My elk, my trophy, my decision, my consequences if it doesn't work out.

If you're a good shot with your 300 Win Mag, it will certainly hit harder than a 270 Win. You may have a 300 to 400 yard shot, so I'd stay away from the 338-06 for that reason. A good 180g bullet (Partition, A-Frame, etc) from your 300 Win Mag will certainly do the job if you place your shot.

I watched the "Job Get Done" just off of Grand Mesa a few years back by a damn fine rifle shooter using 150 grain Nosler Partitions out of a .270 at 500+ yards.

One shot thru heart/lungs on a decent 5x5 and it staggered about 25 maybe 30 yards before going down.

And I am not a fan of the .270, but even for me it is hard to argue with that kind of performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I watched the "Job Get Done" just off of Grand Mesa a few years back by a damn fine rifle shooter using 150 grain Nosler Partitions out of a .270 at 500+ yards.

One shot thru heart/lungs on a decent 5x5 and it staggered about 25 maybe 30 yards before going down.

And I am not a fan of the .270, but even for me it is hard to argue with that kind of performance.

A 270 shooting 150g Partitions at 3050 fps has been my elk medicine for almost 40 years now. Now that I'm loading for my two sons (they both have mirror image BDLs in 270s, one my old 60's vintage the other an 80s LH one) I've loaded them down to a sedate 2910 fps. Hard to go wrong with that combination.

378 WBY and 7mm rem mag

Interesting! Not little Creek Ranch is it??

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I started elk hunting in 1992 with an outfitter/guide operating out of Collbran in Unit 421. Been hunting with him ever since, the last time was a late season cow hunt last December.

I have killed my elk with my .35 Whelen/.300 Weatherby Mag./.340 Weatherby Mag. and my .375 H&H.

Last December's cow was killed with one high shoulder shot at 185 yards or so with a 168 grain Barnes TSX out of my .300 Weatherby.

Dropped in its tracks, which was unusual for me as elk, bulls or cows rattle me and I have only made two one shot kills out of the eight or nine I have killed.

And just to add a few cents to this discussion. This is a specialty rifles cartridge forum with lots of guys who spend lots of dough on neat exotic calibers and exotic custom loads, so obviously there will be a ton of different opinions. To be expected. The average Joe is another story completely.

Also for the record I love hunting Elk with a rifle but hunting Elk in the rut with a bow is way more exciting. So I have given up using a rifle on Elk unless I can get a good early season tag with a rifle. Hard to come by though and allows higher kill percentage usually.

I think Montana you can hunt fairly early with a rifle need to look into that. And I hunt Bull only unless I can get a easy tag for a cow. Save points for Bulls.

When I do hunt with rifle has been with.300 WM with 180's or .338 WM with 225's. I would have no hesitation with 30-06 and .270 with good bullets. Many have died with .243 lowest caliber in native Colorado allowed. Only restriction in AZ in centerfire. I have never heard of anybody hunting elk with a .223 in AZ, but is legal. Not smart though

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
If you're a good shot with your 300 Win Mag, it will certainly hit harder than a 270 Win. You may have a 300 to 400 yard shot, so I'd stay away from the 338-06 for that reason. A good 180g bullet (Partition, A-Frame, etc) from your 300 Win Mag will certainly do the job if you place your shot.

My current load for my .338-06 has a 200 grain Hornady SP at 2880 fps. It has a point blank range of 340 yards on a 10" kill zone. It only takes 3 MOA to get me to 400 yards, or hold top of back on an elk keeps me in the kill zone. It still has plenty of power to break bones when it gets there as well, so I wouldn't worry about a 400 yard shot with a .338-06.

quote:

Interesting! Not little Creek Ranch is it??

No Sir.
My first hunt was actually in Unit 22, Pieance Creek area. On the hunts where I was after bull elk after the first hunt some were on private land between Collbran and Vega Reservoir and others were in 22 south of Black Sulphur Creek.

I have killed 7 or 8 cow elk and 1 bull. The bull was killed in Unit 21 just off the Cathederal Bluffs.

Reading an old Field&Stream from 1999,...
David Petzal wrote that he hit a big bull elk in the chest with .340m/250np 3800ft/lb, and it was a DRT.
he then goes on to say that the previous day he saw a monster bull elk also drop in a heap - to a 280rem/150np.

Its from an article called 'The Numbers Racket' in which he talks about game in the US and Africa not responding to
to cartridges in ways that people obscessed with bore size and energy figures, believe they should.

Your sig line sums it up nicely. Shot placement

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Reading an old Field&Stream from 1999,...
David Petzal wrote that he hit a big bull elk in the chest with .340m/250np 3800ft/lb, and it was a DRT.
he then goes on to say that the previous day he saw a monster bull elk also drop in a heap - to a 280rem/150np.

Its from an article called 'The Numbers Racket' in which he talks about game in the US and Africa not responding to
to cartridges in ways that people obsessed with bore size and energy figures, believe they should.

I've killed several with a .308 win. A bunch with a .35 Whelen. A few with other stuff like a .270, 7x64, 30-06, .356 Win, and 375H&H. Good stalking is first importance, then good shot placement and good bullets next importance my experience. No such thing as "ultimate" for everyone.

Bren 7X64

Not that I want to cast any dispersions upon Mr. Boddington, but I couldn't disagree more about elk being that "tough to kill" I think mountain mule deer are tougher. I have seen more bang flops on elk, than on deer. Not that I am any kind of expert, but a couple weeks ago I bang flopped one with a muzzle loader. I have seen 5 bang flops with 270's, 4 with 30-06's, and a couple more with the 35 Whelen, let alone with muzzle loaders. ??? BTW I like the 7X64, and wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with one.

Jerry

Boddington has at times described zebra in the same-similar 'very tough' class as elk.
Yet his daughter took one at 200yd with 7mm/08 and a huge Eland with same rifle.
..and his wife a Zebra with .270win-130gn.

[quote]
" I am convinced that the vast majority of African plains game are best and most easily taken with a hunter’s favorite
deer cartridge, be it a .270, a 7mm or a .30 caliber."

"Yes, I know, African game has the legend of being extra-tough. Mostly this is hogwash. Animals such as wildebeest are
tougher than others, and some such as zebra can be both bigger and tougher. But there is no African antelope, pig or
equine that will not succumb to a well-placed, well-constructed bullet from any of these calibers."...

"Based not only on my experience, but what I’ve observed, I’d be perfectly happy to recommend a .30-06 as an ideal plains game rifle.
Or, for that matter, a 7×57 or .270 if that’s what you shoot best."

-C.Boddington.
[endquote]

Read more: http://www.sportsafield.com/co...t/rifles-plains-game ...
http://www.rifleshootermag.com...00808/#ixzz3HZrytAEv ..

The interesting thing to note is; the humble slow poking 7x57 175n RN solid (2200mv?),
has successfully dropped a large pile & variety of game when used by various skilled hands from famous poachers,PHs,clients,
and even young teenagers....

[quote]
"By the end of that safari the little Rigby rifle had accounted for a sable, a roan antelope, two zebras and a fair number
of plains-game species required for camp meat. Seldom was a second shot required—the .275 did all that was expected of it, and more."

"Bob also used the little Rigby on a later safari to Karamoja—Bell’s old hunting grounds in Uganda.... game was so scarce that the
only animals we got to use it on were the hartebeest. We shot a number of them for lion bait and again the .275 proved more than adequate."

"..when our son Mark entered his early teens it became the ideal rifle for him to use and he bagged a number of animals with it,
including kudu, wildebeest, tsessebe, lechwe, zebra and impala."

-H.Selby
[endquote]

Trax,

Excellent post.

Santa Claus

Bull? Which unit?

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Bren 7X64

Not that I want to cast any dispersions upon Mr. Boddington, but I couldn't disagree more about elk being that "tough to kill" I think mountain mule deer are tougher. I have seen more bang flops on elk, than on deer. Not that I am any kind of expert, but a couple weeks ago I bang flopped one with a muzzle loader. I have seen 5 bang flops with 270's, 4 with 30-06's, and a couple more with the 35 Whelen, let alone with muzzle loaders. ??? BTW I like the 7X64, and wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with one.

Jerry

Bull 6X6 Unit 27, with a 270 Winchester. 130 grain Winchester "bulk" bullet @3120fps. At the shot he hit the ground and never moved. Bullet entered behind the 3rd rib, blew up the heart and bounced off the spine.

Latest kill 10/2/14 Unit 8, Muzzle loader cow hunt. Biggest one I ever shot 200lbs of boned meat. 300 grain Hornady XTP with 2 pellets of triple 7. Bang flop thru the neck.

As I mentioned earlier of the 18 or 20 elk that I have shot, or been in on the kill, only 2 ran any kind of distance at all. One, a 5X5 Bull was shot with a 7MM Remington Magnum, 154 Grain Hornady Spire Point, @ about 3100FPS, hit behind the right shoulder at 80 yds, the bullet clipped the heart passed thru the left lung, traveled down the left leg and stop at about the 1st joint. It went about 75yds, and dropped. The other was a Muzzle Cow, hit a little to far back in the liver, ran about 200yds, then dropped. The latter cow, was a poor shot on my part.

Jerry

Jerry, my estimation when you gut and skin an animal you lose about half it's weight and when you bone out the meat about half again. The 200 pounds would represent about an 800 pounder hoof weight. Does that sound about right?

No I have never seen a cow that big. That would be a good bull. The 200 lbs of meat, is what Coconino Packers brought me cut up and wrapped. They estimated the actual weight on the hoof @ 620-650 lbs.

That sounds about right to me.

I used to correspond a bit with the late George Hoffman, African PH & designer of the 416 Hoffman who is credited with the inspiration for the 416 RM as well.

Anyway, a few may remember he posted here years back before his untimely death in 2002. He told me he'd killed right at 50+ elk in his life, with the majority of them being taken with the 270 Win and a 150 of some variety. He told me it was his favorite elk medicine and that those that thought it wasn't a potent elk killer needed to put down Outdoor Life and get off the toilet (or words to that effect )

I've only taken two elk with a 270 and 150's, but I can't see how it's not close to ideal.

The bull in the picture I posted here was taken with the 270 and a 150 Partition. He was a big, old bull estimated at 10.5 years old. His teeth were ground flat. He grossed 329, but his horns were on the downhill slide undoubtedly.

My favorite hunting round is the 308 Win and I'll likely spend the rest of my life using it here in Montana. I mostly hunt highcountry elk, and have never found it wanting. It's the most eager-to-please round I've ever worked with and I always say, "it kicks a little and kills a lot."

Certainly, in my experience, the 338 WM with 210 Partitions at 2,950 or the 300 WSM with 180's at 2,950 make a greater impression (ie, visible indication of a hit), and the elk may perhaps die a second or two sooner, but I've not seen any elk in any circumstance that couldn't have been killed as dead with the 308 (or 7-08, or whatever).

Cartridges are more alike than they are different, and the elk's tenacity is greatly exaggerated IMO/IME. Not to say they're not incredibly tough, but they are just flesh and blood after all. Punch the vitals and its light's out.

At the end of the day, you should use a cartridge you love to shoot and in a rifle you love to pack around, not something some gunwriter thinks is "ideal".

I used to use a 338 WM with 210 Partitions because I did (and still do) think it's the best, all-around elk cartridge on the planet. Mine all wore 22" barrels. Thing is, I don't like packing around 8+ lb rifles and IMO a 338 WM should weigh in at 8lbs or more, but I don't like packing a rifle in the mountains over 7.5lbs, scoped, slung, with rounds in the magazine. Soooo, I don't pack a 338 WM anymore.

I usually pack a 6.25 lb Kimber Montana in 308. Pleasant enough to shoot and eminently packable in the wilderness.

Have also noticed, on the wrong side of 50, I don't enjoy getting smacked around by cartridges like I did when I was younger.

Most hunters I've observed would be better off with a 30-06 as a max, and generally even less cartridge would make them better shots and correspondingly better hunters.

But most are loathe to embrace reality.

Here's a couple more points on elk, from my perspective. I would rather hunt and eat elk, than any other game animal.

2 points I'd like to make for the guys that haven't had the opportunity or been as lucky as I to get tags and hunt elk. 1. Nothing beats marksman ship/bullet placement. Anything above .224 will work under these conditions. 2. Get as close as you can, and then even closer yet. I know some western state areas are going to be longer shots than I want to take, still watch the wind and get close.

Jerry

Jerry--the wrappers on the meat would not weigh very much, but I'm wondering did they perhaps add some suet to the hamburger meat? That would throw off my guesstimation. Did I just invent a new word?

no suet in my burger. If a packer adds that to my meat, I never go back to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
no suet in my burger. If a packer adds that to my meat, I never go back to them.

We feel the same. We grind most of it into burger for burgers, meatloaf and meatballs. We work a tablespoon of olive oil per pound into it before we cook it. It's very tender and the olive oil is good for you too!

Chuck: Interesting, I also add olive oil to my elk burger, I also usually add an egg if I am grilling burgers on the BBQ. Otherwise, a little vegetable oil and your usual favorite meat seasoning and you have the best eating there is.

Here's a recipe for crock pot, that I use often.

Flour and brown a chunk of elk, season the flour to taste, put in the crock pot bring up water to just barely cover the meat, then add one package of Lipton Onion Soup Mix. Cook all day, and when you serve it, when it's gone, everyone will be clamoring for more. I even serve this to the unsuspecting I hate game, friends of my wife, and they just love it.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, we'll try it! Both my boys are away at college so I was going to try my luck today (3rd rifle season) by myself, but came down with the flu. I'll try and go later this week. I do have elk leftover from last year though!

Thanks again

Well, the girls-gun got it done. Season over.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Well, the girls-gun got it done. Season over.

Brad!! Nicely done!

Nice. How I wish I had ANY rifle this last archery season!

Rifles I have cleanly killed elk with...all cows

35 Renington 200 grn rn- 90 yards

358 Winchester 225 partition - 115 yards


8x57 195 grn interlock - 120 yards

270 winchester - 150 grn win power point - 175 yards

308 winchester - 165 grn gmx - 195 yards

quote:

Rifles I have cleanly killed elk with...all cows

35 Renington 200 grn rn- 90 yards

358 Winchester 225 partition - 115 yards


8x57 195 grn interlock - 120 yards

270 winchester - 150 grn win power point - 175 yards

308 winchester - 165 grn gmx - 195 yards

I'll add .35 Whelen (301 yards) and .280 Remington (250 yards ) using 225 grain and 160 grain partitions respectively....this year's efforts will be using a .30-06 with 180 grain accubonds

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Rifles I have cleanly killed elk with...all cows


...this year's efforts will be using a .30-06 with 180 grain accubonds

You have arrived!!! But any good cup and core has been doing the job for a loooong time. roger

Personally, I prefer the 180 Partition pushed along @ around 2750fps in the 30-06. Hey, must mean I am a grey beard. LOL!

Jerry

As I have mentioned here on AR before, during my 9 plus years of Elk guiding and outfitting in New Mexico I maintained a 30 cal. minimum for ALL hunters in my elk camps. .308 Win and above for those that want to mention the "lesser" 30's out there. Only had a couple of perspective hunters question or complain about this requirement, and I gladly set them up with other good outfitters I knew and trusted.

I am not saying that elk cannot and have not been taken with caliburs less than .30, just seen enough wounded and maimed elk with lesser ones to opt for this standard for my clients. Simply my rules for my hunts. Use what you like, don't really care when you are on your own adventures.

My personal favorite "elk rifle" happens to be a Pre-64 Model 70 in 300 H & H Magnum with either Barnes TSX or Nosler Partitions in the 180 to 200 grain weights. That's the "final word on elk rifles for me". I personally see no reason, recoil or otherwise why an elk hunter should have a problem with the 30's and above?

Flame on, it's OK by me.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser and Mod 70