jsl3170, well said. It is refreshing to read a well thought out and equally well stated opinion when this sort of thread so predictably deteriorates into a shit slinging match.

In the case of the New Mexico outfitter whose bow hunters wound and lose more elk than anyone else, are those hunters charged a trophy fee for the animals they wound and lose?
Curious minds would like to know.

Amen coonhunter. thanks cobrad. wondering the same thing wasbeeman. I think I have read that if you lay down your money on an African safari and wound the game you've bought it.

but ethically speaking...

no clue. I suppose it is all state regulated. can someone tell us?

Not even getting into the ethics of it. Those elk are dollars and cents to the outfitters and to the state. If a hunter (of any kind) wounds one and it escapes and he says "oh well, let's go get another one", that's xxx dollars laying in the woods being eaten by coyotes.
I think it was Said that said in Africa, if you shoot an animal, say wound it and it escapes, your hunt is over.

I have shot and found three deer I hit with arrows. I almost did not find two of those three. One died in the middle of a river but I got it out. I hit two other deer with arrows which I did not find. One was hit in an OK place from above. It was almost below me and my stand was only about ten feet above ground. My arrow did not make it through the deer (a nice buck) and it ran off without leaving a blood trail. I could not find the deer that evening nor the next day. I hit another small buck in what I thought was a good location. It left a good blood trail but I could not find it as it got dark on me. After that I only hunted mornings as I figured I had more time to follow up blood trails but fairly quickly lost my interest in archery hunting. I also helped try to trail down a couple other deer shot by other hunters which were not found. I don't know if the results of archery hunting by me and friends were typical, but I suspect so. I know that in the past around here some farmers would not allow bowhunting as they found to many wounded (dead) deer lying around.

quote:

Originally posted by IOWADON:
I have shot and found three deer I hit with arrows. I almost did not find two of those three. One died in the middle of a river but I got it out. I hit two other deer with arrows which I did not find. One was hit in an OK place from above. It was almost below me and my stand was only about ten feet above ground. My arrow did not make it through the deer (a nice buck) and it ran off without leaving a blood trail. I could not find the deer that evening nor the next day. I hit another small buck in what I thought was a good location. It left a good blood trail but I could not find it as it got dark on me. After that I only hunted mornings as I figured I had more time to follow up blood trails but fairly quickly lost my interest in archery hunting. I also helped try to trail down a couple other deer shot by other hunters which were not found. I don't know if the results of archery hunting by me and friends were typical, but I suspect so. I know that in the past around here some farmers would not allow bowhunting as they found to many wounded (dead) deer lying around.

I have a farm in N.E. Iowa and we hunt it during the shotgun season. Every year we shoot two or three deer that have been wounded with a bow. Usually we don't take the meat because the deer is in such bad shape that no one wants to eat the meat (gangrene).

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Our family has used 300 Win Mag's at long distance to take elk at those distances with the aid of reloaded ammo. We've had luck with 180g loaded on the upper end of the velocity spectrum and the 300 Win Mag seems to fit the bill for the accuracy requirement as evidenced by the 1000 yard shooters.
Once you get beyond a true 400 yards the question is not so much which cartridge but can I hit stuff at that distance. A solid rest and quality glass is a must but the wind can still give you the run around. I know that practice will solve many of these concerns but who really want to shoot 150 rounds of hot 300 Win Mag on a spring afternoon??rounds.

On the nose! Even a 30-06 if you can do your part. roger

+2 Exactly, an 06 will do the job fine at 400-500 yards. You hit the nail on the head, the bigger issue is can you judge the correct distance, and can you "hit" the target over 400 yards.

I personally would not shoot at anything past about 300 yards without a rangefinder. I can't judge range accurately enough. At longer ranges knowing the range is very important.

Knowing the range is the easy part, we now have lazer range finders

that is right range is easy and drop is consistent. It is that wind that is a little tougher.

quote:

Originally posted by coonhunter:
that is right range is easy and drop is consistent. It is that wind that is a little tougher.

Exactly!
How does one make up for an unknown wind velocity down the canyon that is undectable from where you are at?
At anytime out at 500 yards or so your taking a chance. The question really, is how much it matters to you if you at best; completely miss the animal; or at worst, end up with a gut shot animal that crawls under a blowdown at the bottom of a canyon, and dies a slow death.
But I guess, what the hell; at best you didn't have to hike too far from the truck and risk having to actually get out and make a stalk to within reasonable shooting distance, and at worst, at least the coyotes don't go hungry!
I've made plenty of hit's on inatimate objects out there past 500 yards. But I've missed more then hit at that range, and am smart enough, and hopefully 'Sportsman' enough to know better then to take a risk on those shot's on a game animal.

Wind must be reaqd with top quality optics. One must study the movement of folage to estimate the wind accurately. Not as difficult as some seem to indicate. Of course practice and experience aid in this endeavor

If one is not sure of the conditions, then don't take the shot. Seems easy to me

I bought a video on long range shooting a couple days ago and got it watched yesterday. It had a little good information but was mostly an advertisement for a certain maker's rifles. I think wind is the most difficult factor in long range shooting and that was not even mentioned in the video.

I am not as experienced at long range shooting as some. My wind reading ability is definitely improving with practice. I agree that no matter the distance you should not take a shot unless you are sure that you can make it.

A good way to get reasonably good at estimating wind speed is to use the speedometer of a vehicle. That is, if there is a south wind and you guess it to be 15 mph, drive north and put your arm out the window. Adjust the speed of your vehicle until you feel no wind on your hand from either the front or back. Compare that to the spped you guessed. Do this a few times each year and your wind estimation skills will improve. Also be familiar with geometry so winds at an angle can be easily simplified. Finally, don't wait until a shot to think about the wind. Be continually estimating the wind speed and direction.

The best way I have found to accurately measure wind speed is with an anemometer. I use one made by Dwyer. It is a mechanical unit that cost around $20, and has proved to be accurate enough that I have not bothered spending the $ on an electrical unit. I think they can be had from Sinclair International. From an initial reading I can observe the movement of grass or brush around me and compare that to what I see through my scope near my target. Several years of varmint shooting using this device has improved my ability greatly to shoot in the wind. There are limits though, and one will quickly learn when it is best just not to take the shot. I would , again, encourage you guys who insist it just can't be done ethically to get a few tools and learn how to use them. Then give us your opinion.

First off, I do have experience and can use the tools. But as you all are not able to get, is that the wind speed where you take the reading has absolutely no baring on the wind speed between you and the game taken. It can vary as much as 20 MPH! And there are a lot of places where there is no vegetation to move with the wind.
Learn to HUNT and long shots are not needed.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
First off, I do have experience and can use the tools. But as you all are not able to get, is that the wind speed where you take the reading has absolutely no baring on the wind speed between you and the game taken. It can vary as much as 20 MPH! And there are a lot of places where there is no vegetation to move with the wind.
Learn to HUNT and long shots are not needed.

Game lives where there is no vegatation? Remind me not to hunt there.

quote:

Originally posted by coonhunter:
I am not as experienced at long range shooting as some. My wind reading ability is definitely improving with practice. I agree that no matter the distance you should not take a shot unless you are sure that you can make it.

A Kestell pocket weather station (on left in the photo) will read the wind speed and give high and average speed. Watch the movement of the vegetation around you when taking a wind reading and practice any where.

Of coures when not sure of condition or distance, don't shoot. No need to spook the animal there is always another day

For no more than 500yd my .257 STW is awsome with 100 grain TTSX @ 4000 fps. No hold over to 400yd then just at the top of shoulder to 500 yd,

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475: No need to spook the animal there is always another day

Or blow it's leg off, or gut shoot it and watch it hobble off to die, so you can go to the local gun shop and brag about the shot that you almost made using your combination wind station,zippity dooda,beanie-copter,i-pod.

This isn't hunting. It's using game animals as targets.

Here's a quote from a Deer Hunting website:

" Ethics and Awareness
We, as deer hunters, are also battling large groups of well funded anti-hunters. These anti-hunting organizations are always on the lookout for examples of unethical deer hunting practices that will turn public opinion against hunting. As hunters, we must practice good hunting ethics; we cannot give them the headlines they are looking for. Our ethical and moral conduct must set the example. We must treat with respect, the sport of deer hunting. It is a privilege that can be taken away from us if we lose sight of this principle."

When this is condoned and bragged about. Every wannabee nit wit who thinks they can shoot, hears or reads it, will be out there trying to kill something at at 1000 yards. With the result being lots of wounded animals and the loss of hunting privilages.

I will pit my long range shooting skills against anyone. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can make consistant one shot kills on any animal at 300-500 plus yards, even using the latest and greatest Techno crap on the market.

Keep up the good work...

Heh D B. . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475: No need to spook the animal there is always another day

Or blow it's leg off, or gut shoot it and watch it hobble off to die, so you can go to the local gun shop and brag about the shot that you almost made using your combination wind station,zippity dooda,beanie-copter,i-pod.

This isn't hunting. It's using game animals as targets.

Here's a quote from a Deer Hunting website:

" Ethics and Awareness
We, as deer hunters, are also battling large groups of well funded anti-hunters. These anti-hunting organizations are always on the lookout for examples of unethical deer hunting practices that will turn public opinion against hunting. As hunters, we must practice good hunting ethics; we cannot give them the headlines they are looking for. Our ethical and moral conduct must set the example. We must treat with respect, the sport of deer hunting. It is a privilege that can be taken away from us if we lose sight of this principle."

When this is condoned and bragged about. Every wannabee nit wit who thinks they can shoot, hears or reads it, will be out there trying to kill something at at 1000 yards. With the result being lots of wounded animals and the loss of hunting privilages.

I will pit my long range shooting skills against anyone. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can make consistant one shot kills on any animal at 300-500 plus yards, even using the latest and greatest Techno crap on the market.

Keep up the good work...

DB -- open your mind a bit. I have seen plenty of "seasoned" deer hunters blow legs off of animals at ranges under 100 yards. We can't impose the same limitations on everyone as everyone's skill set varies. I hunt almost exclusively with a handgun nowadays and lots of people think it's a stunt because of the paper ballistics of the cartridges I shoot (I often hear: not enough muzzle energy and other such B.S.). Not a stunt at all, but it does require that I practice more than the average scoped rifle hunter. To each his own. Can you imagine how boring it would be if we all hunted the same way? JMHO.

I've taken two deer past 600 yards, one with my 6mm Ackley, and one with my 338 Lapua Improved. I wouldn't take a shot if there was any doubt whether I would kill the animal. I don't think limiting "everyone" to a certain number of yards because the majority don't know their rifle well enough to shoot past 300 yards is right.

A good scope, rifle, rangefinder, and bipod go a long ways, and let's not forget common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
I've taken two deer past 600 yards, one with my 6mm Ackley, and one with my 338 Lapua Improved. I wouldn't take a shot if there was any doubt whether I would kill the animal. I don't think limiting "everyone" to a certain number of yards because the majority don't know their rifle well enough to shoot past 300 yards is right.

A good scope, rifle, rangefinder, and tripod go a long ways, and let's not forget common sense.

Well said, Tyler!

Other than I said tripod on accident. :S

A good bipod helps more I think!

quote:

I have seen plenty of "seasoned" deer hunters blow legs off of animals at ranges under 100 yards.

Whitworth,

That's my point. At 500 to 800 yards, the chances are 5 to 8 times more likely that the animal will be wounded or maimed.

quote:

A good scope, rifle, rangefinder, and tripod go a long ways, and let's not forget common sense.

Tyler,

I couldn't agree more. If you've ever worked in a gun shop? (I've worked in 5 over the past 30+ years) "Common sense" isn't a common commodity amongst the general public.

But my point is that it happens frequently at all ranges, so what's the point of the limitation? These long-range guys invest way more time, money, and practice in their "art" than the guy who dusts off his scoped '06 the day before opening day.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:
I will pit my long range shooting skills against anyone. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can make consistant one shot kills on any animal at 300-500 plus yards, even using the latest and greatest Techno crap on the market.

Keep up the good work...

I am in north LA. come on down and I will take your money.


Before my last ELk hunt I set up my target at 600 yard and shot one shot, then drove off 2 days latter I came back and shot 1 shot 4 days latter I fired 1 more round. All 3 cold barrel shot were with in 2 inches

First round hits are what counts in the hunting fields. It is much easier to make them with a rifle and scope that are set up for the task, rather than a general purpose hunting rifle

D B I am very dissapointed in the narrow minded attitude that you are showing on this thread

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475:
I am in north LA. come on down and I will take your money.
/QUOTE]

North LA, as in Los Angeles or Louisiana

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475:
I am in north LA. come on down and I will take your money.
/QUOTE]

North LA, as in Los Angeles or Louisiana

Just north of you, south of Monroe and north of Alexandra

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

I have seen plenty of "seasoned" deer hunters blow legs off of animals at ranges under 100 yards.

Whitworth,

That's my point. At 500 to 800 yards, the chances are 5 to 8 times more likely that the animal will be wounded or maimed.

quote:

A good scope, rifle, rangefinder, and tripod go a long ways, and let's not forget common sense.

Tyler,

I couldn't agree more. If you've ever worked in a gun shop? (I've worked in 5 over the past 30+ years) "Common sense" isn't a common commodity amongst the general public.

The general public are not long range hunters, you continue to confuse the two

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475:
I am in north LA. come on down and I will take your money.
/QUOTE]

North LA, as in Los Angeles or Louisiana

Definitely not Los Angeles!

When he told DB Cooper to come on down, I figured DB had settled in Washington after the jump, so come on down meant Los Angeles. But JWP just does not strike me as a Hollywood type.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
When he told DB Cooper to come on down, I figured DB had settled in Washington after the jump, so come on down meant Los Angeles. But JWP just does not strike me as a Hollywood type.

That's a good assessment of jwp!

I shoot at long ranges every week and have been doing so for the last three decades. Here is what I know: when the range is such that a wind speed of 1 mph will drift your bullet 5 inches, you absolutely have no business shooting at that range. That means shoot big bullets (high BC) at high velocity. But at some point, even a .338 bullet at 3000 fps drifts 5 inches in a 1 mph wind.

If you can’t place 9 of 10 bullets within 5 inches of your aiming spot, you have no business shooting. And that doesn’t mean 10 shots in one session - that is ten shots over ten days in different conditions.

I have also learned a crosswind is much preferred to a wind swirling from behind.

Laser rangefinders are great, but be sure you are measuring the animal you are aiming at and not the rock behind it. The original Geovid had a very tight beam divergence; other ones would often fail to reflect off the animal, instead returning the range of the treeline or hill behind the animal.

I have also learned to shoot in lots of different areas; having only one place to shoot long range will lull into a sense of false security; you will learn the subtleties of the range or area you are using.

Having an anemometer is a definite advantage, but in the West hills and mountains can create some weird swirls that you simply must practice in. And the wind can be completely different at your target. Ironically, I find gently swirling winds to be much more difficult than a wind blowing harder from a 90 degree angle.

In Arizona there is very little vegetation that moves in wind speeds less than 4 mph, and the air is so dry that you often cannot see a mirage.

Years of shooting in northern MN taught me the impact that temperature has not only on bullet trajectory but also on muzzle velocity. There are things you can do for the MV problem, but I guarantee your bullets drop more in cold weather, and the effect is extremely pronounced at extreme ranges.

I have also learned a 700 yard shot is twice as difficult as a 500 yard shot. Anything over 850 yards is so incredibly difficult due to wind that IMO it isn't ethical. And I am saying that as I guy who has put his last 10 shots into a paper plate at ranges between 700 and 745 yards. Those aren't ten shots in one session, those are ten weeks of shooting one bullet without the benefit of a sighter. Oh, that was sitting with a bipod, too.

A lot of guys talk about gong shooting. Most gongs are far larger than the vital areas of animals we hunt.

I don’t set up to shoot at long range; frankly, I have yet to see a long range shooter/hunter with a very impressive trophy room. A guy who can put ten shots into a paper plate at 500 yards using nothing but the sitting position and a sling will have a more impressive trophy room that a guy who carts around a heavy rifle deliberately set up for long range. But I like to be prepared. I also keep careful records. I have shot two caribou, one sheep, one antelope, and one elk, all at ranges from 360 yards to 638. I killed them all, although the elk took a bit of tracking. To put that into perspective, I have shot 13 caribou, five sheep, five antelope, and 7 bull elk. Less than 1 percent of the animals I have shot have come at ranges past 350. On the other hand, I can honestly say that if I aimed at it, it died. But past 450 yards, there is a noticeable lack of bullet energy.

I have hunted extensively in Africa. I can guarantee your attitude is different if you fork over a trophy fee for a wounded animal. I shot a lion at 200 yards using a flimsy rest, adn believe me, the pressure was tremendous. The farthest I have shot anything in Africa is a wildebeest at 305 yards off the sticks from the standing position, and a buffalo I shot prone at 308. I felt totally comfortable on both shots. I have never attempted a running shot in Africa. Wonder why?

More and more guides in the US will end your hunt if you attempt a long range shot and wound the animal. Good policy.

Good gear is important for long range shooting, but having a variety of places to shoot at long range is the most important thing of all. If you haven’t demonstrated the ability to put 9 of those 10 shots into a paper plate at the range you shooting, do us and the animal a favor and pass on the shot.

A guy I once knew summed it up best: “Long range hunters take more pride in the distance of the shot than the animal they are shooting.”

I think he nailed it on the head. And again, that comes from a guy who lives to shoot at long ranges...even more than hunting lions in Africa.

quote:

A lot of guys talk about gong shooting. Most gongs are far larger than the vital areas of animals we hunt.

MY long range gong is a 12" diameter circle

quote:

I have hunted extensively in Africa. I can guarantee your attitude is different if you fork over a trophy fee for a wounded animal. I shot a lion at 200 yards using a flimsy rest, adn believe me, the pressure was tremendous. The farthest I have shot anything in Africa is a wildebeest at 305 yards off the sticks from the standing position, and a buffalo I shot prone at 308. I felt totally comfortable on both shots. I have never attempted a running shot in Africa. Wonder why?

I passed a shot a a beautiful 6X6 bull Elk inside 100 yards because I was so winded that I could not keep the Elk in the scope with all of the heavy breathing.

Conditions make shot possible or not IMHO and experience

Some people just can't change their tune no matter what evidence is presented.

JWP:

Your 730 yard target demonstrates one thing I see over and over: you can't have enough accuracy. That group obviously drifted to the left due to the wind, but the group is so tight that all bullets hit that gong. If your group would have been double in size, you would have missed at least one of those shots. Hard to see how many shots you fired.

But tell me, do you think you can hit that 1000 yard gong with the first shot 90 percent of the time? Not in calm conditions, but when the wind is blowing?