The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Felix, I assure you I don't know what's going on beside onceabull (aka onceabull, idabulle, Bill, et al, ad naus.) is trying to cause trouble over here on Accurate. You can go back and read all his post and all of them are personal attack. Since I quit replying he applied his senile child behavior of swheeler. By the way Idabull, all that you probably reload now are your Depends. Funny how my beef was with some moderators and the site administrator and not you, but yet you still carry on like I personally hurt you. You're a bitter OLD man Bill, with not much of a life then to spend time going back through years of posts on those you wish to spread your BS about. You waste your time doing that went you could contribute, but then again you know diddly squat to post technical help. 45 2.1 mentions your meds, Alzheimer’s old man???? So in closing Felix I just meant that if Larry had this thread going on Castboolits many would have tired of it much earlier and closed it down and locked it out. I stay in constant contact with Jump via phone and email and the poor fellow has been hit by that worse ice storm in KY's history and is now at his sisters with his children. He as been without power for many days at his home. Good to see you here Felix, was quite shocked to see you actually. Joe | |||
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Psssst! Hey Joe, how about you and I put on one our old shows to let the amateurs see how it's REALLY done? Seeesh! | |||
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Bret don't fall for the BS that onceabull (aka idabull, onceabull, bill, et na naus) is spreading here as I explained the real nature of that post on Larry's threshold. Had nothing to do with what's going on over at Castboolits. I can understand how you and Al aren't real happy about what has transpired, but believe me I'm not starting anything. Only trying to defend myself from that OLD man's remarks, lies, and personal attacks. Understand? Hey we did have some good shows, you're right there. | |||
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Starmetal(aka MaxPayne, joe, et al ,ad naus.) Maybeso you can round up someone from your vast assortment of keyboard "friends"to come post how they really,really,believe you about the laughing guy at Sierra Ballistics (or any other of your laughling guy stories) A renowned match shooter like 45 2.1 would be like icing..  Idabull | |||
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Idabull (onceabull, idabull, bill, et na naus) if you believed that you are dumber then I previously though.  | |||
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Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,joe,et al,ad naus.) What should we call a thing that would lie,or invent a laughing guy,in attempting to prevail in an internet discussion.. I know what they are called here,how about where you are..??  Idabull | |||
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idabull (aka onceabull, idabull, bill, OLD MAN, aka, et na naus). Such a same that an OLD man like you takes the internet seriously. Get in your wheelchair and take your wife to bingo instead of wasting your time here because that's exactly what you do, waste it. Not much may years left to waste huh OLD man? | |||
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From onceabull's (aka idabull here) post on Castboolits: onceabull Boolit Master onceabull's Avatar Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 705 ? Well,one thing is for sure,one-hole Joe Starmetal and his water carrier are having good sport with this on the Arab's board..Onceabull __________________ "The Eagle is no flycatcher" Idabull (aka onceabull, idabull, bill, OLD man, etc., na naus) why don't you tell Saeed what you really think about him? I thought this was the Accurate Reloading forum, not "THE ARAB'S FORUM".  | |||
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Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,Joe,et al ,ad naus.)I'm doubting Saeed has a problem being called what he is..,Or did you think he was French?? Still wondering whether he and your good buddy Don,have heard what you think of muslims.??? Idabull | |||
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Nice try buffalo dung....you used it in a derogatory fashion and you know it OLD man. | |||
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Starmetal(aka Maxayne,joe, et al, ad naus.) Now you are a mind reader ,too, in addition to your role as the one true guru of all things "tech."??? NOT now ,NOT ever..  Idabull | |||
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You are off the wall Bill. What is your problem? I don't claim to be anything. Just here having a half decent argument with Larry on rpm and your sole purpose in life is causing trouble here and over on Castboolits. I, again, had nothing to do with Elmer Keith or Brets post of Line In The Sand. If he and Al want to bury the hatchet that's fine by me. I'm not upset about what happen. Got over that a long time ago. If someone involved is still upset, then I'd have to say they have a mental problem of sorts. Kinda like you now that I think about it. Gee, what a wonderful life you have OLD man. Tell me this. What is it that I done to you personally to anger you????? | |||
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Idabull; I feel very sorry for you, God Bless. Scot PS; you had better watch your P's and Q's on CB, there's a new sheriff in town and ol Elmer might just bitch slap you off for good.  | |||
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Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,joe,et al) Some might read your post of 02:59(board time),2/03/09,as an acknowledgement that your use of the laughing guy at Sierra Ballistics to support the discovery that your bullets twist faster once they leave the barrel was a stone lie.If that's correct,and you are up to it, I'll post that acknowdegement on Cast boolits..Since I was the only one to challenge his existence then,there might still be some "confused" readers there..Shall I do the same with your earlier laughing guy stories,or do you want to handle those on a case by cases basis??? Got what it takes to clear this up ?? Idabull | |||
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Ida; take your meds, wipe the dribble from your chin, and go to bed. God bless. Scot | |||
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So you mean to tell me that is what got you off your rocker? You're a sicko OLD man. Oh yeah, go ahead and post what you want over there. They just LOVE you over there..bwahahahahahahahaha...and..they love hearing stuff about Starmetal. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by starmetal: Starmetal Joe I'm trying to carry on a decent argument with you here. If anyone else wants to put forth some actual information and facts regarding the RPM threshold it would be appreciated. The personal attacks from all sides is getting rediculous and distracting. I'm bowing out of this argument if we can can't get back to arguing about the RPM threshold instead of bicckering. Larry Gibson | |||
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Wrong again my friend. The 6.5 Grendel was developed from a 6mmPPC. Then the design was given to Lapua. They tweaked it some by pushing the shoulder out further increasing the powder space. The Grendel case is not as tapered as the 7.62x39 and hold more powder. Now there is reloading data from both Alexander Arms (the manufacturer of the Grendel), another on the 6.5 Grendel forum, and also Accurate powder has data. Now the forum data doesn't list a 140 jacketed load (and the main reason for this is that the 140 protrudes into the powder space too much and as you know you can't load it out further in an AR15) but AA does list it. First the forum data: It lists up to a 130 grain bullet and out of a 16 inch barrel it's 2300 fps. On AA's data 2220 fps for a 140 grain jacketed out of a 24 inch barrel. So you and I both know you can push a cast bullet faster then it's comparable weight jacket bullet. You know about the 7.62x39, but are way out of your league on the 6.5 Grendel. It's a very efficient round and shoot way out of it's proportion and I might add very damn accurate out of the AR15 to very far ranges. Some of the better shooters then myself on the Grendel forum are shooting groups with it at 300 yards that most shooters can get at 100 yards. Also if you look at larger 6.5 cases such as the 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenaur, the Grendel beats them in velocity. So my friend you are wrong. Your answer on the 300 yard is your typical cop out also. Franky I don't give a damn what you think because I know what I do, I have fun doing and after I've done the homework my loads perform for me what I ask of them. Fact is you can't push any 6.5 caliber with a fast twist to those velocities with accuracy and you run down EVERYONE that can. End of discussion. Larry I edited this to add this photo of a 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 (with cast bullets) to show you the difference.  | |||
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Starmetal And just what case was the 6mm PPC developed from? The 22 PPC which was developed from the 7.62x39. Everyone but you looking at your picture will think; "not much difference in case capacity there!” And they will be right. Now do you really think I’d call your bluff without researching or knowing the answer first? Sorry Bub, but the best of 6.5 Grendel 20” barrels only pushes 2400 fps with 120 gr bullets. Now you want us to believe your magic AR with 20” barrel gets that+ with 140 gr bullets. I guess that makes sense because you want us to believe all of your 1 shot accuracy claims. Go research the 6.5 Grendel forum. It appears I’m not the only one who doesn’t know anything about the 6.5 Grendel but at least I was smart enough to research it before making stupid claims like “It's a very efficient round and shoot way out of it's proportion”. Are you really asking us to believe that? It’s case capacity is what it is and that’s all it is. It won’t shoot “out of proportion” to any other 6.5 of equal case capcity. You believe in too much BS, old wives tales and witch craft. Please tell us what your loads did out of your rifle via chronographing them. Extrapolation from other "sources" using jacketed bullets doesn't cut it obviously. Larry Gibson | |||
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The only think the PPC cases have in common to the 220 Russian is the head diameter. Internally they differ. If you can't see the difference in the two cases posted you're blind. The Grendel holds more powder then the 7.62x39. Shooting the load over the chronograph wouldn't prove a thing to you. You're such an asshole about this that you'd say I shot it with the 260 I have and post a picture of the Chrono screen. Like TV Larry, you believe those whiz bang cleaners that they show how good they works before your eyes through a camera? No sir I'm not wasting my time and components (which by the way are very hard to get now) just to prove a point to your sorry ass. I love my Grendel for cast and it shoot as I say. Now go away. | |||
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Larry, For the benefit of information to you I took a Grendel a case and 7.63x39 case (by the way that 7.62 case is a PMC which I know has a larger capacity then my Winchester..so that's plus to your side) filled them to the base of the necks with a very fine walnut media. I felt that's more representative of what the real boiler room holds rather then fill to the case mouth (which as you know larger on the 7.62). The 7.62 held 17.5 and the Grendel held 20.5. Mind you now that actually powder weighs more. Keep in mind that my Grendel load for cast is with H4198 powder, which you know is faster then 4895. Still think I can't hit that velocity Larry? | |||
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Starmetal Let this "asshole" point out the facts. Let's take a look at what the .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor both do in 20" ARs. Both of those two cartridges have over twice the case capacity of your 6.5 Grendel (48.5 & 51.5 gr Water). Both of them do push a 140 gr J bullet out of a 20" barreled AR at 2400+ fps. Now the .260 Rem just happens to be in Lyman's manual loaded with a 140 gr bullet using IMR4198. With 28 gr they show 2326 fps at 45,900 psi out of a 24" barrel. Let's be fair and just subtract 25 fps per inch for the shorter 20" barrel. That gives the larger case using the same powder with a 140 gr cast bullet 2236 fps. Now you are going to tell us that you get 2400+ fps out of a case with half the case capacity using the same powder and the same weight cast bullet? HELL NO I DON'T BELIEVE IT AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE!!!!! Stop with the bullshit and go chronograph your loads. You are only guessing and guessing badly at that. Come back to us with the actual velocity. You aren't "hitting that velocity" with a cast 140 gr bullet out of your Grendel, or at least not to long before it comes unglued! "I'm not wasting my time and components (which by the way are very hard to get now) just to prove a point to your sorry ass." Like a 5 shot test string over the chronograph wastes a lot of componants? Like your own cast bullets are hard to get? Give us a break. Truth is you are just too chicken to do it because you already know the answer. This whole 6.5 Grendel crap of yours is just another one of your cockamaimy bullshit stories. Larry Gibson | |||
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Simple Larry, your analogy is wrong. Take 28 grs of 4198 and put it in a case like the 260, then put it in a case that it fills completely. Which one will give the higher velocity? We're not talking pressure here. No one is believing you!!! Well truth be known I got caught off guard with components. I'm out of just about every powder except 860 surplus and very very short on large rifle primers. I haven't been shooting on the nice days because of this. Widerner, which is 25 miles from me is so swamped with internet orders they closed their doors to the TN residents three months ago and still are 10 days behind. Besides they are out of LR primers as is Grafs & Midway. There aren't any other places near me to buy them at a reasonable price. I'm not paying $30 a thousand. I'll quit shooting and go to high dollar air rifles. So that part is no lie. Check Wideners Attention Post on their website about orders. www.wideners.com | |||
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Here's something else to look at. On Hodgdon's data website a 140 gr Nosler on the beginning load of H4895 the velocity is 2367 fps and that's at the Grendels pressure range (why I selected it). The Grendel shooting a 140 gr bullet with 26.4 grs of H4895 with a velocity of 2240 fps, only 127 feet short of the 260. Which would you deem more efficient? Efficiency is the reason for the PPC case. You do know that the PPC uses a small rifle primer too don't you? | |||
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I didn't even know Larry owned a 6.5 Grendel.  But that wouldn't surprise me a bit, him giving advice on something he has no first hand knowledge of has never stopped him before He has a vivid imagination. | |||
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No dog in THIS fight but just a question. Are you using 28 grs of H4198 in your 6.5 Grendel?? | |||
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Now you've switched to H4895. Pat raises a good question; just which powder and how much are you using to get 2400+ fps from a 140 gr cast bullet out of your 20" barreled 6.5 Grenel AR? Also; are you using the starting load for the 260 Reminton to extrapolated what the velocity is for the 6.5 Grendel? BTW; Read the fine print on Hodgdon's web site (where you are apparently extrapolating your velocity from). The data is collected with the use of 26" pressure test barrels. So you might want to subtract 25 fps for each of those extra 6" from your extrapolated 2240 fps which looks an aweful lot like 2090 fps to me. Then we all know that minimum spec pressure barrels always give higher velocities tha production barrels. Then all this is for a J bullet not a cast bullet. So what is the real velocity of your loads? Why don't you chronograph 5 rounds (ok, just 3 rounds) and tell us. Want to bet it's no where near 2400+ fps as you claim? Larry Gibson | |||
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Only reason I ask is because I have a cast bullet 6.5 PPC bench gun. I know guys have run 25 or 26 grs of 4198 in the 6 PPC using jacketed bullets but they're usually in the 70 gr class. I also know they're running 33 or 4 of 4198 in the 30 BR but that's with 118 gr bullets. Maybe I read what you wrote wrong but I'd think 28 grs of 4198 in a 6.5 Grendel would take an AR apart pretty quick shooting a 140 gr bullet, don't know for sure though. I'm using 24.5 grs of 4350 in my PPC with a 170 gr bullet for 1750. The barrel's throated so only the gas check and a bit is in the neck when seated in the barrel so case capacity should be around the same as a 140 gr bullet in the Grendel. | |||
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Larry I think if you go back a page and read what I told you my velocity was I said 2347 fps. Where did we get 2400+? I used the 4895 powder for an analogy of how efficient the PPC cases can be. Pat I, no I'm not using 28 grs of H4198. The Saeco 140 grain bullet is about 2/3's bore rider. The two bearing bands separated by a single lube groove aren't substantial. Thus the bullet offers no ways the resistance that a jacketed 140 grain bullet would, although that resistance as we know isn't solely accounted for how fast you can push a bullet. AR15's have a real good reputation for not "coming" apart. Usually they break the bolt lugs and dump the gas down the magazine well. Nine out of ten times an AR15 bolt that breaks, breaks the lugs on each side of the extractor as previously they were undercut to provide room for the extractor. There have been changes in that procedure now. Also new steel alloys have been developed for the AR15 bolt and simply put, are amazingly strong. The 6.8 Rem in the AR is also prone to this lug breaking problem, but I have a friend that builts AR's (also makes bolts, fit barrels, etc. to AR's) and he has what we call the "super bolt" in one of his 6.8 and 6.5 AR's. I'd have to dig up his data but you're not going to believe the velocities he's getting. He's bonafide too as he works with some big companies supplying them with barrel and bolt knowledge for AR15 shooting the rounds mentioned especially the 6.8. His one 6.8 barrel is rifled with three grooves. | |||
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Starmetal Maybe I got it from this statement of yours quite a few posts back; "Again off the top of my head the 6.5 velocity is somewhere around 2100 to 2400 fps out a 20 inch barrel and that has a 1 in 8 twist, so you can figure the R's for it." Not sure though, could have been another post as I didn't go back and research it to much. Ok, it's 2347 fps. So show us with 5 or 3 shots actually chronographed. Now don't come back and say that's what it was because you've alread explained how you've been extrapolating it from bublished data. Just chronograph 3 shots of it, eh? Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, Get to it ASAP as can with this:  I'm not real keen divulging the powder load weight as I have a special bolt. That friend I spoke of is shooting loads that definitely would break a normal bolt. Even Alexander Arms, home of the Grendel has changed alloys. Oh, that blur to the left of that fence post on the right is my portable shooting bench. | |||
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Okay Larry, you win, I shot the three shots you requested. I'm going to give the load, but I'm not responsible if someone uses this data with a 140 gr (or heavier) jacketed, or any cast bullet that would cause higher pressure. Pat i and Larry I really did do this for Larry. First picture is of my scale with the charge showing on the bar, that's 25 grains of H4198.  Next is Chrono showing 1-3 meaning I shot three shots:  Next is the high shot, which by the way is 2400+:  Next is the Low:  Next the Average:  Okay Larry don't give me any crap about I don't have an Oehler chronograph, and next you butthole I want an apology. The rifle will do more then 2400+ but I'm not willing to push it. Besides 2390 fps equals 2390x720/8 twist which is 215100 rpm..WELL out of your fictional threshold. What freaking excuses you going to come up with now asshole? See Larry, you DON'T know about PPC cases and you DON'T own a 6.5 Grendel. Pati, First that myth 28 grains was a number I chose to do analogy of placing 28 grains of an unknown powder in a case in which it fills it to the neck bas and the same 28 grains of unknown powder in a larger case that it only fills say 1/2 or 2/3 way, and place the same weight and brand bullet in each (by the way the cases are the same bullet caliber) and shooting them and asking Larry which would give the higher velocity and pressure. See Pat, you haven't figured out how Larry takes posted statements and twists them way out of proportion to the context. Just like he swears I said I shot 2400 + fps when in fact I said 2347 fps. See if you can find that post Larry. My argument isn't with you Pat. About your 6mm one BIG difference is that you're shooting it from a bolt rifle which is much stronger. Grendel is working on some bolt action rifles at the moment and some of the guys already have personally built their own. Waiting for your excuses and apology Larry. Joe | |||
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By the way, here's a pic of my AR's bolt. Either of you two see any broken lugs from supposedly loads of H4198 couldn't shoot a 140 gr bullet. I removed the extractor for better view of the two weak lugs:  | |||
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That 6.5 grendel is one efficient little cartridge. 215,000 rpm's with a cast boolit and accurate, Larry's imaginary theory blown clean out of the water  love it. Personally I wouldn't waste my time doing anything for our resident rpm blow hard, for anyone else here sure, but for that Larry asshole-nada! He must be adding some new exceptions to his imaginary theory about now, give him a bit, kinda slow on the spin you know Joe. I think the most important bit we all can take from this is Larry is  | |||
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Joe; no reply from Larry because he's out to supper, he's having CROW, sure hope he doesn't choke on the beak!  | |||
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Where's SPIN???????  | |||
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Starmetal I got your message late last night when I got home. Contrary to dumb as remarks, as usual, by you know who I do not sit in front of my compuror anxiously awaiting some post from he or you to respond to. Very good, was it all that hard to cronograph it for real? Yup it's doing what you say so to make you happy I appologise for doubting you. Although it seems that all that converstation should not have been necessary to get you to do something as simple as you did. BTW; I was out to supper but it was not crow I was eating, it was a 12oz very good prime rib dinner with a couple galsses of good merlot. Now that the argument is over (temporarily anyway) and we see what the Grendel is really doing lets get on with the discussion. Contrary to what is stated this does not blow the RPM threshold out of the water, it only denonstrates that it can be pushed. How many times have I told you guys that and yet you still don't understand. Well you can't even tell us the definition of the RPM threshold so how can you say it's been blown out of the water? You can't. Now that load obviously is very hot so I will go along with Joe and admonish anyone with a Grendel out there to be very careful if working up to it. Another question; is that the load you shot the 300 yard group with? If so, Joe, let me ask you to complete the test so we can have a really good idea on how well your load does above the RPM threshold. Could you shoot 5 fove shot groups for us at 200 yards? Since your range is 200 yards that's far enough as we really don't want you wallering around in the snow shooting over the seat of your sowmobile/whatever you said it was. Since you are really short of componants we can wait for you to get them. If you are really strapped you can just shoot 3 five shot groups or one 10 shot group. That way we can get a much better idea of how well you are pushing the RPM threshold. Should be interesting as that is about the best I've seen doen with a 6.5 with fast twist, especially with the longer bullet. The best I done over 2,000 fps in the 6.5 Swede is with the shorter Lovern 266455. I've pushed it to 2,090 fps (200,600 RPM) and held good accuracyat 100 yards. I've mentioned all this before in my discussions, particularly with 45 2.1, but no one seems to notice or pay any attention. I'm interested in how your longer bullet at that RPM holds up against the Lovern. See, we can push the RPM threshold just as I've always tried to tell you. Now that you've proved it to your self let's continue the tests and the fun. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, I knew you wouldn't disappoint me. More test to satisfy you. To shoot those chrono loads...no not too hard. You see here they tend to build homes, with basements, and instead of a mandoor in the basement they put both a single garage door and mandoor. So I lieve in the mtns and I can literally shoot out of the window (wife would kill me) so my shop is in the first part of the basement, then a wall, then the second portion from which I shot. Stuck the chrono outside the door and fired from just inside the door. I do wish I had a strain gauge to see what loads are doing not just out of the Grendel, but all my firearms, but I would say those loads you saw there were...hmmmm...how do I say....let's just say not reduced loads. Nor where they maximum. Course visual inspection can be deceiving, but the primers looked ok and there wasn't case head swell. Mind you, Lapua brass is pretty stout and more then often doesn't show signs that other brands do early on. I can shoot to 300 yards. Actually if nobody was in the other landowners field next to mine I could shoot very far. Here's a picture of part of my field and that looming mtn you see in the background is what we call Buffalo Mtn and it's the Unicoi County's Bear Reserve. It's were they take the bad boy bears from Smokie Mtn Park too. Don't know about any soon test as it's single digits and I don't feel like going out in it. Also I'm not quite sure how my lube is in those conditions. You know how Bassackwards was very persistent about how one's lubes work in cold weather.  | |||
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Larry, You do know why the Swede is so tough for novice cast shooters don't you? I'll give you a clue, it's not the twist. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussion
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