Jim Borden, owner of Borden Rifles thinks the Lapua round is marginal in terms of safety in many actions, for several reasons.
He also thinks it offers no real world advantage over the 338 RUM.

1. The bolt nose edges on a .700" bolt face (remington 700) will be very thin and fragile with the 338L rim diameter of .595".

2. Thread tenon diameter. Receivers are thread 1 1/16th X 18 and barrels are also. The Root diameter is about .990". With a chamber diameter of .595 this leaves a
wall thickness of .1975". Using a simple model of the tenon alone and chamber pressures of 65,000 psi results in a hoop tensile stress in the barrel tenon of 94,000psi.
The yield strength of 416R SS at 26 Rc is about 107,000psi. SF (safety factor) of the application is 1.1, which is well below the recommended minimum of 1.5

3. Comparative Velocity. Jim includes a chart on his website that shows the 338 RUM Vs the Lapua velocities at SAAMI specs.

BULLET 338 RUM 338 Lapua

Barnes 210 92.5gr 3189 100.5gr 3170
Barnes 225 97.5gr 3066 97gr 3039
Barnes 250 95gr 2915 102/5gr 2842
Sierra 300 89gr 2650 93gr 2700

Obviously, this is one example, but I find it interesting to note that he is this concerned over safety and performance comparing the two.

He does not build the bigger Lapua on the 1.7" actions, even his own.

I would opine that a 338 Edge (FL RUM case) would out run the Lapua, and have a much higher comparative safety margin.


Rich

Rich,
Quite frankly I don't care what others shoot and feel that if the cartridge gets people interested in shoot, then all the better. I have run up and down the 338 field and frankly velocity is hard to come by in the big 338s. Ideally for me it may be worse than for others because I generally don't want a rifle with over a 24" barrel and weighing much more than 8 lbs scoped and loaded. For general hunting the 338 can't be beat proportion wise. I have a 24" 340 wby that has a bit more velocity but after that it just gets worse and worse in terms of shoveling in coal and recoil . Also, you can do a 24" 338. Rum but after that and even at that there really isn't any usable horsepower that I need. I think if a someone wanted to play boy-sniper, the edge with a 28" would be cook'n. For the practical hunter the 338 wm I think is hard to beat.

I like my 375 Imp for a hunting cartridge.

375 Weatherby?

pretty much...

I just think the 338 Lapua is way overpriced. Brass and ammo prices are comparable to 50 BMG.

I know my recoil and weight carrying tolerance. I figure if I can't kill it with the CZ 9.3x62 "Stutzen" Rich sold me, I'll hunt something else.

ive got 2 .338 win mags, 1 browing auto , the other a m70 Winchester. a .340 weatherby, also a Winchester m70 and a .338 lapua on a savage long range hunter.. all serve different purposes... if I ever have the need for the 1000 yd shot, the lapua is there... I hunt with browning because its easy to carry and offers a quick second (or third)shot...a friend gave me the .340 weatherby barrel and stock so I bought a Winchester m70 and cannibalized it to have Tip burns assemble it... shoots great too...

Agreed there is no advantage of the 338 Lapua over the the 338 RUM, except availability of brass. Lapua is easier to find compared to RUM brass.

Has Remington stop offering RUM brass?

QL lists the case capacity for the 338 Lapua at 108 grs of water, 338 RUM at 110 grs, and the 338 Edge at 113 grs...negligible differences.

I wouldn't waste my time and would rather have an RUM over a Lapua or Edge. The Edge to me has more disadvantages than the regular RUM. The 340 is about perfect in 24" M70 or 700.

Hey Scott,

I was just thinking about the Stutzen I sold you. Took me about a week to regret that.

I'm having another one built. Mannlicher stocked carbine this time on a 1908 Brazilian.

It is a pretty neat cartridge.

smallfry,

if you want one, and can afford to have it built, it is never a waste of time. Especially if you are like me and retired. I have all the time God has left me, and a nice toy check.

regards,

Rich

Rich,
Don't get me wrong, I am just speaking for myself . Like I said a few posts ago, I am all for any cartridge that gets someone interested in shooting. Velocity is hard won as case capacity goes up and it's particularly true when recoil becomes a factor.

bunch of blah blah blah

the LARGEST tenon, for a sporting gun, is 1.2 -- ask me how I know...

one guys opinion doesn't overwhelm the actual manf of a firearm that faces product liability insurance..

lots of bluff and bluster

well I guess another reason to not buy a crappy Remington rifle.



like I was gonna in the first place.

The 338 Lapa was not built to fit into a m700.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
The 338 Lapa was not built to fit into a m700.

and yet, it has been built on m700 from the factory

http://www.remington.com/rifle...del-700-xcr-tactical

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hey Scott,

I was just thinking about the Stutzen I sold you. Took me about a week to regret that.

I'm having another one built. Mannlicher stocked carbine this time on a 1908 Brazilian.

It is a pretty neat cartridge.

smallfry,

if you want one, and can afford to have it built, it is never a waste of time. Especially if you are like me and retired. I have all the time God has left me, and a nice toy check.

regards,

Rich

Rich,

It's a handy little rifle. 40.5" overall length and weighs only 8 lbs with a Leupold VX3 1.5x5 on it. I've used it a few times hunting but haven't shot anything yet. Next year I want to get down to South Texas for a Nilgai hunt and the 9.3 "stutzen" is top of the list for that purpose.

As the 338 Lapua is a military cartridge what are the bolt and other dimensions being used .What pressures are the military rounds ?

quote:

QL lists the case capacity for the 338 Lapua at 108 grs of water, 338 RUM at 110 grs, and the 338 Edge [corr--TZ] at 113 grs...negligible differences.

Not.

QuickLoad needs some correction. The Lapua has about 4-7 grains more volume than either the Edge or RUM. The RUM has the advantage over the Edge of having factory brass. The Lapua is better than both by having more widely produced brass. As a military round it has the advantage of programmed longevity and the disadvantage of potentially being blocked in some country because it is 'military'. I suppose that I would build on a CZ or Weatherby if I wanted to build a Lapua.

Actually, I'm still waiting for Tikka or some other to franchise a 338 RUGER (based on 375 Ruger with an 11 grain increase over 338WM ~ like a 340Weatherby) and make it widely available. RIP, are you listening? Until then, I can live with the 338 WinMag or 375 Ruger. Of course, I would be pretty happy if someone gifted me with a 338 Lapua. I'd leave it in North America. It isn't really desirable for Africa, where larger caliber is more functional than extreme velocity. Between a 338 Lapua and a 416 Ruger, I'd probably pick the 416 Ruger.

416,

that MAY be correct, but the concerns a very highly respected gunsmith evinces would be enough of a red flag for me to do the Edge.

Read the Jim Borden post that started this thread.

For the cost of 100 pieces of Lapua brass I can have 200 case gard 100's full of Edge.

Something most members here would be well advised to do when buying anything out of the mainstream cartridges is to make sure you have purchased a minimum of 200 cases. A minimum.

I found 375 RUM new cases last week for $1.16 each, and 7mm RUM for three cents less. I bought 220 of each. Twenty to do load work with, and two casegards of my found load.

They are atop the list for 2017, a 338 Edge, and a 6.5mm RUM.

quote:

338 Lapua, more style than substance...

From my point of view, it is stupid statement.

338 Lapua is here for more than 25 years and it is cartridge developed for military long-range sniper rifles. It is used in Accuracy International, IWI DAN and other top world class sniper rifles.

What I know, 338 RUM is cartridge developed for civilian market and Remington rifles.

Jiri

I have both an Edge and a Lapua and am having a custom Lapua built right now. In real life, there is no difference between the two.

For hunting, I like the .338 WM. I can shoot a light .338 WM without a break; can't say the same about the other two.

Dan Lilja wrote of the poor choice of a M700 in a Lapua chambering many years ago.

I have built three, do not have one in the battery now. My 338 is a 338 Win Mag, all that I will ever need.

Once you reach old man's status the lesser calibers have a lot of appeal: 70 year old bones do not tolerate recoil. In fact my next Elk Rifle build will likely be an 8x57, following Austin Hunters success with his build. I have over 300 cases and 500 bullets, so why not?

I guess if a guy is young and full of energy and takes long shots at Elk then a big 338 will fill the ticket. I am a dark timber hunter and prowl the forests where a 75 yard shot is a long one. My 9.3x62 may turn out to be my top choice!

For the timid: 308 on the right:

The appeal for me on the 338 Lapua is that it is a common factory cartridge.

At one time in my life I would have picked something more esoteric like the 338 Imperial Magnum. I am old enough to know that logistics are often much more important than anything else.

My Sako .338 Lapua is simply an old workhorse that has taken many Elk-Deer for me and my son and a grandson. The grandson got his first Elk with it when he was 14. My son got a 360 Bull with it in Kentucky. For me and mine the .338 Lapua is all substance. Good Shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I have both an Edge and a Lapua and am having a custom Lapua built right now. In real life, there is no difference between the two.

For hunting, I like the .338 WM. I can shoot a light .338 WM without a break; can't say the same about the other two.

yeah a 340 is upper practical for me. The 338 WM is a great cartridge.

quote:

The appeal for me on the 338 Lapua is that it is a common factory cartridge.

Wyoming makes a good point.

quote:

My Sako .338 Lapua is simply an old workhorse that has taken many Elk-Deer for me and my son and a grandson. The grandson got his first Elk with it when he was 14. My son got a 360 Bull with it in Kentucky. For me and mine the .338 Lapua is all substance. Good Shooting.

So from Phurley we can see and agree that the 338Lapua is a do-all for North America, any animal, any distance. (Find the right bullets for the jobs, of course!)

quote:

yeah a 340 is upper practical for me. The 338 WM is a great cartridge.

And Smallfry reminds us that we always have the 338 WinMag as a great fall-back cartridge, come what may.

All of those .338's are thoroughbreds. They were built for a purpose and satisfy a niche. None are superior. They just need the right cart, nothing wrong with the horse.
The world does not revolve around the factory Remington 700 action. A properly engineered Remington 700 action that is built appropriately, will handle it's parameters with aplomb, .338 or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

The appeal for me on the 338 Lapua is that it is a common factory cartridge.

Wyoming makes a good point.

quote:

My Sako .338 Lapua is simply an old workhorse that has taken many Elk-Deer for me and my son and a grandson. The grandson got his first Elk with it when he was 14. My son got a 360 Bull with it in Kentucky. For me and mine the .338 Lapua is all substance. Good Shooting.

So from Phurley we can see and agree that the 338Lapua is a do-all for North America, any animal, any distance. (Find the right bullets for the jobs, of course!)

quote:

yeah a 340 is upper practical for me. The 338 WM is a great cartridge.

And Smallfry reminds us that we always have the 338 WinMag as a great fall-back cartridge, come what may.

I like the 338WM, haven't always had one and its been here and there in my life but Ive always like it. Really I don't find much useable horsepower beyond the 338wm in 338 calibers. I like tote-able rifles so there is always a balance between weight and horsepower. Conversely I don't really care for the 338-06. I'd rather have a 338WM or 30-06 over a 338-06. Certain principles apply that make up my preferences. All fine cartridges though.

Not sure what happened to the Sako TRG market but I can't find one for $2500 anymore used. Everyone has long range fever now.

We all know that there's more to it than just the cartridge chambering. I've loved .338 calibers in 3 different incarnations for almost 5 decades and the barrel, stock and scope have as much, or more, to do with the designed application of a rifle than the chamber.

I have a beautiful 338 WM with a custom English walnut stock for my bear and "close" elk gun but I'm building another 338 RUM into a LR affair...and it will be so because of the barrel, stock and scope.

Too often we only talk calibers and cartridges and fail to discuss rifle composition as it applies to our purpose.

Last but not least is the skill of the rifleman... but that's an whole other topic.

Zeke

I am going to start another thread in the long range forum called "Long Range 101".

My understanding of long range really has changed. I used to think that 600 yards was a long shot. Even in quite a bit of wind, I can use science to get a decent group at 600 yards.

Long range shooting is 90% applied science and 10% applied skill with the right equipment.

Failure to apply the science correctly will result in failure.

as stated earlier-
the 338LM design parameters were not for the 700-
people/companies choosing to "adapt" it to that action is "their problem"- as I will not be a purchaser-

having owned a few 338LM's of various pedigree, then a Lawton 408CT and now 375CT on a Stiller-
the 375CT is my current long range favorite.

no flies , really on the 338 for most LR shooters, and general purposes -
however -
the 375CT , is IMHO, just a bit better at "doing the job" on man or beast past 1500 meters- ( though ammo @ Bass pro is an "issue")

If we are talking vehicles -- that is a completely different discussion

I have a 338 Lapua AI reamer with a long throat that works well on a single shot. I've used the 338 Tac Stiller ss action with complete satisfaction. Very close to 3000fps with the 300's. I've had an Edge also and it was a good performer but I liked 3000+ fps with the heavies and built a 338 chey tac which does 3200. Not a light rifle, but does perform well beyond 1000 with enough residual velocity to expand at longer ranges.

The oversize .338s are mostly bark and not much more bite IMO..Ive had such good luck with the .338 Win. that I don't see how I could improve on it unless perhaps on the new rage of popping elk at 2000 yards, something Ive never had any desire to do..Bigger and bigger guns, including African big bores has never impressed me on those big animals as they all do about the thing as far as I can tell. I never could tell that my 300 Wby did anything the 300 H&H wouldn't or the 30-06 for that matter!
Same for my 450-400, my 404, when compared to my .470 N.E. or my 505 that kicked the snot out of me, oh well carry on, its a century old conversation!

My hunting rifle for out west is a lighter weight 300 Win mag. The 'big' guns are kind of camp 'opportunity' tools.

I've been shooting Rockchucks here in Idaho since spring of 1979. The summer/fall I had a pair of Geovids on loan from Leica I made several (okay, 7 out of 31) first shot kills over 1000 yards. Yes, I missed a lot, but got better.

The Borden post was just for information purposes.
The Edge is so close, and safe on 700/700 foot clones it is not worth the risk.

take care,

Rich

I have a Noreen .338 Lapua semi auto that's been a real project. From failures to feed and extract ( while hammering its brass) I finally have it mostly feeding and extracting. Accuracy seems best with just 83grs of IMR 7828 and a 250 Lapua scenar. What a PIA! Expensive gun too! Mostly overgassed with factory ammo despite a adjustable gas block!

Geez RGB, you remind me of an old blacksmith that lived near my Grandfather. I think every summer I visited his shop he had bought a new, bigger hammer.

Really accurate big bore gas guns are a specialty of mine. This Noreen has great potential but man is it tough to get working properly! Nevertheless in my book only guns that don't work right keep my interest. However, this caliber in this design is the worst ice ever dealt with by far.

Ive considered the larger .338s for years, but the ballistics on 99% of them are showing only a 100 FPS gain over the standard 338 WM..until you get to the real big boys that are too heavy for me to pack and Im not a 1000 yard elk guy in the first place..

I find all this hoopla very interesting however, and why not, Im a gun gooney, its just not my cup of tea for my style of hunting or shooting for that matter.