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| one of us |
I guess I don't understand your post above. Why would you have to use 225gr or 200gr bullets to reach out to 600+ yards? A 250 gr bullet is a far better choice for long range shooting in that round. | |||
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One of Us |
Interesting consept I will advise you that you will find this rifle in my possession long after many have passed through your hands. Why would you not want to go up against me with a rifle of like weight and power? Ah perhaps it is the recoil thing again. I do not need to go up against anyone.... nuthing to prove anymore 90% of the time I can get closer the 10% I can't oh well can't shoot em all eh?. I do like the power aspect and the large increase in KE over the ranges I shoot. So you have proven here in front of the world Corey that your peinis is much more grand than mine not to worry a few years of therapy and I  should be right as rain. | |||
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I wouldn't put too much stock in energy figures  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Perhaps I worded incorrectly. I do like a heavy well constructed bullet for larger animals. I got the 338 ultra too late for the 09 season so I can't compare it with kills I have made with larger and smaller calibers. It is a handfull of the bench with no brake. On shooting sticks it is not bad at all. I have not pushed it past 300 yards as of yet, still working on load Del. I really do like this rifle and the ultra chambering, not cheap to shoot but a great break from the ordanary | |||
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When ever the subject of long range shooting comes to play, I always get a kick out of the responces, and know there will be contraversy. We had a young kid come into the gun shop a few weeks back and ask what scope he should put on his AR15 to help him kill deer at 2,500 yards! At first I thought he was joking, but found he was not. I had a responce for him, but he did not seem to like it much. . . . . . . Not trying to stir the pot, as I have made several 500+ kills myself, however there must be some common sense applied. Cheers | |||
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Have been reading this discussion with some amusement. Being from the east, the distances you folks talk about is just not in the cards. The discussion is like the talk among bird dog enthusiasts...you know the guys that find their dogs 1000yds away "still" on point...of course they shoot the bird and watch a perfect retrieve!!! I always laugh because I know that 99% of the birds shot in the country are probably by hunters that walk no farther than 200 yds to their dog....if that. And so it is with most of the big game too. | |||
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Several Points of interest here. Like old Elmer said: Shoot the biggest caliber that you can shoot accuratly. Some thing to that effect. Practice, practice, practice. I have seen so many guys pull out their guns a week before hunting season, clean them, buy ONE box of shells and declare them selves ready. They dont even check the damn sights. You need a light wieght gun, because stomping around the mountains is damn hard work. But put a good muzzle break on it and consider a mercury recoil reducer for the stock. I assume you don't hunt alone Try using the same tactics as the British snipers use. You both fire on it. If its his shot then you aim 18 inches in front of where you want your bullet to hit. You fire when he does. You will be about a half second later. The game will bolt into yours. Sounds silly but it works. John  Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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B-R-A-K-E It kinda hurts your creditability when you talk about something and can't even spell it.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I don't think "cleanly killed" are the correct words if the bull did in fact "run off". The real question is, if your friend, or you, or anyone else, would have used one of these cartridges that are being recommended, such as the .338 RUM, .375 H & H, etc, would that bull have really been cleanly killed, e.g. DRT. | |||
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| one of us |
For a while I used a .358 STA - 250 grain bullets @ just over 2800 FPS across the chrono. A solid heart/lung shot elk would go up to 100 yds before collapsing, just as they would when I used an '06. Before that I used a .300 Jarrett - 200 grain bullets @ just over 3000 FPS. Once I hit one just a little too far back and he went for a quater mile before dropping. I don't know how far the elk in question here went before someone else got it, maybe it wasn't far, or maybe the shot "well behind the shoulder" was a little too well behind the shoulder. I had a cow walk out of a timber jungle a few years ago and where she stood I could walk a horse right up to. If she bolted it meant an ugly carry on my back. The shot was 292 lasered yards and the Barnes TSX broke both shoulders dropping her in her tracks. The gun was a .300 WSM loaded down to '06 levels. After over 30 years of hunting, guiding, and outfitting, I really believe it doesn't matter so much what you are shooting, what matters is good shot placement, and a bullet up to the task when a tough shot is called for. IMO for what it's worth.  | |||
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I've shot a lot of antlerless deer at long range with my .338-.378 Weatherby (225-grain Nosler Accubonds at 3,330 fps. Two does I got at about 420 and 450 yards ran about 200 and 150 yards repectively before going down. Both were shot through the lungs and with both there was about a 2-inch exit hole. Deer hit further out never went that far. | |||
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A good shooting 280 with 160gr Accubonds is all you need. Free men should not be subjected to permits, paperwork and taxation in order to carry any firearm. NRA Benefactor | |||
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Some times, no matter how perfect the shot with the most perfect gun and bullet. The damn thing still runs flat out for 15 seconds and covers hundreds of yards. Me I dont go for the long range stuff any more. No hip No knee No fun walking. I'm jealous of you that do. Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Sorry, I'm gonna put those "perfect" shots into the same file that holds the ones where a "perfect" heart shot was made and the deer ran off never to be found. An obvious bullet failure, right?  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I'd like to add that those shooting at big game at more then say, 500 yards should be thrown in the brig for animal cruelty. Wounding game for the sake of proving yourself a man is just stupid. Learn to actually HUNT the game persude, and close the distance. When ever I hear someone talk about the loooong range sniping crap, I know it is coming from a newbie, and nothing to do with being a sportsman. Beside that, most I've talked to about the long range stuff usually have no idea about what the range really is. They will point to a point 300 yards out and think it is twice that. What ever happened to HUNTING? | |||
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Any loooong range shots I take (over 400 yards)are measured with a laser range finder, so I know the range. I am not a nubie at it. My longest 33 shots average over 600 yards. I don't shoot if windage is uncertain so don't wound animals. So far no long range animals have escaped. Lots of Iowa hunters drive deer and shoot at running animals. It generally sounds like a war with all the shooting. I don't drive hunt but saw a deer harvested that way. It had 8 holes in it. I think 2 or 3 were in vital areas. I suspect all the hits were made from short ranges and I suspect there were more misses than hits. I also suspect some of the hunters taking part in that hunt would dissaprove of my long distance hunting. | |||
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While it is not my cup of tea, the for real long distance shooters are a dedicated bunch with specialized equipment and techniques. They practice, practice, pracitce. They are not that common. More often than not, what you have is a fellow that has read about somebody killing something at xxxx "LAZERED" yards and figures well, if he can, I can. Hell, I hit the 600 yard gong 4 times out of 10 at the range one day. They are the long range equivilent of the slob that pulls old trusty rusty out of the closet the night before the season opens and hollers at his wife about where's his bullets. And too, as hard as it is to believe, some people lie. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I've seen videos showing an Iraqi terrorist supposidly getting hit from a mile away. And read stories like it is normal for a good sniper. I suspect there are lots of shots fired for each terrorist shot at 2000 yards. Trajectory is the easy part if one has a scope set up to compensate for distance a a laser rangefinder. Windage is the problem. Just looking at a ballistics table will show that for my .338-.378 there is 20 inches of wind drift at 600 yards for a 10-mph crosswind. For 1200 yards the windage would be around 80 inches. I will only shot if my estimated windage is around 10 inches or less. At 600 yards that means a 5 mph or slower crosswind. At 1200 yards that would be barely a 1 mph croswwind and I can not estimate wind that accurately and suspect few people can, especially when wind conditions might be a lot different at the target than by the shooter. Consequently for shots over 700 yards it needs to be fairly calm or I will not shoot at a deer. Anyway, it did not take much for me to figure out that 800 yards is a good practical maximum distance for shooting at animals with a vital area about 12 inches in diameter even in the best conditions. I bought a video on long distance hunting and their conclusion was about the same. The wind drift for military sniper rifles may be less than for my rifle, but I doubt that any military sniper can routinely kill enemy solders at 1500 yards on the first try. However, with the right equipment one can regularly hit a deer in a vital area at 600 yards, but one must also be willing to pass up shots where there is too much wind. | |||
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  ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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It's never happened to me but if I were to kill an elk and it had another bullet hole in it, say one of those "perfect" heart shots that clipped a lung, how long do I have to camp out to see if Ole Dan'l is gonna come blundering thru the woods to claim "his" elk so's I wouldn't be considered a "less than ethical idiot"? Should I gut "his" elk for him whilst I wait? Maybe Ole Dan'l should have practiced shot placement a little more (maybe bought TWO boxes of ammo)instead of just shooting for the big middle. 'Cause a properly hit elk ain't going too far. You box a year guys that shoot for the big middle, thinking a double lung is going to bring an elk down like a 100# WT, are way wrong. A lung shot elk can change postal zones before he goes down. 'Course, if you do track up to the fellow that does kill him, you can start bitching about him taking "your" elk. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I curious. What kind of rest do you use, when taking these 400 to 600 yard shots? How much hold over?
Military snipers work with a spotter using windage and ranging gauges. They routinely practice on 1000 yard ranges. 8" 5 shot groups are not unusual. It's very hard to believe that anyone can make "33" 400 to 600 yard kill shots routinely, and claim to have never wounded an animal. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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700 yards! This is exactly what's going to put an end to big game hunting. I have talked to more then a few hunters that have had bullets stricking around them as they were attempting to stalk closer to the animals to get a good clean kill. I call it slob hunting. Learn to actually HUNT and and there would be no need for stupid stunts like that. Crap! | |||
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I guess this will probably make some people mad but, I would feel pretty confident in saying that there is a lot more game wounded with a bow than a rifle. The problem is people don't practice at the distance they intend to hunt. The dedicated long range hunter practices regularly at long ranges. After saying that I also don't think that we should be telling people how they should hunt; that should be a personal choice. | |||
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"Ethics" Ethical hunting deems that you get as close as possible to your game, and kill it as quickly and as humanely as possible. In other words, respect your game. Long range shooting is one thing, but no matter how good you think you are, killing at long range just to prove a point is just killing, with a better than good chance of just maiming or wounding. I'm a fair long range shot , but a milk jug doesn't mind a bullet wound. I agree with you completely on bow hunters. I'll save that for another time. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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I think what is ethical and what is not is a personal choice. I don't think we should condone what another hunter or sportsman is doing as long as it is legal. You are right a wounded elk or deer or whatever is bad for our image, but what causes us, as hunters, more problems is the fact that we can't stick together. How often do you see or hear of PETA arguing with hsus? If we see a particular law allowing a lot of wounded game or something we can and should try to get the law changed; but we should not condone the hunter. | |||
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For a rest for long range shots I normally use a large bag filled with birdseed. As far as hold over, my .338-.378 has the main crosshairs zeroed for 300 yards and it has range compensating dots for 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 yards. It is not difficult to figure out where to hold for a deer that may be 650 rather than either 600 or 700 yards. I also check the zero for long distances. The reticle is a custom one installed by Premier Reticles and I gave them the ballistics information for the reticle based on the load I shoot (the 225-grain Nosler Accubond). I am not much of a woodsman, but put in a lot of work researching and putting together the needed equipment, and developing loads, and making sure the sights are on, and making sure I can hit well. Also, the long range deer shooting may not seem fair where there are not enough deer to go around. However, where I hunt the regular "only-want-to-shoot-a-buck" hunters don't buy up the antlerless permits. Several farmers whose land I hunt on have a problem with too many deer. The deer are costing them thousands of $$$ per year in crop damage. I shoot their antlerless deer because the other hunters don't want to. Also, during the buck season, I too can only use a shotgun with slugs and must get closer. During the shotgun buck season I use a single shot 20-ga rather than a repeater. Does that give me sportsman points? | |||
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Just because it's not illegal, doesn't mean it's right. Lots of things are legal, but not acceptable or proper. That's where ethics come into the equation. When folks start abusing legality, laws are changed, and it becomes illegal and all of us get to pay for the abuse committed by a few. Hunting is a privilige, not a right. When the line is pushed, and we develope an "In your face" attitude with piviliges, we tend to lose them. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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How close is that? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Ever one is not limited to your limitatins _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I curious. What kind of rest do you use, when taking these 400 to 600 yard shots? How much hold over?
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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As they say, When the other side stoops to personal insults. You have won the argument. BTW, it's spelled "Limitations". "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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I just finished a .338 Edge, yesterday and shot it for barrel brake-in. While doing the break-in we sighted in the Nightforce scope. The 8th thru 12th shots were at 700 yrds at a 12" gong. First shot was 3 moa wide right, perfect elevation. Dialled in 3 moa left and the next three were on center. Shot the last 6 at 100 yrds. and the group measured .485. I think the .338 Edge is the best long range elk gun I know. This gun has the following parts: Krieger 1-9.3 twist barrel, Stiller Predator action, a Manors stock, Jewwell trigger, Wyatt mag box, Defencive Edge brake, Defencive Edge 20 moa rail and a Nightforce scope. This one was built for a gentleman in Alaska. SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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i doubt there are more bowhunters wounding game than rifle hunters. the shear numbers of rifle hunters dwarfs bowhunters. everybody and their brother rifle hunts. | |||
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Go with the 338 RUM nad a good bullet like the 250 gr PT or AB. My 700 LSS 338 RUM pushes the 250 gr PT at 3024 fps. Put it in the off shoulder. JD338 | |||
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You are correct. I should have said a higher percentage of game. This is not downing anyone that hunts with a bow. I was just using this to make a point. I hunt with a bow also. | |||
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Who's been personaly insulted? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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There are those that are capable of taking game at 500 yards,I have personally witnessed it. I am NOT one of those and feel alot folks can't cleanly take animals at 500 yards and don't practice enough. With that being said I feel my 300 weatherby mag is capable of longer range shots with a premium bullet and a ton of practice. | |||
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My Elk outfitter that I use in New Mexico said that the Bow Hunters that he has taken out wound and loose for more Elk than his rifle or muzzle loader hunters do. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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coonhunter, Your comment concerning ethics being a matter of individual taste (paraphrasing here) is touchy; to follow your logic leads us down a slippery slope. You see, if ethics were truly a matter merely for the individual to determine then we would enter the realm of ethical relativism. In other words, it's all about me. The reason this position is intellectually difficult and ultimately untenable is because we are social beings. In fact, you participate in group ethics constantly and may not even be aware or it. For example, most state departments of fisheries and wildlife set minimum caliber restrictions on various classes of game. If you hunt there you can be said to subscribe to the same standards. The department in question has at its base an ethical duty to the pursued animal to see that those pursuing it have capable means to dispatch it swiftly to reduce undue suffering. At the level of the hunter who abides by the rule it may be said to be merely adherence to the law, but it is also adherence to the underlying ethics as outlined by the department. Ethical relativism is part of the problem here in the modern US culture today. I'm certainly not suggesting automaton behavior since ethics is certainly a subject ripe for vigorous discussion but hopefully you get the point that purely individual ethical choices with no consideration for the larger ethics of the group is simply the age old Chinese philosophical problem of the one and the many. | |||
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You have a good point. But i still think there is some room for individual ethics. It is like hunting over bait. Hunting with dogs. Some agree, some do not. I see no problem with anyone shooting at an elk, or any other animal, at any range as long as they have the skill to consistently make the shot and the equipment to do it. I certainly would not advocate someone shooting at game beyond their limitations. This is a good topic and is one that needs to be taken seriously with all the anti hunting organizations out there. | |||
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