quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
If you kill the sow, the matriarch that controls the group of animals the hierachy will fall.

When it falls these animals will breed without control. When they do so, you will have a larger population than if you kept the sow alive.

Do you get it??????

You do not want the sow dead becauase it is contraproductive...

Wow, now that's a true revelation. Think of all the money and study done on trying to figure out how to effectively manage the population of wild pigs, wherever it is they do such studies. And all this time Goldie already knew the answer.

Spare the Matriarch, shoot the piglets and the boars. We can collectively thank Goldie for that little gem of knowledge on animal behavoir, and pig social structure.

It couldn't get much simpler than that. Let the sows mature, and self regulate their productivity, and all we need to do is harvest a piglet ever so often for the bar-b-q, and maybe crop the boars, or catch and castrate and release them, for later harvest.

I think I got the essence of that. Sort of let nature take its course, except for the castrate part. I'm amazed that we didn't think of that.

KB

KB.....you've been far too kind to this dolt. But I see you're having fun with it.

Heck Norton, being mean is too easy. I get more fun from gently and thoughtfully messing with people, including you.

Heck, now we have a new pal, with Goldeneye. We can declare him or her, whichever, our honorary pig whisperer. It's an entirely new era for the wild pigs.

I mean, really, think about it. Any success in convincing the sows to curtail productivity, through nature or whispering, has significant implications in hoping to make some headway in reducing teen pregnancy. Do you not get the connection?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:It couldn't get much simpler than that. Let the sows mature, and self regulate their productivity, and all we need to do is harvest a piglet ever so often for the bar-b-q, and maybe crop the boars, or catch and castrate and release them, for later harvest.

I think I got the essence of that. Sort of let nature take its course, except for the castrate part. I'm amazed that we didn't think of that.

KB

No catching, KB, the hogs suffer when you catch them. Try and keep up!

This is bordering on entertaining!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Heck Norton, being mean is too easy. I get more fun from gently and thoughtfully messing with people, including you.

KB

C'mon KB, I put a lot of thought into being mean.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:


Here's a picture of a Hoonah Fjord Dog. KB

Hoonah Fjord dogs are cool. Shameful story, but back in '02 on a trip based out of Juneau I mistook one of the furry hounds you speak of for a color phase BB. Still, that Fjord dog made for a damned decent rug...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
If you kill the sow, the matriarch that controls the group of animals the hierachy will fall.

When it falls these animals will breed without control. When they do so, you will have a larger population than if you kept the sow alive.

Do you get it??????

You do not want the sow dead becauase it is contraproductive...

Wow, now that's a true revelation. Think of all the money and study done on trying to figure out how to effectively manage the population of wild pigs, wherever it is they do such studies. And all this time Goldie already knew the answer.

Spare the Matriarch, shoot the piglets and the boars. We can collectively thank Goldie for that little gem of knowledge on animal behavoir, and pig social structure.

It couldn't get much simpler than that. Let the sows mature, and self regulate their productivity, and all we need to do is harvest a piglet ever so often for the bar-b-q, and maybe crop the boars, or catch and castrate and release them, for later harvest.

I think I got the essence of that. Sort of let nature take its course, except for the castrate part. I'm amazed that we didn't think of that.

KB

Interesting reading -- all you who pay absolutely no attention in killing Sows just might want to read up on killing the Sows haphazardly and randomly, you just might learn something Me thinks Goldeneye has killed more than a couple a boar . . .

When the Sows are shot, there is no control in the herds, and you'll have a bunch of teenagers tearing all those fields up at all times of the year, getting bred whenever -- sorta like those teenagers in highschool, and, sorta like when Ma & Pa are outa town and you got the house to yourself without any disciplinary actions to keep you in line But hey, keep trying it your way -- the trouble is everyone has to have the same mentality or those orphan piglets (teenagers) on the neighbors farm are all of a sudden on your farm tearing your fields up. Na, won't work, keep killing 'em all, worse case scenario is you won't run out of hunting opportunities , Waidmannsheil, Dom.

quote:

Heck, now we have a new pal, with Goldeneye. We can declare him or her, whichever, our honorary pig whisperer. Wink It's an entirely new era for the wild pigs.

You are right KB. I think we should hoist him onto our shoulders and call him our "little swedish smurf".

quote:

Originally posted by mattyboy:

quote:

Heck, now we have a new pal, with Goldeneye. We can declare him or her, whichever, our honorary pig whisperer. Wink It's an entirely new era for the wild pigs.

You are right KB. I think we should hoist him onto our shoulders and call him our "little swedish smurf".

LOL! That's funny!

Whitworth, I guess somebody is going to have to hunting so we can start a new thread.

You're probably right!

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
If you kill the sow, the matriarch that controls the group of animals the hierachy will fall.

When it falls these animals will breed without control. When they do so, you will have a larger population than if you kept the sow alive.

Do you get it??????

You do not want the sow dead becauase it is contraproductive...

quote:

Originally posted by Dom:
Interesting reading -- all you who pay absolutely no attention in killing Sows just might want to read up on killing the Sows haphazardly and randomly, you just might learn something Me thinks Goldeneye has killed more than a couple a boar . . .

When the Sows are shot, there is no control in the herds, and you'll have a bunch of teenagers tearing all those fields up at all times of the year, getting bred whenever -- sorta like those teenagers in highschool, and, sorta like when Ma & Pa are outa town and you got the house to yourself without any disciplinary actions to keep you in line But hey, keep trying it your way -- the trouble is everyone has to have the same mentality or those orphan piglets (teenagers) on the neighbors farm are all of a sudden on your farm tearing your fields up. Na, won't work, keep killing 'em all, worse case scenario is you won't run out of hunting opportunities , Waidmannsheil, Dom.

My response to Goldeneye was toung-in-cheek, of course, but notice what I didn't say, or at least say outright !!!

Now, more to the point. I would like to know exactly where you come up with this stuff. Is it a theory, or is it based in something more substantial. Of course I have researched the issue, although limited to what I can find on an internet search. But a simple Google on various key words, bring similar results, which all mostly talk about the overpopulation problem, especially in the US.

Right now, the way you and Goldeneye have presented your stand is as though you are coming from a factual basis. You didn't state it as an opinion, nor did you give any clue as to how you reached your conclusion, opinion, theory, or whatever character it is that you actually say.

If this is the dogma of some animal activist orginization, then say so. If you have some evidence, scientific or otherwise, any good backup for what you say, then present it. I for one at least would be interested in reading something real, rather than imaginary.

Everyone I have talked to about this, hunters, land owners, farmers, biologists, all seem to agree that when a sow is taken, the impact on the population is dramatic in reducing future piglets. This is commonly accepted as fact. Whether it is or not is obviously debatable by you and some others. I'm just asking that you provide backup for your stand in disagreement.

Otherwise, I for one, will declare your statments as mere opinion, with nothing but imagination and emotion behind it, and rapidly dismiss them as pure hog chit.

KB

quote:

. . . Right now, the way you and Goldeneye have presented your stand is as though you are coming from a factual basis. You didn't state it as an opinion, nor did you give any clue as to how you reached your conclusion, opinion, theory, or whatever character it is that you actually say.

If this is the dogma of some animal activist orginization, then say so. If you have some evidence, scientific or otherwise, any good backup for what you say, then present it. I for one at least would be interested in reading something real, rather than imaginary. . .
KB

I make a simple friendly post on here and all of a sudden a pile of jokes are made and I'm now the scape goat?

Anyway, nope, not some Animal Rights stuff so rest easy. I didn't think most in the US even worried about factual studies, hell, some jokers probably can't even comprehend them . In Germany each state has an organization set up for all aspects of hunting and facts, a quick Google on 'Schwarzwildbejagung' pulled up a lot of pages, and more facts than would take me a month of Sunday's to read. For example: "Die Leitbache z. B. synchronisiert die Rausche in der Rotte und steuert das Raum-Zeit-Verhalten."

From: Wild Boar

Which translates to: "The Leading Sow controls the timeframe for when all Sows are bred and leads and keeps the group in line."

Now things are different anywhere, so whether you all believe any of this is your issue, I've seen it firsthand, it's not something we made up.

I think though that closed minds are not going to believe any study or facts put forth, your minds are already made up, and you's all just reminded me why I don't spend much time in this forum.

I don't know if mattyboy is a he or she either, and I don't give a Hog Chit either way, but it appears remarks are made to just irritate folks for the fun of it, and I ain't getting in no pissing contest over it because it's just not worth my time. You's just might learn something from the 'Old World' where they have had wild boar in the forests far longer than the 'New World' was even discovered.

Tschuss.

quote:

Originally posted by Dom:

I make a simple friendly post on here and all of a sudden a pile of jokes are made and I'm now the scape goat?

Anyway, nope, not some Animal Rights stuff so rest easy. I didn't think most in the US even worried about factual studies, hell, some jokers probably can't even comprehend them . In Germany each state has an organization set up for all aspects of hunting and facts, For example: "Die Leitbache z. B. synchronisiert die Rausche in der Rotte und steuert das Raum-Zeit-Verhalten."

From: Wild Boar

Which translates to: "The Leading Sow controls the timeframe for when all Sows are bred and leads and keeps the group in line."

Now things are different anywhere, so whether you all believe any of this is your issue, I've seen it firsthand, it's not something we made up.

I think though that closed minds are not going to believe any study or facts put forth, your minds are already made up,

You's just might learn something from the 'Old World' where they have had wild boar in the forests far longer than the 'New World' was even discovered.

Tschuss.

OK, good reply, except for the defense part, some of which I cut out from your quote.

I'm not trying to make you a scape goat, and I DO give a chit either way, and I am interested in factual studies, and I can comprehend them, except that I don't read in any language but English.

I was trying to ask a straight forward question, and did not intend to insult or place you on defensive. I did intend to prod you into providing backup for your statments, and apparantly I was somewhat successful with that. Keep in mind that this isn't personal. It is not a fight between you and I. Others may view that differently, but that's their problem. I'm interested in facts. We already pretty much know the scope of opinion.

I tried the link you provided, but unfortunately I can't read German. If you have other meaningful info, I'll read it if it's in English.

Here's some links I found in English on the subject:

http://britishwildboar.org.uk/control1.html

http://www.gosanangelo.com/new...-hog-numbers-rising/

http://news.google.com/news/mo...QIsEeMcGn57B5tG-aMjM

http://www.natchezdemocrat.com...ulation-growth-hogs/


I also suggest "chill" which is another English slang word for your edification. Not all of us here are closed minded.

My style is to not take this stuff too seriously, and try to have some fun with it, and explore new ideas. Sometimes I poke a little fun at people and tease, but I consider that much easier to take than just slaming their opinion. Your statment about sows as matriarchs, the effect on population, is so outside the common thinking here, that I figured it was worth more discussion, and try to get to the source of it.

However, frankly, in order to discuss it seriously, credibility is prerequisite.

KB

Over here, I'm pretty sure they get screwed whenever the boss-hog (boar) says so. they haven't gotten around to women's lib crap yet, probably never will.

In all seriousness, the adult feral sows get bred at least twice a year. They may keep two broods with them, but all the others are on their own, and the "lead sow" would have no influence except by telepathy.

In the Southern US, the feral pigs, with 2 litters/year, are not subject to the fierce winters of Northern Europe, where the lead Eurasian Wild sow may somehow protect her one litter/year from Boars seeking to breed the 6-7 month old females.
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org...l/wlnotebook/pig.htm

OK fair enough KB, truce, I’m chilling just didn’t appreciate the roughshod treatment. Sorry for taking this thread on a different course -- might be better for the Mods to move it if possible . . .

"A WILD BOAR stood under a tree and rubbed his tusks against the trunk. A Fox passing by asked him why he thus sharpened his teeth when there was no danger threatening from either huntsman or hound. He replied, "I do it advisedly; for it would never do to have to sharpen my weapons just at the time I ought to be using them." Aesop’s Fables

I also find the Wild Boar an interesting animal and the more I know about them is not a bad thing. I found some researches done but most want you to purchase their reports. Overall, most Europeans will not purposefully shoot adult Sows for a couple of reasons, coupled with a different culture and the fact hunting licenses are not handed out over the counter at Wallyworld. An extensive course is required. As such, hunting is taken more seriously as you’ve got a lot of time and effort put forth in obtaining the license. There’s good and bad points to any system, but customs and tradition make up a portion of the course, and hunters are generally held in higher regard than the general populace. An added benefit is the hunting community is a closer knit group as they’ve all been through the course and are expected to know both written and unwritten law. There is much more written on this subject in German, but I was able to find a few sources worth reading. I will also say that terrain, food, and climate will play a significant role in determining when and how often the Sows are bred. It has been well documented that the Eurasian leading Sow will determine when all the females in the group she is leading will be bred. If you continually break up the groups, then yes you will have Sows being bred at all times of the year having litters whenever, to include in the middle of winter. They learn fast, when a leading female has the group in a cornfield and shots ring out (shooting the smaller ones), she will think harder next time and be more cautious before leading the group out there again. I personally don’t think there is enough discipline in the average NA hunter to take a smaller pig when the BIG one is there also, so have serious reservations this would work there anyway. Like I said, different culture, and that’s also not always a bad thing . . . . links should work with cut & paste, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

http://www.informaworld.com/sm...l~content=a747930979
The study has been carried out on a wild boar Sus scrofa population in southern Tuscany (Italy). We aimed to estimate the trend in population structure and productivity of a harvested and high-density population. From 1990 to 1996 we examined 2773 harvested wild boars, assessing age, sex, and number of foetuses per females. We highlighted an increase of the proportions of yearling following a season with a peak of two-year individuals. Neither significant differences in mean foetus numbers among age classes nor among seasonal variations have been pointed out. Productivity peaks seemed to be related to peaks in sub-adult females in previous seasons, while food availability and harvest could have been responsible for fluctuations of sub-adult females. Fluctuations seemed more likely linked to an alternation of high and low frequency in the recruitment of females in the breeding pool than to individual differences in prolificity. Massive harvesting could bring sub-adult females and males to reproduction when adult individuals are scarce, incrementing the overall productivity, but young individuals are possibly more sensitive to environmental variations. We suggest that these studies should last longer and be strictly associated to a contemporary monitoring of trophic resources.

http://www3.interscience.wiley...ct?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Wild boars Sus scrofa have a social organization based on female groups that can include several generations of adults and offspring, and are thus likely matrilineal. However, little is known about the degree of relatedness between animals living in such groups or occupying the same core area of spatial activity. Also, polygynous male mating combined with matrilineal female groups can have strong influences on the genetic structure of populations. We used microsatellite genotyping combined with behavioral data to investigate the fine-scale population genetic structure and the mating system of wild boars in a multi-year study at Châteauvillain-Arc-en-Barrois (France). According to spatial genetic autocorrelation, females in spatial proximity were significantly inter-related. However, we found that numerous males contributed to the next generation, even within the same social group. Based on our genetic data and behavioral observations, wild boars in this population appear to have a low level of polygyny associated with matrilineal female groups, and infrequent multiple paternity. Mortality due to hunting may facilitate the breakup of what historically has been a more predominantly polygynous mating system, and likely accelerates the turnover of adults within the matrilineal groups.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/30q5j6232w090837/
Summary The investigations of wild boar populations were carried out in the territory of the Game Investigatory Centre Zielonka near Pozna . Age structure was estimated on the base of the mandibles collected from all individuals shot in a six year period. 503 of the mandibles were examined. In the spring before reproduction the population consisted of individuals (67%) that were reaching their first year of life. The average length of life of the individuals in the investigated population was only 1.5 years. The authors also presented the data concerning the demographic processes, reproduction and mortality rate.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/...e=1066&context=vpc14
Great Smoky Mountains National Park: Interesting reading, stated is that shooting is most effective in strictly the number of hog removals, however it does not make any distinction in type of hogs shot or targeted for shooting, i.e., first one that came along, or in other words more adults taken. From what I gather, they are only interested in numbers shot to reduce the overall figures, regardless of whether they are adults or not.
Comment: It is not stated what the reasoning is for the following statement, it may or may not be due to the shooting of adult Sows, however it is an unwritten law of the hunter in Eurasia that you do not target shooting the Sows but rather the piglets and yearlings. “The single most important reason is that there is no distinct rutting season and hogs can and do breed year-round. Fortyone percent of the piglets are born between March and May in the park compared to 100 percent in the Soviet Union (Sludskii 1956, Singer 1981).”

Although this does not address the structure of the Boar family, it addresses damage and is decent reading: http://schley.lu/images/storie...ateien/susdamage.pdf

From the UK: http://britishwildboar.org.uk/shootingboar.html Amongst more responsible hunters there is an unwritten code of practice that no sow that is clearly lactating or has dependent young will be shot. Stalkers should target the yearling boars and sows as they provide the best meat, but others will be taken if the landowner is suffering crop or ground damage.

A pretty good read, general description of most hunting in Europe: http://www.terrahunt.com/id13.html

From Italy, general info on Wild Boar: http://www.maremmaguide.com/wild-boar-facts-2.html

I don't have a "dog" in this particular fight, but do have some comments. I, myself, have had a hard time explaining the concept of the word "pest" to some people that don't believe a pest can be any bigger than a mouse. I hunt deer in an area where they are pests and the landowners don't care how, or how many, are killed. It is a tough concept for some to understand that the only difference between the deer, or hog in this case, and the mosquito is that they may be eaten. Killing all, or most, of the rest is acceptable and desired. Such is the case of the hog in Florida and Texas. I personally would like to go on a hunt where the hog is bayed and you go in and drag the hog out by the back legs. I have seen it done for relocation and would love to do it as a hunt, knife in hand for the eventual end. Just sounds like fun.

As for the sows and breeding, I have personally seen the effects of what Dom is saying. I spent months at a time on my grandparent's farm as a youth and teenager. They raised hogs for their own use. They did not usually sell any except to give away to someone more needy. I distinctly remember two summers when they had me working with the hogs. The sow had just had a litter and I remember asking my uncle why there were not more pigs around since there were probably 8-10 in the litter. He casually pointed at the biggest sow and said, "she won't allow it. The biggest boar breeds the head sow and that is all she allows." The next summer I went back and there were LOTS of piglets. I asked what had happened and the uncle told me that the big sow had died and the boar was still deciding which of the others was dominant so he bred them all. Needless to say, we ate lots of pork that year.

Anyway, that's my $.02.

Just for your info:

If, you for some reason would come to for example Sweden and hunt wild boar you can expect that if you shoot a sow they will charge you extra.

That is a penalty fee.

The sum can be up to $1400 at places where people with plenty of money come to hunt.

Here is an example of an outfitter that will charge you.


http://www.scandinavianprohunters.com/00122/00124/

To the far right it says:
Straffavgift på sugga över 80 kg
(4000:-)

meaning: penalty fee for sows over 80 kilos.
4000 SEK. that is in dollars equal to
4000/7.2= $556

However, money is perhaps not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is that you are poor hunter who can't see the difference between a boar and a sow or that you just don't give a shit and therefore are not welcome back....

And the reason why???

Yeah, try to come up with your own conclusion.......


Here's another thing to think about:

If you shoot some piglets from the sow in the corn field, do you think that she will understand that she better stay away from that place???

Perhaps could it lead to a change in behaviour.

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
Now I really don't have time to follow this thread.

Take Care.

That was 10 posts ago......but we understand.......delivering newspapers eats up a lot of your day.

Nonetheless, some good information being bandied about on this thread now.

Norton - that's got to be one of the nicest posts you've made on this forum.

KB

As someone recommended, someone needs to go hunting--and I VOLUNTEER!!!!!

I'll try and get out tomorrow or Friday, or Saturday, or all three, and post up what happens.

This has been a very interesting discussion to me, and I've enjoyed the reading provided by our European friends. There is a lot more there, but I agree, it's time to think about hunting. Unfortunately for me, I can't just go out and hunt pigs, so my thoughts are migrating toward the spring black bear hunt, which is late April, and May around here. Right now, the weather around here is in transition - to say it nicely. The ice and snow is going away rapidly, but the wind and rain is daily. Horizontal and swirleing rain and sleet is something to see and feel, and certainly not enjoyable for long, as an outdoor experience, day after day.

However, in the spring, this region has world class black bear hunting. There may be better places, but it can't be much better. I got some info lately from a long time local guy, where to go and see several bears in one evening. Longer days make it possible to go after work - can you believe it? Early in the season, the boars are mostly out on the beach, in the grass. So, I'm planning ahead. I'll give a report by seperate thread.

This is the year that I get a good black bear. This ain't catch and release, and no catch dogs involved. Last spring, when the run-off was low, a friend and I rode his four-wheeler up a watershed coming off a glacier, and we glassed the south facing mountain sides, and avalanche slides. It was incredable, the number of black bears we saw, but they were pretty safe. Unfortunately my hunting days on 45 +++ degree slopes, 2,500 to 4,000 ft elevation gain, may have come and gone. A nice flat grassy beach seems much more accessable to me nowadays.

Black bears are members of the pig family - eh?

KB

Norton: I am the alpha and the omega.

"little swedish smurf" kinda has a ring to it

For those who missed it the first time posted:

Wild hogs in Estonia. Click on the picture that pops up.

http://www.looduskalender.ee/en/node/2141

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
I am the alpha and the omega.

Is this a riddle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(letter) this requires clicking again on "did you mean", once inside wikipedia. There is an article on Alpha there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega

KB

quote:

Black bears are members of the pig family - eh?

Not really. Related to the Wolves.

And wolves are related to dogs. I get it, thus Hoonah Fjord Dog.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
I am the alpha and the omega.

Rather, you're middling at best.

I need to emphasize that here -- meaning the US -- particularly the South, we have no seasons and no limits on hogs. I have to caution against comparing hunting boar in Europe versus the US. Completely different climates, different population sizes, different pressures, etc., etc., etc. A sow in the US can have three litters per year, and there has been a population explosion. You can hardly compare the two radically different situations.

By the way, I killed a rather large sow last night......pictures and hunt report to follow.

yead it's a riddle...

here's a lead..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yG0QE9ce3U

quote:

By the way, I killed a rather large sow last night......pictures and hunt report to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneye:
yead it's a riddle...

here's a lead..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yG0QE9ce3U

Keep that unrelated shit off this forum, you douche with no location.



How was that, KB?

Unrelated shit?
Are you talking about yourself???

Location, location...it's all about location...
Did you ever find Usama by the way??

Unrelated???
I really loathe rap. Uhhhh aarrgg, gaggakk, barfff, wofff, wofff.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Goldeneyeid you ever find Usama by the way??

Goldeneye, please explain how this is relevant to the discussion at hand??

Hey whitworth, the smurf


got any dead sow pics?

I do and will post 'em up just a little later! I downloaded the pics a short while ago...... Standby!

standing by

Okay -- pics and report are up.......