As to the condition not being repeatable, in my case it never happened again and I shot that particular M24 for four years.

I bought a used 700 30-06 in the early 80s it discharged on me after I disengaged the safety and moved the bolt handle just a fraction of an inch. I took the rifle back to the dealer I bought it from and he sent it to his gunsmith and had the trigger adjusted. I had the same thing happen again I would not own another 700. I have had many different brands of rifles over the years and most of them were not new with no problems. My 700 did not fire every time I released the safety and I do not know if the trigger had been messed with before I bought it but I want nothing to do with a firearm that discharges without pulling the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Because that bullet has to come down somewhere.

OK....I'll give you that.....

Can you tell me one documented case of a fatality caused by a bullet falling from the sky?

While it wasn't a fatality a casino worker was hit by a 30 caliber bullet (presumably) 7.62x39 in Las Vegas during New Years. The angle at which the guy was shot could have only come from a random shot. The bullet entered the shoulder from above breaking the scapula and coming to rest just under the bone. My friend was one of the first responding police officers to the scene.

You know, it's hard not to be a bit cynical. Of course, if it happened to me or someone I love, I would feel very bad. BUT, when someone is hit by a bullet randomly fired into the air, IMO, it means God has got a real case of the Ass toward you and you're lucky if, after being shot, you don't stumble in front of a speeding locomotive.
I understand the need to preach/teach gun safety and responsible gun handling but, let's get real, the sort of person that would fire into the air isn't likely to have any sort of gun training other than what he sees on TV or learns in a video parlour. You know, where most of the little hoodlums learn how to drive.

Isn't it time for this thread to die?

What a waste!

quote:

Originally posted by Scotch Bonnet:
Isn't it time for this thread to die?

So to bring that about you make a post bringing it to the top?

quote:

Originally posted by Jack Belk:
Sam-- A very good question and comment.

NO NEED to destroy anything. The trigger needs to be replaced with either an aftermarket, solid trigger or the new XMark Pro. The XMark PRos might be scarce now but eventually very low cost or free to anyone with an old trigger. There's really not an economical way to repair millions of bad ones, but I'd guess Remington has a retro-fit in the works that uses the old housings.

Shilen, Jewel, and Timney are the big three. Rifle Basix has a design I'm very critical of.

Each of my two sons have a Remington 700 BDL in 270 (one right handed, one left handed). I hunted with the right handed one for almost 30 years before handing it down to one of my sons. The other left handed gun was handed down by my father in-law (I bought it for him in 1989). Both triggers have been worked on by Norm Thompson, a master gunsmith and Remington trigger expert, sadly he has passed on. I just watched the show "Remington Under Fire". My boys have been well schooled in gun safety and demonstrate it every time we go out and shoot. One's 22 and in the 3rd Ranger Battalion, the other is 18. Still, I'm concerned. My boys love their rifles and they've accounted for a lot of game. Should I replace the triggers with Shilen triggers and if so, who would you rcecommend to do the work and what will it cost. There's no way my boys would sell the rifles.

Thanks,

Chuck

This may get me kicked off this site,But I have something to say..Wow.after reading 6 pages of BS. It's funny if theres a problem no one thinks twice about it, But when a lawsuite is filed.Everyone jumps on board (oh what can I get out of them) It seems to me (after the press release) Everyone wants a paycheck !!
As A group of reloaders,gunsmiths tinkerers,If it's broke then we fix it! or have it fixed..And we are above the (normal public) This world is nothing more than a sue happy culture,Because someone elses money must make some (of the people) happy. If it is that big of a problem Remington should of fixed it !!(shame on them) The stories at this weekends gunshow about the subject was as boring as the last 6 pages! To make It very simple.Alot more guns,more problems,No law suits, So not a problem!!.. I shoot with 20 friends, none or myself have had any problems with ANY remington of any model. I have had a family member killed by a 700,accidental discharge !! But it was by an owner adjusted trigger.So DONT PREACH TO ME

I'm deaf in one ear because of savage. one discharge in the house because of 1 loaded gun (no forgiveness) and 2 they did not know how to uncock a 99 savage.Hunting,,,savage 110 loaded,closed bolt fired!!(gunsmith adjusted trigger)Luckily both operators were smart enough to have the rifle pointed in a safe direction before both mishaps. SO should I leave out some details and sue the makers of the 99 savage or the makers of the 110 savage? And have my topic, savage under fire,finally ????? Mabey I'll get 7 pages!!

Chuck-- Any good shop can install a Shilen trigger for you, or you can send the rifle back to Remington for the XMarkPro. Remington's guy tells me they will not be making the XMP trigger available for gunsmith installation. I've registered my displeasure at that decision.

ty-falcon-- I've never 'bashed' Remington but I have explained how their unique trigger works and how it fails. You can utilize the information or not. Your choice.
RemWalkerExplanation

Here's testimony to up to 200 failures of brand new, factory adjusted and sealed triggers with no poor maintenance problems or idiots with screwdrivers making them fail firing in factory test.
complaints and failures
This figure only covers 2002 to present and for four of those years the XMark Pro has been produced and installed in many 700s.
According to this Remington witness, between 5000 and 10,000 people have written to Remington complaining of the same thing! That only covers '72 to present.
Sworn testimony, current case, referenced above. At what point is evidence good enough?

Consider this, please-- A fire on safety release is analogous to a hand grenade exploding when the pin is pulled. Do you think 200 of them in 8 years would be acceptable by military standards? Why is it apparently acceptable to you?

Reality is unhandy sometimes but it sure is durable.

quote:

A fire on safety release is analogous to a hand grenade exploding when the pin is pulled.

A hand grenade is not directed.....a rifle is. They are not at all analogous!

quote:

Originally posted by Jack Belk:
Chuck-- Any good shop can install a Shilen trigger for you, or you can send the rifle back to Remington for the XMarkPro. Remington's guy tells me they will not be making the XMP trigger available for gunsmith installation. I've registered my displeasure at that decision.

ty-falcon-- I've never 'bashed' Remington but I have explained how their unique trigger works and how it fails. You can utilize the information or not. Your choice.
RemWalkerExplanation

Here's testimony to up to 200 failures of brand new, factory adjusted and sealed triggers with no poor maintenance problems or idiots with screwdrivers making them fail firing in factory test.
complaints and failures
This figure only covers 2002 to present and for four of those years the XMark Pro has been produced and installed in many 700s.
According to this Remington witness, between 5000 and 10,000 people have written to Remington complaining of the same thing! That only covers '72 to present.
Sworn testimony, current case, referenced above. At what point is evidence good enough?

Consider this, please-- A fire on safety release is analogous to a hand grenade exploding when the pin is pulled. Do you think 200 of them in 8 years would be acceptable by military standards? Why is it apparently acceptable to you?

Reality is unhandy sometimes but it sure is durable.

Politics aside, $100 each for the trigger plus gunsmithing cost is a small price to pay for my son's safety. If it was just me I wouldn't worry, just couldn't live with myself if they got hurt and I could've prevented it for $150.

Is the Shilen trigger an excellent one? I would imagine so but would like to hear opinions. Or should I start a separate thread?

quote:

Originally posted by Jack Belk:
...I've never 'bashed' Remington but I have explained how their unique trigger works and how it fails. ...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

A fire on safety release is analogous to a hand grenade exploding when the pin is pulled.

A hand grenade is not directed.....a rifle is. They are not at all analogous!

I thought it was a petty good analogy. You release the safety in preparation of firing, you pull the pin in preparation of throwing and exploding. Each act is the last act prior to use BUT NOT THE FINAL ACT .

Don't know what you mean by "directed" but it seems irrelevant.

I agree with vapodog! The rifle is a "mechanical TOOL" and thus prone to problems like a car, axe, lawnmower etc, etc, etc!!!! There is NO room in the field [or anywhere else for that matter] for firearm handling of an unsafe manner. You have to know at all times what is in front of the muzzle. Anything else is on the same level as a 15 year old kid with a hot date, a bottle of booze and a fully blown Mustang!! I [personally] do not want to kill anyone the rest of my life and handle firearms in a manner so this will not happen. Also will NOT hunt/shoot/etc with anyone who DOESN`T. John Wayne told me once in Hawaii-- "I`ll hunt with anyone---ONCE!" He was a tyrant on safety with firearms.
Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
I agree with vapodog! The rifle is a "mechanical TOOL" and thus prone to problems like a car, axe, lawnmower etc, etc, etc!!!! There is NO room in the field [or anywhere else for that matter] for firearm handling of an unsafe manner. You have to know at all times what is in front of the muzzle. Anything else is on the same level as a 15 year old kid with a hot date, a bottle of booze and a fully blown Mustang!! I [personally] do not want to kill anyone the rest of my life and handle firearms in a manner so this will not happen. Also will NOT hunt/shoot/etc with anyone who DOESN`T. John Wayne told me once in Hawaii-- "I`ll hunt with anyone---ONCE!" He was a tyrant on safety with firearms.
Aloha, Mark

If you think that you and your hunting/shooting friends have 100% perfect muzzle control 100% of the time, then you are either arrogant or naive. Both of these conditions are FAR more dangerous than shooters who can and do both take accurate stock of their and their friend's gun handling. This topic has brought out more "holier than thau" talk across internet gun boards than anything else I have ever seen since the internet gun boards got started.

Do you honestly think both the dead, injured, and accidental shooters thought they and everyone around them were gun slobs who posed a hazzard to anyone within a couple miles of where they were standing? If I watched you in the home, field and at the range I gurantee you that I can find at least one instance where your muzzle is not pointed at something at soemthing you would want to shoot

BTW-your analagy is ass-backwards. THe 15 year old in your example thinks he is invincible, even though folks around him, such as yourself, can see that he is arrogantly overestimating himself and his ability to dodge trouble. His arrogance and ignorarance will still usually get him by most of the time. But in a minority of times it results in a disaster of some form and degree.

In skydiving there is a saying that the absolute worst thing that can happen to a person is for them to make an unsafe maneuver and get away with it Scott Free. It goes to their head and they think they are superior to others who get hurt/die. they can often get away with it mulitpile times. Their "proven safety record" causes them to get a holier than thou attitude. Then it catches up with them and they either die, kill someone else, or seriously injure themselves

quote:

Don't know what you mean by "directed" but it seems irrelevant.

When one releases the safety of a firearm in preparation for firing....if there is a discharge it is directed in the direction of the barrel....and this is controllable regardless of the mechanical failure.

With a hand grenade there is no direction....

IMO this is extremely relevant.

Jack, you are full of sh*t. Your complaint info comes from a blog???? 99.99999999 1/2 percent of blog stuff is horse ca-ca. I called Remington and asked about the ENORMOUS amount owed by them due to lawsuits over faulty triggers. Also asked to speak to their trigger complaint department. Also demanded to be allowed to speak to their trigger/legal team.
Also insisted I talk to the CEO.
Guess what?? They more or less told me to get lost. They claim they don't have any trigger/safety/accidental discharge problems; period! ALL lawyer/legal stuff, past and present, is STRICTLY confidential, and off limits. All Remington 700 series rifles are magnificent, and they have millions of satisfied customers. They anticipate owning a large percentage of the centerfire market in the future, due to the great reputation, (accuracy, dependability, SAFETY,) that Remington enjoys.
Don't know where you get all your inside information. Don't know your Remington trigger credentials..........
By the way.... Did you ever get that lazer eye thing done? I donated a small check for your cause, long ago............ Grant.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
If you think that you and your hunting/shooting friends have 100% perfect muzzle control 100% of the time, then you are either arrogant or naive.

Or very badly mistaken!

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
If I watched you in the home, field and at the range I gurantee you that I can find at least one instance where your muzzle is not pointed at something at soemthing you would want to shoot

Having shot both smallbore and highpower rifle competition for over 25 years, both in the military and as a civilian (all under very controlled safety conditions) and having served in the capacity of RSO for a dozen years, I can guarantee that what Marc says is absolutely true.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
In skydiving there is a saying that the absolute worst thing that can happen to a person is for them to make an unsafe maneuver and get away with it Scott Free. It goes to their head and they think they are superior to others who get hurt/die.

As I have previously stated, I have experienced an FRS with a brand new 40XC. While I have never had a similar experience with any other rifle, I still do not trust mechanical safeties and closely watch my muzzle as well as those with whom I hunt. I will be the first to admit that I cannot claim 100% safe muzzle control 100% of the time and would suggest that if one can, perhaps one should watch with a bit more critical eye .

Just because one has never experienced an FRS with their rifle does not mean it cannot happen.

Hopefully this thread will raise safety awareness and in that respect it can be very beneficial.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Hopefully this thread will raise safety awareness and in that respect it can be very beneficial.

Amen to that!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Don't know what you mean by "directed" but it seems irrelevant.

When one releases the safety of a firearm in preparation for firing....if there is a discharge it is directed in the direction of the barrel....and this is controllable regardless of the mechanical failure.

With a hand grenade there is no direction....

IMO this is extremely relevant.

What you say is not inaccurate if standing on it's own. However that is not the point.

To somehow EXCUSE a FSR because you SHOULD be pointing your rifle in a safe direction is faulty logic. Why so many people make that statement with regards to this issue is beyond me. It matters not wither Remington has an issue or not, we all should be able to agree that a FSR or any other unintended discharge is unacceptable.

That is Jack's point and thus his analogy. You would never pass off as acceptable a grenade going off by simply pulling the safety pin. Why would you accept a rifle firing by taking it "off" safe and excusing it with the statement "if you have proper muzzle control it doesn't matter"?

PROPER MUZZLE CONTROL IS UNRELATED TO THE ISSUE.

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
I agree with vapodog! The rifle is a "mechanical TOOL" and thus prone to problems like a car, axe, lawnmower etc, etc, etc!!!!

The safety pin on a grenade isn't a mechanical tool?

MSNBC must be reading this thread with glee.

Grant- I did get cataract surgery and I sincerely appreciate it.

The 'blog' is a quote from sworn testimony taken from Remington's designated representative on Nov. 10, 2010 by the lawyer who owns the website.
"Confidential" is up to the judge who will rule soon, I'm sure.

A hand grenade of the infantry HE variety has a 'safety'. It's the cotter pin that blocks the firing pin. (some now have a secondary on the lever. Some guns have neither). The 'trigger' is the spring-loaded lever on the side, so, in gunsmithing terms, it is a 'release trigger' that has a 4 to 5 second delay built in. (the ultimate in clay target shooting, huh?)

A 'fire on safety release' in a rifle expends the energy of the ammo somewhere. So would a grenade if it fired as the pin is pulled. The difference is the 100% assurance its the puller that dies in the case of a grenade.

The point is, mechanical things fail. A well designed gun, like a well designed grenade, fails by NOT FIRING, not by firing without control of the 'shooter'. It's called 'fail safe' and it's been the standard in some guns since 1898.
In 1966-67 when I was a training NCO that worked grenade ranges at Ft. Benning several times, it was said one in a thousand M-26s would 'fail'...by not exploding after six seconds. (4 to 5, minus 0, plus 1 was the spec.)

The ONLY way a gun is safe is for the handler to know where the bullet will land. (Always be sure of your backstop.)

The gun has no sense of direction or timing. The shooter controls both by sights and a trigger.

Those that have never had an AD might not understand this, but There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.

Those that have experienced an AD knows the chill in your gut that last for hours and then decades because you really don't know where that bullet went.

Gun safety relies on safe people and safe guns. People can and do make a lot of difference, but the safest shooter on the planet with an unsafe gun is an UNsafe shooter!

I welcome all rebuttals to the paper posted HERE.

Remington says that new, clean, adjusted and sealed triggers fail. If you don't like my explanation of how that occurs, tell me where I'm mistaken and we can debate it. It is simple lever and cam mechanics, no tricks but there is a hidden part that controls the trigger. If you can understand a 'church key' beer bottle opener and a screw-on cap you have all the mechanical knowledge you need to understand the trigger.

That so many refuse to look at the subject objectively is just amazing to me and has been for ten years or more.

I used to tell my gunsmithing students that I can teach what they ask, but I can't create the curiosity about the subject it takes to make a really good gunsmith. It takes that curiosity to 'get' the nuances of firearms design.

Jack, does installing the Shilen trigger fix the Rem 700 AD problem?

Thanks,

Chuck

A Shilen trigger does not have a connector and solves the 'Remington problem' quite nicely with a solid trigger, well fit and well made.

Thanks so much Jack, Kevin Weaver in Colorado Springs is my local gunsmith now that Norm Thompson has passed away. I'll see if he'll take on the job of installing them.

Thanks much!

Chuck

My buddy bought a Rem. 700 Buckmaster in 300 win. mag last year, would his rifle have the new trigger , safety assembly in it or would have the " Walker" trigger mechanism. I have my doubt's Remington would have stated a certain serieal number as to when the switch would have been made, but if so, anyone know what it is. Thank's.

If the front of the trigger is slick, no grooves, it is an XMark Pro and a very good trigger.

Jack,

Thanks for all you've done to promote safety with the foolish Remington design. One would hope that it is eventually eliminated.

I will say that I have always considered most rifle safeties a joke, and have mostly not bothered to learn which ones are actually functional. Since I don't use them (I seldom use a rifle other than at a KD range), it's almost a non-issue for me, but I had a good friend who died because he foolishly ignored traditional safety procedures and kept a loaded lever-action rifle in the house with a round in the chamber. Also because he had it propped up against a wall and kicked it in a fit of anger.

Anyway, keep up the good work, and illegitimi non carborundum.

Remington's side of the story:

http://www.remington700.tv/#/home

Mine only go off when I pull the trigger, that's strange..................

I don't walk around with one in the pipe!

All my "friends" that claimed to have this problem had adjusted their triggers to IMO unsafe release weights. They also had never cleaned the crap out of their trigger assemblies. Nothing wrong with Remington triggers if maintained and properly cleaned.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Mine only go off when I pull the trigger, that's strange..................

Thus far..................

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
...Nothing wrong with Remington triggers if maintained and properly cleaned.

Ah yes, one who has not been PT Barnumed by belk.

I've been present during two accidental discharges with Remingington 700's. Either the operators were idiots or the carnival barker is Remington Arms Company.

I select option 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
...Nothing wrong with Remington triggers if maintained and properly cleaned.

Ah yes, one who has not been PT Barnumed by belk.

How does one clean and maintain the Walker trigger if all moving parts are enclosed and thus concealed by the housing and touching the trigger in any way voids the warranty? Sure seems like a catch 22 to me.

Remington provides information on how to properly maintain their trigger.

It's on pages 12-14 of the manual I have...it does not void the warranty. Adjusting the trigger voids the warranty.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Remington provides information on how to properly maintain their trigger.

It's on pages 12-14 of the manual I have...it does not void the warranty. Adjusting the trigger voids the warranty.

I have in my possession a RWT. I see no way to properly inspect, clean and lubricate it without disassembly.