The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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By the way Larry the Lapua brass is very expensive so for many of my loads I use formed cases made from PMC 7.62x39 and the loads for those are different because the cases are as strong as the Lapau and they are also large rifle primer. This is mainly with full hilt jacketed loads though. For cast loads they are great. Oh your apology is accepted. | |||
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Starmetal Thank you, I'm still waiting for your apology. I am a "testy" sort of guy (pun intended). Adequate tests tell us if our loads are actually acceptable and doing what we really want them to do. They also provide pertinant information that may lead to improvement. Relying on one group does not do that, especially those only shot at close range. Your group is a very good one and at 300 yards to boot. The question is; is it repeatable? Only additional test will confirm that it is or it isn't. You don't have to run additional tests but the one group still is not confirmed. Aditional groups would add icing on the cake so to speak. Instead of asking me if I know what you know why don't you just stick your neck out and tell us "why the Swede is so tough for novice cast shooters"? I'm tired of answering your questions only to have you complain about them, misinterpret them and cast criticisism on my answers before we even know what your answer is. So this time you "knock, knock" but I'm asking "who's there" so give us your answer first? BTW; I do know the answer. Larry Gibson | |||
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I've had a few of my rifle with cast shot from that 300 mark. My CZ550 30-06, My Finn 39, and my Yugo SKS. That damn SKS really surprised me. No I'm not going to tell you it shot very small groups because it didn't, BUT let's say I had a very very good chance of hitting you in the head with it at that distance. It shot about a 4 inch group. When I shot that one group with the 6.5 Grendel my mouth dropped open more then your's did reading it. I was shocked. Boy I'd love to know the BC on that Saeco 140 gr cast bullet. You better believe I'll be back there at the 300 yard line again. Like I said some of my friend who shoot strictly jacketed from their Grendels that make groups at 300 yards that make me ashamed of my 100 yard groups. Don't now if you know LaRue who is in the gun business, AR15 I believe, well this past season he took an Elk at 405 yards with his 6.5 Grendel. Measured distance, one shot, took a few steps, fell dead. | |||
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Hell, Starmetal, box that Grendel up along with some of your loads and ship it to me. I'll not only slap a strain gauge on it and tell you the pressure but I'll tell you the real BC as well. Oh yeah, I'll send it back too  Or...you could take a road trip and bring it (and a few other of your rifles out like that Yugos 4 incher at 300 yards) and we'll shoot 'em together. See....now don't you want to apolize for your past transgressions knowing what a nice guy I really am? Pat is right, I am a John Wayne sort of stand up guy  Larry Gibson | |||
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Joe FWIW I really don't think he knows the answer  but after he reads a few posts he will.  But I'm not CS so I'll stab or bite, whatevere you want to call it. The 7.8" inch twist probably doesn't hinder the novice in the least, but the long, large ID throat and long barrel do hurt. The throat on my 96 will scrape a .272 bullet but take a .270 sized one, this is why tell you soft bullets will shoot better than hard in thedir swedes, they've got undersized bullets to star with and .266 sizer. I shoot a bullet that is over 1.25 inches long cast of ww with lube only in bottom two grooves to 1500+ w accurate. Shoot same bullet cast of a realitively soft alloy but heat treated hard to about 1900fps with slow powder, all grooves lubed and LLA tumbled nose. OK I can hardly wait for Larry's you got it all wrong reply. | |||
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The time I shot the Yugo at 300 yards I DID drag the bench back. Don't forget I did a lot of work on that rife like took the grenade launcher off the muzzle, recrowned it, took the bayonet off and the lug off the front sight that held the bayonet, glass bedded the action, and worked the trigger over. Then played with a lot of surplus 4895 powder getting a load. Oh yeah I scoped it too with a dedicated mount. So if you remember it shot some impressive 100 yard groups that Bret still doubts. Like I said I was shocked how well it did at 300 yards. They don't shoot noways like that with military jacketed. I imagine you could find a decent commercial jacketed bullet to shoot, dunno. Don't buy, don't shoot em. | |||
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swheeler You've finally made some sort of contribution to the discussion, we thank you. Can't argue with your answer at all. Part of the key to success is that the bullet must fit the long throat of the Swede. I've not encountered a Swede with a throat that large but have heard they are out there. Mine are actually .2665-.267" so I do quite well with the bullets at .266" as they are a snug fit. I also find best accuracy with a BHN of 16-18 in the Swede. I also get best accuracy in the 1450-1525 fps range but manage very good accuracy (as previously mentioned) at a little over 2,000 fps. In case you didn't notice your accuracy load at 1500+ fps is just at the top end of the RPM threshold where it should be. It's also good that you are able to push the threshold with proper loading techniques to 1900 fps. Unfortunately you ruined what would have been a good post with your continual personal BS. That is a shame because you started out well but then shit in your own boots again. Larry Gibson. | |||
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Starmetal Yup, I do remember all the things you said you done to make your Yugo shoot like that. That's why I'd like to see it and shoot it! Are you going to answer your 6.5 question or has swheeler ruined a further discussion of that? Larry Gibson | |||
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I don't own a Swede, nor have I shot one, so I might be off base with this. I would think that a longer barrel would be helpful for working up a HV load. The added length would allow for better use of a slower than standard powder. This would shift the peak pressure curve farther out so that the boolit is well into the bbl before it gets slammed real hard. Even with good boolit fit (harder to do with shitty throat dimensions) this would be beneficial. | |||
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Ba; what I meant by long barrel was with bullet seated to touch rifling I only have the GC and i lube groove in the neck, and leave exposed grooves unlubed, it will start to lead when pushed. Now when I go slow powder and faster I lube them all but in your pocket they get ful of dirt, the rifle is capable of pushing that cast bullet to 2400 but I haven't been able to make it hit the target at that speed, yet. The long barrel has a grerat advantage for using the open sights, especially for someone like me the added radius is a plus. Larry I,m just yanking your chain-just like you do to me and others, if you can't take it don't dish it out old man! Joe asked you to answer a question and you refused, helkl you ask him to go out shoot test rounds and report back to you, he did it, I wouldn't of! JOHN WAYNE MY ARS< MORE LIKE MICHAEL MOORE!!! | |||
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I can not answer the 6.5 Swede question because the answer given to me, along with other information to make it shoot came from 45 2.1. I don't know "everything" although some like to say that I do. If you know 45 2.1 the right way, that is, as a friend, he's a swell guy and loves to help you with a problem. Rub him the wrong way, which many on castboolits have done, he can be your worse enemy. Unfortunately you made the life raft list, also another ambiguous thing I can not explain. | |||
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Starmetal I thought that last 6.5 question was one of those you know the answer to but were baiting me to make a mistake so you could take me to task on. You should have said you didn't know and wanted my honest input. 45 2.1's methods in loading for the 6.5 Swede are all good. I've been using most all of his methods for years with the Swede and other cast bullet loads in rifles. I also do a couple additional things that he does not. I no longer form my Swede cases out of milsurp '06 cases as the newer commercial cases come with necks just as thick as the formed cases these days. I also use the medium to slower burning powders where as he does not, at least the last time we had a civil conversation about it he didn't. Additionally I use very well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled out. Instead of a heavy bore rider I us a lighter 129 gr Lovern bullet that with the bottom of the CG seated at the bottom of the neck it just kisses the lands. It is a perfect fit in the case neck and throat. It is well supported by the case neck and throat to allow minimal obturation. The bullet has, going into the leade, as straight a shot as can be had for a cast bullet short of breech seating the bullet. There is no long bore riding nose to get out of alignment. BBore makes a good point about the longer barrels. You can use the faster burning powders to attain good burning efficiency with a lower accelleration rate. How much of a benifit that really is remains to be seen. My M96 is very accurate but still wears issue sights. My shorter barrel is a M98 SR Mauser with a new M38 (was in the wrapper and in the white when I got it) barrel that is now 22.5" long. That rifle is very accurate but wears a 2.5x10X scope. Thus a realistic attempt at comparing the accuracy nuance of the longer vs shorter barrel is almost impossible. Some here and on the CBF would attempt the comparison anyway but I will not. There is a very good reason for swheeler's statement of; "the rifle is capable of pushing that cast bullet to 2400 but I haven't been able to make it hit the target at that speed, yet." It is RPM. If he makes some changes he may at least hit the target but his best accuracy will still be down in the 1500 fps range. That is what the RPM threshold is about. If any of you detractors could define the RPM threshold you would understand it. If swheeler would bother to understand the RPM threshold instead of bitch about it all the time he may find he is "able to make it hit the target at that speed" with much less work and experimentation. He can go straight to the solution instead of perhaps stumbling over the solution, maybe. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well at least we're not super arguing. You know my 6.5 Grendel barrel twist is very very very close to that 6.5 Swede twist. There is a big difference in the bores, one being my barrel is button rifled. I don't feel rpm is the culprit, but will agree with you that it is for the novice cast shooter. It's just one more hurdle he must over come. When everything is right with the bullet it will shoot high rpm with accuracy. I agree with you too that it's much easier to shoot in the lower rpm ranges, that's why many cast shooters become stuck there. I've talked to some people on the phone that personally know 45 2.1 and have gotten together and done some shooting...real live, not virtual. Bob can really really shoot. He's for real. Bob has no reason to lie because it serves him no purpose and he's not like that. You don't remember he and I really use to get into it on the forum. At that time I really didn't like the guy, but I was open and the rest was history. We became friends and I asked him genuinely for help and he gave it to me and every time it solved my cast problems. So now I know more thanks to him. Larry you're like Terry Bradshaw. When he first signed on with the Steeler he was worse then a highschool quarterback. The guy had potential, it just wasn't developed yet. Then later on he became a pretty good quarterback. You are pretty smart. You are past novice cast shooting and entering advanced cast shooting, like I was. Bob helped push me over the edge into extreme cast shooting. If you'd listened or will listen, you'll get there. Hey Larry I use to think I was the best there was too, then I found out I'm not even close. Alot of these guys live and breather this 24/7. I too have faults and some are love to argue (like my dad I guess) and I like to be right, and I think I know it all. You can equate to this next statement. I thought I was a hotshot until I entered the military service with hundreds of other guys from all over the country and all different kinds of walks of life, then I found out where I really stood. Not on the top of the heap, but yet not the bottom. The military is a great experience for a person. | |||
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Thanks for the analysis, now I don't have to pay for a shrink. I don't agree with you at all though. I'm not an expert, I do not know everything and i am always willing to learn. However, I accept proven facts not opinions or ideas born of myth, witchcraft or old wives tales. I am constantly learning. I have even learned a couple things from you. 45 2.1 is another story all together. I do not consider him a "guru" at all. I may consider him a peer in some respects. However, he has not told me nor shown me anything I haven't known for a long time. If he would get off his "well I know and if you don't that's too bad" attitude and post some picures and data to support his claims then he might garner a little more respect. Right now most of what he says is like an excuse, it has the maximum effective range of ZERO. You seem to forget I first started shooting cast bullets in '62 and started casting my own in '67. In those 40 plus years I have many times "lived and breathed shooting 24/7". You seem to also forget my considerable shooting experience. I spent 42 years in the Army most of which was in combat units like airborne infantry, armored cavalry and Special Forces. I have probably held, disassembled/assembled, fixed shot and given marksmanship training on around the world than you or 45 2.1 have dreamed of. I've been to 2 wars and whole lot of shitholes in between. I have used machineguns, rifles, handguns, bayonets, handgrenades and the most effective weapon on the battlefield (the radio to call in the really nasty stuff) in combat. I have the medals to prove it. I've also fired all sorts of anti-tank and tank weapons (155 and 105s) along with several different anti-aircraft weapons including Redeye and Stingers. I was also an advanced firearms and street survival instructor for a state board on police standards and training for a number of years while servine as a LEO for 18 years. I trained the police officers in a tri-county area for numerous years. Then there is my hunting experience. which includes deer, bear, elk carabou, numerous other critters and a record class Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep (SCI 188 7/8ths). Then there is competative shooting over the years. I've won my share of smallbore rifle and pistol matches, I was a Claas A IPSC shooter and won my share of PPC and TRC police matches. I am a 2 time state champian with sniper rifle and assault rifle. I have a NRA HP Master classiffication in both NMC and long range earned with the M14 and have won a couple state HP champianships. I was on the "Governer's Top 20" team for several years. Now that I am 'retired" I still travel the country and give tactical and weapons training to Marines and Soldiers. So what has 45 2.1 or you for that matter done? So do I think I'm a "hot shot"? No I don't. Do I think I've walked the walk and can talk the talk? Yes, I do. Do I think I'm a very good shot? I know I am. Do I think I know everything? No I don't. Do I think I know quite a bit? Yes I do. So please, do both of us a favor (because every time you do this you only show your ass) don't lecture me with crap like; "You are past novice cast shooting and entering advanced cast shooting". I have been past "novice" ever since the first rounds went by me in '65. I've been in the advanced stage for many years conducting extensive tests in a scientific manner. I have studied ballistics for years. My tests are for the most part conprehensive and I report factual data. What is it that you and 45 2.1 do? Occasionally we can get some factual data from you but it is like pulling teeth. Getting anything factual from 45 2.1 other than some dumb ass statement like; "well if you don't know you can't do it like a few of us can." . You say he can shoot and is a stand up guy, that may be so but he hasn't demonstrated squat to most of us here nor on the CBF. Being one of the "old original posters on the Shooters forum" like he always claims isn't a qualification of anything. Hell, I was one of the "old guys" on the original Shooters Forum too. Does that make me an expert on anything? Hell no it doesn't. What makes me an "expert" (I prefer to call it "knowledgeable") on cast bullet shooting is I have conducted a lot of scientific tests (unlike shooting a 3 shot group "over the hood of the PU") to determine facts. I do not draw conclusion and call them proof from shooting just one group no matter how good it is. I have had chronographs for 38 years and have chronographed thousands of loads and done a comparative analysis on them to determine their worth. I now have the Oehler M43 Personal ballistics Lab so I can also measure pressure, BCs and numerous other things to get a more in depth understanding of ballistics and what is happening to the laods fired. So take your lecture and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine. BTW; this isn't an argument so can we get back to discussing cast bullet shooting? There is much to discuss, i.e. you still haven't commented on my GB loads in the 8x57 using Turk berdan primed cases, the GB 314291 loads in the M39 and you still owe me an apology. Larry Gibson | |||
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Hahahahaha...You thought you were going to get me. Sorry, I had my waders on.  I started casting in 59. | |||
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It's just peachy when Larry brags on hisself. He can do anything better than anybody he tries to belittle. | |||
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He thinks he's John Wayne, "well let me tell ya pilgrim" John wore a ten gallon hat, Larry would need a twenty gallon to fit that swelled head!  The Marion kinda fits though> | |||
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45 2.1 and swheeler I wondered if you two would say something stupid as usual, no disappointment  If you two can't lead, get the hell out of the way  Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, serious question here, what year were you born? | |||
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Worst day of the year 1947. Larry Gibson | |||
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Damn you are old! Just kidding but you've got a few on me. Scot | |||
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Swheeler Well Scot, I'm old enough to know better but still young enough to do 'er Larry Gibson | |||
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starmetal '59 eh? Well you should ahve a good handle on what the RPM threshold is then, why don't you tell us the definition  Larry Gibson | |||
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Holy shit, you came in on that Roswell UFO didn't you Larry??  | |||
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I'm 29 and holdin, that's holdin anything I can! Last BD the kids set a fire extinguisher beside the kitchen table when thet lit the candles. | |||
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Larry, Did you ever shoot arrows with high twist ratio vanes? I call them 6.5 Swede Fletching. You can only shoot them out of old slow bows. You try one of these new fancy compounds, even an old long bow, and the accuracy goes to hell. It puts the arrows out of the arrow rpm threshold.  | |||
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Larry, I forgot to mention to you when we were discussing the 6.5 Grendel, and Pat i can make note of this, that Quickload, which is usually a great program, works dangerously bad when trying to plot loads for the 6.5 Grendel. They have have tweated it now, don't know, but even the Alexander Arms, who makes the Grendels, said don't use Quickload for the 6.5 Grendel. It's a crazy round, but a good one. | |||
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Well Chubby Checkers had a twist threshold, Larry you black? | |||
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Starmetal Naw, they came after I did. Ever consider if they got from where ever to here they might know a little more than you  Larry Gibson | |||
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Hell Starmetal, you might be on to something there!!!! Not sure what it has to do with cast bullets though Larry Gibson | |||
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Aw hell, I'm getting old....cast arrow heads, not the chipped ones such as in flint or agate.  Lookit there Larry, too much rpm, my arrows is a disappearin..like Waksupi's tin bullets.  | |||
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Sorry, just poor white trash....I can "twist" pretty good though. I was raised in that era when men were men, cars were cars and women glad of both. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well duh. If that saucer was spinning TOO fast it would've ended up who knows where! Hey I'll bet thats why it crashed, it exceeded the rpm threshold  | |||
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Damn straight they were onto something more then me, that saucer they came in on had a mighty high spin rpm. That's even out of my threshold, if I had one. | |||
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Even my hard drive in my pc is one of those new fangles high spin jobs....cast aluminum housing too. | |||
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swheeler You must be learning! How did you know Larry Gibson | |||
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You mean that saucer had a 308 twist, no wonder it crashed in NM. | |||
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Starmetal Pay attention to swheeler....he's learning  Larry Gibson | |||
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Those the fellows there that made your hammer forged barrel Larry? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussion
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