The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Larry I thought I gave the velocity I wanted for those heavy cast bullets in the 06. It's nearly 2800 fps, not the 2400 or 2500 you mentioned, which I agree is obtainable. In fact remember when Oldfeller wanted me to push that heavy pointed loverin in the 8x57 Mauser and I did. The same bullet that Buckshot split his stock trying to shoot fast. As far as the 7mm-08 here's Oldfellers statement: "Damn Joe, if you'd takent that 6x24 scope off your varmint rifle and put it on your Sako you probably would have done it". Fact is larry the rifle is a Sako Mannlicher Carbine with a 18 1/2 inch barrel with a "mini" Burris 3x9 scope. The rifle, loaded, scoped, and with the sling barely makes seven pounds. Now that is hardly the rig to shoot high rpm, high velocity small cast groups with. If Sako made that caliber in a varminter and I had the 6x24 scope on it I'd be casting with one of Dan's free moulds. I'll wager you couldn't have done as well as I did with it. Please post where I said my HBAR was a one holer with jacketed and cast. I said the HBAR shot damn small groups with jacketed that I never shot cast out of it because I didn't (and still don't) have a suitable mould for it. I'd like to buy the mould that Bullshop has that he made those cast for me, but Mid South doesn't have it anymore. He said that is were he bought it from. Get your stories straight Larry. By the way somewhere else in this forum is a thread about how good really are the HBAR's and one fellow has one unaltered that is shooting better groups at 300 yards then I am at 100 yards, so they will shoot. Please quit giving me shit about what I do and what I don't know. I've forgotten more about shooting, guns, and reloading then you'll ever know. I've done stuff with guns that you could never imagine. Lately I've been playing with the M1 Carbine. The weather here is really really bad. First we had severe rain, like 3 inches in one day, not it's gotten very very cold for this part of the country. I have lots of cast loads waiting to go for a nice day to shoot on and it's driving me up a wall not being able to shoot. I've also been shooting the hell out of my match 9mm barrel on my 1911. Bet I can beat any 1911 with that 9mm that you own. Ask 45 2.1 about how it's shooting. Bought a bunch of new magazines for it too. I'm always shooting my 30 Lugers too. Not so long ago was playing with my French MAS 49/56 with is a hoot with cast. I'm not apologizing for something that's not true. You should apologize to the human race for you know what. | |||
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aH YES,Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,et al, ad naus.)"I've done stuff with guns that you could never imagine""-- Including having the only firearm(s) ever known to shoot projectiles that turn over faster after they leave your barrels.!! Your "laughing guy"at Sierra Ballistics stop taking your calls,maybe.????????? | |||
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Spin 5150; When I read your rpm theory published in a reputable reloading manual, hell even a gun rag(they don't seem to require much testing or proof to publish anything) I will post on here that your were correct! Until then ..........................................................................................................................  | |||
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Larry, is that the best you can to...put IdaBull on me? Why you hang with shit like him Larry. Damn, I held you in a higher esteem then to pal around with a bottom feeder like him. | |||
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Starmetal Your selective memory is failing you again. You ask; "Please post where I said my HBAR was a one holer" Here it is; "Let's take my pre ban Colt HBAR with the 7 twist and shooting 55 gr bullets at 3200 fps. That's 329,142.8 rpm. That right has shot some really small groups for having a lousy NATO spec chamber, non match trigger, and no free floating forearm. Now if you're telling me that both rifles would shoot those slow bullets into a smaller group at a lower rpm rate, then you're telling me they are benchrest match winners forever, because when I say small groups I mean small groups....like the ones Carpetman use to get on me about...one hole." Now since we know you're going to kiss that one off just like you have every other time I have corrected you there's no sense responding to the rest of your post, not even the part where I agree with you. You only remember what you want to remember and how you want to remember it. I'm sure you don't even remember what it is you should apologise for. Nor do you remember the definition of the RPM threshold. It would be easy to look up but since you can't even find what you said a few post ago finding something in another thread on another forum would totally boggle your mind. I do agree that you've forgotten more....hell, you've just about forgotten everything  Larry Gibson | |||
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Starmetal Your halucinating again; I did not 'put him on you". Obviously he likes you  You've got Idabull and that other fellow you mentioned and I've got swheeler and 45 2.1. Not much difference  Larry Gibson | |||
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Well I didn't "put you onto" Starmetal but it's nice to see I'm not the only one who disagrees with him. Obviously you and Starmetal have had friendly conversations in the past? Larry Gibson | |||
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Starmetal RE the H-BAR; I forgot to mention all the "braggin you did with it "holding paper" at 100 yards with cast bullets. Maybe not a "one holer" but you sure do make it sound that way!  Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry I see "very small groups" there...where's the one holer? | |||
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Larry here's that HBAR thread: http://forums.accuratereloadin...32105729/m/145102359 I remember you were in it. Did you see what I posted my HBAR would shoot for groups? Look at how 308sako's HBAR shot. | |||
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I think you're mistaking that mention of Carpetman and one hole with me saying my HBAR shoots one hole groups. That's not what that sentence was in reference to. My HBAR doesn't shoot one hole groups. It was in reference to the fast 9 twist 22-250's. | |||
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IdaBull likes anything with a cock between it's legs, everyone knows that. At least that's what I've been told. Yeah, you didn't put him on me, even you would stoop to that sexual preference...sorry Larry. | |||
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Trying to save $ on your med's again,Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,Joe, et al, ad naus) ??? | |||
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Your AIDS med costing you much Ida? | |||
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Change comes slow on this tired old sphere..See what "one of us" had to say re:Starmetal(aka MaxPayne,Joe, et al) 10:55 Feb 18 2007 on this board. | |||
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....and here's the very next post after that homo: Rich - You confuse me. Starmetal's comment is a sharp strongly worded statement, but your's appears to be a personal attack - and yet in the same breath you say "the basic problem with society today...refusing to let other people be...without any sarcastic or profane or generally derogatory comments" followed with "Get a life starmetal!". It appears to me you've defined your statements as part of the problem of society. In good conscience, then, will you ban yourself? Contrast that with Marlinlover's comments (with emotion symbols) directly address the same issues by very politely providing a light-hearted contrast. Tim K (trk) Cat whisperer Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery Seems you fit that category better then one of Larry Gibson's bullets fit a chamber throat. | |||
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So I'm done arguing with you Idashit, if you want to discuss cast bullets, then do so. I'll say one thing for Larry, he's far more a man then you are. He's definitely not on here for personal attacks alone. Goodbye loser. | |||
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I don't know whether they would or not. I don't know at what pressure the bullet would obturate in the first place. A 44mag bullet which is shorter, obturates at fairly high pressure with a similar hardness alloy. Apparently there is no obturation at the muzzle and the barrel is short by comparison. So as long as the muzzle pressure is lower than the yield stress of the metal it will not obturate as is leaves the muzzle. Unless the bullet is being heated by friction in the bore which will lower the yield stress of the alloy. So paper patching will keep the bullet cooler and therefore stronger. I have never heard that comparison before. The only way a bullet could bend as it leaves the barrel is if if were to obturate unevenly. Makes sense. If a powder was still generating such a high pressure at the muzzle one would need to review one choice of powder and load. There is no problem with the 'edge'. It just has less radius than the No4's. So far, I have had no problem with it. I just thought it more likely to scrape lube off the bullet or worse, scrape lead off if I used very oversized bullets. Still, fire-lapping might not do it any harm but I don't think it necessary at this stage. Regards 303Guy | |||
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Is there an actual sharp edge? Why don't you take a chamber cast and you can see what you have to fit your bullet too. You can do a chamber cast with pure lead and the pounding method. Are you familiar with that method? | |||
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There is no actual 'sharp edge'. It's just no a 45 degree step from the chamber to the throat. What I had in mind was a bullet that would be swaged in the throat and then again in the bore. This conceptual bullet will need a boat tail of sorts so as to avoid little 'tails' from forming on the trailing edge of the bullet base. So far, the gas check I am using is a little small, so I expand its mouth before fitting into the mould. This provides the 'boat tail'. I have had the lead cast explained to me once. Please explain the pounding? If I were to simply make a lead cast, the small amount of contraction as the lead cools would tell me the maximum bullet size. I was thinking of making a sulphur cast. But now that you mention it .... I do have some plumbers solder! Isn't casting with pure lead supposed to make a cast of almost exact chamber dimentions? And isn't it quite difficult? I cannot heat the chamber anywhere near solder melting point as the scope mount is soldered on! (And the No.4 has seating compound between scope mount and receiver, so it can take even less heat. That is the one that is keyed, screwed and LocTited on and survived the drop test.) Regards 303Guy | |||
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Fill a fired case, with spent primer in place, with a harder alloy like WW's. You want the fill level just slightly below the case mouth. Cast a cylindrical slug of pure lead at just below bore diameter. You can drill a hole in a block of nice dry wood for this. Split the wood to get it out. You want the PB cylinder long enough to set against the case mouth and extend a bit into the rifling by maybe a 1/2 inch or so. Chamber the filled case. Slide the PB cylinder down the bbl from the muzzle end. Use a steel, brass, or aluminum rod that is a close fit to the bore. Apply electrical tape at intervals to help protect the bore. Make sure that you have it covered and fairly snug about the muzzle end. When the rod is down against the PB slug, it should protrude from the muzzle by 3-4 inches. Using a 3-4 lb hammer, pound the slug until the rod just bounces from the impact. Try working the bolt as you get close so you don't overdo it and bind things up. Your Pb slug will upset against the WW filled case and exapnd out to give you a lasting impression of the throat and initial groove/bore. Make up a few Pb cylinders and do this a few times as it takes a little practice to know when you got it right. | |||
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BBore described it perfect. If you make your lead cylinder long you not only get a casting of the chamber right ahead of the case mouth, the freebore, the throat, and the leade, but you will get a casting of the first part of the rifling too. Thanks BBore. | |||
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No problem. And that's BABore to you!  When I joined, many moons ago, my original BAbore got screwed up (probablly by me) and I had to settle for just the BB. | |||
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Starmetal "because when I say small groups I mean small groups.......one hole." When something like "like the ones Carpetman use to get on me about" is in a sentence seperated by ?.....?s it means that is an inserted thoguht and not part of the context of the sentence. That's basic English 101. Note the "one hole" claim in that sentence. Now I suppose you're going to claim that is not what you meant.....so be it but it is what you said. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well SURPRISE, SURPRISE....you can look things up! Notice I said "hold paper" and the claim of accuracy with cast bullets out of your H-BAR. The "one holer" you said in this thread. What does all this crap have to do with the RPM threshold anyway? Your one holer is claimed with jacketed bullets, not applicable here. Can we PLEASE get back to the topic of this thread which is the RPM threshold? Larry Gibson | |||
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303Guy I never did go along with the bending bullet in flight on on exit from the muzzle. I never saw any indication of that. I do know that bullets bend in the barrel during accelleration. This is with cast bullets having bore riding noses. If the alloy is too soft or the accelleration too quick the scraper groove or the 1st lube groove collapses and the nose cocks to one side. This is easy to see with recovered bullets where rifling marks are on one side of the bullets nose. This does not happen when the alloy is strong enough to resist the accelleration, even with those bullet noses that do not "fit". Starmetal never got back back with me after I answered him about "sharp edges" on rifling. I was expecting an explanation of what he thought but we got none. Sso I'm not sure where he's going with that thought. Larry Gibson | |||
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BaBore Welcome to my thread. Always appreciate your comments as you back them up with facts and they are mostly objective in nature. Though we occasionally disagree you input is always valuable. Larry Gibson | |||
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You talking about the one where I mentioned there is a raised fin along the whole side of all the rifling marks? The one that Bass and I talked about how they got there when the bore would prevent anything from protruding from the surface of the bullet? Here's what I think it is. I believe it's when the bullet starts out of the muzzle that it's under a lot of stress trying resist the rifling and the part that just exits the muzzle succeeds in being able to turn that little bit raises a fin. This process is continued raising a fin along the entire length making it a continuous fin. I had a very good picture of this and will see if I can find it to post it here. The only rifle I was able to find this in was the M95 Steyr I use to own. I found it, here it is:  Notice the ridge that is sticking up along the right hand side of the rifling. What's your theory on that? | |||
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Starmetal Yes I believe that is the one we were talking about. I do believe you and BaBore could be right but there may be another reason. I found the same thing once my self and it was with bullets shot out of a M91 MN. What does the M91 and the M95 have in common? Both were military rifles that saw a lot of cleaning rod rammed up and down from the muzzle end. The muzzle end of the barrel was worn a couple inches or so into the barrel (a lot of them are) with the bore about worn away. Couldn't that cause the ridge to raise on the leading edge as the shallower rifling peens it up and over sort of? My description isn't so good but you'll probably get the idea of what I'm thinking. Since both rifles are milsurps I think either answer is a possibility? Larry Gibson | |||
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Well thanks Larry that's mighty liberal of you. Of course there's no sense in starting off on the wrong foot here. I personally think your a real dumbass along with your pet theory and methods. But' I don't argue with idiots. Nor will I settle for trying the same tired things over and over again, and then expecting different results. That's one of the difinitions of insanity. Nope, I'll sit back and do my thing, and answer posts from people that have a real desire to improve their cast boolit shooting. Your whole RPM thing may or not have any merit. Don't care and don't want to hear about it. What rubs me the wrong way is your whole premise is about how you can't, instead of helping people learn how they can! | |||
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A 1 in 7 twist is pretty fast. What it has to do with the threshold thread is you said even jacketed has a rpm threshold range. Apparently over spinning a jacketed round isn't all that bad to it's accuracy. For what my HBAR is and it's fast twist, I think it shoots pretty decent. I remember in one of your threads you said over spinning comes in effect more the further the distance. Well I think 308sako shot one hell of a group at 405 yards with his fast twist HBAR. He shot it more then just one time also and claims he has witnesses. I've read all the things about how over spinning a bullet affects it flight, but I'm seeing too many fast twist shoot pretty good. | |||
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Larry, first off I swear I said I talked to Bass about this, not important, just don't want to drag BaBore into something he wasn't involved in. I see your thinking on the worn bore and believe that could do it also. Thing is the bore on my M95 wasn't worn. I got lucky and got a good rifle. I know the one thing that IS different about the M95 (and Buckshot agrees with this stating the same) is that like many military rifles of the period have exceptionally deep rifling. Don't know if you remember back on Castboolits I posted pictures of the base end of some bullets fired out of my M95 and Buckshot commented "My God, the base also looks square because of the damn deep rifling in the M95". I have to agree. So I wonder if that coupled with my theory has to do with it all. | |||
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That's quite clear, I guess we know where we stand. Interesting that you, starmetal, 45 2.1 and a couple others also; "your whole premise is about how you can't, instead of helping people learn how they can" regards to this issue. I find that interesting because I've gone over and over this with Bass and Starmetal on how anyone "can". You just don't listen any better than he does. Perhaps "dumb ass" goes both ways. So just "sit back and do your thing" as that won't bother me in the least, enjoy. Larry Gibson | |||
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Let's get back to that raised fin Larry. | |||
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So you did say it was Bass. I apologise as I had BaBore on my mind as I thought he was here to add something to this issue (doesn't matter whether I agree with him or not). Obviously he is not here for that. Seems you've dragged all the guys over here from Cast Bullet Forum for support. I would ask that at least you (Bass already has) start understanding that the RPM threshold is not a limit. I don't understand how you continue to think that. I've stated, I don't know how many times, here and on numerous other threads that it is not a limit. I've also gone over and over how to push the RPM threshold up. How do you think Bass and I got that "ill fitting" 311291 to shoot 2-3 moa at 2300+ fps (Bass was using 5 shot groups and I was using 10 shot groups)? We did it because we know how to push the RPM threshold up. If you understand the RPM threshold you can do it a whole lot easier simply because you understand what is really happening. It takes a lot of the guess work and trials and tribulations out of the process. Now BaBore on the other hand does it without understanding the RPM threshold. That's ok as he is succeeding. However, simply because he does not understand the RPM threshold does not mean it doesn't exist. You also push the RPM threshold but that does not mean it does not exist either. It does exist as evidenced by the multitude of questions from cast bullet shooters who ask; "why does my accuracy go south when i go over such and such velocity". If they understand why the accuracy "goes south over such and such velocity" (the RPM threshold) then whatever advise you, me, BaBore, 45 2.1, Bass or anyone else gives them can be put into much better context. I really don't give a shit if BaBore doesn't like me. He still comes up with some good information. He can say that is "liberal" of me but he just show's his ass that way. I am honest about facts and knowledge and don't care who it comes from, even from 45 2.1  Now, back to our discussion; I have little to no experience with a M95 so what you and Buckshot say makes good sense to me. I wish I still had access to the bullet trap I had access to years ago. It was in a crime lab and used ground up tires as the trap material. It sure worked good and the lab technician used a metal detector to locate the bullet so it was easy and quick to recover them. Cast bullets or the soft lead noses showed very littl pock marks from the rubber. There was not damage other than that to the bullets. I did a lot of "trapping" back then and found the results quite interesting. Unfortunetely my exwife threw those bullets and a lot of other lead/reloading/casting stuff into the dump when the split came  I've often thought of building a trap like that myself, just haven't got a place to leave it as it would be too bulky and heavy to transport back and forth to /from the range.Larry Gibson | |||
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I'm not going to discuss your rpm threshold. I understand what I'm doing. I do very well with high rpm. Enough said. Maybe your ex would have been a good bullet trap??? Just kidding. That raised fin bullet I captured in a rolled up rug that I soaked in my mtn stream. Shot into at the end and it was very gentle on the bullets as you can see. I too wish I had a really good trap and wish I had a very good test medium like the ballistic gel. The 6.5 Swede has very deep rifling along with many military 7x57's. You didn't reply to the firearms and calibers I've been fooling with lately. I thought you'd challenge my match 9mm 1911. Soon as I get around to it I'm going to try the Lee 312 155 out of my M1 Carbine. I need to make a tool to size the nose down. I miked one of the noses last night and they are .304. Too much of the carbine. If I'm just target shooting single loading doesn't bother me at all. Now in hunting I'd prefer something to work from the magazine, although I could use a single load first and rely on another feedable bullet from the magazine. | |||
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Now there is spin.....from"Spin". Almost as good as Junior and his politics. | |||
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Ok, if your not going to discuss the RPM threshold then start another thread to discus the other firearms and calibers you are playing with. I'll join in there. To discuss them here just confuses the issue. Larry Gibson | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussion
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