quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Starmetal

Pay attention to swheeler....he's learning

Larry Gibson

Those the fellows there that made your hammer forged barrel Larry?

Naw, that's you and swheeler trying to out do each other....sometimes you just got to beat it into you

Larry Gibson

I thought they were called "greys" but now I know it is really "grey wash"

It's been real, it's been fun, lets just say it's been real fun! but now I've got to run.

You pros have absolutrely no idea how much I'd like to spend a day at the range with you all with a caliper, chronograph, and camera.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
You pros have absolutrely no idea how much I'd like to spend a day at the range with you all with a caliper, chronograph, and camera.

Apparently it hasn't done you any good, as you don't know shit...especially about a 6.5 Grendel shooting cast.

But I do know a little about getting a 6.5 PPC how to shoot or don't you remember PMing me a long time ago asking me about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
But I do know a little about getting a 6.5 PPC how to shoot or don't you remember PMing me a long time ago asking me about it.

No I don't remember pming you about nor what forum it was on. Enlighten me. While I've got your attention what about my 6.5 Grendel shooting the 140 gr cast bullet with 4198 powder that would supposedly blow my AR15 up? In fact you replied to none of my post directed at you (an Larry) about that round and about what really breaks on AR15's when they let go.

I don't know jack about ARs but do know even with a bolt gun running 28 grs of 4198 in a case that size with a 140 gr bullet will take it apart eventually at worst or beat the heck out of your brass and the gun at best and you used that as an example before I asked you what load you were using. The fastest powder I've seen listed for the Grendel is 2230, 26.5 grs with a 120 gr bullet for 52,000 psi.

Doing a little research on the 6.5 Grendel forum there was a guy named OldJoe that got banned. In one of the threads he was involved in he recommended sticking with light loads when using 4198 in the 6.5 G. Any relation?

The forum when you asked the questions was this one. I might not know shit but am pretty sure I can tell when I'm being fed a bunch of it. You make out like the Grendel is some super round when in fact all it is is the 22 Russian or 6 PPC with the shoulder pushed forward a bit and the neck shortened and opened. Everything that applies to every other cartridge is going to apply to this one too and there's nothing crazy or special about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
I don't know jack about ARs but do know even with a bolt gun running 28 grs of 4198 in a case that size with a 140 gr bullet will take it apart eventually at worst or beat the heck out of your brass and the gun at best and you used that as an example before I asked you what load you were using. The fastest powder I've seen listed for the Grendel is 2230, 26.5 grs with a 120 gr bullet for 52,000 psi.

Doing a little research on the 6.5 Grendel forum there was a guy named OldJoe that got banned. In one of the threads he was involved in he recommended sticking with light loads when using 4198 in the 6.5 G. Any relation?

The forum when you asked the questions was this one. I might not know shit but am pretty sure I can tell when I'm being fed a bunch of it. You make out like the Grendel is some super round when in fact all it is is the 22 Russian or 6 PPC with the shoulder pushed forward a bit and the neck shortened and opened. Everything that applies to every other cartridge is going to apply to this one too and there's nothing crazy or special about it.

Yes, the reason for that information on the 6.5forum was so some not so bright boy would use 4198 with jacketed bullets. I was shooting cast. Sure light loads of it can be used with jacketed. Like I said, that 140 Saeco cast is 2/3 bore rider, and 1/3 groove bands. That gives no way the amount of friction/resistance that a jacketed 140 gr would. I feel you're concluding the high pressure because of thinking jacketed. That 25 gr H4198 load could have gone to the 28 grains (which we clarified that Larry misconstrued was my load, remember?) with no problems. To answer you brass taking a beatin, no way. The brass took it with stride. If you read that 6.5forum enough you'll find that so far nobody there has worn out any 6.5 Grendel Lapua brass. The worse the AR does to it is the damn scratch marks from extraction the case across the lugs in the barrel extension which have very sharp edges on inner surfaces that mate with the bolt lugs. Maybe a little extractor claw marks, but not bad.

So to answer your statement about 4198 being too hot for the Grendel, in light does not, for heavy doses with jacketed..downright dangerous, with cast a lot more workable.

Oh if there isn't anything special about the 6.5 Grendel then you explain why Quickload won't work with it and give you some downright dangerous charges...unless Quickload RECENTLY rectified that. Also there are a lot more powders listed for reloading the Grendel if you would have researched all the data and the one you listed here isn't the best.

I was more referring to Larry not being familiar with the 6.5 Grendel/PPc cases rather then you. I figured if you have a 6mmPPC you should understand them.

You have room to talk about others also, you're damn argumentative to. I've been trying to answer your question, but you want to be top dog.

That was me that misconstrued your load although I don't know if misconstrued is the right word since it's what you wrote. Weight is weight and even though it might be easier to start a cast bullet it still has to push 140 grs down the barrel.

I did do a bit of researching on the Grendel and what I said was 2230 was the fastest powder I found not the best. All the other powders were slower.

You don't have to be a scientist to figure out the Grendel and anyone with passing knowledge of the PPC or 7.62x39 could figure it out in a second. I do have a 6 PPC but also a 6.5 PPC I shoot with cast.

You're right I am argumentive when someone tells me I don't know shit. Go back a couple of posts and see what you wrote and who it was directed at. I have no interest in being top dog by the way but if asking a question or questioning something makes you think I do maybe it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Like the AR I don't know jack about Quickload but if it was giving some dangerous loads it must be because they didn't know the cartridge design or someone was feeding it the wrong information. That doesn't make it special it just makes it wrong.

Some of this might seem disjointed but I'm not going to take the time or try to figure out how to type between other poeples sentences so you'll have to go back and read what you wrote.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
That was me that misconstrued your load although I don't know if misconstrued is the right word since it's what you wrote. Weight is weight and even though it might be easier to start a cast bullet it still has to push 140 grs down the barrel.

I did do a bit of researching on the Grendel and what I said was 2230 was the fastest powder I found not the best. All the other powders were slower.

You don't have to be a scientist to figure out the Grendel and anyone with passing knowledge of the PPC or 7.62x39 could figure it out in a second. I do have a 6 PPC but also a 6.5 PPC I shoot with cast.

You're right I am argumentive when someone tells me I don't know shit. Go back a couple of posts and see what you wrote and who it was directed at. I have no interest in being top dog by the way but if asking a question or questioning something makes you think I do maybe it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Like the AR I don't know jack about Quickload but if it was giving some dangerous loads it must be because they didn't know the cartridge design or someone was feeding it the wrong information. That doesn't make it special it just makes it wrong.

Some of this might seem disjointed but I'm not going to take the time or try to figure out how to type between other poeples sentences so you'll have to go back and read what you wrote.

Here's what I said about 28 grains of 4198: Simple Larry, your analogy is wrong. Take 28 grs of 4198 and put it in a case like the 260, then put it in a case that it fills completely. Which one will give the higher velocity? We're not talking pressure here. No one is believing you!!!

Nowhere did I say that was my load for cast in my Grendel. So you're right, you DID misconstrue it.

Among the 6.5forum member, some of being some top notch benchrest shooters in the country, some military competition, who gave comments on how bad Quickload was for the 6.5 Grendel, was Bill Alexander himself...who said not to use it. I think all those mentioned above, without even really knowing you, know more what they are talking about.

I will agree with you on the 6.5 being not different to master or know then the other PPC rounds, but you're full of prunes throwing the 7.62x39 in because it reacts totally different then the other cartridges were are discussing. The ONLY thing it has in common is the head size.

You are also wrong about 2230 being the fastest powder in official Alexander Arms reloading data, Benchmark is faster. You are incorrect about the only difference in pressure in pushing a 140 cast bullet and jacketed bullet down the bore in terms of pressure is bullet weight.

Larry train you? Yeah I told you that you don't know shit and I'll say now too that you're an asshole. Probably why 45 2.1, BaBore, swheeler, me and other don't care for you. Go the fuck away and leave me alone with you BS. I shoot 140 cast bullets out of my 6.5 Grendel at velocity and you can't. End of story.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
You pros have absolutrely no idea how much I'd like to spend a day at the range with you all with a caliper, chronograph, and camera.

Starmetal

That sounds like a challenge to me I know Pat doesn't live all that far from you as compared to me. I propose you two get together for a "grudge match" to settle this dispute. Since Pat is from "my side" (I still don't buy your Grendels performance either BTW) you could bring along 45 2.1 from "your side". Then you guys could shoot, chronograph, measure and photograph the 6.5 Grendel loads, 45 2.1s 6.5 Swede loads and mabe even those SKS loads Hell, I'll even chip in for gas money

I think this is a very good idea to settle this. if you guys back out then eveyone will see your full of it. What say the two or maybe three of you?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
Larry train you? Yeah I told you that you don't know shit and I'll say now too that you're an asshole. Probably why 45 2.1, BaBore, swheeler, me and other don't care for you. Go the fuck away and leave me alone with you BS. I shoot 140 cast bullets out of my 6.5 Grendel at velocity and you can't. End of story.

Oh come on now Starmetal...we know you don't mean all that Be a sport, I'll bet there's a thing or two i could "train" you on about your AR

Let's have that "grudge match" and settle this in a stand up manly style instead of whining wanna be's on the internet Have you guys got the balls for it is the question, eh?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
You pros have absolutrely no idea how much I'd like to spend a day at the range with you all with a caliper, chronograph, and camera.

Starmetal

That sounds like a challenge to me I know Pat doesn't live all that far from you as compared to me. I propose you two get together for a "grudge match" to settle this dispute. Since Pat is from "my side" (I still don't buy your Grendels performance either BTW) you could bring along 45 2.1 from "your side". Then you guys could shoot, chronograph, measure and photograph the 6.5 Grendel loads, 45 2.1s 6.5 Swede loads and mabe even those SKS loads Hell, I'll even chip in for gas money

I think this is a very good idea to settle this. if you guys back out then eveyone will see your full of it. What say the two or maybe three of you?

Larry Gibson

Jesus Larry, you resorting to first grade psychology now? If I back out I'm full of it blah blah blah. I don't have to shoot with him. We're talking that I couldn't get 2400 fps out of my 6.5 Grendel AR15 with a 140 grain cast bullet using H4198 powder (which by the way is a hair faster then IMR 4198) and you said that too. I've already done that and proved it to the both of you and you accepted and apologized. You renigging now?

Frankly from dealing with you assholes for quite some time now I'm not sure I'd want to meet any of you. You just love and live to keep this shit going don't you Larry?

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Frankly from dealing with you assholes for quite some time now I'm not sure I'd want to meet any of you. You just love and live to keep this shit going don't you Larry?

Starmetal

Au contraire, it's obvious to everyone that I'm trying to put an end to it. See you are backing out psychology or not. Hell Joe, you always said you'd like to show me to prove it, nows your chance. Besides, I'm not disputing the velocity (Pat is doing that0 although I am skeptical about the pressures being "safe". It is the accuracy that I still dispute. You've not finished the test, the accuracy part still remains. Oh, you thought we all forgot about that didn't you? Not hardly. Back out and your word on anything you've said is shit. Of course, you may be lucky as we've not heard from Pat. He may not want to shoot with an asshole either, namely you

Settle down and give it some thought. You may enjoy it and it's your really big chance to put me down with facts for once Not that I have any fear of that but it would be fun.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Frankly from dealing with you assholes for quite some time now I'm not sure I'd want to meet any of you. You just love and live to keep this shit going don't you Larry?

Starmetal

Au contraire, it's obvious to everyone that I'm trying to put an end to it. See you are backing out psychology or not. Hell Joe, you always said you'd like to show me to prove it, nows your chance. Besides, I'm not disputing the velocity (Pat is doing that0 although I am skeptical about the pressures being "safe". It is the accuracy that I still dispute. You've not finished the test, the accuracy part still remains. Oh, you thought we all forgot about that didn't you? Not hardly. Back out and your word on anything you've said is shit. Of course, you may be lucky as we've not heard from Pat. He may not want to shoot with an asshole either, namely you

Settle down and give it some thought. You may enjoy it and it's your really big chance to put me down with facts for once Not that I have any fear of that but it would be fun.

Larry Gibson

I know you're not disputing the velocity and Pat i is. Now if he wasn't such a smartass and asked me how the hell I was doing it I'd tell him. Here's one thing he hasn't thought about, although he will say he has, because he did mention having a bolt which is stronger,BUT think too that a 6.5 Grendel bolt rifle has a different chamber then the AR15, that is tighter? Bill Alexander even talked alot about this and warned don't use a 6.5 reamer meant for a bolt action to built an AR15. The main issue though in his concern is feeding reliability, not the change in pressure.

Actually once the weather clears a day of shooting AND a road trip would be kind of fun. If you're ever up to it let me know because I'm really not such a bad guy and people that know me would probably say I'm even kind of fun to be around. I'll go through your letter and answer by paragraph.

I guess I did misconstrue your reply to Larry so you win that one but I think you're misconstrueing what I'm saying also. I don't doubt you can get 2400 fps out of your Grendel but have serious doubts about getting it with the accuracy you claim with cast in an 8 twist.

I don't give a hoot about Quickload and don't know why you keep bringing it up. Just because it doesn't work with the Grendel doesn't mean the Grendel's special and defies all the laws it just means something's screwed up in the program.

I wasn't talking about comparing the ballistics of a 7.62x39 and the PPC or Grendel I was talking about case design. When you're forming your cases from 7.62x39 don't you just anneal it, neck it down, possibly leave a false shoulder, seat the bullet into the lands, and fireform it? Might have to neck turn since I don't know the dimensions of an AR Grendel chamber. It's a nice little accurate cartridge designed to improve down range performance with an AR but there's nothing mystical about it.

You're right again that Benchmark is listed for your case but you forgot to mention that it's only listed for a 90 gr bullet and it's comparable to 3031 in burn speed. I guess we'll just have to disagree on bullet weight not being an issue when using cast vs jacketed but I don't think I'd load a max charge of BM for a 90 gr jacketed bullet behind a 140 gr cast. That's just me though because I'm pretty happy with the current configuration of my body parts.

Maybe I am an asshole and coming from a guy that's been kicked off 2 of the 3 forums I know he visited I suppose that would make you the expert on the subject. I didn't realize this was a personality contest so don't be too upset if I don't lose any sleep because a few guys don't care for me. I do have to thank you though for giving me a chuckle by dragging a few guys names and "others" into the discussion. Must be some correlation between saying "others" and being a fantastic shot. I'll try it this summer and see if it improves my results.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
Actually once the weather clears a day of shooting AND a road trip would be kind of fun. If you're ever up to it let me know because I'm really not such a bad guy and people that know me would probably say I'm even kind of fun to be around. I'll go through your letter and answer by paragraph.

I guess I did misconstrue your reply to Larry so you win that one but I think you're misconstrueing what I'm saying also. I don't doubt you can get 2400 fps out of your Grendel but have serious doubts about getting it with the accuracy you claim with cast in an 8 twist.

I don't give a hoot about Quickload and don't know why you keep bringing it up. Just because it doesn't work with the Grendel doesn't mean the Grendel's special and defies all the laws it just means something's screwed up in the program.

I wasn't talking about comparing the ballistics of a 7.62x39 and the PPC or Grendel I was talking about case design. When you're forming your cases from 7.62x39 don't you just anneal it, neck it down, possibly leave a false shoulder, seat the bullet into the lands, and fireform it? Might have to neck turn since I don't know the dimensions of an AR Grendel chamber. It's a nice little accurate cartridge designed to improve down range performance with an AR but there's nothing mystical about it.

You're right again that Benchmark is listed for your case but you forgot to mention that it's only listed for a 90 gr bullet and it's comparable to 3031 in burn speed. I guess we'll just have to disagree on bullet weight not being an issue when using cast vs jacketed but I don't think I'd load a max charge of BM for a 90 gr jacketed bullet behind a 140 gr cast. That's just me though because I'm pretty happy with the current configuration of my body parts.

Maybe I am an asshole and coming from a guy that's been kicked off 2 of the 3 forums I know he visited I suppose that would make you the expert on the subject. I didn't realize this was a personality contest so don't be too upset if I don't lose any sleep because a few guys don't care for me. I do have to thank you though for giving me a chuckle by dragging a few guys names and "others" into the discussion. Must be some correlation between saying "others" and being a fantastic shot. I'll try it this summer and see if it improves my results.

Most people get booted from forums for harsh arguing or not getting along with a certain moderator. I never got kicked for posting dangerous loads or very inaccurate information. So I don't see what bringing that up has anything to do with reloading knowledge. It's more an etiquette thing. Thing is I don't have to take shit off of ANYONE on these forums, and by God I don't.

Now with that said you are pretty much correct on forming the 6.5 Grendel from 7.62x39 brass, but it does one peculiarity that must be dealth with and that is it forms a ring donut at the base of the neck. That has to be removed with either inside or outside neck reaming.

I bring up Quickload (I also don't use it or care about it) because many reloaders use it. Quite a few on the 6.5forum. One such guy had it and posted a load it said and it was way out of line to dangerous side. Some other posters thought maybe he injected the wrong data to get the output, but not to be so. They too got the same dangerous loads. That's when Bill Alexander said not to use it for the Grendel, at least for now until it's brought to the attention of Quickload as to why it does that for this cartridge. That's all.

I was perusing my reloader manual last night (Speer) and there are quite a few loads of 4198 in applications where it fills the case of small cartridge in the order of the Grendel capacity that use heavy long bullets in their application. One was 6x47 using a 90 gr bullet with near the load I'm using and one of the others is 223 which nearly filled it's case.

Larry said you're not far from me. What state do you live in?

One final question, do you know Robert Whitney?

Pat in the old Lyman cast book there is a load for 4198 for the 6.5 Jap with a slightly heavier bullet, 143 grains, and full bearing surface as it's a Loverin style, and the top load is 26 grains...no pressure listed. Yes I know the Jap holds more powder, but not much more then the Grendel. I also know that those Type 38 actions are much stronger then an AR15, but still if my load is that bad to you why would Lyman recommend that load for the Jap. Surely it's hot enough that it would very inaccurate according to you and Larry?.

Pat don't doubt the accuracy of my load for the Grendel with cast. Don't forget this is a match AR15 with heavy bull barrel and free floated forearm tube and match trigger. The barrel is a stainless Lothar Walther which is a very good barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
Pat in the old Lyman cast book there is a load for 4198 for the 6.5 Jap with a slightly heavier bullet, 143 grains, and full bearing surface as it's a Loverin style, and the top load is 26 grains...no pressure listed. Yes I know the Jap holds more powder, but not much more then the Grendel. I also know that those Type 38 actions are much stronger then an AR15, but still if my load is that bad to you why would Lyman recommend that load for the Jap. Surely it's hot enough that it would very inaccurate according to you and Larry?.

Pat don't doubt the accuracy of my load for the Grendel with cast. Don't forget this is a match AR15 with heavy bull barrel and free floated forearm tube and match trigger. The barrel is a stainless Lothar Walther which is a very good barrel.

Pat and Starmetal

Looks like we're getting somewhere on our potential "grudge match". I think this is great and will support it how ever I can

Starmetal

The Third Edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook shows the 6.5 Jap tested in a 19" barreled rifle with a 9" twist. The 143 gr cast shows a max load of 26 gr 4198 giving 2159 fps. You show in your Grendel that you shoot one less grain of powder in a smaller case with 1" more barrel and get 220+ more fps. I'll take that (still with a grain of salt though) but I still dispute the accuracy given the 8" twist and 214,000 RPM. That's why the 'grudge match" would be so much fun not to mention enlightening! We all sit here speculating when a real test would give us the correct answers. I'm all for it

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
Pat in the old Lyman cast book there is a load for 4198 for the 6.5 Jap with a slightly heavier bullet, 143 grains, and full bearing surface as it's a Loverin style, and the top load is 26 grains...no pressure listed. Yes I know the Jap holds more powder, but not much more then the Grendel. I also know that those Type 38 actions are much stronger then an AR15, but still if my load is that bad to you why would Lyman recommend that load for the Jap. Surely it's hot enough that it would very inaccurate according to you and Larry?.

Pat don't doubt the accuracy of my load for the Grendel with cast. Don't forget this is a match AR15 with heavy bull barrel and free floated forearm tube and match trigger. The barrel is a stainless Lothar Walther which is a very good barrel.

Pat and Starmetal

Looks like we're getting somewhere on our potential "grudge match". I think this is great and will support it how ever I can

Starmetal

The Third Edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook shows the 6.5 Jap tested in a 19" barreled rifle with a 9" twist. The 143 gr cast shows a max load of 26 gr 4198 giving 2159 fps. You show in your Grendel that you shoot one less grain of powder in a smaller case with 1" more barrel and get 220+ more fps. I'll take that (still with a grain of salt though) but I still dispute the accuracy given the 8" twist and 214,000 RPM. That's why the 'grudge match" would be so much fun not to mention enlightening! We all sit here speculating when a real test would give us the correct answers. I'm all for it

Larry Gibson

The 6.5 Jap has more powder capacity so that one grain more isn't going to make up the velocity in a more spacious case...and you know that Larry...again you're looking for EXCUSES and trouble making. You saw the photo's of the chronograph and you can ask my wife because she hollered at me for cluddering he pc area as I had the chrono off the tripods and up there so I could snap the pics with my webcam.

With you deceitful mouth still going we lost progress. First you doubt, then I prove, then you accept and apologize, and now you're at taking it with a grain of salt. What shall I call you???

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

With you deceitful mouth still going we lost progress. First you doubt, then I prove, then you accept and apologize, and now you're at taking it with a grain of salt. What shall I call you???

Starmetal

What's with this 'decietful mouth" crap? I said i accepted it. The "grain of salt" has to do with the claimed accuracy. You were asked to chronograph AND shoot several groups to prove consistancy. You only chronographed, some would say that's "half assed" and typical of your claims. You only show that which supports your claims. So I say lets have the "grudge match" and you can prove it

Talk with Pat, figure out a date for you two to get together (I notice 45 2.1 is real quiet after the invite) and let me know what I can do to support it.

Larry Gibson

Pat & Larry, Look at this latest reloading data by Hodgdon for the 6.5 Grendel jacketed loads. Pay attention to the 120 & 123 grain loads. What's amazing too is the max loads are compressed.

I don't think anyone's debating that the Grendels an accurate and efficient little cartridge or that you have an excellent rifle but I will debate and continue to do so, without actually witnessing it, someone shooting consistent ragged hole (1/2 inch or less) groups out of one with a cast bullet at 23 or 2400 fps. Must have a bit of Missouri blood in me because I'm more of a show me type of guy. This is also turning into a how much pressure the AR take argument and that's not what it's about. 25 grs of 4198 is a hot load in a Grendel sized case and even if the gun doesn't come apart it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't shoot. Comparing it to the 6.5 Jap doesn't mean anything because the Jap has about 25% more capacity.

About your letter. A donut forming at the base of the neck when reforming cases is pretty common and not a peculiarity to the Grendel. Precision Shooting had scores of articles about it years ago. I'm glad we're past that Quickload thing. Speer doesn't list cast bullets to my knowledge so any loading information they have doesn't apply to the topic. I don't know if you're talking about the 6.5x47 (222 mag case) or the 6.5x47 Lapua when you mentioned that part. I didn't look at the Hodgdon data but if it doesn't list cast bullets it doesn't matter. I live in Illinois but don't mind a bit of driving and I don't know the guy you mentioned.

I'm not 100 years old or been casting for 90 years like a lot of people talk about, not that I see where that matters anyway, but I have done quite a bit of experimenting with twists and small capacity cases. Mostly with the .30s but also with the 6.5 and if someone can get cast bullets going 2400 fps with 1/2 in. groups in an 8 twist I want to see it. Not look at pictures on the web but actually be there to see it. I might not have the experience of some here or be full of shit but I have fit barrels to my rifles for the 30 PPC, 30 BR, 30 Tall Dog, 30x47, 6.5 PPC and 6.5 Tall Dog in twists 8,10,11,13,14, and 17 using 155 to 250 gr bullets. I don't want to hear that BS by anyone about bragging either because it's not a brag it's fact. Notice one thing though, nowhere did I say I'm shooting consistent half inch groups. Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to know you're not talking to someone who just fell off the turnip truck and if you want to actually SHOW me you can do what you claim I'm willing to travel to see it.

One more thing. Before anyone tells me just because I can't do it it can't be done or that my knowledge and methodology aren't up to making it happen I say maybe it can be done or maybe my methods and knowledge about cast bullets aren't up to it but instead of telling me show me. Not some fluke of one time out of a thousand but steady consistant results. Even a blind hog can find an acorn once in a while and it's happened to all of us but people that know what they're talking about don't grab that acorn and shout it to the world they remember all the ones they missed.

Yes!!!!! We're getting down to the nuts and bolts of it! Enough of this talk, eh? You boys want to get down to some serious shooting. When's it going to be and what can I do to help?

Larry Gibson

Pat respond to the new Hodgdon data I posted the link to on the compressed loads of 4198 with the heavier jacketed bullets. I got you on the Benchmark being the fastest powder, then you renigged with that you meant for heavier bullets, as the Benchmark was used with the 90 grain. Well I got you again, here's loads with even a faster powder 4198 WITH the heavier bullets.

I see Larry taught you well. My Grendel shoots 5/8 inch groups. I don't believe I ever said 1/2 inch. Show me.

What do YOU think the pressure limit is Bill Alexander set for the Grendel in the AR15?

Larry I see you back on in the members list. So before you give me somemore of BS tell Pat to explain my recent post. He's just like you, twist the fact. Fact is Hodgdon just come out with new data for the 6.5 Grendel (not the 6.5 Jap, not the 6x74, but the 6.5 Grendel) with compressed loads of 4198 powder with the HEAVIER bullets. Also ask him what the pressure is Alexander set for the Grendel. One more thing, that goes for you too on the new data and I never said the reforming donut on the Grendel was unique to it, that's more Pat i Larry Gibson jibberish. Until then there will be no replies from me.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
Larry I see you back on in the members list. So before you give me somemore of BS tell Pat to explain my recent post. He's just like you, twist the fact. Fact is Hodgdon just come out with new data for the 6.5 Grendel (not the 6.5 Jap, not the 6x74, but the 6.5 Grendel) with compressed loads of 4198 powder with the HEAVIER bullets. Also ask him what the pressure is Alexander set for the Grendel. One more thing, that goes for you too on the new daat and I never said the reforming donut on the Grendel was unique to it, that's more Pat i Larry Gibson jibberish. Until then there will be no replies from me.

Starmetal

I went to the Hodgdon site but could find nothing for the Grendel. I also looked for your link you said you posted but can't find it. Can you give it to me again so I can look up what you're talking about?

"Also ask him what the pressure is Alexander set for the Grendel.'

You've already ask him that. perhaps he is researching it. However, were it me I wouldn't give a rats rear about what pressures a cartridge designer gives, the bottom line is; what is a safe pressure in the AR? Perhaps that's where this Alexander set his pressure, I don't know and will wait for you to enlighten me.

"One more thing, that goes for you too on the new daat and I never said the reforming donut on the Grendel was unique to it, that's more Pat i Larry Gibson jibberish."

Could you please explain just what the hell you're talking about? I don't have a clue about the new "data" and what "reforming donut"? You are the one talking "jibberish" here, please translate.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
Larry I see you back on in the members list. So before you give me somemore of BS tell Pat to explain my recent post. He's just like you, twist the fact. Fact is Hodgdon just come out with new data for the 6.5 Grendel (not the 6.5 Jap, not the 6x74, but the 6.5 Grendel) with compressed loads of 4198 powder with the HEAVIER bullets. Also ask him what the pressure is Alexander set for the Grendel. One more thing, that goes for you too on the new daat and I never said the reforming donut on the Grendel was unique to it, that's more Pat i Larry Gibson jibberish. Until then there will be no replies from me.

Starmetal

I went to the Hodgdon site but could find nothing for the Grendel. I also looked for your link you said you posted but can't find it. Can you give it to me again so I can look up what you're talking about?

"Also ask him what the pressure is Alexander set for the Grendel.'

You've already ask him that. perhaps he is researching it. However, were it me I wouldn't give a rats rear about what pressures a cartridge designer gives, the bottom line is; what is a safe pressure in the AR? Perhaps that's where this Alexander set his pressure, I don't know and will wait for you to enlighten me.

"One more thing, that goes for you too on the new daat and I never said the reforming donut on the Grendel was unique to it, that's more Pat i Larry Gibson jibberish."

Could you please explain just what the hell you're talking about? I don't have a clue about the new "data" and what "reforming donut"? You are the one talking "jibberish" here, please translate.

Larry Gibson

First here's the Hodgdon link:

http://www.myrnaloupalmistry.c...dgdon_%20grendel.htm

Notice the heavier 120 gr bullets using COMPRESSED loads of 4198.

Second this makes it two powders that are fast for this cartridge. Before Pat said only Benchmark AND that Benchmark was only used in the lighter bullet loads. Well 4198 IS faster then Benchmark and used in the HEAVIER bullet loads as you see by that chart.

Bingo, damn you got one right. Bill Alexander did set the pressure to be safe in the AR15. Everyone I know that shoots the Grendel knows what that pressure is. Like Dirty Harry said "A man got to know his limitations". So, Pat better had know lots about the 6.5 Grendel in an AR15 to argue about it with me. You won't even guess what Alexanders pressure limit is by perusing that Hodgdon chart...because that isn't it.

Now let's see how you fellows twist the last few posts up.

I see we're back to the pressure thing and jacketed bullets instead of talking about your accuracy with cast which is what I want to talk about. I don't know how you measure groups but I've measured a ton of them. OK so now you're at 5/8th inch groups at 2390 fps with a 140 gr cast bullet and 25 grs of 4198, is this right?

I didn't see any link to Hodgdon and didn't see anything about the Grendel when I visited their site. Saying you got me on the BM thing is a little off considering it's like I said only listed for a 90 gr bullet. You're the one who used the term "peculiarity" to describe the donut not me. Maybe where you come from "peculiarity" means something different than where I'm from but the definition is a distinguishing feature or oddity.

I don't really think I'm talking jibberish because all I'm doing is responding to what you wrote, not what you think you wrote or an editted version. Can I assume our shooting day's cancelled??

Larry, Donut is the term given to a ring of brass at the junction of the neck and shoulder when reforming in some instances. It's caused by using the thicker shoulder area of the case to form a part of the neck. In normal chamberings it wouldn't make a difference but when running a tight neck it can pinch the bullet and cause high pressures. Considering that the Grendel is having the shoulder blown forward I don't know why there'd be a donut. The neck will be thicker if using 7.62x39 and might need turning but still the donut eludes me.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
I see we're back to the pressure thing and jacketed bullets instead of talking about your accuracy with cast which is what I want to talk about. I don't know how you measure groups but I've measured a ton of them. OK so now you're at 5/8th inch groups at 2390 fps with a 140 gr cast bullet and 25 grs of 4198, is this right?

I didn't see any link to Hodgdon and didn't see anything about the Grendel when I visited their site. Saying you got me on the BM thing is a little off considering it's like I said only listed for a 90 gr bullet. You're the one who used the term "peculiarity" to describe the donut not me. Maybe where you come from "peculiarity" means something different than where I'm from but the definition is a distinguishing feature or oddity.

I don't really think I'm talking jibberish because all I'm doing is responding to what you wrote, not what you think you wrote or an editted version. Can I assume our shooting day's cancelled??

Larry, Donut is the term given to a ring of brass at the junction of the neck and shoulder when reforming in some instances. It's caused by using the thicker shoulder area of the case to form a part of the neck. In normal chamberings it wouldn't make a difference but when running a tight neck it can pinch the bullet and cause high pressures. Considering that the Grendel is having the shoulder blown forward I don't know why there'd be a donut. The neck will be thicker if using 7.62x39 and might need turning but still the donut eludes me.

I posted the link again couple posts above your most recent post, see it?
Yeah I'm talking pressure because if you don't believe the pressure how you going to believe anything else? Whatever I meant by peculiar had noting to do with it being rare or isolated to the 6.5 Grendel.

Sorry I was typing when you posted the link. OK it lists a max load of 24.2 of 4198 using a jacketed 123 gr HPBT. And how exactly does this have anything to do with using 25.0 grs of 4198 with a 140 gr cast bullet??

"Whatever I meant by peculiar had noting to do with it being rare or isolated to the 6.5 Grendel."

Well if you don't know what you mean when you write something don't you think it's a little peculiar that you'd tell people they write jibberish when they respond?

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
"Whatever I meant by peculiar had noting to do with it being rare or isolated to the 6.5 Grendel."

Well if you don't know what you mean when you write something don't you think it's a little peculiar that you'd tell people they write jibberish when they respond?

If you don't understand that statement then you can't interpret what you read. Want to argue somemore?

What it has to do is my 25 gr doesn't fill the case up. That compressed load with a bullet just 20 grs lighter (and of the harder jacketed type)does. If you can't figure that out I give up. In a nut shell, YOU ARE WRONG that my 25 gr with the 140 cast being hot. How about this, I'll send you a few 140 casts bullets and some 140 jacketed and a steel rod that fits the 6.5 bore very close and you tell me with bullet you can push through your bore easier buy hand/hammer...okay?

I can't see how I didn't understand your statement since it's pretty well black and white.

So there's no more argument or miscommunication we'll set it all down in writing. You're using 25 grs of 4198 in a Grendel case shooting it in a LW 8 twist barreled AR 15 with a standard chamber using a 140 gr bore ride bullet at 2400 fps (from your chronograph pictures) and getting consistent or at least fairly consistent 5/8th inch groups. Is this all right or did I forget something.

No need to send the bullets and waste the money on postage. I don't hammer steel rods down $300 barrels and if what I wrote above is what you're saying I'm kind of hoping I'll get the chance to pick them up personally. Hell, maybe we could do what they do out west on the CB forum and start an annual get together with guys from the Midwest. I'm a CBA guy at heart but could always find time to squeeze in another weekend devoted to shooting.

Starmetal

Here's what the site gives for that load with the Grendel;

123 GR. SIE HPBT/H4198/ 2.250"/23.7C/2375/50,000 PSI

Seems like Pat and i understand what your load is. Are you saying that you and this Alexander guy load the Grendel upwards of the SAAMI MAP of 55,000 psi for the .223/5.56 based AR or to a higher MAP?

I'm just wondering how you load another 1.3 gr of powder into that case under a heavier bullet and still get basically the same velocity out of a 4" shorter barrel? Again, I take your velocity as you said it is. I'm just comparing the figures you told me to look at is all.

I do have one question though regarding the 140 gr bore rider; are the seated to magazine length to function from the magazine or are they seated long to single feed?

Not "twisting" anything just making observations on the data you've provided and asking one question to clarify it a little.

Oops, one other question; when are you and Pat getting together, any idea yet?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Starmetal

Here's what the site gives for that load with the Grendel;

123 GR. SIE HPBT/H4198/ 2.250"/23.7C/2375/50,000 PSI

Seems like Pat and i understand what your load is. Are you saying that you and this Alexander guy load the Grendel upwards of the SAAMI MAP of 55,000 psi for the .223/5.56 based AR or to a higher MAP?

I'm just wondering how you load another 1.3 gr of powder into that case under a heavier bullet and still get basically the same velocity out of a 4" shorter barrel? Again, I take your velocity as you said it is. I'm just comparing the figures you told me to look at is all.

I do have one question though regarding the 140 gr bore rider; are the seated to magazine length to function from the magazine or are they seated long to single feed?

Not "twisting" anything just making observations on the data you've provided and asking one question to clarify it a little.

Oops, one other question; when are you and Pat getting together, any idea yet?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

The Saeco's are loaded to fit the magazine, but guess what? The base doesn't pass the bottom of the case neck. So I have that whole internal powder capacity open. Now envision that 25 grs doesn't fill that case up. Beside I can't load them out farther because of the very short throat, not the magazine restriction. Now why can't I get it through the two of your heads that it's not only weight that raises pressure, but friction. Don't reloading manuals tell you not to substitute a different bullet in their load, even if it is the same weight because it may have a different bearing surface profile? Doesn't loading jacketed into the rifling or even close to rifle increase pressure? That Saeco bullet isn't obturating the nose either because I've recovered many of them that don't show that. It's a very low friction bullet. Wouldn't you agree it's lower friction then a 140 gr loverin style? I played a long time searching for a bullet that would fit the short throat, fit the magazine, and not have it's base protrude into the case. It's like Saeco designed this bullet for my 6.5 Grendel, but we know they've had it for a long time.

Those top loads for the 120 jacketed in that data (because they didn't test anything higher, like AA data does) is compressed!!! They couldn't get enough 4198 into that case with their 120 gr jacketed bullet to make 4198 dangerous, but yet you and Pat make it out like 4198 is C4. It's okay we use other caliber cast bullets that are way out of proportion to the normal jacket weight, but lo and behold I use a 140 gr cast with 4198 powder. You know as I worked up those loads I started way low. As I increased the charge increment by increment I wondered if the 4198 was going to show any substantial velocity increase because I wasn't noticing much working it up.

No, I'm not saying that Alexander surpasses that 55k you mentioned for the 5.56 at all. I'm just saying I bet you and Pat don't know what K he set for it. Now, the friend that I have that is in the industry HAS surpassed that, but with a newer alloy bolt.

Larry, I don't really want to drag Bill Alexander into this because he seems like a pretty smart guy and doesn't list what I would consider to be hot loads on his website, plus he never came right out and told me I didn't know shit.