quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
actually it is a 10 twist, and it was at 300 yds.
the 50 100 and 200 yd groups were fairly linear [or near so] untill i went over the rpm threshold.
it was then that the boolits started to veer.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Ok, Lamar is Pdawg?

Starmetal

I think you need to reread his post (both of them).

Actually for a cast bullet the 311284 has a rather decent BC. You “assumed" the velocity was 3069 fps when he actually said he worked up to 93 gr of RL25 for 3069 fps. Now he does claim the MOA at 3000 fps goal was reached. I do think that was quite good as I’ve said for PP’d bullets. Now, I have no idea where you get the idea there is a “range” limitation to the RPM threshold. I’ve not said there is and I don’t know anyone else who has. I see you are frustrated as you’re calling in others. Banded bullets are not regular cast bullets. PP’d bullets are not regular cast bullets. Jacketed bullets are not regular cast bullets. This thread is about regular cast bullets; the ones with lube grooves full of lube, GCs on the bottoms and shot that way. That is what we’re discussing here.

Maybe instead of trying to “prove Larry wrong” if you’d look at this whole subject objectively you might learn something.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Ok, Lamar is Pdawg?

Starmetal

I think you need to reread his post (both of them).

Actually for a cast bullet the 311284 has a rather decent BC. You “assumed" the velocity was 3069 fps when he actually said he worked up to 93 gr of RL25 for 3069 fps. Now he does claim the MOA at 3000 fps goal was reached. I do think that was quite good as I’ve said for PP’d bullets. Now, I have no idea where you get the idea there is a “range” limitation to the RPM threshold. I’ve not said there is and I don’t know anyone else who has. I see you are frustrated as you’re calling in others. Banded bullets are not regular cast bullets. PP’d bullets are not regular cast bullets. Jacketed bullets are not regular cast bullets. This thread is about regular cast bullets; the ones with lube grooves full of lube, GCs on the bottoms and shot that way. That is what we’re discussing here.

Maybe instead of trying to “prove Larry wrong” if you’d look at this whole subject objectively you might learn something.

Larry Gibson

I don't know if Lamar is pdawg or not, but seems he's talking about the same post. Maybe you should learn how to read instead of berating others to make yourself look good or smarter (neither of which you are) because he never stated clearly what distance those small groups shot at 3069 fps were at.

Just seen an interesting statement on another Sharp Shooter series on the History Channel. Although the sharp shooters today have better equipment and probably even are doing more incredible feats, the sharp shooter of yesteryear still live in fame. The statement was : It's hard to beat a Myth". I say that to you Mr Gibson, because your fictional threshold is just that...a myth.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Ok, Lamar is Pdawg?

Starmetal

I think you need to reread his post (both of them).

Actually for a cast bullet the 311284 has a rather decent BC. You “assumed" the velocity was 3069 fps when he actually said he worked up to 93 gr of RL25 for 3069 fps. Now he does claim the MOA at 3000 fps goal was reached. I do think that was quite good as I’ve said for PP’d bullets. Now, I have no idea where you get the idea there is a “range” limitation to the RPM threshold. I’ve not said there is and I don’t know anyone else who has. I see you are frustrated as you’re calling in others. Banded bullets are not regular cast bullets. PP’d bullets are not regular cast bullets. Jacketed bullets are not regular cast bullets. This thread is about regular cast bullets; the ones with lube grooves full of lube, GCs on the bottoms and shot that way. That is what we’re discussing here.

Maybe instead of trying to “prove Larry wrong” if you’d look at this whole subject objectively you might learn something.

Larry Gibson

I don't know if Lamar is pdawg or not, but seems he's talking about the same post. Maybe you should learn how to read instead of berating others to make yourself look good or smarter (neither of which you are) because he never stated clearly what distance those small groups shot at 3069 fps were at.

Just seen an interesting statement on another Sharp Shooter series on the History Channel. Although the sharp shooters today have better equipment and probably even are doing more incredible feats, the sharp shooter of yesteryear still live in fame. The statement was : It's hard to beat a Myth". I say that to you Mr Gibson, because your fictional threshold is just that...a myth.

I wasn't "berating" Lamar, I was asking questions because I'm interested in what he is saying. He makes sense to me, unlike a couple others here as of late.

Before you go off on me being a smart ass maybe you should look at the continual personal attacks. You rank right down there with swheeler and 45 2.1 for that. I thought of anyone you could come up with some facts and at least understand. Not aking for agreement just understanding. You can not give a definition of theRPM threshold and you've no idea about ballistics. This leads me to believe you haven' read or studied any of the books you claim to. You try to talk the talk but you've not even walked the walk. Too bad, I am really disappointed in you Joe. Obviously they were right to throw you of the Cast Boolit Forum.

This thread is closed.

Larry Gibson

quote:

swheeler: is it possible that your Cliff Clavin visions are related to that"very limited education,and cannot articulate my thoughts very well"condition you wrote about earlier??????????

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Larry were you a cop or a postman? For some unknown reason, whenever I start reading one of your theories a picture of CLIFF CLAVIN(remembers "Cheers" on TV) pops into my head.

quote:

u

quote:

by Larry Gibson Ok, Lamar is Pdawg?

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:

quote:

u

first off i am R5R everywhere else i wasn't smart enough to make me so here...
getting 1" or smaller groups at 100 is easy with ordinary cast boolits and ordinary hunting rifles,with average 3x9 scopes.
you just gotta mess with alloys,lubes etc...
however to mess with velocity other factors come into play.
your average boolit like the 311's and the rcbs silh boolit fail at some point.
the rpm's are part of it,the launch is too..
paper patching is just another form of copper coating.[and this aint the answer either i have some copper plated stuff that won't do near as well as my cast]
now for the tests i could hold under one inch in the threshold over the threshold the groups opened up considerably over 50% this was at 100 and 200 yds when i went to 300 yds they fell apart totally however by backing them down [back into the limit] groups at 300 were in the 5x6" range.
i measure the outsides of my groups with the scientific wooden ruler,and will post them as 1-1/4x1-1/2 which means widexhigh
now the eye opener for me in this realm was when i was able to shoot my 30-30 with a 12 twist and open sights and was able to up my velocities into the 22+ range and shoot groups in the 1-1/2" range at 100 yds same boolit right outta the same box.[visually inspected] only.
i don't have a rifle that will do 3069 fps with jacketed let alone cast unless i load some super light bullets.
all my rifles shoot lead except one,the 25-06 i use for long range club shoots,it incidentally is a ruger off the shelf and i use my hunting load for it to shoot to 500 yds.

quote:

trolling for mullet????????? Idabull

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

by Larry Gibson Ok, Lamar is Pdawg?

Lamar are you saying that you do NOT post as Pdawg on cast boolits and you did NOT run this test with a 300RUM with velocities over 3050fps.

And are you saying that the above quote by Larry Gibson is an out and out lie?

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
the 25-06 might but it don't with the balanced load i am using and 120 gr bullets.
the es and sd are very low the case is full of powder and the groups are repeatable morning noon and night -20 to 90*. clean or dirty bbl
with cast boo;its the same criteria applies consistency,over time, under all conditions.
4 shots at h.v with cast just don't cut it. if i have to wait for the temp to be at 45 with a wind outts the south and a cloud to blow over to shoot 1 shot, then wait for the next cloud to shoot again.
it isn't going to happen.
i shoot when i get the chance rain,snow or hot.
and expect my boolits to work the same everytime if they don't, i fix them.


if you guys would listen to what is being said you could add something to the discusssion,and just possibly some new guy might be interested enough to ask a question and learn something,there isn't anything better then having a youngster have their eyes opened to your "wisdom" when you outshoot them with a cast boolit and it ain't no poof round....

yes there is an accuracy threshold at [rpm/ velocity],yes it can be broken,and yes it ain't easy to keep your accuracy over it time after time.
but i haven't seen how y'all are doing it.....
except forr the lines larry threw out a bit ago.
jell,i could learn more from joe brenners "book" then i would here..

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Wow! Could that be the end of Bat Gibson? Larry first off I didn't say that you were berating Lamar.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:

quote:

u

first off i am R5R everywhere else i wasn't smart enough to make me so here...
getting 1" or smaller groups at 100 is easy with ordinary cast boolits and ordinary hunting rifles,with average 3x9 scopes.
you just gotta mess with alloys,lubes etc...
however to mess with velocity other factors come into play.
your average boolit like the 311's and the rcbs silh boolit fail at some point.
the rpm's are part of it,the launch is too..
paper patching is just another form of copper coating.[and this aint the answer either i have some copper plated stuff that won't do near as well as my cast]
now for the tests i could hold under one inch in the threshold over the threshold the groups opened up considerably over 50% this was at 100 and 200 yds when i went to 300 yds they fell apart totally however by backing them down [back into the limit] groups at 300 were in the 5x6" range.
i measure the outsides of my groups with the scientific wooden ruler,and will post them as 1-1/4x1-1/2 which means widexhigh
now the eye opener for me in this realm was when i was able to shoot my 30-30 with a 12 twist and open sights and was able to up my velocities into the 22+ range and shoot groups in the 1-1/2" range at 100 yds same boolit right outta the same box.[visually inspected] only.
i don't have a rifle that will do 3069 fps with jacketed let alone cast unless i load some super light bullets.
all my rifles shoot lead except one,the 25-06 i use for long range club shoots,it incidentally is a ruger off the shelf and i use my hunting load for it to shoot to 500 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Wow! Could that be the end of Bat Gibson? Larry first off I didn't say that you were berating Lamar.

Starmetal

One last swing, eh!

You continue to lie and make half assed excuses when caught. This is what you said;

"Maybe you should learn how to read instead of berating others to make yourself look good or smarter (neither of which you are)"

Now tell us again how that is not you telling me I was "berating" Lamar.

You keep lying and changing statements like that you just could be President, based on the current example.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

I don't know how you get so disillusioned. I never berated Lamar, I didn't question him why his 25-06 wouldn't get over 3000 fps.

Your BS isn't flying here as well on Castboolits.

I thought you were finished, that this thread was closed?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

I don't know how you get so disillusioned. I never berated Lamar, I didn't question him why his 25-06 wouldn't get over 3000 fps.

Your BS isn't flying here as well on Castboolits.

I thought you were finished, that this thread was closed?

Yo Dude!

You need to get a better brand of street drugs.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ACCUSED ME OF BERATING LAMAR.

I never accused you of berating anyone (except maybe me now and then). You are very confused here and/or you are lying on purpose. To what reason escapes us.

BTW; 45 2.1 is the one having a hard time on Cast Boolits. Ask him how he can claim 1800 fps as "high velocity" in the 6.5 Swede, his only claim to fame of "helping others". Everyone see's through his BS over there. They see through your's here just as they saw through it on Cast Boolits when they threw you off.

Before you post here denying 45 2.1, remember I have your PM of you stating just that.

Is this thread closed? Apparently I don't have that power. Besides, I couldn't just let you get away with those blatant lies.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Starmetal

Can't you read the Cast Boolit site, I thought you could?


I didn't say I didn't "believe" in lubing bore rider bullet noses. I don't find it benificial at the velocties I shoot most bore riders. I have lube some for higher velocity hunting noses but find they collect dirt if you don't just pull them out of the box and shoot them. However I do use them occasinally.

Nice group, get back to us on the velocity.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Well we know how precise and accurate your tests are so that's conclusive then that you find no "advantage" to it.

Well I have my friend, that's what helped my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 AR get good groups.

How's it feel to have egg on your face? Read it and weep, you said it...no advantage, you tested it, gets dirt on it.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Well we know how precise and accurate your tests are so that's conclusive then that you find no "advantage" to it.

Well I have my friend, that's what helped my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 AR get good groups.

How's it feel to have egg on your face? Read it and weep, you said it...no advantage, you tested it, gets dirt on it.

Starmetal,
Are your conclusions based on statistically valid sample sizes?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
BTW; 45 2.1 is the one having a hard time on Cast Boolits. Ask him how he can claim 1800 fps as "high velocity" in the 6.5 Swede, his only claim to fame of "helping others". Everyone see's through his BS over there.
Before you post here denying 45 2.1, remember I have your PM of you stating just that.
Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Starmetal

Can't you read the Cast Boolit site, I thought you could?


I didn't say I didn't "believe" in lubing bore rider bullet noses. I don't find it benificial at the velocties I shoot most bore riders. I have lube some for higher velocity hunting noses but find they collect dirt if you don't just pull them out of the box and shoot them. However I do use them occasinally.

Nice group, get back to us on the velocity.

Larry Gibson

Larry, I didn't get that nose lube off Castboolits....I pulled it from here and here is the post:

"303Guy

See, what I tell ya? Starmetal does know some things! I concur with his last post. Now don't have the big "H" reading that but he and I agreeing does happen dancing

Many times a 'healthy' coat of suitable lube on the nose and shank of the bullet to 'float' the bullet into the bore" is detrimental to accuracy as the bullet is swaged down and rides the lube instead of taking to the rifling. I have lubed cast bullet noses during several tests but found no advantage to it. One major disadvantage, particularly with a hunting bullet, is the amount of dirt and crud a lubed nose picks up, even in a magazine."

Larry Gibson

Notice the sentence "I have lubed cast bullet noses during several tests but found no advantage to it."

Well we know how precise and accurate your tests are so that's conclusive then that you find no "advantage" to it.

Well I have my friend, that's what helped my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 AR get good groups.

How's it feel to have egg on your face? Read it and weep, you said it...no advantage, you tested it, gets dirt on it. The dirt part I agree with, but face it, I'd say the higher percentage of cast bullet shooters shoot targets with them. So the dirt is a non issue as you pointed out keeping them in the box. I guess you could say Loverins pose this same problem. One final note, LLA doesn't seem as sticky as 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Well we know how precise and accurate your tests are so that's conclusive then that you find no "advantage" to it.

Well I have my friend, that's what helped my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 AR get good groups.

How's it feel to have egg on your face? Read it and weep, you said it...no advantage, you tested it, gets dirt on it.

Starmetal,
Are your conclusions based on statistically valid sample sizes?

Yes,why yes they are. In fact the DuPont ballistics lab in Richmond, Va ran them.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Starmetal

Can't you read the Cast Boolit site, I thought you could?


I didn't say I didn't "believe" in lubing bore rider bullet noses. I don't find it benificial at the velocties I shoot most bore riders. I have lube some for higher velocity hunting noses but find they collect dirt if you don't just pull them out of the box and shoot them. However I do use them occasinally.

Nice group, get back to us on the velocity.

Larry Gibson

Larry, I didn't get that nose lube off Castboolits....I pulled it from here and here is the post:

"303Guy

See, what I tell ya? Starmetal does know some things! I concur with his last post. Now don't have the big "H" reading that but he and I agreeing does happen dancing

Many times a 'healthy' coat of suitable lube on the nose and shank of the bullet to 'float' the bullet into the bore" is detrimental to accuracy as the bullet is swaged down and rides the lube instead of taking to the rifling. I have lubed cast bullet noses during several tests but found no advantage to it. One major disadvantage, particularly with a hunting bullet, is the amount of dirt and crud a lubed nose picks up, even in a magazine."

Larry Gibson

Notice the sentence "I have lubed cast bullet noses during several tests but found no advantage to it."

Well we know how precise and accurate your tests are so that's conclusive then that you find no "advantage" to it.

Well I have my friend, that's what helped my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 AR get good groups.

How's it feel to have egg on your face? Read it and weep, you said it...no advantage, you tested it, gets dirt on it. The dirt part I agree with, but face it, I'd say the higher percentage of cast bullet shooters shoot targets with them. So the dirt is a non issue as you pointed out keeping them in the box. I guess you could say Loverins pose this same problem. One final note, LLA doesn't seem as sticky as 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube.

Starmetal

For crying out loud, can't you read english and understand what is said. How do you confuse "not believing" with "find no advantage". If you further read and work real hard at comprehending (perhaps using a dictionary for the emaning of words might help) then will note I said "with the bore riders at the velocities I use them at. I have and do lube bullet noses sometimes just as I said but the negatives to their use (I mentioned a couple) far out weight their "advantages" so I don't use them except in some tests.

Yes, Loverns do pose the same problems but there is no need to lube their noses as their noses do not ride the bore and they have sufficient lube in their grooves. Since I get much better accuracy with bore riders at velocities (in or below the RPM threshold) where leading is not the issue I've no need to lube the noses. I only use what I consider "high velocity" loads for hunting and I do not use Loverns for that. Although the Lovern 311466 at 2500-2600+ fps out of my 14" twist .308W would be very good for hunting deer, etc. I still would not use it for the reasons mentioned with exposed lube. If I was going to hunt with a cast bullet at "high velocity" velocity I would get the LBT mould (Bass's favorite) as it does not have any exposed lube grooves when loaded in the .308W or the '06. That LBT bullet is pretty much the equal of 311466 for "high velocity" loads.

Do you perhaps undertand the difference between "not believe" and "no advantage" now? Go wipe the egg off your own face, you look rediculous here.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by 45 2.1:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
BTW; 45 2.1 is the one having a hard time on Cast Boolits. Ask him how he can claim 1800 fps as "high velocity" in the 6.5 Swede, his only claim to fame of "helping others". Everyone see's through his BS over there.
Before you post here denying 45 2.1, remember I have your PM of you stating just that.
Larry Gibson

Your a funny guy Spin. You go over to Cast Boolits and ask the people there just what velocity they stop getting accuracy at. They'll tell you 1600 fps. Unlike you, they can keep their story straight. So 1800 fps to them is like 1 MOA accuracy at 2400 fps is to you. You or they can't get it. High velocity is realitive to the cartridge used and the skill level of the operator. Maybe you can understand that.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Larry Gibson

Enough with the reading already Larry. You should practice what your preach. Okay, you said the negatives (that's read as plural) outweigh the advantages. I only saw you post a negative (read as singular). Where's the rest? What you listed as picking up dirt and what ever that may contaminate, is only one negative.

I love how you twist things. I only mentioned Loverins because their many exposed grooves pick up dirt also. Nowhere did I mention lubing the noses of Loverins. Perhaps someone not as well versed to shooting cast bullets, such as you, would lube Loverin noses.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Larry Gibson

Enough with the reading already Larry. You should practice what your preach. Okay, you said the negatives (that's read as plural) outweigh the advantages. I only saw you post a negative (read as singular). Where's the rest? What you listed as picking up dirt and what ever that may contaminate, is only one negative.

I love how you twist things. I only mentioned Loverins because their many exposed grooves pick up dirt also. Nowhere did I mention lubing the noses of Loverins. Perhaps someone not as well versed to shooting cast bullets, such as you, would lube Loverin noses.

Starmetal

I did not 'twist" anything. You are so hyped to prove me wrong at anything that you see negatives in everything I write. I mentioned the Loverns not as critical to you but to simply expand the conversation and add to it. You did mention the Lovern, didn't you. So I was just conversing. Take it or leave it but that is all it was, conversation about what I do and my experiences.

Here's some of the other "negatives" to why I don't like to use lube on bullet noses. Now, please get this straight; I am only saying why I don't use lube on bullet noses. I am not playing the Master of the Craft like numerous others (you know them as you quote them all the time) and telling you or anyone else to use, or not use, cast bullets with lubed noses. If you or anyone else wants to use them, be my guest. Got that?

Why I don't use them other than in high velocity (Real high velocity) tests;

*The lubes collect dirt and grit. This dirt and grit imbedded in the lube can be harmfull to the bore when the bullet is fired.

*Handling the ammo gets lube on your fingers which get onto the gun, etc in place you don't want it.

*You can't carry lose rounds in a pocket, pouch or round in a stock cartridge carrier (as in when hunting) without them colleting all sorts of said dirt and grit.

*If said nose lubed rounds are used in a tube magazine lever gun the lube collects inside the tube fouling it. The lube also scrapes off on the loading gate and the feed mechanism fouling the action.

*If said nose lubed rounds are fed from a magazine rifle the lube gets scraped off in the magazine, on the feed ramp and the shell feeding scrapes lube off of the lubed bullet nose beneath it.

*With many high velocity cast bullet loads I use (soft alloys for expansion with hunting bullets) I've found lubing the bullet noses does not decrease leading nor improve accuracy.

Those are a few (plural) of the negatives. There are probably a few more but that's all I remember right now. Again, before you go off half cocked as usual, I am not advising, recomending or telling anyone one way or the other to use or not use lubed bullets. I've only said what I do and why.

BTW; when I do use lube on bullet noses at real (not 45 2.1s idea of high velocity) high velocity I most often use LLA for the reason you mentioned. Someone has mentioned coating it after it dries with JPW but I've not tried that yet.

Now when we were discussing .303s bullets with lubed noses I mentioned using Rpaines Mould Prep and Midways Mould Prep on bullet noses with good success and few negatives. You didn't really respond so I thought you weren't interested. Now you are "berating" me about lubing bullet noses???? What gives?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by 45 2.1:
All the posters on the Cast Boolit Forum did report accuracy loss above 1600 fps. They "stick to their story" because it factual. Now if we go back through that thread we find the question asked was basically; "why can't we get accuracy at the same velocity with 140+ gr cast bullets as we get with jacketed 140 gr bullets. We get "high velocities of 25-2700 fps with the j bullets so why can't we get accuracy at even a "high velocity" of 23-2400 fps with cast bullets?"

You and the couple of others proceeded to tell and refer to every one who couldn't get accuracy at 23-2400 fps out of there swedes with cast bullets as "ignorant" of ways to load cast bullets. You only get "good accuracy" in the 1800 fps range. Not hardly the "high velocity" everyone, including you, were referring to. So now you want to say "high velocity" is "relative". Okay, I'll agree with that. When using cast bullets "high velocity" is ,in fact, "relative". I agree with you because i too get "good accuracy" into the 1800 fps range with a 266455 Lovern in my 6.5 Swedes. However, I still get "best accuracy" down in the RPM threshold at around 1450 fps. Really 'good accuracy is up through 1650 fps and good accuracy holds up into the 1800 fps range. Above that Larry goes to improved cylinder.

Your still a funny guy, not hee haw either. Several people have posted about getting excellent groups in the 2200 to 2400 fps range. Nothing to it if you do it right, but your stuck useing conventional methods, as always, and you can't do it yourself. So you , and others, say it can't be done. To bad for you Spin (and you've really earned that title the honest way, so you've got it permanently). The 7.5 " twist in the 6.5mm bores isn't a limit, you just have absolutely no idea what to do with it. It can be done, but you aren't going to find out (so you can harp and take credit where it isn't due as you normally do). And Yes Larry, those of us who have posted about it have done it. Really nice groups at your vaunted 2400 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Larry Gibson

Enough with the reading already Larry. You should practice what your preach. Okay, you said the negatives (that's read as plural) outweigh the advantages. I only saw you post a negative (read as singular). Where's the rest? What you listed as picking up dirt and what ever that may contaminate, is only one negative.

I love how you twist things. I only mentioned Loverins because their many exposed grooves pick up dirt also. Nowhere did I mention lubing the noses of Loverins. Perhaps someone not as well versed to shooting cast bullets, such as you, would lube Loverin noses.

Starmetal

I did not 'twist" anything. You are so hyped to prove me wrong at anything that you see negatives in everything I write. I mentioned the Loverns not as critical to you but to simply expand the conversation and add to it. You did mention the Lovern, didn't you. So I was just conversing. Take it or leave it but that is all it was, conversation about what I do and my experiences.

Here's some of the other "negatives" to why I don't like to use lube on bullet noses. Now, please get this straight; I am only saying why I don't use lube on bullet noses. I am not playing the Master of the Craft like numerous others (you know them as you quote them all the time) and telling you or anyone else to use, or not use, cast bullets with lubed noses. If you or anyone else wants to use them, be my guest. Got that?

Why I don't use them other than in high velocity (Real high velocity) tests;

*The lubes collect dirt and grit. This dirt and grit imbedded in the lube can be harmfull to the bore when the bullet is fired.

*Handling the ammo gets lube on your fingers which get onto the gun, etc in place you don't want it.

*You can't carry lose rounds in a pocket, pouch or round in a stock cartridge carrier (as in when hunting) without them colleting all sorts of said dirt and grit.

*If said nose lubed rounds are used in a tube magazine lever gun the lube collects inside the tube fouling it. The lube also scrapes off on the loading gate and the feed mechanism fouling the action.

*If said nose lubed rounds are fed from a magazine rifle the lube gets scraped off in the magazine, on the feed ramp and the shell feeding scrapes lube off of the lubed bullet nose beneath it.

*With many high velocity cast bullet loads I use (soft alloys for expansion with hunting bullets) I've found lubing the bullet noses does not decrease leading nor improve accuracy.

Those are a few (plural) of the negatives. There are probably a few more but that's all I remember right now. Again, before you go off half cocked as usual, I am not advising, recomending or telling anyone one way or the other to use or not use lubed bullets. I've only said what I do and why.

BTW; when I do use lube on bullet noses at real (not 45 2.1s idea of high velocity) high velocity I most often use LLA for the reason you mentioned. Someone has mentioned coating it after it dries with JPW but I've not tried that yet.

Now when we were discussing .303s bullets with lubed noses I mentioned using Rpaines Mould Prep and Midways Mould Prep on bullet noses with good success and few negatives. You didn't really respond so I thought you weren't interested. Now you are "berating" me about lubing bullet noses???? What gives?

Larry Gibson

Larry you are amazing. First let's tackle that I'm so hell bent on proving you wrong statement. I'm not. I "am" hell bent on you putting out not so true information so that novices might pick up on it and get frustrated and give it up altogether. I'm also disappointed with you in that I really really thought you and I could argue (with a few name calling once in awhile, which we do, and it's never any of the really bad stuff, you know what I mean) but apparently you can't. I'm a pretty forgiving guy. Yes, I get hot, very hot, but only lasting a short period of time. Way off subject take Tpr Bret...we got into it pretty heavy. Know what? I'm not angry with him any at all now. But you, you had to go and say some really low stuff like "I'm see why they booted you off Castboolits" etc., you know what I mean. So I'll let you chew on that for awhile. I'm still, with all that has transpired here, willing to post and argue with you Larry.

Now to your numerous negatives about lubing bullet noses. I tried to be more clear in the previous post, but maybe I wasn't, maybe you didn't get it. All the ones you states with the "*" on them Larry can all be lumped into ONE and that is lube/dirt. Lube collects dirt and then it gets on everything it comes in contact with. You really only listed maybe two at the most. Now I'll explain to you why I use lube on the noses of the two bullets I mention and incase you have forgotten they are the 6.5 Saecon 140 and the Lee 312-155 both fired out of my AR15's...and that reason is, especially the Saeco, doesn't carry enough lube in it's single groove to lube my barrel sufficiently. I could fire a string out of the rifle and the muzzle was dry very dry and the muzzle end of the barrel would eventually start to foul and my accuracy declined at that time. With the lubed noses I found that to disappear. That Lee 312-155 really doesn't carry a lot of lube either, at least for my AR15's barrel. Don't forget Larry on both of those some the lube gets carried away with the gas down the gas system of the AR's since they are direct impingment.

Now is this a post you can handle without resorting to what has been going on? Friendly arguing Larry????? Ok????