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This makes it then pretty simple, not so? Remington confessed, and that is the way it is. If a safety is not safe, it ain't no safety. Warrior | |||
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 Quite so, well said.The latter part of the above paragraph is just a plain excuse that does not hold any water and I am surprised that it was even offered as a plausible reason. Just a flimsy excuse. Warrior | |||
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Had a customer tell me a story about a friend of hers that came over to their place this past weekend to let his 7-year old daughter shoot her first deer. The man and his daughter were in a tree stand, with the intention of her shooting a doe. The man spotted a coyote at about 200 yards and decided to shoot it himself. When he picked up the rifle and switched off the safety, the Rem 700 fired in the direction of the coyote, but up towards the top of the treeline. It scared the bejesus out of both him and his daughter on her first deer hunt. He was confused as to what happened as his finger was no where near the trigger. He loaded another round, and switched off the safety again to double check the gun, and the gun discharged again. They discontinued their hunt and was unaware of the issues with the walker triggers. They later found out about the problems while searching on line for answers to his problem. There had never been a trigger job done on this gun. It's a real issue and not just myth or user error. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Warrior- The design defect is in the trigger mechanism, not the safety. The Remington Walker Trigger (RWT) has a unique design in that it has the additional component called the “connector.” This is why Remington has repeatedly been sued over AD’s with RWT equipped rifles and the Remington guns containing conventional trigger designs have only a fraction of the complaints about improper trigger operation. The safety is often part of many of the AD’s, but the actual problem is the trigger. Hot Core- I am confused about a few things and am hoping you can clarify them for me. “I have no desire to argue with you” can be read as me having challenged you to an argument. I in no way meant that to come across as me wanting to argue or fight with you, or anyone else for that matter. If that is the way folks are reading it then I sincerely apologize for not being clearer in my original post. I simply asked some basic questions with no ulterior motive. Again, please forgive me if it came across as me trying to fight or argue in any way. I really was serious am genuinely interested in what you have to say on the various points. You have always been one of the very first responders when someone makes a point/argument saying something derogatory about the RWT and you confidently state your belief that your view of each point is correct. I am genuinely interested in your views. I know many AR members in person and most, if not all, have heard me say that I am most definitely NOT a smart man. I like to listen to all sides of issues. Your passionate defenses of the RWT design lead me to believe that you have a fair amount of experience related to all or at least some of the topics related to gun design/engineering/Remington/triggers, etc. In my previous post I was only trying to learn the basis for your compassionate conviction of the merits of the RWT. I swear to God I am just interested in this, with no devious or deceitful intentions. So to try again: 1. What are your educational and professional credentials? 2. Have you ever, do you currently, will you in the future, or do you at least to hope to in the future earn money from Remington or in some manner related to the RWT issue? 3. What are your explanations for the FBO’s, FBC’s, and FSR’s on rifles equipped with the RWT? 4. What is your explanation for the fact that the people who claim the RWT design was responsible for their FBO’s, FBC’s, and FSR’s do not have these unintentional discharges when they use their other firearms that do not contain the unique RWT, but rather use a conventional trigger design? 5. What is your opinion of the fact that Remington has testified under oath that they have experienced FBO’s, FBC’s, and FSR’s from the time the prototype rifles were built through to the latest rifles with the uniquely designed RWT’s off the assembly line, but have as of yet to testify that these AD’s occur with their other guns that have conventional trigger designs? 6. What is your opinion of the scores (in the hundreds now?) of millions of dollars Remington has paid out in suits related to AD’s in rifles with the RWT? 7. Are you willing to tell us your name and where you live? The last question may seem strange and indeed is the least important one on the list. I only ask it because you call out people by name and at times go after them fairly hard on a personal level. The latest instance comparing Belk to “pelosi/boxer/schumer/brady.” To me it only seems fair that if a man is making derogatory comments about another man then he should be enough of a gentleman to give his name, as well as his city and state of residence. It is the internet equivalent of looking a man in the eyeballs when you say something bad about him. I know I am from a family who beat into us the manners and values of the Deep South and not everyone feels this way. This is especially true with the Gen Y’ers and Millennials. And with those two generations I am not saying it is wrong, only that it is different than what I was brought up to do. With you keeping your identity secret I have no idea even how old you are or where you grew up. So that is it in a nutshell - just black and white questions with no shades of grey secret or underhanded intentions. And again, I sincerely apologize if I wrote my last post in a manner that caused you to believe I was trying to argue or start a fight or pissing match. I just want to know why the RWT’s most passionate defender on AR has formed his conclusions about the design of the RWT, the gun owners who had the AD’s, and Remington’s response to the issue. I will swear on a Bible that I am just asking you to help me understand why you have formed your opinion “I know you are wrong, so that is all that matters to me.” | |||
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Having read just about every slant presented here, all I can say is that it seems the courts will settle it. I sure wish there was a better way. | |||
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If the rifle goes off due to the safety its Remingtons fault. If someone gets hurt in the process its the gun weilders fault. The holder of the rifle controls where the muzzle is pointed not some company that made the rifle. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I can't believe how many people jumped on Remington. the facts will come out in court. http://remington700.tv/#/home | |||
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And we, the end users, will probably be the ones most affected. The old trickle down theory. | |||
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Hot Core- You have told me that I am wrong and am still asking you to help me understand what I am not told me what parts of statemetns I ahve said are incorrect. I truly am trying to look at this issue from every angle. I see you have made numerous psots on AR since you told me that I am wrong and you are right and that is all that matters to you. Please reply to my questions above. Please trust me when I say I would love to be wrong in this issue. My first centerfire rifle was a M700 in 1982. I looked at many calibers of M700's and other brands of rifles as well. But I kept coming back to the M700. This was huge decision for me at the time. y the time I was in high school i knew who Mr. Walker was and knew of his innovations in the firearms field. At one point my dream job would be to work for Remington after getting out of engineering school. I am asking anyone who posts in reply to this post to please just stick to facts, data, credentials, etc. related to the alledged issue with the RWT. I am on my knees, begging everyone to not make personal attacks or blanket derogatroy statements. Please be professional and polite with your posts. This issue is huge and has the potential to cripple the gun industry, bankrupt companies, cause the loss of thousands of jobs, give ammunition to the anti-gunners, and turn many of the "gun neutral" people into anti-gunners. If there really is an issue with the RWT design, and if it was known to be defective by Remington, then it will at least indirectly affect every gun owner in the US. I will be brutally honest and tell everyone that I am scared. If Remington knew/knows there is/was a problem and did not fix it, I can easily see the Supreme Court making a ruling that would open the Second Ammendment to all sorts of attacks for the anti-gunners. I would love nothing more that for my beliefs about the RWT to be wrong. | |||
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Last month at a rifle match, I was discussing this topic with a fellow competitor. He made the claim that if you were to go Ruger, Winchester, Savage, any maker of rifles, they would have filing cabinets full of accidental discharges of their bolt rifles. That would be interesting to know, but to date, I have not heard of accidental discharges with other brands. Has anyone had an accidental discharges with other bolt action brands that could be traced to the trigger mechanism? I would like to ignore lever actions as I have heard of accidental discharges with lever action rifles. Guys losing control of the hammer on the way to half cock or leaving the hammer down on a loaded round. | |||
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Slamfire-- I probably hear of more ADs than anyone on this board, so I'll answer. The ratio is about twenty to one Remington complaints. Of the ADs I investigate involving other makes and models, 100% of them has been explained by either action of the shooter or alteration or bad adjustment of parts. Those aren't cases a lawyer is interested in. Your mention of 'slip-offs' of single-action revolvers and other exposed hammer firearms is a good example of shooter-caused failures. Mechanically the gun did exactly what it was supposed to do-- shoot when the trigger was pulled. The shooter had the trigger pulled at the wrong time. That's not the gun's fault and is not a defect in design. The simple standard is-- The trigger fires the gun, the safety prevents it. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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In the last 45 years I've owned a lot of firerarms. I've only ever had ONE AD that could be attributed to the firearm. Guess what make & model it was. That being said, I have, when adjusting Timney triggers on M98 actions, had the striker fall on bolt closing when over-travel was adjusted too closely. That is a mal-adjustment problem, NOT an inherant design flaw. It also occured on empty chambers @ my work bench & it was not entirely unexpected. I'm sure that if I had closed the bolt W/the 3-pos safety in the 2nd "safe" (not locking the bolt) position, it would have dropped the striker on flipping the safety off. That is na whole nuther can of worms though. The M700 ADL that ADed on safety off had been carried several hours while hunting. When I got to my car, I flipped the safety off to cycle the bolt. (empty the chamber)It was a pre 1982 specimine that had the bolt locking safety. Boom! I did have the gun pointed in a "SAFE" direction, down towards the ground, but I did nearly shoot a hole in the back of my car, & luckily, the ground was soft or who knows what damage might have occured due to a ricochet. Remington's answer/solution of eliminating the bolt lock instead of addressing the trigger issue was/is IMO ludicrous. AND NO, A 3-POS SAFETY IS NOT A SOLUTION EITHER! "Murphy's Law" has just caught up W/Remington pure & simple. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I too have adjusted target triggers too light where they would "follow". I usually catch this in rapid fire practice, but it has happened to me in a rifle match. When the cocking piece hits the sear hard enough to cause an over ride, and I have seen a number of these during matches, I have yet to see or experience an accidental discharge. Apparently the firing pin does not move quickly enough as the firing pin sear rides the cocking cam groove down to set off primers. Not to say it has not happened, and I do not consider firing pin "following" safe at all. And I do not consider that a "fault" of the trigger mechanism. Over ride triggers are balanced affairs and you reduce the spring tension such that the sear is over ridden, that is a user problem, not a design problem. The Remington trigger apparently holds the firing pin back and then lets go. That is enough energy for AD's to occur. I consider it unacceptable to have a trigger mechanism which fires the rifle when the safety is taken off. Let me say I am not a fan of over ride triggers, nor am I fan of sear blocking safeties. I like safeties that positively cam and hold the firing pin back. The great M98 safety and the M70 safety are excellent and safe designs. However if the sear adjustment is improper, when the safety is released you can get an over ride as you have noted. I think the original M70 trigger to be the best over ride trigger for a hunting rifle ever designed. Too bad it is out of production. 
I have lots of over travel in my triggers. I found on heavily recoiling rifles where I adjusted the triggers with minimum over travel, my trigger finger got bruised. I have read lots of material from gun writers who claim that limited over travel is needed for accuracy. I totally disagree. Having shot lots of cleans with M1's, M1a's, and AR15's, all of which have plenty of over travel, a consistent trigger pull is far more important than any over travel adjustment. If you hit the trigger too hard, that bullet is going south, regardless of your over travel adjustment. Still I am hoping to hear of AD's from other mechanisms that were properly set up, or AD's that came from factory adjusted triggers. | |||
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Yawn, I am going to bed. Tired of waiting up for ol HotCore to respond. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Not sure what this has to do with anything but in the late 80's I bought a new Mdl 70 Winchester in 30-06. Real nice looking rifle and fairly accurate but when you would take the safety off it would fire. I thought I had at first stupidly had my finger on the trigger so in all test after that it would fire when the safety was released without ever touching the trigger. I call Winchester and they said send it to Walter Craig (Wholesaler) for repair. I sent it to them with a detailed letter on what was going on and got it back about a week and half later saying all was well and I shouldn't have anymore problems with my front sight. I thought there wasn't a front sight on it when I bought it so I double checked and low and behold there still wasn't a front sight on it. LOL. Wasn't even any screw holes to put one. I checked the safety and it would still go bang when the safety was released without touching the trigger. I called the Tech at Walter Craig whose name was on the repair tag and he was very excited for me to not even put any ammo in the gun and had UPS to come pick it up. All I had to do was write their address on the box, he didn't even send a label, they just come got it and gave me a receipt. It was returned about a week later all fixed. Steve E......... NRA Patron Life Member GOA Life Member North American Hunting Club Life Member USAF Veteran | |||
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I had one like this about 1968, could never figure out what I'd done wrong...fortunately nothing was harmed but a handfull of wet oak leaves on the ground in front of me. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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There have been a few of them in east Los Angeles, orginarily on New Year's Eve... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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I've seen it personally once when I didn't know what was going on, that's enough for me regardless of the rest of the keyboard discussion. There are two 700s in our family that are going to get new triggers and I'll pay for them myself rather than wait for lawyers and theoreticians to sort it out. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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AD? When the operator has his finger on the trigger, it's an ND. When the operator does not have his finger on the trigger and the gun discharges upon opening the bolt, it is an ND, usually negligence by Remington. | |||
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Same W/me on the AD I had W/my pre '82 M700 back in '98. I thought that, however unlikely, I MUST have had a button from my coat in the trigger gaurd or SOMETHING! Guns just can't/don't go off by themselves when the safety is switched off, right? Since my left hand was on the fore-end & my right hand was working the bolt, I KNEW I didn't have a finger anywhere near the trigger. After these things came to light a few years ago, I realized what had happened. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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One of the limitations of over ride triggers is that that they will “follow” when hit too hard. These things are basically the props in a trap door. Hit them hard enough and the trap door will fall. A M70 safety pulls the cocking piece sear back off the trigger sear. I suspect your safety was pulling the cocking piece so far back that when released, it had too much of a running start and knocked the trigger sear down and out of the way. I call this “following” and it also happens when the trigger is adjusted too light. Over ride triggers are sensitive creatures, yours was a manufacturing defect and it caused an Accidental Discharge. Good thing you tested it as Winchester customer service sure as heck did nothing the first time around. Stupid gits.......  | |||
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There was a death on new years eve right at midnight in Acapulco this year. It was a little kid too....... The angle of incidence was reported as being nearly vertical, wich would lead us to assume it was a Falling bullet and not just a bullet on a very long arching trayectory. Aditionally there are always at least one or 2 here every year for the same reason..... | |||
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if you have a 700 what can you do to make the safty better? | |||
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I suggest contacting Remington to get the new X-Mark Pro trigger installed. The alternative is to have your local 'smith install an aftermarket trigger with a good reputation for precision and overall quality. Shilen and Jewel make such triggers. Do a little research. Both makers offer different models. For a hunting rifle, use a hunting trigger. 'Downrange' rifles of the target/varmint variety are well served with multi-lever triggers with very light pulls, but they are 'fragile' and take some getting used to. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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thank you i have a 700 ps should it be good? i also have a sendero i will look in to the new triggers and thank you again | |||
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The X-Mark Pro has a smooth trigger piece face. They started showing up in 2006 but there was a lot of rifles in dealer stock so when it was bought makes little difference. Check the face of the trigger. The old Walker triggers have grooves in the face. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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i will thanks have had the guns over 10 years never had a problem always looking to make things better and safer | |||
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Maybe the new Mark X triggers are not worth a hoot either. First report that I have read of the new trigger causing accidental discharges. http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...=6999754&postcount=1
You skeptics, time to put on your tin foil hats. | |||
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One person writing something on a forum is a lot different than thousands of reports and problems verified by Remington. I see that one post as nothing but noise. Would need to hear both what Remington and a third party expert had to say about it before I gave it any credence at all ETA-the people who believe the RWT is fine say that anything mechanical can fail. That is a 100% true statement. They also say that soem guns can slip through the QC checks and leave the factory with an improperly adjusted trigger. that is also 100% true. They also say that folks who have an AD/ND often want to blame the rifle, even if it is them who screwed up. That is also 100% true. IF that guy did have the problems with the trigger AND it had not been mpodified after leaving the factory (they can tell if it has been adjusted) then my assumption would be that the rifle failed due to the issues listed above. The RWT has design problems and some of the units will fail at times. This is a far cry from failing in the 3 manners listed above. Jackrabbit - Just to clear something up, it is the trigger, not the safety, that is the issue with the RWT AD's. The safety is sometimes invovled in the AD's, but the actual problem is with the trigger's unique and flawed design. Not trying to pick nits, just trying to keep everyone focused on the true problem. | |||
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I've shot Remingtons since the late '40's. The only safty failure I ever had was on a Savage 110. It would fire every time if you had the action screws tightened just right.A non issue to me. Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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check out this video of Remington's response..... click here /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Just my 2 cents worth, I have owned Remingtons for several years, so has my Brother and Father. Many,many,many miles of walking hunting and shooting and have NEVER had an accidental discharge. This has been discussed at lenght so I can not really add anything new here, EXCEPT when I hear of the ADL discharging when unloading, I would like to add. 2 of my 3 Rems are ADL's and to unload you DO NOT need to chamber the round! Just push the bolt slightly forward and the live round will fall out. I have done this for many years and will continue to do so. Am I defending remington? Maybe a little. Is / was there a design issue? Maybe a little. Could the safety de designed better? Maybe a little. Should some people be more aware of what they are doing when handling a loaded firearm? Maybe a little..... As I said, just my 2 cents worth...... ..."its not a collection if you only have one".... | |||
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I had a gun dealer that is a customer who offered to sell me a new Remington 700 VTR with the X-Mark Pro trigger in 308 Win at his cost. He knew I was looking for a new rifle for my 11 year old son and we both thought this would be a great deer hunting and target rifle for him. We had it roughly 8 months without incident. One day I was at the range without my son and had it sitting on my rest pointed at the target. I had already put about 12 rounds downrange when I started another group. When I pushed the safety forward the rifle discharged. A friend that was with me asked if I meant to do that. I was embarrased and replied no and that I couldn't believe how stupid I was to have accidently fired it. I ended up shooting 40 rounds with that being the only incident. It continued to bother me. The more I thought about it I was sure my finger was not on the trigger. I remebered hearing about the Remington accidental discharge problems and decided I would not let my son use a potentially faulty firearm. I promptly traded the 700 and have had no desire to own another Remington product. I took a loss on the sale but the money lost is of no consequence when compared to my son's safety or anyone else's. I am not qualified to judge Remington's product as safe or unsafe. I just refuse to take the chance with a potential problem. | |||
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Did you inform the buyer of the potential problem? Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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That can't happen; the cocking cam in the bolt body prevents the striker assembly from moving fully forward to strike the primer unless the lugs are fully engaged. Ray, you would have to read some 8 pages to get to what's going on and even then all the misunderstandings firmly stated would leave you puzzled. Fact is, the Rem safety does not fail but Rem owners do by the way they work with and miss-maintain their rifles. The drawing above of an over-ride trigger applies to most such triggers but it's significantly different from the 700's trigger mechanism. In both types the safety cams the sear up and off the trigger nose. If the user pulls the trigger with the safety on it is then possible for the trigger/sear engagement not to reset; releasing the safety then releases the striker. Rem's original safety lever had an extension bar that engaged a slot in the handle's root to prevent accidental partial opening of the bolt (which would then prevent the rifle from firing at all) and that meant the bolt couldn't be opened to unload the piece until the safety was off. I had been cutting that arm off my safeties long before Remington gave up on us and did it for free. There are two distict reasons the trigger and sear may be prevented from properly resetting if the trigger is pulled with the safety on. One, a lot of users misadjust that adjustable trigger in order to make it as light and easy to pull as possible and many exceed the limits of where it can safely be adjusted. That's not Remington's fault ... is it? The Rem trigger is an excellant hunting trigger, it was never intended to be a target trigger and attempts to make it so is tempting disaster! Two, even with proper adjustment, the design requires a nearly free floating "connector" on the face of the trigger where it engages the sear. A LOT of gun owners use trigger oils that dry and leave a gummy, varnish like residue (WD-40 is one of the worst possible gun oils for that reason). Eventually the gum will clog the connector's free movement so it can't reset after being pulled with the safety on. Cleaning the trigger unit with a good solvent maybe ever year or two and using a non-gumming oil fixes it. That's "Remington's fault" only in that they have never specifically written their instuctions to explain the obvious. BUT - in both instances the sear will not be moved so as to release the striker unless the user has pulled the trigger with the safely on. Once that's done all that's holding the striker is the safety so turning the safety off on a loaded chamber is an automatic BOOM! So far as bullets fired into the air and hopefully going into space without doing harm, I'll note that a teenage Amish girl driving a buggy in Penn.was killed in last year when some dummass fired his muzzle loader in the air at the end of a day's hunting so he could clean it and put it away. There is NO reason that kid should have caught a bullet in her brain but there it was. It would have been no more difficult to put the bullet into the ground and no one would be exposed to hazzard; again, it's called muzzle (bullet) control. [If I had a chance to act in that case I'd sure charge the idiot with negligent homicide.] | |||
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In my years of hunting and shooting I have experienced AD with 2 different guns. Both had it in the same type of situation. The trigger was pulled when safety was on and then when safety was taken off at a later stage, the shot went off. The first gun was a BRNO Fox in 222 and where a "skilled" gunsmith had adjusted the trigger. The gun was sent back to be fixed and it still today works perfect. The other gun was a Remington 700 a friend of me owned. His Remington was totally new and it happened first time at the shooting range. When he was going to shoot a shot after he just had reloaded the magazine, he forgot to take off the safety when he was ready to shoot and pulled the trigger with the safety on. At the moment he took the safety off, the gun fired. After that we tested the gun while it was empty and the firing pin would always go forward when we took the safety off if we had pulled the trigger first with the safety on. He delivered the gun back to the gunshop he bought it and he got another 700 instead and he never had any problems with that at all even if we really tried our best to provoke a AD, to be totally sure it was safe. | |||
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We need two exceptions to that general rule, though. The early Howa/Weatherby Vanguards had a round bolt sleeve. When it was displaced to the fired position, it allows the bolt to be fully inserted in the receiver. The cocking piece hangs on the safety lever and then slips off, acting just like a cock on closing action. If it slips with the bolt close enough to the primer the bolt comes back out the rear. 105 feet, after tearing off a thumb and breaking an arm in one victim. The other is the cheap Turkish made bolt actions with the bolt handle AND cocking notch in one unit that is 'poorly' brazed to the bolt. On hard bolt closing of the bolt, the braze breaks and the bolt stays unlocked while the handle turns down. It's rare but it it sure messes up faces. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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The design of the X-Mark pro is 'safe' but it still has to be made of the right material, heat-treated correctly and have the right geometry. Any or all of those can cause failures. I will no longer recommend them on the basis of failure reports received so-far. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Yeah I told the dealer the gun had been back to Remington twice because it was breaking extractor clips and scarring brass. Neither of these issues were resolved satisfactorily. After the accidental discharge I told him I wanted to trade it and he could send it back to them. I did put a Bell and Carlson Medalist stock on it to replace the tupperware unit but don't think this affected the trigger because it dropped right in with ample clearance. I am just soured by my experience with that gun and would not trust it in my son's hands. I may have had 1 in 100k that had poor quality control but 1 is all it took to undermine my confidence in Remington. I would feel this way with any manufacturer under similar circumstances. | |||
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Yeah the original law suit over these triggers involved a lawyer being shot. Coincidence??? This is baloney. Keep these triggers clean and keep your finger off of them and they do not malfunction. | |||
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