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| One of Us |
Just so I am clear, are we talking about a trigger design that was corrected in 1982? Remington has offered to fix any of the older triggers and the current rifles don't have the design flaw. I don't understand why this subject coming up now. | |||
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It is all about money! | |||
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Earlier this year I caught quite a few arrows from many of our so-called experts here at the AR forum when I posted that the Remington M-700 trigger/safety was junk. This problem and one other are nothing new and have been around since before the 1970s. I have personally had a Rem. M-700 drop the firing pin on live ammo (WITHOUT my finger on the trigger) several times and also had the very same thing happen on a M-721 but on a empty chamber. The M-700 incident occured in Colorado on a VERY cold morning, the M-721 occured on a warm day. I have since sold the M-721 and mothballed the M-700. One expert poster here at the forum said my mishaps occured because I wasn't maintaining my triggers. I have 8 pre-MOA triggered Winchester M-70s and I'll be damned if I can see anything to perform maintenance on. However on a Remmy I can see alot of maintenance. I don't have to worry about the M-70 discharging while on safety but I CAN see the M-700 discharging with the safety on due to the fact there is no firing pin block or release. I do carry a loaded round inside my chamber when hunting by myself. The fact that Remington has had this problem with their triggers/safeties is so old that I actually saw it on the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather in the very late 80s. I will say in Remingtons defense of their poor design that every firing pin drop /AD that I have had, seen, or know of has been on a trigger that has been lightened up from factory 20 pound setting.  I will also say that Remington has probably the best public relations team and lawyers in the nation to have kept this such a big secret from so many for so long. Especially with all of the experts out there who choose not to believe others personal bad experiences with such matters. But then again P.T. Barnum was probably right. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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Remington removed the bolt locking feature in 1982. All that does is allow you to open the bolt if it is on safe. The basic design of the trigger is unchanged. He explains the details here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...9411043/m/8561091241 . | |||
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Did this frend contact Remington? Remington [I would think that they would cover there butt] | |||
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We don't even need to ask you questions to know you are a blowhard who knows nothing about firearms. Well other then what your employer Remington's Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Maybe redesigned, but not fixed. I've still seen it happen on post 1982 rifles. | |||
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Might check the Miami Herald's files for that one. Half the people in Miami Dade County fire their 9mm's into the air on national holidays. Someone must've been killed or wounded sometime, because only a fool goes out on the 4th of July when it's raining bullets...and that county is full of fools. | |||
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Sneak peeks at Remington Under Fire-- Sneak Peek RUF Sneak Peek RUF 2 Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Google "Shannon's Law". It was passed here in AZ because of a girl that was killed by stray gunfire into the sky. NRA Endowment Life member CZ 550 American 9.3 X 62 Mauser/ Leupold VX-3 2.5-8 x 36 CZ 550 Safari Classic .458 Lott | |||
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alot has been said on this issue,but to be honest most people grew up running the woods with these rifles from their youth to our old ages and nothing happened and I know our guns were loaded. Next most of us cleaned the barrels, wiped them down and put them away for the next season then as we got older went to work 24/7. We did not have the net back then and know time to watch the tube. Talked to my 86 yr old father and he just about fell over. He planned to give his 700 to his oldest grandson,my mother wants it destroyed, it sucks and everyone has excuses.I called remington,nice but would talk about subject but said to give them the serial number,and i could take it to two places in our state and they would take a look at it.To make it simple what can i do to just fix the prolem and pay for it myself.Like have new trigger putin ect.When i was just a kid in the service a old sgt for some reason always took care of me.He always looked like he just came back from hell.He was always there. One day talking about life he said the one we have to worry about is our own form of goverment.Was he right? | |||
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Sam-- A very good question and comment. NO NEED to destroy anything. The trigger needs to be replaced with either an aftermarket, solid trigger or the new XMark Pro. The XMark PRos might be scarce now but eventually very low cost or free to anyone with an old trigger. There's really not an economical way to repair millions of bad ones, but I'd guess Remington has a retro-fit in the works that uses the old housings. Shilen, Jewel, and Timney are the big three. Rifle Basix has a design I'm very critical of. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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A friend of mine JUST bought a new 700 in .300 WM. He loaded it, took the safety off, and as he did, it fired. He discoved what I have years ago with the 700s; that the trigger adjustment screw had backed out and releasing the safety sends the firing pin forward. That said, I have had the same thing happen with two Winchester mod 70s, just last summer; one when I closed the bolt before I could even get the safety on! They were a friends, and I promptly took the actions out of the stocks, and fixed them. Triggers set too light! The biggest reason that we will no longer be able to own guns in the not so far off future is due to un-savy gun owners that do not understand how to check them for possible malfunctions. The generation that was not brought up with firearms and their workings seems to be totaly dependant on everyone else keeping them safe. AND if they don't 'by God' then they will sue the folks that neglected to keep them safe. I have had a few go off when not expecting it, as you will if you handle them long enough; but I know rule #1 all too well. Never point the gun at anything, at anytime that you are not willing to shoot! I agree that safeties should work correctly. I do not depend on anyone else to make sure mine work; not even the maker. I do it myself. If it does not, I replace it, myself. We all want a crisp, clean, light trigger; then we sue a maker because their adjustable trigger got adjusted too light and goes off when it shouldn't. Now we complain that the makers install heavy, rough, unadjustable triggers in their guns. Nobody wins! Remington may have known about the problem years ago. This still should not relieve us gun owners of the resposibility to be sure what we carry works ourselves. Either that or take up knitting in order to disconnect from those that will eventually make even safe firearms illegal to own. All because of ignorance. I have never heard af a gun accident that did not have something to do with unsafe handling practices in one way or another. I feel very sorry for the kid that was killed and the family in Montana that lost that child. But why in the hell was that rifle pointed at the kid when the safety was taken off safe; working or not????? | |||
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Just re-read the news article about the Montana family. One of the final lines from the boys father say's 'safe gun practices are simply not enough'. Bull crap! IF 'safe handling practices were used, his son would still be with us! Now I'm just plain pissed! | |||
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You got that right.....You and I both know that that rifle was pointed directly at the boy when the safety was removed.....and with a loaded chamber to boot! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Just to keep the record straight. The bullet that killed Gus Barber deflected twice going through aluminum panels and then ricocheted once from the floor. He was not in 'the line of fire' but was out of sight downrange. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Jack, I'll accept that everything you just posted here is true....(three ricochets?) If there was a single incident of injury/death and this was it we wouldn't be having all this discussion about Remington's trigger/sefety issues..... Please don't try to tell me all the injurys and deaths are like this.....it's just too much to believe that the preponderance of injury s are not as I posted above.....muzzle pointed directly at the victim upon removing the safety/closing the bolt. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Five miles? Really? | |||
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I've got one that has gone off multiple times since I purchased it in 1980... once slung over my shoulder and pointed at the ground it went off and the bullet hit inches behind my foot... several other times also after being sent back to the factory supposedly for repair.. a friend borrowed it and it went off while he was unloading it ( and ADL in 06) and it sent a 180 grainer right thru the pick up bed on someone's new Chevy ONE ton custom pick up...right thru both fenders... I haven't sold it because I don't want someone else to inherit my problems.. it has been to the factory 4 times or so... Nowadays the action lives being a single shot varmint rifle chambered in 6mm Rem... | |||
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9:00 PM tonight Wednesday Oct 20th on CNBC. If they get the reporting right or wrong is one thing. I know there is a problem with too many of these guns. Dont forget this is not just about people getting hurt. Yes, that is the worse case. There are ruined hunts and stained pants and close calls. And, No one should pass that all off as user fault. Bullets rickocet in the rocks, up in the air down who knows where, or missed shot on game after a long (potentially expensive) hunt. | |||
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Saw the show. It may be damning. It smells of a very ugly coverup. 75 Lawsuits, deaths, injuries, settlement. Interviews with the inventor and former employees. I am glad I am a Model 70 guy. http://www.cnbc.com/id/39554936/ | |||
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I though CNBC did a good job. Hearing what the rifle designer had to say should be the last word on this subject. I feel a lot better informed after reading this thread and viewing the show. I have been happy with my Model 7, but after getting the documented facts, I may look into an aftermarket trigger. It has obvious to me the M70 had a better safety (direct block on firing pin and 3 position), but that is a big difference from that and knowing the M700 has or had both a bad trigger design and a bad safety. | |||
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The Remington 700 is probably the largest selling bolt action rifle in the USA since the mid 60's. There are 1000's out there. A question I might have, is how many of these guns in question have had their triggers adjusted? I know most folks on these forums tune their guns to their personal liking. I have a 300 Weatherby and back in the mid 80's added a canjar trigger and set it very light; probably well under 1 lb. I closed the bolt one time and it fired. I set that trigger back to about 2 lbs and never had the problem happen again. I realize this is not the same scenario as the Remington issue but sometimes our own tinkering is the cause of our issues, especially if we are not properly trained as was in my case at the time. BTW; I own one model 700; a 243 BDL my father bought for me in 1967. No problems yet? Cross my fingers! EZ | |||
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Just took everything out of my gun safe and could not find even one Remington 700 in there. Just had to be sure. . . . . . . OK, where was I. . . . ?  | |||
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Watched a couple of the clips. Wonder why they attack the person(s) on the show instead of simply defending their product? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Yeah, since 1947.........when for 5.5 cents a rifle they could have fixed it. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I didnt get the see the show but, my dad called me this morning because, last yr while hunting, i had climbed up my stand ( climbing stand). I pulled my ( unloaded) 700 BDL in 30-06 up after i had gotten settled and safety harness adjusted. When daylight was approaching, i went ahead and proceeded to load my rifle.After about an hr I saw a couple deer headed my way, i worked the bolt back and then forward to chamber the round, as i closed the bolt, thank God i had it pointed towards the top of the trees, Ka-Bloom. The gun fired. I was like, wth just happened, how did i do that? I opened the magazine dropped all the shells out pulled out the bolt, lowered my rifle to the ground and down the tree i went. Got back to the house and without loading the rifle i have tried and tried all sorts of ways to get it to repeat this. i cant make it do it. Had it checked, gunsmith said its at 9 pounds and he couldnt get it to do it either. I do know with 100% certainty i did NOT have my finger on the trigger when this happened so this is very interesting to me when my dad called me about it. | |||
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There was no correction of the trigger design in '82. They just removed the bolt lock on the safety so one could open the bolt W/the safety on. Most of the problems occured when the safety was switched of for unloding the chamber. That happened to me in 1998 although @ the time I thought that somehow, no matter how unlikely, I had gotten a button on my coat into ther trigger gaurd. Even though that would have been highly unlikely, I never dreamed a M700 could/would go off just by releasing the safety If they could have just re-designed the safety so you could fire the gun W/the safety on that would have been a lot better.....right? GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Interesting discussion, fairly typical of AR. There are two issues: 1. The claim that the Remington 700 can discharge a loaded round without pressing the trigger. 2. The damage that can ensue when this happens. The two are NOT the same. Thus the fact that a gun can discharge without pressing the trigger is, to me at least, a hazard, whether or not someone is killed or injured when this occurs. FACT, the Rem 700 HAS discharged without pressing the trigger. Those geniuses who say otherwise should see the program! The USMC demonstrated this repeatedly by chambering a round and then touching the bolt handle. NO finger on the trigger. NO button caught in the trigger. Remington's response is to say that this is due to "improper maintenance". I assume this means that the Army and USMC do not know how to maintain their Rem 700 rifles? If so, perhaps some of the gurus on this forum should teach them how? Proper gun handling is one thing. It certainly reduces the negative consequences of an AD. However, these ADs are NOT caused by improper gun handling ie. they would and have occurred even with proper gun handling. However because no one was killed or hurt, the problem seems to have been ignored. FWIW, I have several Remingtons which I love. A Rem 700 HB in 308, a Rem Classic in 6.5x55 and a couple of Rem 788's. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Just to make my previous post clear: @ the time I did not see how in the world my M700 ADL could have possibly discharged just by taking it off "safe". That is why I thought it HAD to be a button inadvertantly pressing on the trigger. I really didn't think that was likely, but I rationalized that as there's just NO WAY a gun should go off on it's own, it had to be something I did. I never really believed my coat button was the culprit, but what else could it have been? I never trusted that gun after that & since it wasn't a spectacualrly accurate piece, (OK, but nothing to write home about)I traded it for a M700 Moauntain Rifle DBM less than a year later. I still have that M700 Mountain Rifle. Years later, after reading some of Jacks posts a few years back, I started to realize that by golly, that gun did go off on it's own when I flipped the safety off! BTW, That Mountain Rifle I tradewd the ADL for IS very accurate, right out of the box. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Wildcat, I wasn't jabbing at you. Vapodog made the same claim on the first page of this thread. I appreciate your honesty. The Blaser folks had the same apoplectic fit when claims were made about Blasers "blowing up". it was always the fault of the ammunition! We seem to generally first assumes that it is OUR fault rather than believe that something is wrong with our favorite whatever. Yes, I have a Blaser R93! Interestingly enough, I have a Savage 110FP in 223 which I used for F class matches. I decided that I would lighten the trigger. I followed the instructions from Savage, tested it out, worked like a champ. I took it to the next match quite sure that I would now win or place. I scratched myself because once the match started, the rifle would fire when I closed the bolt! I did not kill or injure anyone. The gun was safely pointing down range, but it DID happen, and happened repeatedly. According to some posters, this is OK because no one was hurt.I got together with a fellow Savage shooter and the only thing we did was to make the trigger pull a bit heavier. It has not "failed" since. My Rem 700 HB has had a trigger job by Neil Jones and I have not experienced the problems described in the program. However, unlike some on this forum I do not conclude that therefore it cannot happen and that these other folks are all unsafe, incompetent liars! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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A .50 cal? I can believe that. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Just to be clear. I don't think a M-70 type 3-pos safety would make 1 iota of difference if the trigger connector was dislodged. The gun would still fire on the safety being turned off. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Not true, The M70 could be safely unloaded the M700 could not. More the older M700, but even the current M700 safety does not block the firing pin. Unfortunately there are two design problems with the M700. This was explained by the gun designer himself on the cnbc interview. First the safety design and 2nd the trigger design. And then with the safety there were two issues there. A Friggin Nightmare! The M70 safety has two advantages over the old M700 safety. One can both unload or carry with a round chambered in reasonable safety. Because: 1. It directly blocks the firing pin. 2. Allows the gun to be unloaded with safety on. I agree, when you go off safe with any loaded gun you are at the mercy of the trigger. | |||
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amen to that. Anyone who doesnt have the sense to point a gun in a safe direction when loading it or unloading it isnt going to be saved by any safety device. All this is is anohter way for the antis to get a dig in on a gun company. No differnt then the ignorant sob who sued bob baker of fa because he shot himself in the leg with his handgun. Last time i heard most bolt actions guns go off when you pull the trigger. JUST DONT PULL THE TRIGGER if you dont want it to go off. I think 3 postition safetys are no dumber then smith and wesson putting key locks on sixguns.
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FourBore--- Just a gentle correction. The M-700 safety DOES block the firing pin, it just does it from below and not from the shroud. I invite everyone to do this just once. Carry your rifle around for an hour with this in mind-- It CAN fire at any moment. Be aware of the muzzle at every second. What is going to be hit if it fires at THAT split second. Try it and be honest with yourself. Out of that hour how many times is the actually gun safe. You have to remember, people have been shot upstairs, downstairs, due to richochets, due to deflected bullet paths (Anderson of the program and Barber), and by falling bullets. WHERE is 'safe' if the gun fires without your control? Where does corporate responsibility come into play? Shooters are, for the most part, some of the safest sportsmen on the planet even though they carry deadly force around with them as they 'play'. We ARE aware of firearms safety and the thousands of complaints but relatively few injuries prove it. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Bullshit!!!!! Jack, your attempt to levy fourth standard deviation possibilities is misconstruing the truth and it just needs to be said.....If the number of times the rifle was pointed directly at a (sadly unfortunate) individual at the time of releasing the safety or closing the bolt was deleted from the record, this thread and others like it would never have come to pass. Your attempt to satinize Remington for the unfortunate acts of personal firearms behavior is deplorable! It's certainly fair to criticize Remington for failure to design a three position safety as so many firearms companys have done (going all the way back to the 1890s) such that one may load and unload the firearm while the safety is on is realistic.....other statements about Remington may also be correct and worthy of note but your posts I've read here and on the gunsmithing forum lead me to believe you're simply a "paid agitator". My solution?.....see the next post! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Those that most need to know are the least likely to listen. Exhibit One. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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