quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
That video is a disgrace. The hunter is a disgrace to hunters and the PH letting it go on is disgraceful. That grand beast deserves the very best the hunter can give it and that "hunter" should've stuck to whatever it was he did for a living because it sure as hell wasn't being around rifles.

Lots of arm chair quarterbacking going on here. Several questions. First, anyone think that the hunter or Buzz wanted the situation to play out like that? Second, I wonder how many of the those expressing these vehement opinions above have ever stood within 50 yards of an elephant in the field? Third, surely no one trashing the hunter has ever made a bad shot on an animal in the field? This sort of second guessing makes me sick.

I was extremely impressed with Buzz's calm demeanor in such a bad situation. He remained calm and gave excellent direction and guidence to his already shaken client.
The "that was a strong elephant" comment allowed the client to save face. Very professional and how a PH should behave.

God knows I have fouled up some shots and I will not criticize the client for that. It is real easy to get excited and yank the trigger.

However, I would not put a video like that on the Hunting Report website or any website for that matter.

IMHO, Buzz clearly knew the elephant was going no where. They did not delay shooting again to put the elephant down. I don't fault him at all.

quote:

Well done... MY ASS ! Bad angles, no sticks, Guide recommending a spine shot, you can see the bullet strike in the right ham! If the guide had any respect for the animal he would have ended It and taken the clients rifle away! now I know why people join PETA !!

Self disclosure is a dangerous thing my friend!

Shit happens. The client paid his money, the PH did his job and nobody was injured. But why post the video?

At least no Lions over gutpiles were injured in the making of the video, right Steve?

MJines

You are 100% correct, lots of arm chair quarterbacking going on, and when a video is out like this, one can only expect that unfortunately.
I too am guilty as charged!

I watched it again this morning, and it is still a disgraceful situation. Oh yes I have made bad shots and decisions in the field--as we all have at time to time! One who does not ever make a mistake, bad shot in the field, either is a liar or don't do much shooting!

I am a shooter first-hunter second. The reason I hunt--is to shoot. Now don't take this wrong, I do not consider myself an expert field shot, just adequate. Also this does not mean I don't enjoy the hunt--but the shooting comes 1st and foremost. I shoot every week, sometimes two or three sessions a week, almost all big bore stuff. Before going on a hunt I do a lot of shooting with the firearms I am taking on the hunt. My first elephant hunt in 2001 I shot over 500 rounds of 458 Lott in the rifle I was taking. In fact I was nearly sick of shooting, but it paid off in the end.

What gets me about this particular situation is the fact that this fellow was not prepared in the least. His gun handling was pretty bad, it was obvious that he had done little work with the rifle. I know these things as I have a hunting buddy that is exactly the same way! Fortunately I have been working with him to improve, and he has improved 10 fold since we started hunting together 12 years ago. He still is not 100% ready to go, but much improved.

I made some ugly comments in the prior post about the fellow, and for this I am sorry. He has every right to hunt, all I ask is that he prepare better for said hunt and put in the work required to solve the problem at hand. If one does not do so, then one will reap what they sow.

I am far short on experience in this arena, having only taken 6 elephants in my career. The furthest I have ever shot an elephant is 50 yds--the closest was 9 yds. Any animal deserves ones best effort (except Baboon). I did not see the effort put into this shooting.

As for the video! God I would not have ever let that get out of my hands! It would have been destroyed immediately! I hate video. I have one video of my first elephant (not at my request). As it happens it was great, I did a good job, was proud, looked good, did everything right--but what if I had screwed the pooch? Nah, no video for me-least you guys get your hands on it!! Heh!

Michael

Michael

Does anyone in the forum actually believe Ike(the hunter) wanted to shoot that elephant 8 times? Or that Buzz wanted the bull to suffer?

The hunter is obviously an older gentlemen. I give Ike a lot of credit and respect...hunting Africa with a cane!

Those in this forum criticizing Ike really are missing the big picture. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This was probably Ike's life long dream to hunt elephant. And Buzz fulfilled that dream. Just look at the emotions of Ike and his hunting companion....the are extremely happy!

We should be patting Ike on the back joining him celebration of the hunt , and saluting him with some good grade Sake.

Unequivocally well done!!!


dale

Well said, Dale

As ozhunter would say, shit happens. Whilst none of us wants it to happen, it does and to the most competent of hunters as well. I don't think we should try and hide or shield others from what can go wrong when hunting - hunting is life and life is not all plain sailing. When telling a story, we should try and tell it as it was. Nobody wants to screw-up (unless they are a screw-up), but if it happens I say report it, so that others may learn and avoid the same mistakes. Well done to these hunters, for portraying life as it is - hard-hitting, pulse-racing, raw and unabridged, with all flaws exposed. I'm sorry that it didn't go to plan for the elephant's sake, but am glad that it ended without a total disaster.

Dave

Furthermore, though I agree that Ike appeared out of his element, it probably was indeed his lifelong dream and we should give him credit for fulfilling that dream. Maybe he could have done a bit more target practice beforehand!

Actually, I think the PH handled things very well, under the circumstances. He was always in control of the situation, and the elephant was never at risk of escaping wounded.

The shooting could have been better; we don't have all the information. For all we know, the solids were bad, although I agree it's highly unlikely.

If anything, I think better of both the hunter and the PH for posting the video.

I'm disappointed with what I see on that video. First, you have a client who obviously is out of his element, poor physical condition, no shooting experience and doesn't understand elephant shot angles. Why not put up a set of sticks to help him aim steadily? No excuse to not use them here, IMO. Second, why didn't he have such an obviously unprepared client take a heart shot? Or, if he was going to take a brain shot, work it out ahead of time to shoot the bull in the heart if it didn't go down from the brain shot? Contrary to some others on here, I do not think it a 'job well done', but rather a job poorly done.

The older gentleman is probably a fine fellow, but aside from fulfilling a dream of elephant hunting, there isn't a whole lot to feel good about in this one, IMO. As for the PH, well despite the fact that nobody got hurt and the bull didn't escape, I think (Monday Morning Quarterbacking here) he could have done a better job and ended it sooner. Either get the client up to where he could hit the damn thing, or end it himself. Proper communication beforehand could have saved this from going like it did.

There is NO reason this video should have been posted, and once it was, I'm disappointed that THR didn't take it down off their website.

I agree with most of what has been said here as far as the hunter being unprepared and that the video should never have seen the light of day. However, as hunters we should all think long and hard before calling for PH's to take over and end hunts that are obviously not a dangerous situation or a likely escape, even in the case of a "Grand Animal" as it has been described here. Does that mean that we can ignore that rule when it applies to other "Non-Grand" species? Lets just agree to call it what it is, an unfortunate and rare event, and not change the rules of the game.

horrible.

Ok everybody, how about this.

Buzz let this guy have a crack at the old bull knowing full well that if the animal tried to make a run for it he (Buzz) would then anchor him and that would be that.

I think most of the detractors here just do not realize the elite status Buzz has earned from years and years of proven success.

Trust me I have seen worse and have been the cause of some of it! Buy hey, my being not perfect is of course a cardinal sin here on the AR forums, so I'll just be quiet from here on (yeah right).

JW

Bottom line: The elephant once wounded did not get away. Infact he went nowhere. The client was ecstatic and the PH did an excellent job. The rest is irrelevant.

Mark

Posted 25 March 2009 22:05
horrible.


Please.....

I screwed the pooch on my first elephant pretty bad. But as we've said here stuff happens. I want to redeem myself and with the help of Buzzes video I plan on doing that some day.
Did any of you guys notice that the old man was shooting a Blaser? One thing you have to say about the old guy is that he knew how to work the action on that Blaser! Ike was using a cane he did the best he could and while it wasn't perfect he did accomplish his life long dream to hunt an elephant and did so with some major challenges to overcome. I say congratulations to Ike and Buzz. Bad shooting and all.

As far as comments concerning Buzz the PH. He has the experience to know when it's time to shoot. I was impressed that he didn't get excited and join in. I'd hunt with Buzz anytime.

I stand with Dale.

quote:

Bottom line: The elephant once wounded did not get away. Infact he went nowhere. The client was ecstatic and the PH did an excellent job. The rest is irrelevant.

+1

Seloushunter

I make no comment on the Ele other than to say I would prefer such a great animal to die as quickly and honorably as possible.

If you take a look at that website, you'll find a list of other animals shot. There's a single entry for Cape Buffalo, also shot by the same Hunter.

Take a close watch of the video and listen closely: It really sounds to me as though there are two shots taken...as if someone is backing the hunter up automatically. Further, near the end of the video, it appears that there are two guns coming "off ready", not just one.

Just a theory, but it seems the Buff was shot after the Ele...and it was decided that the buff should get a backup round each time.

(Although, I suppose the second report could be the bullet impact...doesn't really sound that way to me though.)

I agree with DaleW and Mark,the others they criticise the situation go to...

Petr

Now you know why Buzz and our elephant film spent the time we did on shot placement. This guy had seen neither I am quite sure. Buzz is a top elephant man, and if he declined to backup , I will not question his decision. Obviously he saw the bull was not leaving, and would have shot if that had been the case, but if ever there was a time to break up the fight like a good boxing referee would have done, this was it. The man should have done his range work before his safari. Give me a guy who can shoot a .375 over a guy who is afraid of his .458 Lott every time. Sorry end to a nice bull, but not blaming Buzz.

Guys- That was some of the most PISS POOR shooting I have seen in a long time. WELL DONE? BULLSHIT! That guy has no clue how to shoot a rifle and the PH should have known this and gotten the fool in a hellava lot closer. It was painful for me to watch! Bull shoulda stomped his ass into the ground! Made me wanna throw up just watching it.-Rob

He took the elephant with a Blaser 416Rem Or 375H&H.
It was a strange angle to take the first shot IMO.
But it turned out ok -
http://www.cmsafaris.com/summaries/ike-08.html

Rob,

If you watch all the way through I think you'll understand why Buzz had him shoot from the distance he did. It was the client's second safari looking for a bull ele. The client apparently had mobility problems. The bull was shootable and moving. There was a depression and very high grass between the hunting party and the bull. Had they moved closer they would have lost sight of the bull. I think Buzz risked a shot rather than have the bull move off and loose the chanse. As was said earlier, sticks and a heart shot might have been good ideas but I would be the last person to second guess Buzz Charlton in matters of ele hunting.

Brett

I think the poor guy was too excited, and fired his first shot before the elephant gave him a good angle for a side brain shot.

He then was surprised the elephant did not drop, which added to his confusion, making him misplace his following shots.

Buzz behaved impeccably, a sign of a true professional who knew what he was doing. The elephant wasn't going anywhere.

I have seen things like this happen with people who are exceptional shots.

In the field things sometimes do not turn out as planned, and I am afraid one has to accept it.

I think we are letting our emotions run free here, as none of us likes to see an animal suffer.

But, I also think we are using ourselves as humans for an example.

Nature is different, and I don't think I have ever shot an animal that has no wounds in him from previous fights.

Some seem to have recovered from what looked like very serious wounds.

To take this argument further. I have had non hunters complain about my bad shooting, when they see an animal I have shot, through the heart, which runs for a while before dropping dead.

Their concept of killing is instantaneous.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
eyedoc,
Like certain medical studies that can't be done because of the human misery involved, I do not think that a study of how long it takes bow-shot ele to expire will ever happen.
If you wish to do so and can find a place where it is legal, then you should be able to do it if you wish.
However, we do owe the animal a quick death, and a prolonged death or lost ele would be worse than never getting to hunt them, IMO.

and this is your idea of a quick death????

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think the poor guy was too excited, and fired his first shot before the elephant gave him a good angle for a side brain shot.

He then was surprised the elephant did not drop, which added to his confusion, making him misplace his following shots.
Saeed,



Buzz behaved impeccably, a sign of a true professional who knew what he was doing. The elephant wasn't going anywhere.

I have seen things like this happen with people who are exceptional shots.

In the field things sometimes do not turn out as planned, and I am afraid one has to accept it.

I think we are letting our emotions run free here, as none of us likes to see an animal suffer.

But, I also think we are using ourselves as humans for an example.

Nature is different, and I don't think I have ever shot an animal that has no wounds in him from previous fights.

Some seem to have recovered from what looked like very serious wounds.

To take this argument further. I have had non hunters complain about my bad shooting, when they see an animal I have shot, through the heart, which runs for a while before dropping dead.

Their concept of killing is instantaneous.

I agree with you and appreciate your ability to express yourself in a very fathomable fashion...thanks for your contributions

quote:

Saeed,
To take this argument further. I have had non hunters complain about my bad shooting, when they see an animal I have shot, through the heart, which runs for a while before dropping dead.

Their concept of killing is instantaneous.

Saeed,

However I have heard very good things about your shooting from experienced hunters. As well as mine(I was honored to get such a complement).

I hope your well my friend.

my very best to you

eric petersen

i'm still not healthy enough to hunt this year, i do think next year i will be able to go elephant hunting, i miss it dearly.

I am posting the following for Buzz Charlton, of Charlton McCallum Safaris. Buzz asked that I make the post on his behalf. It is cut and pasted from an email:

"Hi all. I have asked Mike to put a post here on my behalf so as to explain the entire event so that everyone knows the facts.

Ike and his charming wife Kate came hunting with me in Makuti. They are both elderly people with hip and other medical problems. It was Ikes life time dream to shoot an ele bull. After that he was to shoot a buff and he had bought Kate a buffalo as a wedding anniversary present also.

During our hunt they gained my utmost respect by walking many miles in the Makuti hills which I can assure you is no simple feat as a number of members of this forum will have personally experienced. I had Criton, my tracker, carry his gun as Ike was using a cane as was Kate. (To date I have had only 2 clients who over the duration of their hunt in Makuti have not asked the trackers to carry their rifle for them.)

We looked at over 40 ele bulls before Ike decided to take his bull. Despite seeing bigger bulls, Ike decided to take, in his own words, "this grand old bull". That’s exactly what the bull was too. I personally aged him at just under 50 years old - well above the average of the Zambezi valley which is under 30 years old. Ike’s deciding to take this bull instead of several younger bulls with bigger ivory told me a lot about Ike’s character.

We got to 35 yards from the bull when I decided that Ike should take a side brain shot. We could get no closer as Ike like me suffers from being vertically challenged, "a short fellow", and he would not have seen the bull as we would have had to go into a little gully that was between us and the bull which had 6 foot grass in it. As Ike was taking the shot which was a quartering away side brain shot the bull started to turn further away making it an even more acute angle.

With the benefit of hindsight we probably should have waited, however, in the heat of the moment Ike took the shot. He was close to the brain which rocked the bull. I decided then to back up and broke the front shoulder and put a hole through the elephant’s heart. I knew that the ele was going nowhere so I then let Ike finish off the bull. There is an argument that it is the PH’s responsibilty to put an animal out of its misery. Remember from the first shot fired to the time the ele was dead was probably 2 minutes. Had Ike taken a heart lung shot and been able to brag about a "one shot kill" the elephant would have run away screaming spewing blood out its trunk and eventually died up to 10 minutes late. I guide on average 30 elephant a season of which the majority are good 1 shot brain kills, with a possible back up shot in the back of the head when the ele is on the ground. However, situations such as Ike’s happen to the best hunters amongst us. Simply put if it has not happened to you, you have not hunted enough. No one wants to see any animal suffer least of all Ike or myself.

I, like the rest of our PHs, go out of our way not to back up clients. I for one would feel extremely unhappy if I traveled all the way to Alaska to shoot a bear and had my PH back up the instant that I shot. My policy on back up is only if (1) it is a dangerous situation, (2) I feel that the animal may escape, or (3) if my client asks me to, otherwise back shots are to be avoided. Watching many dangerous game shows on TV one has to ask who is actually hunting, the PH or the client!

After the ele, Ike shot a beautiful old dugga boy with a single shot from his Blaser .416. Kate then shot hers and Ike immediately backed up as that is what they decided between them. Once again huge credit goes to Ike and Kate who said to me that they wanted big bossed old bulls and had no interest in inches which is very refreshing from a PH’s point of view. In deciding to shoot a old elephant over heavier ivory young bulls and 2 old dugga boys over wide young bulls - they proved to me exactly what they were - very competent ethical hunters hunting for the "right reason" and not for glory or inches.

In summary I would like to say that it was an absolute pleasure hunting with Ike and Kate, who rate amongst my favourite clients to guide. Despite their age and physical challenges they hunted hard, earned good quality trophies on their own two feet in an ethical manner. The shooting on the ele was not good, there is room for improvement on that , however there are not many people that can claim a perfect shot on their first ele bull under hard circumstances! I really look forward to guiding Ike and Kate again this year when Ike will shoot a buff and a tuskless and Kate will look for her dream ele, "an older bull then Ikes".

Other points that were bought up that were not covered in the above. Ike was using a .416 Blaser. Kate had a .375 H&H . Everyone is entitled to hunt and fulfill a dream despite age, physical condition or any other challenges they may be experiencing and that is what a PH should be trying to achieve - helping a fellow hunter fulfill a dream. Since this is my first post on the forum I would like to say a big thanks to all who have hunted with us in the past and the many returning this year. I set off to the valley tomorrow to pick up my team of Criton, Tino and Eddy and then head into Chirisa where i will be doing a double trophy bull hunt back to back before going out with fellow AR member, Rob Jolly, for another trophy ele bull.

Buzz"

Thanks for posting that Mike.

Yes, thanks Mike - first hand accounts always put things in perspective. Good luck with your hunting Buzz and Rob.

Dave

Dear Buzz
Hope you have a great season and good luck on your upcoming hunt. I think your explaination was sound, and your insight into the situation sheds light on the particulars of the hunter and the ''on the ground'' situation. Certainly the shooting could have been more accurate, but demonizing your hunter as a bad guy is a bit over the top. Sometimes a situation due to cover ,and or nerves, gets messy. Thanks for the report. As we say in Texas ''Nuff said''

Thanks Buzz for providing the facts and thanks Mike for posting.
I have asked Buzz in the past why he didn't post on the forum and he has always said that he resisted because he felt that it would be like self promotion. In this particular case I know for a fact that it was the client who sadly decided to post his own video and it can be seen from the tone of Buzz's post that he now felt that he needed to provide the facts and give some support to his client.
It's good to know that some PH's support goes further than just the safari dates.
I look forward to my hunt with Buzz in six weeks time. I am now going out to do more shooting practice !!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Sometimes a situation due to cover ,and or nerves, gets messy. Thanks for the report. As we say in Texas ''Nuff said''

Perhaps,
but OUR (and I include ALL hunters) problem TODAY is that published video scenes such as these are being used by OUR numerous opponents to literally destroy the image of hunting. These are portrayed as "THE HORRIBLE AND CRUEL DEATH OF A MAGNIFICENT BEAST" and more importantly ALL hunting ends with this result.

Videos such as this are routinely used to convince legislators and MOST importantly the NEXT generation of ,particularly, urban voters that hunting has no place in a CIVILIZED world.

For ourselves and those hunters to follow us , this must be a prime consideration before publicly displaying images such as these.

While many wish to share the experience of the hunt, the risk to ALL hunters by such a video far outweighs any commercial or personal benefit of its public posting on ANY safari or hunting website.(Even if used as an example of "what not to do".)

I neither condemn Ike nor Buzz for either's desire to fulfill Ike's dream.
However,the decision to publicly "share" the video makes it OUR responsibility, whether or not WE asked for it.

The damage to US all by any such public airing is OUR concern and OUR responsibility as a community to make critical commentary thereon.

"Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picked, the one you'll know by."

Buzz/Folks- Thanks for the explanation, and have no doubts Ike is a nice guy. However, I'll stand by my statement that was some of the Worst shooting and gun handling and I'd personally be embarressed for the public to see it! Yup you anchored the bull for him and from then on it was nothing But Big Bore target practice on a Stunned Bull. Painful for me to watch and yes I did it a second time. Personally, given the clients physical issues, yup he should of passed on the " Grand Ol Bull" before engaging in that CF and insisted on getting closer or just passed. I've had PH's try to get me to take shots I wasnt comfortable with and you know what I said no! Lets get closer! When your a piss poor shot LACK of distance is your friend!
Sorry thats not a Well Done hunt and I call em as I see em. Yup stuff does go wrong, I'm the first to admit that, but its what you do about it that counts. Just keep chucking lead by a poor shot may not have been the right answer. Not looking for a big argument here just voicing my opinion! -Rob

Personally it sounds like everyone did their absolute best, even the ele..
I am not going to knock that an ounce.

Just how we choose to look at it I imagine, I have done as bad or worse in my time, and still considered it a successful hunt.
Yes I tried to improve my methods next time, but not everyone is the best shot, not everyone can hunt as hard, and not everyone has another chance.

The bull was old and his teeth were going to condemn him to a slow starvation some day regardless.
He went out strong, the hunter gave his best, and the PH did a bang up job giving an old hunter his dream.
Good show.
But no, I agree that we don't always need to share with the world everything that we have to do in a hunt.
Some things are indeed better kept in camp.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
eyedoc,
Like certain medical studies that can't be done because of the human misery involved, I do not think that a study of how long it takes bow-shot ele to expire will ever happen.
If you wish to do so and can find a place where it is legal, then you should be able to do it if you wish.
However, we do owe the animal a quick death, and a prolonged death or lost ele would be worse than never getting to hunt them, IMO.

and this is your idea of a quick death????

Certainly not as quick as a good brain shot, but about as quick as some heart-shot ele's and buff---2 1/2 minutes from first shot to final shot . It doesn't qualify as prolonged, IMHO. The deaths that take hours or days are the real cruelties/tragedies that we must attempt to avoid. And there are few among us who have been fortunate enough to never have had to trail a wounded animal for hours or days. Trailing/chasing a poorly wounded elephant is a task I am glad not to have had to perform, although running after a heart shot ele that is not going far is exciting.

And I stick with my opinion too. We should not try and hide what can go wrong in hunting, that is hunting and that is life. We have more important issues to deal with - canned hunting and other dodgy practices. This kind of unfortunate situation does arise in hunting, and anyone older than pre-school age with a brain must surely realize this? With that in mind, what are we trying to hide and from whom? This is what we do and what we have been doing forever. There is blood in hunting, and at times there is suffering, even if nobody wants there to be. Sure, it is not pleasant, but it is educational. Just this one instance has probably got some prospective elephant hunters thinking about how they will deal with their showdown when it comes about....

I think this has become somewhat emotional because it concerns an elephant. It may be easier for me because I don't differentiate between animals - suffering is the same, whether it be that of an elephant or a rabbit. Sure, maybe elephants have a higher intellectual capacity or whatever, but all animals think and all animals feel.

I have seen much worse than this. I have tracked a gut-shot waterbuck for days and never found it. Tell me which is worse? I would have had no problem going public with the wounded waterbuck story either, or any of the other times I have witnessed or been responsible for hunting/shooting blunders.

The plus side to this hunt is the fact that the hunters decided to take that really old bull. If more guys were doing this and leaving the younger bulls to grow to their potential, maybe ivory quality would start improving in years to come.

Dave

Afterthought: Say for example this bull had been left to eventually die of old age. By old age, I mean lose its ability to feed and starve to death. Which would be the crueler way to go? A couple of minutes of being on the receiving end of Ike's bucking Blaser, or weeks of agony as it slowly wasted away...

We should persevere in our efforts to educate the general public, not try and cover up negative aspects of our tradition that are well known by most in any case. Everyone wants to kill everything with one shot, of course, but it just doesn't always happen that way, does it?

Dave