quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I have seen elk go a ways after being hit with a lot of different cartridges. Whatever you choose make sure it has the velocity at the range you are going to shoot to expand the bullet. A lot of bullets don't expand well or at all at 500 yards.

+1

Another reason I don't like the 6.5mm or other small caliber arguments. Lacking frontal area. Once a pencil thin caliber reaches 500 yards, it better make it through the shoulder then explode. Difficult to find a proper bullet to do this. A Nosler Accubond or Berger VLD might be the best choice.

If you really want a long-range rifle that still has the energy remaining at long distance to kill tough game, look at the ballistics of the 378 Wby....3,200 fps with a 270gr spire point, 3,200ft/lbs of energy remaining at 400 yards. I have a custom 378 with a blueprinted action, Pacnor barrel, McMillan Express stock, NECG sights, trigger worked and bedded by Charlie Sisk, that has shot under an inch at 300 yards. Recoil is not more than a 300Win...an incredible rifle!

Deffinatly a Nosler Accubond should do the trick. maybe try and load it at the max possible load and then make your gun accurate around that. Then go get REAL good at shooting clay pigeon targets at 500 yrds, then after you master that get REAL good at shooting the small pieces left over. Once you can do that your ready to drop animals in there tracks.

My first animal kill resulted in a long track and a secondary shot. Recently I spent alot of time at a range honing my skills and pulling my .308 into a spot about the sizee of a quarter. When Mr whitetail stepped into my field of view this past november, he never took a step. Put it right at the top of his should where the ball and socket meet and dropped him cold...Shot was at a little more then 100 yrds, shot him with a 165 grain federal trophy bonded tip, which is a factory load. but my rifle is crazy accurate for a stock Remington 700 BDL with a short barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you really want a long-range rifle that still has the energy remaining at long distance to kill tough game, look at the ballistics of the 378 Wby....3,200 fps with a 270gr spire point, 3,200ft/lbs of energy remaining at 400 yards. I have a custom 378 with a blueprinted action, Pacnor barrel, McMillan Express stock, NECG sights, trigger worked and bedded by Charlie Sisk, that has shot under an inch at 300 yards. Recoil is not more than a 300Win...an incredible rifle!

I'm gonna sound like a self righteous ole jerk but be that as it may, here goes.
I really don't want to start a disagreement and I know I should just move on to another thread....but. Ya ever heard of "Newtons law of motion"? "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".???

A 270 grain .378 Weatherby at 3,200FPS and it doesn't kick any worse than a .300 Win??...Please!!!


I took this off a free recoil chart.
........................................ rifle weight.........recoil energy......recoil velocity.

.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960)......8.5.................25.9.................14.0.


378 Wby. Mag. (300 at 2900).......10.25...............71.1.................n/a.

I know it's not a 270 grain it's a 300 but then it's 2.900FPS and not 3,2000 either and it's almost 2 lbs heavier of a rifle than the .300.
Recoil's the same, really?

I shoot a .300 Win with 190 grain Hornady Interlocks at approx 3,000FPS, have been for years. I been hunting elk since I was 12 and I'm 61. I hate these kinda topics cause every time I read one I know elk are gonna get shot in the butt. We find what's left of em up in the mountains every spring after the coyotes are done with em.
I help out each year at our local range when we have our 2 public sight in days to raise money for the club. Course I probably don't see the guys with the serious boomers that can shoot well with em at public sight ins cause they'd be practiceing a lot alone I reckon. I know there are some of em to be sure...but, the guys I do see with em are for the most part seriously lacking in ability to put it mildly. Amazing rounds ballisticlly but "Mothers to master" and I don't care who made em.
Whatever happened to hunting skills? If a guy has em, why on earth does he need a 270 grain bullet at 3,200FPS which'll carry 95 percent of it's deliverable energy with it when it exits the far side of an elk at 300 yards anyway. 300 yards by the way, whether anyone agrees with me or not is a long shot on an elk.

There, that's my 2 cents so go ahead and flame my ass but at least I got to get in in here and some a you "shooters" know I'm right.
I do apologize also to those of you that have one a these big "BANGERS" and actually have practiced with em enough to really use em, I'm sure you already know who you are. To you I meant no offense.
There ya go, now fire away. Maybe I am a just a self righteous ole jerk (been called worse) but I dang sure love elk huntin enough to have an opinion on this topic.

Montdoug, don't ask about hunting skills. They don't count. You might have to get out of sight of the truck and then you're fucked.
Besides, then you can't come into cyberspace and post that you've kilt him at 527.3 "LAZERED" yards.

quote:

Montdoug, don't ask about hunting skills. They don't count. You might have to get out of sight of the truck and then you're fucked

JWP475, you are the exception. Not the rule.

jwp's not the exception. He does what is necessary -- from equipping himself properly, to preparing through lot's of practice. So, how is he the exception?

270gr at 3,200 fps....the topic was long-range shooting, I believe? Yes, the 378 does generate more recoil that a 300 Win Mag, but with a brake and sufficient rifle weight, it is quite tolerable. I have rifles for Africa in 458 Lott, 450 NE, 460 Guns & Ammo, 600 Overkill, and 700 AHR, so I'm somewhat used to rifles that hit back...all part of the game.

I'll not saying I'm an advocate of shooting Elk at 500 yards, or shooting more caliber than you can handle, or that caliber X is superior to caliber Z. Use the rifle you choose, hunt the way you choose, and relax, be happy!

quote:

Originally posted by 500 Fan:
In reference to AzGuy's BS call; I can't say I can shoot sub moa @ 200 yards but I can shoot sub 1.5" @ 200 yards with Nosler 200 grain BT. Three shots will take a 1" paster off the target. Clean barrel after two fouling shots and three shots in about 90 seconds will shoot right at 1 1/4" and that's outside spread not centers. If ya wanna shoot it contact me and you can come up this summer and shoot it for yourself. Factory Remington Sendero 338 RUM.

Regards,

Well MOA at 200 yards is roughly 2" so yeah you can shot sub MOA at 200 yards. And it ain't that big of a deal. I can do it with several of my rifles all day every day as long as the wind ain't blowing to hard.

I don't know what Azguy is talking about exactley.

MOA at 200 yards with a properly set up modern rifle shouldn't even be an issue for a half way competent shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
270gr at 3,200 fps....the topic was long-range shooting, I believe? Yes, the 378 does generate more recoil that a 300 Win Mag, but with a brake and sufficient rifle weight, it is quite tolerable. I have rifles for Africa in 458 Lott, 450 NE, 460 Guns & Ammo, 600 Overkill, and 700 AHR, so I'm somewhat used to rifles that hit back...all part of the game.

I'll not saying I'm an advocate of shooting Elk at 500 yards, or shooting more caliber than you can handle, or that caliber X is superior to caliber Z. Use the rifle you choose, hunt the way you choose, and relax, be happy!

"QUOTE"
Biebs
Posted Wed Dec 23 2009 8:16 AM
If you really want a long-range rifle that still has the energy remaining at long distance to kill tough game, look at the ballistics of the 378 Wby....3,200 fps with a 270gr spire point, 3,200ft/lbs of energy remaining at 400 yards. I have a custom 378 with a blueprinted action, Pacnor barrel, McMillan Express stock, NECG sights, trigger worked and bedded by Charlie Sisk, that has shot under an inch at 300 yards. "RECOIL IS NOT MORE THAN A 300Win"...an incredible rifle!
"QUOTE

"RECOIL IS NOT MORE THAN A 300Win"...an incredible rifle!

That's what I responded to, it's a ridiculous statement! I shoot, "a lot". Read the chart I posted 25.9 ft lbs of free recoil as opposed to 71.1 ft. lbs. , give me a break!
Not to mention the whole concept of seeing how far one can shoot an elk. I stand by the opinion that for every guy out there that actually masters a big banger and has the ability to dope wind across various valleys etc and humanely harvest an elk at "long range" for what ever reason he feels compelled to do it, there are 10 that feel that long distance thumper is going to make up for his inability to actually hunt and get close enough to take what is considered by most a reasonable shot.
It's called "stunt" shooting. I've lived out here all my life and I've watched this phenomena transpire, it disgusts me quite frankly.
Have you ever heard of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation? Do you have any idea how hard some people work to preserve this sport some of us have cherished for years? So some clown can join the "1,000 yard club" Ya suppose? For every clown that joins that club how many nice bulls ya figure end up as coyote food? Who gives a shit, huh? It means a lot more than that, and for those unaware of it I pity em cause they got no idea what their missing and they never will!

JWP IS the exception for the very reason that he does prepare. And obviously has the equipment. As he knows, there is a lot more to long range shooting than whanging away at the 600 yard gong and hitting it 4 times out of 10. Those were the ones my generic remarks were directed at. The ones that if they shoot at an animal at 627 "LAZERED" yards, couldn't find the spot where it was standing, much less begin to track it.
If you and JWP want to lump youselves with that sort of hunter, it's your call. I would think you'd be as quick to censor them as the rest of us.

quote:

It's called "stunt" shooting. I've lived out here all my life and I've watched this phenomena transpire, it disgusts me quite frankly.
Have you ever heard of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation? Do you have any idea how hard some people work to preserve this sport some of us have cherished for years? So some clown can join the "1,000 yard club" Ya suppose? For every clown that joins that club how many nice bulls ya figure end up as coyote food? Who gives a shit, huh? It means a lot more than that, and for those unaware of it I pity em cause they got no idea what their missing and they never will!

Didn't say anything about over-shooting one's skills. Didn't say anything about using more gun than one can handle. Didn't say anything about shooting live animal at 1,000 yards.

I hunt mostly with a double rifle these days, whether it's Cape Buffalo or Whitetail Deer, so a 75 yard shot is on the long side for me. I've taken enough game over the past 57 years that I'm in it more for the hunt than for the taking of game. But that's just me...and I respect other's wants and right to hunt as they see fit and sporting.

Keep a tight hold on the high horse you're riding..sounds like for you it would long way down!

quote:

Montdoug, don't ask about hunting skills. They don't count. You might have to get out of sight of the truck and then you're fucked.
Besides, then you can't come into cyberspace and post that you've kilt him at 527.3 "LAZERED" yards

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
JWP475, you are the exception. Not the rule.

The problem is you made a blanket statement meaning that long range hunters are slob hunter and that is not true. I learned from true long range hunters and they are well prepaired, equiped ethical hunters.

You are trying to define unethical slob hunters by distance, when if fact they are and should be defined by actions.

And yes I have hunted up close and personal

I really don't care from what distance game is shot as long as it goes down in a heap ASAP. But, the hunt should be about matching wits with the quarry....and standing off 4-800 yds just really isn't my "personal" idea of hunting. Stalking them up close is a test that I enjoy and more closely defines what I think hunting should be.

I feel pretty good with my Sauer 202 in either 243 or 7 Mag out to 400 yds...but I will always try to get inside 100 before I shoot.

I think there are a couple different lines of discussion going on here. I'm not making a blanket statement about long distance hunters although I do not understand the desire to hunt that way . I was in the Corps and I've known snipers that would change it from elk hunting to elk killing, period! Humane? Absolutely! Challenging? Not for them! See the elk, kill the elk. Fun huh? My beef was with a .378 Weatherby that was shooting 270 grain bullets at 3,200 FPS that didnt kick anymore than a .300 Win Mag .
I guess maybe I am being to judgmental, if so sorry. I took my first elk at 12 with my uncles model 71 Winchester .348 at about 75 yards. We live on elk meat at our house, it'd take a hell-of-a Bull anymore to keep me from shooting a chubby alfalfa and grain fed cow like I have for the last 9 years straight since I was sick and missed a couple years. Last 2 years we've had cow reduction hunts and both years I've shot our cow and this year one for my son and his family cause he's working his butt off and the year before I took one for a disabled friend. All of em up close and personal.
To me sneaky footing up the mountains tell your first indication their there is ya smell em and then getting the drop on em without getting busted, to me "THAT'S" hunting.
I shoot long range as well, my true passion is sub .22 caliber wildcats (.17's and .20's) on p-dogs and rock chucks. I've shot rock chucks at near 700 yards and beau-coups p-dogs well over 500. But big game is a whole different deal, I respect those animals in a way I don't nuisance critters like chucks and p-dogs.
My favorite hunting is with a hand gun, jwp475 we probably have more in common than we don't.
I got this fella a couple years back.



I've stated my piece, I'll quit while I just sound like a self righteous butt-head and before it sounds even worse than that.

Hey, nice Mulies...with a handgun! Now you're talking close range!

Nice Buck..

If we try to define hunting by distance we are treading on a very slippery slope IMHO that is my point. I have no qualm with how any one chooses to hunt. Although I find it a bit more difficult than "see the Elk kill the ELK" in terms of long range hunting. Even at close range it eventualy turns to shooting unless we decide to let the animal pass.

Good hunting

JPW,

Thank you for the posts and motivation. You are like me and use the gear to get the job done and get the meat in the freezer.

That is how every serious meat hunter should be equipped if they are truly serious about feeding the family.

I cringe when middle-aged people balk at technology as simple as a premium bullet. They feel content to shoot there grandpa's war rifle with roundnose bullets. These are the type of hunters who shoot at running game and wound animals.

Good stuff!!

JPW,

Thank you for the posts and motivation. You are like me and use the gear to get the job done and get the meat in the freezer.

The irony is with the Internet today, a person can buy quality parts and build a rifle as well as get good gear. $2000.00 can go a long ways now including rifle, scope, rings, bi-pod, trigger, reloading gear(Lee), bino's, pack and clothing.

That is how every serious meat hunter should be equipped if they are truly serious about feeding the family.

I cringe when middle-aged people balk at technology as simple as a premium bullet. They feel content to shoot there grandpa's war rifle with roundnose bullets. These are the type of hunters who shoot at running game and wound animals.

Good stuff!!

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
JPW,

Thank you for the posts and motivation. You are like me and use the gear to get the job done and get the meat in the freezer.

The irony is with the Internet today, a person can buy quality parts and build a rifle as well as get good gear. $2000.00 can go a long ways now including rifle, scope, rings, bi-pod, trigger, reloading gear(Lee), bino's, pack and clothing.

That is how every serious meat hunter should be equipped if they are truly serious about feeding the family.

I cringe when middle-aged people balk at technology as simple as a premium bullet. They feel content to shoot there grandpa's war rifle with roundnose bullets. These are the type of hunters who shoot at running game and wound animals.

Good stuff!!

"They are the ones that shoot at running game and wound animals".

You gotta be kidding me.
Like I said, "the clowns abound"!
"Peace Through Firepower Superiority" Huh? Yeah, Right!
"Buy a bigger gun so you can get er done".
Now I understand. How'd I ever harvest so many animals over all these years without knowing that , musta just been lucky I guess. Just think how much deader they'd a been if I'd had more technology .
There it is fellas, technology is the answer! Gotta love that post!

I was all set to let this thread die a natural death but then you read a post like AR Corey"s and my blood goes back up above 214 degrees.
Yup! Buy that equipment, talk that talk. Pose and posture in cyberspace. Practice......? Say what? I don't need to practice. I've got the best equipment money can buy, I don't need to practice. I can buy my way into the winner's circle...... Right? I've got a high dollar range finder. Its still in the box 'cause I didn't want to scratch it. Got a computer generated drop chart taped to the side of my stock, that always adds a nice touch. Etc.
JWP, these are the folks you are defending. When someone talks about slob hunters, I don't get my hackles up. When someone curls their lips and badmouths box a year shooters, it don't bother me. 'Cause I know it ain't me. Like I said, you can lump yourself with those people if you want. It's your call.
I will tell AR Corey that if there is a luddite on the forum, it is me. I do not believe in re-inventing the wheel. I use what has worked for me, and worked very well if I may say so. It doesn't interest me to be the first kid on the block with the latest toy. But that doesn't make me a bad person, nor a stupid person. Madison Avenue is alive and well because of people like him.

Hey, AR Corey, how many folks do you reckon go out every year and harvest a years worth of wild meat with a 710 and a BSA scope?

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I was all set to let this thread die a natural death but then you read a post like AR Corey"s and my blood goes back up above 214 degrees.
Yup! Buy that equipment, talk that talk. Pose and posture in cyberspace. Practice......? Say what? I don't need to practice. I've got the best equipment money can buy, I don't need to practice. I can buy my way into the winner's circle...... Right? I've got a high dollar range finder. Its still in the box 'cause I didn't want to scratch it. Got a computer generated drop chart taped to the side of my stock, that always adds a nice touch. Etc.
JWP, these are the folks you are defending. When someone talks about slob hunters, I don't get my hackles up. When someone curls their lips and badmouths box a year shooters, it don't bother me. 'Cause I know it ain't me. Like I said, you can lump yourself with those people if you want. It's your call.
I will tell AR Corey that if there is a luddite on the forum, it is me. I do not believe in re-inventing the wheel. I use what has worked for me, and worked very well if I may say so. It doesn't interest me to be the first kid on the block with the latest toy. But that doesn't make me a bad person, nor a stupid person. Madison Avenue is alive and well because of people like him.

Hey, AR Corey, how many folks do you reckon go out every year and harvest a years worth of wild meat with a 710 and a BSA scope?

Apparenty I have not been clear enough, I allign with Long Range Hunters, not slob hunters. That's as plain as I can put it. A Long Range Hunter practices and is competant in his ability. There is a certain amount of euipment that makes the job easier such as a range finder, but of course short range hunters use them as well, even Bow hunters.
You are still trying to define slob hunters by distance instead of actions

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Apparenty I have not been clear enough, I allign with Long Range Hunters, not slob hunters. That's as plain as I can put it. A Long Range Hunter practices and is competant in his ability. There is a certain amount of euipment that makes the job easier such as a range finder, but of course short range hunters use them as well, even Bow hunters.
You are still trying to define slob hunters by distance instead of actions

For years I hunted whitetails only with my S&W 629 - never missed and never needed more than one shot. When my dad and I decided it was time to fulfill a dream and head to Colorado for Elk, the shot was nearly 400 yards away and it took one shot with my .416 to bring my Elk home.

My point is the same as that of jwp475 - neither of these "feats" occurs by accident and anyone who is a hunter prepares properly whether 50 or 500 yards. My dad and I practiced incessently before our trip from Brooklyn, NY to CO for our one and only chance to go elk hunting. If an elk was at 600 yards - we would know we had to get closer since we never practiced at that distance BUT we had practiced regularly at 50 to 500. If we could get within 50 yards - we would have but if our guide says (and in my case did say) take this shot, we would and I did. That was after a long and hard stalk and getting closer was just not going to happen.

mountdoug, I am not disagreeing with you - getting as close as you can is part of the thrill and honor of hunting. Sometimes it just isn't reasonable or possible. I bet that jwp475 has never thought "Oh, I am too close to that, let me back up a few hundred yards." I've never thought or said that either.

As Dirty Harry said "A mans gotta know his limitations" and that differentiates the slob from the hunter in my opinion. I have actually seen far more slobs take shots at close range (under 50 yards) than attempt long-range shots. I dont hunt with any of them after seeing their behavior once.

Finally, I don't think it fair to say "slob hunter". One can be either/or but not both.

Stay well,
Paul

I never said slob hunter anywhere in my posts, I think some might just be a bit over sensitive .
I also never said I've never harvested an elk, deer or antelope at long range cause I have. I shoot a BDL700 that's been tweaked, pillar bedded, re-crowned, lugs lapped etc etc. To top it off it's one of those anomaly's that shoots way better than it oughta anyway.
Every year I check it's sight in and it's amazingly boring, first round down a clean cold barrel (actually it has a film of colloidal graphite run down it first) goes an inch and a half or so right, then the next 3 cluster into a sweet little cloverleaf dead center. Like this.



Then I go prone with a Harris S bi-pod and fire three more at 100, like this.



The load I shoot is enough RL22 under a "geriatric" old Hornady 190 grain Interlock BTSP to produce these numbers off a ballistic program. Note what starts happening in wind drift and drop about 450 to 500 yards+ on that chart.

Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: .300 Win Mag with 190 Hornady SPBT
Ballistic Coeff: 0.491
Bullet Weight: 190
Velocity: 3000
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 35
Altitude: 5500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3000 fps 3797 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.14 in 2958 fps 3691 fpe 0.025 sec 0.12 in -0.57 in 0.03 in
50 yds 0.98 in 2916 fps 3587 fpe 0.051 sec 0.49 in -0.48 in 0.11 in
75 yds 1.84 in 2875 fps 3486 fpe 0.076 sec 1.11 in -0.32 in 0.26 in
100 yds 2.43 in 2834 fps 3387 fpe 0.103 sec 2.00 in -0.09 in 0.49 in
125 yds 2.75 in 2793 fps 3291 fpe 0.130 sec 3.16 in 0.22 in 0.80 in
150 yds 2.79 in 2753 fps 3197 fpe 0.157 sec 4.60 in 0.59 in 1.17 in
175 yds 2.55 in 2713 fps 3105 fpe 0.184 sec 6.33 in 1.05 in 1.62 in
200 yds 2.00 in 2673 fps 3015 fpe 0.212 sec 8.36 in 1.59 in 2.14 in
225 yds 1.16 in 2634 fps 2927 fpe 0.240 sec 10.69 in 2.21 in 2.72 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2595 fps 2841 fpe 0.269 sec 13.33 in 2.92 in 3.37 in
275 yds -1.47 in 2557 fps 2758 fpe 0.298 sec 16.28 in 3.72 in 4.08 in
300 yds -3.26 in 2519 fps 2676 fpe 0.328 sec 19.55 in 4.61 in 4.85 in
325 yds -5.42 in 2481 fps 2596 fpe 0.358 sec 23.20 in 5.62 in 5.75 in
350 yds -7.88 in 2443 fps 2518 fpe 0.388 sec 27.14 in 6.71 in 6.66 in
375 yds -10.72 in 2406 fps 2442 fpe 0.419 sec 31.47 in 7.92 in 7.68 in
400 yds -13.96 in 2369 fps 2368 fpe 0.450 sec 36.18 in 9.24 in 8.80 in
425 yds -17.59 in 2332 fps 2295 fpe 0.482 sec 41.30 in 10.69 in 10.02 in
450 yds -21.63 in 2296 fps 2224 fpe 0.514 sec 46.82 in 12.26 in 11.35 in
475 yds -26.10 in 2260 fps 2155 fpe 0.548 sec 52.77 in 13.97 in 12.77 in
500 yds -31.00 in 2225 fps 2088 fpe 0.581 sec 59.15 in 15.82 in 14.29 in
525 yds -36.33 in 2189 fps 2022 fpe 0.615 sec 65.97 in 17.80 in 15.90 in
550 yds -42.12 in 2155 fps 1958 fpe 0.650 sec 73.24 in 19.93 in 17.59 in
575 yds -48.36 in 2120 fps 1896 fpe 0.685 sec 80.96 in 22.21 in 19.38 in
600 yds -55.06 in 2085 fps 1835 fpe 0.721 sec 89.14 in 24.65 in 21.25 in
625 yds -62.22 in 2051 fps 1775 fpe 0.757 sec 97.80 in 27.24 in 23.20 in
650 yds -69.87 in 2017 fps 1717 fpe 0.793 sec 106.92 in 29.99 in 25.24 in
675 yds -78.25 in 1984 fps 1661 fpe 0.831 sec 116.79 in 32.99 in 27.51 in
700 yds -86.80 in 1951 fps 1605 fpe 0.869 sec 126.82 in 36.07 in 29.67 in
725 yds -96.02 in 1918 fps 1551 fpe 0.907 sec 137.53 in 39.37 in 32.01 in
750 yds -105.92 in 1885 fps 1499 fpe 0.946 sec 148.90 in 42.90 in 34.51 in
775 yds -116.50 in 1853 fps 1449 fpe 0.986 sec 160.97 in 46.67 in 37.17 in
800 yds -127.79 in 1822 fps 1400 fpe 1.027 sec 173.74 in 50.68 in 39.99 in

Over the course of a number of years I have occasion to take a long shot. I shoot probably 3,000 to ,4000 rounds of centerfire rifle a year. I know this rifle well, I never as in "NEVER" shoot at running game unless I'm under 75 or so yards so if the wind is calm which is seldom, and the animal is standing dead still/broadside I occasionally feel real comfortable taking a long shot and by that I mean 400ish+. At that distance the round will usually stay inside the animal and my butcher has returned a few to me. Always retrieved off the far side a the critter. Closer by much and it's through and through so delivered energy is a moot point, it exited with the bullet.
Here's a couple of returned projectiles. Ancient technology, geriatric old Hornady Interlock 190 grain BTSP's with a .491BC and a .286SD.



I've never shot an elk twice in my life and I've never had a wounded getaway and that ain't brag, if I ain't certain I don't squeeze.

The only reason I am going through this vast and boring explanation is cause I want you to understand just how reading that post by a yapping little puppy like AR Corey with a head full of magazine knowledge hot air and the anonymity of of the web to hide behind pisses a guy off when the little weasel runs down the "Middle aged, long time hunters as the problem" (I sure hope I'm middle aged, 124 sounds pretty good to me) for wounding animals and letting them get away .

Taking a long shot on occasion by someone who shoots enough to do it effectively isn't the issue with with me. It's the whole focus of what can I shoot to hit an elk at 500 yards cause I am to inept to get closer without scaring every animal off the mountain.

There, now I sound like a self righteous old prick that is judging others on how they hunt. Well I am and quite frankly more people oughta be cause elk hunting deserves it and some of ya damn sure know it.
I'm done.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

Hey, AR Corey, how many folks do you reckon go out every year and harvest a years worth of wild meat with a 710 and a BSA scope?

Hey, if I was guaranteed to see an elk every year I would agree.

Unfortunately and elk or a moose are a chance encounter where I hunt.

This leaves whitetail and mule deer. Can shoot 5 in total(3 mule, 2 white). The mule deer can be had but it is usually a long range shot.

You have mistaken me for some internet tactical enthusiast.

I am a meat hunter and grandpa's 30-30 isn't going to get results in the sandhills.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I was all set to let this thread die a natural death but then you read a post like AR Corey"s and my blood goes back up above 214 degrees.
Yup! Buy that equipment, talk that talk. Pose and posture in cyberspace. Practice......? Say what? I don't need to practice. I've got the best equipment money can buy, I don't need to practice. I can buy my way into the winner's circle...... Right? I've got a high dollar range finder. Its still in the box 'cause I didn't want to scratch it. Got a computer generated drop chart taped to the side of my stock, that always adds a nice touch. Etc.
JWP, these are the folks you are defending. When someone talks about slob hunters, I don't get my hackles up. When someone curls their lips and badmouths box a year shooters, it don't bother me. 'Cause I know it ain't me. Like I said, you can lump yourself with those people if you want. It's your call.
I will tell AR Corey that if there is a luddite on the forum, it is me. I do not believe in re-inventing the wheel. I use what has worked for me, and worked very well if I may say so. It doesn't interest me to be the first kid on the block with the latest toy. But that doesn't make me a bad person, nor a stupid person. Madison Avenue is alive and well because of people like him.

Hey, AR Corey, how many folks do you reckon go out every year and harvest a years worth of wild meat with a 710 and a BSA scope?

Apparenty I have not been clear enough, I allign with Long Range Hunters, not slob hunters. That's as plain as I can put it. A Long Range Hunter practices and is competant in his ability. There is a certain amount of euipment that makes the job easier such as a range finder, but of course short range hunters use them as well, even Bow hunters.
You are still trying to define slob hunters by distance instead of actions

Very well said, jwp!

I always read these threads with great interest when hunting ethics are being defined for other hunters.

I have great respect for the hunters that know their rifles and loads well enough to effectively take game at long distances. IMO they wound less game than all of the guys that show up at the range the weekend before deer season and shoot three rounds with two on paper and call it good or better yet boresight a rifle and go hunting.

There are a few things that do bother me. Last year at DSC there was a vendor selling a long range system using a 243 and showing elk kills at 800 plus yards. Just buy the rifle and scope use the dots and you can do it too. If you are going to shoot animals at distance at least use enough gun and practice at the actual distance. And most important learn to read the wind.

I have shot far more than most from 600 to 1000 yards (High Power rifle matches). 600 is fairly easy, 1000 is tough 66% further than 600 but the wind affects the bullet roughly three times as much at 1000.

With that being said I have a question for the long range guys that do practice and are good at their trade, actually two questions.

First, I know you have an anemometer where you are shooting, but how do you read the wind downrange? If you are shooting across a draw can you read the mirage?

Second, what are your limitations? when do you not shoot? 15 MPH crosswind at 600? or 5 MPH wind at 900, etc?

Actually that was more the two questions.

BTW I feel your pains about ethics being questioned. I hunted elephant in Zim this year. It is unbelivable the number of hunters that either thought elephants are endangered and I should not shoot them, and the other fellow hunters who just thought it was wrong to kill a poor defenseless elephant.

Mike, your comments actually address the subject of this thread. A breath of fresh air. I too have found wind to be the biggest challenge to long range shooting. I carry an anemometer and use it. I'm not much good at reading mirage, because it's a tool I haven't used enough. When wind speed gets over 10 mph I get pretty hesitant to shoot out over 400 yds. I take time to observe the movement of grass or branch at my location as well as at my targets location, and a few points in between. If it all appears pretty consistent I feel confident in dialing in my windage and elevation and taking the shot. I have done enough shooting out to 650 yards to know that the wind can blow bullets around to a surprising degree. My self imposed limit is 500 yards but only if I have a steady shooting position and favorable, for me, wind conditions. I use computer generated ballistics charts and then field test them, including the wind drift component, in the field using anemometer and laser rangefinder. For all that, in 36 years of big game hunting and nearly 50 elk taken, I have only shot one at around 500 yards. The vast majority have been under 200 yards. Nearly all of my long range hunting has been after varmints.

It's always apparent when someone asks about trajectory of a particular bullet at X distance instead of it's BC and ability to buck the wind that they do not understand long range hunting/shooting

Example the 338 cal 300 grain SMK with its .768 BC will have almost 1/2 the wind drift at 1000 as will the 250 grain SMK at 400 FPS faster starting velocity. Yes the 250 will shoot flatter, but trajectory compisation is a know quantity and is easily compensated for.

Wind is always the toughest

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you really want a long-range rifle that still has the energy remaining at long distance to kill tough game, look at the ballistics of the 378 Wby....3,200 fps with a 270gr spire point, 3,200ft/lbs of energy remaining at 400 yards. I have a custom 378 with a blueprinted action, Pacnor barrel, McMillan Express stock, NECG sights, trigger worked and bedded by Charlie Sisk, that has shot under an inch at 300 yards. Recoil is not more than a 300Win...an incredible rifle!

I'm gonna sound like a self righteous ole jerk but be that as it may, here goes.
I really don't want to start a disagreement and I know I should just move on to another thread....but. Ya ever heard of "Newtons law of motion"? "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".???

A 270 grain .378 Weatherby at 3,200FPS and it doesn't kick any worse than a .300 Win??...Please!!!


I took this off a free recoil chart.
........................................ rifle weight.........recoil energy......recoil velocity.

.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960)......8.5.................25.9.................14.0.


378 Wby. Mag. (300 at 2900).......10.25...............71.1.................n/a.

I know it's not a 270 grain it's a 300 but then it's 2.900FPS and not 3,2000 either and it's almost 2 lbs heavier of a rifle than the .300.
Recoil's the same, really?

I shoot a .300 Win with 190 grain Hornady Interlocks at approx 3,000FPS, have been for years. I been hunting elk since I was 12 and I'm 61. I hate these kinda topics cause every time I read one I know elk are gonna get shot in the butt. We find what's left of em up in the mountains every spring after the coyotes are done with em.
I help out each year at our local range when we have our 2 public sight in days to raise money for the club. Course I probably don't see the guys with the serious boomers that can shoot well with em at public sight ins cause they'd be practiceing a lot alone I reckon. I know there are some of em to be sure...but, the guys I do see with em are for the most part seriously lacking in ability to put it mildly. Amazing rounds ballisticlly but "Mothers to master" and I don't care who made em.
Whatever happened to hunting skills? If a guy has em, why on earth does he need a 270 grain bullet at 3,200FPS which'll carry 95 percent of it's deliverable energy with it when it exits the far side of an elk at 300 yards anyway. 300 yards by the way, whether anyone agrees with me or not is a long shot on an elk.

There, that's my 2 cents so go ahead and flame my ass but at least I got to get in in here and some a you "shooters" know I'm right.
I do apologize also to those of you that have one a these big "BANGERS" and actually have practiced with em enough to really use em, I'm sure you already know who you are. To you I meant no offense.
There ya go, now fire away. Maybe I am a just a self righteous ole jerk (been called worse) but I dang sure love elk huntin enough to have an opinion on this topic.

No criticism here, I think you're exactly right. (I shoot a 308 too btw, 2 for 4 over the last 4 seasons!) Good news is I think that alot of people on these boards never get out of their captain's chairs into the country where 500+ yd shots live, just read ballistic charts and fantasize what it might be like.

I also agree that 300 yds is a long shot under hunting conditions - almost dark, cold, little breeze/wind, animals turning, looking, stepping, pulse rate up a little, etc.

It's one thing to be on the bench where the one you just pulled doesn't matter, rack another one and try it again, then talk about ringing the gong at 300, 400 or whatever.

Try it this way, 20 minutes before dark cover a half mile in the timber or brush as quick as you can to get in position, get set up in the snow and sagebrush in your shooting position without making any noise or being seen, and then put the very first round from your cold barrel into that 8-10 inch circle at 300, 400, 500 yds. If you're not practicing that way, you you're not really ready for those kinds of shots.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
It's always apparent when someone asks about trajectory of a particular bullet at X distance instead of it's BC and ability to buck the wind that they do not understand long range hunting/shooting

Example the 338 cal 300 grain SMK with its .768 BC will have almost 1/2 the wind drift at 1000 as will the 250 grain SMK at 400 FPS faster starting velocity. Yes the 250 will shoot flatter, but trajectory compisation is a know quantity and is easily compensated for.

Wind is always the toughest

Exactly.

Again my long range experience is on the range, but the difficulty of making the shot is similar. Most people cannot understand (or believe) that we go up in bullet weight when we go from 300 yards to 600 yards. It is all about the wind. That is why I was curious as to limiting factors in the field on live game.

One other comment about larger (higher BC) bullets. I did not check a ballistics program but I would be willing to bet the 300 Grain bullet has more energy downrange than the 250 grain bullets. After all it is a living animal on the receiving end of the bullets. BTW if I am wrong about the energy surely a chastising will be coming my way.

And Cobrad, thanks for the response.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Does a .338 or whatever kick more if the target is 500 yds vs 50 yds?
If you're scared of your gun's recoil, or better yet, if recoil even enters your mind while you are hunting, something is bad wrong and you shouldn't be hunting at all, at any range with said gun.

Nooo, but if you flinch by 2 moa you'd probably hit the vitals at 50 but be in the dirt at 500.

Recoil may not enter someone's mind but subconsoisly your body may not easily forget the punshment. Some are less perfect than your ideal, so they gravitate to moderate recoiling rifles. Folks new to shooting long ranges, or shooitn frequently should start light and work up.

I agree with lucky guy's suggestions on field shooting. We do a lot of "stump shooting". Quickly range a very small rock (no flames necessary) or clump of grass on an open hill side, assume a field position and take the shot. Only first shots count. We really put this to the test when we start hunting marmots in August. I am also in complete agreement with jwp regarding BC. For those who have not shot at ranges from 300 yards out, give it a try. You will be surprised how easy it is to extend your range with the use of a few tools like laser rangefinder, ballistics charts and an inexpensive anemometer.

quote:

One other comment about larger (higher BC) bullets. I did not check a ballistics program but I would be willing to bet the 300 Grain bullet has more energy downrange than the 250 grain bullets. After all it is a living animal on the receiving end of the bullets.

The heavier bullets hit with a lot more authority than do the ligher ones at distace.

The 300 SMK will start out about 400 FPS slower than the 250 grain but will have more remaining velocity at 1,000 yards as well as more momentum and energy

That quote about opinions and body parts that everyone has would certainly fit this thread. Elephant rifles to .243 with 1,000 yard match shooting compared to hunting.

I've used the same 7mm Rem Mag for over 30 years so I'm sure I fit the middle aged tag and don't think you need to spend $2,000 to fill the freezer.

But since we do hunt public land in CO for elk that often require cross canyon shots of over 200 yards I understand the question. If you hunt where a mistake that doesn't quickly anchor the elk means an unrecovered animal - sometimes because the rancher won't allow any access.

I think my 7mm is marginal for that purpose - it kills elk, even running ones, but rarely drops them in their tracks. It does however put bullets right where I aim them, and 300 yards is not too far to perform consistently in killing large bulls. Much farther than that it becomes a less than 100% proposition.

I'm thinking of going to a 340 Weatherby or 338 Rum for elk next year, not because I can't kill them with the 7 but because it means a lot more knockdown power at the normal ranges of 150-300 yards and a little extra range without too much worry about recovery. I need an excuse to buy a new rifle anyway.

The fast 300's, 8mm's and 338's firing something over 180 grains over 3,000 FPS would be about perfect for the question asked about long range elk calibers. Personal preference and economics can dictate specifics of caliber, make, model, bullet and which good optics to put on it (I'd suggest a variable that had a low end for stalking and at least 7-9x or better on the high end).

Like most everyone else has indicated the more you practice with that rifle and also just shooting other game the better chance you have of hitting where you aim. In my opinion you are better off shooting 500 rounds at varmints to get ready than 5,000 off of a bench.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
It's always apparent when someone asks about trajectory of a particular bullet at X distance instead of it's BC and ability to buck the wind that they do not understand long range hunting/shooting

Example the 338 cal 300 grain SMK with its .768 BC will have almost 1/2 the wind drift at 1000 as will the 250 grain SMK at 400 FPS faster starting velocity. Yes the 250 will shoot flatter, but trajectory compisation is a know quantity and is easily compensated for.

Wind is always the toughest

Yup.

Rangefinder, ballistic reticle and shooting cover trajectory.

LOTS of shooting covers wind!

For real long range shooting my personal faves are the 300Win (Lapua brass) and the 338Edge (Nosler brass). I prefer the 338 Edge because it fits nicely into my Remingtons and still has at least as much power (velocity)as the 338Lapua.

Most of the actions suitable for the Lapua and other large bolt face magnums tend to be a bit on the heavy side and I would rather put the extra weight into the barrel.

I have also played around with a custom built 375 Ultra at out to 600 yards (yes it has a brake!)enough to know a moose is in big trouble if I have time to get set up. Call me crazy, but I outfitted it with a 2.5-10 baby Nightforce!

Happy New Year gents!

quote:

Originally posted by x-man:
For real long range shooting my personal faves are the 300Win (Lapua brass) and the 338Edge (Nosler brass). I prefer the 338 Edge because it fits nicely into my Remingtons and still has at least as much power (velocity)as the 338Lapua.

Most of the actions suitable for the Lapua and other large bolt face magnums tend to be a bit on the heavy side and I would rather put the extra weight into the barrel.

I have also played around with a custom built 375 Ultra at out to 600 yards (yes it has a brake!)enough to know a moose is in big trouble if I have time to get set up. Call me crazy, but I outfitted it with a 2.5-10 baby Nightforce!

Happy New Year gents!

The 338 Edge is an excellent chambering, but the 338 Lapua can and is made on the Rem-700 action mine is and Remington make a factroy M-700 chambered in 338 Lapua


The quality of the Lapua brand brass is the reason that I choose the Lapua chambering over the Edge

I own the 338 RUM and with a Burris scope on it
I could reach 600 to 1000yds shooting a 225gr or 200gr bullet. I would have to set it up for long range hunting. Right now it is only set up for 200yds.