The recent thread on the new Rigby Rifle Company on the double rifle forum (see here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...804/m/6741051411/p/1) got me thinking about individual preferences for African DG hunting.

So gentlemen, (and ladies) a few questions.......

How many of you own and use a double rifle for your DG hunting and how many use bolt actions?

In either case, what's your calibre and make of choice and why?

In the case ofthe guys who use doubles, how quickly do you think you can get two aimed and accurate shots off?

Thanks in advance!

I never liked side by side doubles shotguns, as I could never shoot them well. Don't as me why, as I have no idea, despite the fact that with a single barrel - whether single shot or semi-auto, I am a reasonably good shot.

I can shoot over-under shotguns very well.

I get to shoot doubles quite a bit here in our shooting range, as people bring them in, and generally they ask me to sight them in for them.

But, I don't own even one double rifle.

For me, a rifle has to be accurate, and seeing how difficult it is for both barrels to print to the same point of impact, I think that is another reason I have stayed away from doubles.

So I use a bolt action rifle for all my hunting, and they all have scopes. No open sights.

I know an open sight is supposed to be easier to use at close range. But, again, my own thought is if I was in a situation where an extremely close shot has to be taken to save my skin, it would be a shotgun style point and shoot instance, rather than an aimed shot.

Again, having shot shotguns extensively, I am hoping that might save me in this sort of situation.

Ultimately, I find by using a scoped, accurate rifle, I can place my first shot reasonably well, that a dangerous follow up has not occured in my hunts so far.

A scoped bolt action .375 H&H on my one dangerous game hunt thus far. I just sold it and will be purchasing a Ruger African in .375 Ruger. I'm also planning to buy a Heym .450NE some time in the hopefully not too distant future! I'm guessing this will round out my dangerous game arsenal for quite some time. Maybe I'll pull the trigger on a large bore bolt action some time, but not in the forseeable future.

Brett

I think doubles would be better for elephant and for follow-up on wounded dangerous game. I have hunted with each, and am now in Africa with two bolt-actions--375H&H and 458 win mag.

I have taken both a double and a bolt rifle on DG safaris and like the plan of letting one of the trackers carry one of the two.

However,it does not always work out that I have the right rifle in hand at the right time. Usually the tracker carrying the other rifle is off to the side or up front looking for tracks.

Within 15 minutes of leaving the landrover on my first buffalo hunt we were charged in tall grass and I had a scoped 458 in hand. As Saeed mentioned I just shot it like a shotgun and do not even recall looking through the scope. The tracker carrying my double at the time scramed but there was not enough time to swap guns anyway.

What I learned from that is to let the tracker carry the scoped bolt rifle and keep the double in my hands.

With the possible exception of elephant hunting, I think the bolt rifle is more practical. However the double rifle is far more fun - both to carry and to shoot. Adding a low powered QD scope to the double makes it nearly as practical as a scoped bolt rifle from the standpoint of old eyes being able to see sights.

If the DG is lion or leopard I would opt for the bolt rifle unless following up a wounded one.

To the question Shakari posed, I believe I can get two accurate shots off with my 450/400 Searcy within 2 seconds. With the 470 - maybe closer to 3 seconds.

heym 375 shoots wonderful. feels great. suprizingly low felt recoil.for what it's built for very good accuracy. and gives me a woody very time i squeez the trigger

I have used both a DR and a bolt in Africa on dangerous game. For me the doubles only virtue is the quick second shot, and I love DR's. Ask any PH, the quick second shot can be a curse or a blessing, a lot of clients will not make the first one count if mentally they know they have that quick second shot, it's a mental thing for a lot of hunters. That's one reason my grandfather in his wisdom years ago would not get me a semi-auto shotgun, not even a pump, he got me a single shot and some years squirrel hunting as a kid I never missed one. For me the DR does not handle and point any better than my custom 458wm with 22inch barrels which weighs 9lb's. The bolt rifle is hands down a more rugged rifle, you can drop them, run over them on occasions with a truck, knock them over, etc. etc., you can't do that with a DR and expect it to function 100% most of the time they need more T.L.C. If you have to work on a rifle in the field the bolt is much easier in most cases. So my conclusion is with the exception of ele hunting the bolt is a more practical all around unit. If you have to put a scope on a DR, well it's like "tits on a boar" IMO. Bolts look and handle OK with a scope, DR's don't, then again I personally prefer no scopes on any rifle over 375.

Either is good if the hunter spends a lot of time at shoots such as ours at BASA before the hunt.

We consistantly see both types scoring near the top, but right now a guy with a straight pull Blaser is the regular winner.

I remember reading somewhere a seasoned PH that said something about getting nervous whenever a client arrived with a nice shiny new double?

quote:

gives me a woody very time i squeez the trigger

No wonder you go shooting and dry fire so much!!!
This is a GREAT thread.
Peter.

A Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby is what I use. It wears a Leupold 1.5x5 scope. I didn't have any problem finding a charging elephant in the scope and dropping him at 12 yds. with that combination. I'm much like Saeed. I shoot shotguns alot and I'm a decent shot with an o/u or a pump or autoloader, but can't shoot a sxs worth a hoot. I'm also particular about accuracy and a gun that only shoots 2" groups at 50 yds. doesn't appeal to me.

Of course there is also the cost to consider. If I had alot more $$ maybe I could justify $10-20K for a specialized gun only to be used on DG at short range. Unfortunately, I'm not in that situation so I'll stick with my bolt guns.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari: So gentlemen, (and ladies) a few questions.......

How many of you own and use a double rifle for your DG hunting and how many use bolt actions?

In either case, what's your calibre and make of choice and why?

In the case ofthe guys who use doubles, how quickly do you think you can get two aimed and accurate shots off?

Thanks in advance!

My first DG hunt I used a Ruger No 1. This October I am hunting elephant and buffalo I will bring a double.

470 Nitro in a Krieghoff. The Krieghoff is well made and affordable (like several others). Also I was looking for a used double and being left handed the choices were limited. The 470 has been killing elephants since the early 1900's and that is good enogh for me.

Starting from my waist, I can shoulder the rifle and fire two shots within 3" (sometimes within 2") of each other at 25 yards in 3.5 seconds. Same scenario with a reload and firing four shots takes 10 seconds. This is my first double and I am still learning how to shoot the rifle.

Bolt gun for me.

I spend 90% of my time with shotguns at the clays or skeet range. I have tried many of the doubles out there - Model 21, SKB, Purdey, etc. - and cannot shoot as well as with my 870 pump or a semi auto. I do not shoot the O/U very well as I shoot the second shoot too quick and miss frequently.

I prefer the movement of the bolt and knowing I have 3 or 4 shots. With guns that shoot a single projectile vs. multiple - the rule for my and my sons is "shoot until it quits moving". Sometimes that means emptying the gun and reloading but dead animals need to stay dead.

Also, in my experience, the first shot is the most important. Make that one in the right spot and all else is not important.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari: So gentlemen, (and ladies) a few questions.......

How many of you own and use a double rifle for your DG hunting and how many use bolt actions?

In either case, what's your calibre and make of choice and why?

In the case ofthe guys who use doubles, how quickly do you think you can get two aimed and accurate shots off?

Thanks in advance!

My first DG hunt I used a Ruger No 1. This October I am hunting elephant and buffalo I will bring a double.

470 Nitro in a Krieghoff. The Krieghoff is well made and affordable (like several others). Also I was looking for a used double and being left handed the choices were limited. The 470 has been killing elephants since the early 1900's and that is good enogh for me.

Starting from my waist, I can shoulder the rifle and fire two shots within 3" (sometimes within 2") of each other at 25 yards in 3.5 seconds. Same scenario with a reload and firing four shots takes 10 seconds. This is my first double and I am still learning how to shoot the rifle.

Mike,
THat is some seriously good speed and accuracy. You should do great.

A sobering thought for me was when I heard a lion can run the 100 meters in about 4 seconds (uninjured). So you can get two shots at him!!!
I would like to think that the PH would be shooting as well so that would be 4 shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:

I remember reading somewhere a seasoned PH that said something about getting nervous whenever a client arrived with a nice shiny new double?

Stephen,

A bit off topic but you reminded me of something similar in principal to your point. A few years ago I used to guide Scuba Divers who wanted to do deep dives, for a skipper freind of mine, as this was one of my specialties. On more than one occasion I would get interviewed by the "client" while on the way to the mark as to my credentials as a divemaster/instructor, only to turn around and then see the guy pull a load of plastic wrapped kit out of a shiny new bag... Of the three occasions this happened I had to "escort" two of the guys back to the surface from 40m+ as an aid in their own longevity. Needless to say they were fairly gratefull when back on the boat. Their paper work was all in order but that counts for nothing until you actually saw them in the water. Like the guy that can shoot .5" MOA off the bench but goes to bits when looking through the scope at a game animal.

I now make a habit of winding my guides up over this point be it shooting or fishing. I leave whatever I can in plastic wrappers and always make a show of taking it out of my bag!! I was teasing my PH in May (he knows me well now) that he needed to bring an umbrella on our hunt to make sure the nice wood on my rifle didn't get wet and by the way could we avoid anywhere which had thorns as I didn't want to scratch the wood... Given the hunting was hard I had to get my sport in any way I could!!

Back on the thread I was talking to Steve yesterday and would like one day to hunt DG with a classic double in 450-400 but backed up with a scoped 375H+H for shooting bait or longer range painsgame. I'm never specific about what I'm hunting while walking just preferring to take my chances as they arise, however if you are on the tracks of something special then I will occasionally refrain from shooting incidentals unless they are pig shaped in which case I can't help myself!! It would always be the scoped rifle left in the hands of the tracker though.

Rgds,
FB

Stephen,

You're right about clients arriving with brand new rifles...... it's always a bit of a worry and you'd be suprised how often it happens. Come to that, you'd also be suprised how often there's something wrong with the new rifles when they arrive in camp.

Over the years, I've seen everything from the wrong scope mounts to a cracked stock.

More generally,

One of the main reasons I asked the questions is that whilst I've always been a bolt action man, and truly love my .500, I've also always been a big fan of the round action doubles. Sadly, they're always sooooo expensive, they've been out of my range.

However, the idea of this new round action double that the new Rigby company will be offering for UKP15K is tempting me deeply.

Sure, it's still a lot of money for a rifle, but it's probably the only chance I'll ever have of affording any round action double and the fact it'll be an English round action double makes it even more tempting.

So, forgive me if I ask a lot of double related questions in the next few months........ it'll probably be because I'm trying to convince myself I need one!

Grew up with SxS shotguns and find the same reflexive (almost instinctual now) target acquisition with my DRs.

DR's were not in my possession until into my thirties.

When most of my mentors and peers were carrying lever actions in Texas I chose bolts, mostly for the perceived longer range advantage.

Bolts and the DRs have served me well, accounting for the majority of my rifle hunting: US, Africa, Canada,NZ.

However,my current affinity for a second choice,
after DR's,
for close quick work now falls to my 1895 in 405 and my 71 in 50AK.

My mentors and peers now feel vindicated I guess.

As much as I love my bolts for long-range precision,
they can't hold a candle to the big levers in fast and accurate follow-up shots number 3,4,5 at 150 yds and less
-at least in my hands.

I know this is "off-point" from this threads DR or Bolt question.

It is however my experience and my choice if a DR is not to be used;
a lever at "DG range" beats a bolt in follow-ups-again, at least in my hands.

Steve,

Life is often overcomplicated,

If you don't own one but you can then the decision is made. This should not preclude from much manly bater round the campfire and further discussion on the minutae of the decision just because it is already made...

Am I getting close?


FB

I reckon you are mate.......

I'm certainly very interested and it's gonna a lot more 'interesting' once I've seen one in the flesh........

Those of you that read my account of a buffalo charge back in June will recall that I shot a charging buff with the third shot cycled through my bolt action 458. With a double, I would have had the gun broken open, reloading when the charge began. Maybe that's a freak occurrence, but it was nice to have a third and fourth bullet in the magizine, ready to go.

My DG battery consists of a 375 and a 458 with scopes that dial down to 1.5 and 1.25, respectively. They are high-end production guns ("Poor mans custom rifle") with fine european scopes. About 5 grand in the whole kit. Noone ever admires them upon arrival in camp, but they usually get a comment or two before the end of the hunt. As long as they shoot and handle well, they'll be making the trip over.

I shoot both a .470 double and a .416 with a scope. I love the double for elephant, buff too, but know that with the exception of elephant, the scoped bolt is the more effective choice for the majority of the hunting I do there.

I shoot bolt rifles for all my game. however, I would love to own another good double and hunt with it, however, I probably will never buy another one since at my age they are just too costly.

I have hunted both buffalo and elephant with both doubles and scoped bolt rifles. They included 465 and 470 doubles and bolt rifles in 375 H&H, 458 Win and 458 Lott. I am very comfortable with either action type on either species. If I was trophy hunting for a big drop horned bull buff, I would carry one of my scoped bolt rifles most likely the 375 H&H. I would have a tracker carrying one of the big doubles if a folow up was required. For elephant, I really enjoy getting close with the big open sighted double. On a follow up, again the double would be my go to gun.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
So, forgive me if I ask a lot of double related questions in the next few months........ it'll probably be because I'm trying to convince myself I need one!

Can some one break out the Rx pad and write Steve a perscription???

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I shoot both a .470 double and a .416 with a scope. I love the double for elephant, buff too, but know that with the exception of elephant, the scoped bolt is the more effective choice for the majority of the hunting I do there.

As Dave and others have posted, the big double is tops for elephant, but for all else a scoped medium bore bolt is the better tool, more so with a low power variable scope that gets down to 1 or 1.5x, even more so in QD mounts.

I prefer the 375H&H for the bolt because it is the ultimate all rounder.

I use a double on buff because it is more fun to me, but that doesn't make it the better tool for buff, just more fun.

A well regulated and loaded scoped 375 double with claw or similar scope mounts and the same low powered variable as the medium bore rifle might be the best tool for everything but eles. Since I like doubles, I am going to give it a try.

JPK

I have always used doubles when hunting in Africa.
I have taken buff and elephant with a 450 No2, a 450/400 3 1/4", and a 9,3x74R. Also lion with the 450/400.
I have taken plains game with the 2 big bores, but the 9,3 was my main PG rifle.

I have only taken doubles to Africa, but I did shoot a few animals with the wifes 308.

I have never had to pass up a shot on an African animal because I was carrying a double rifle, even if it was ironsighted only.
I have scopes on the 9,3 and the 400.
I have never used a scope on an elephant, used it on the 9,3 for one, and the lion was taken with the scope on the 400.

How fast can I shoot 2 aimed shots....

On video... Booom,Booom. That fast, both hits.

I shoot a Wiebe .416 Rigby bolt action. I don't own a double rifle but I would love to shoot one. I think after this much time I'll probably stick to bolt actions. This isn't necessarily a comment on bolts being better but I have just shot them so much more. I also like the accuracy factor of shooting through a scope. MMP

Both may DG trophies (Buffaloes) were taken with bolt rifles: model 70 in 375H&H and CZ in 404Jeff. However I have taken plainsgame with a scoped double. I find that close up the double feels wonderful, but as distance begins to extend to 100yds I just feel more confident with that single barrel sticking out there. I simply feel that I know where that bullet is going with a bolt.
Next DG hunt is in 2011. I plan to take the 404 or a 458WM. On the other hand there is that 470 Krieghoff I inhereted.

Steve,

I've used both on DG.

I have a William Douglas 470 English boxlock double that I dearly love. It fits me, it weighs only 9lb and is perfectly balanced. It has a case colored receiver, lovely wood, Purdy third bite, bevertail f.e., modest engraving.

That rifle is easy to cary all day in the heat. It also feels like my favorite qual/dove/chucker gun. It just feels "right". It is accurate at close range.

I have a confident, happy feeling when I carry it. If I were a PH I wouldn't be without it.

Idea: buy the double and if you don't like it sell it. They hold their value fairly well.

Best regards;
Brett

Interesting question ..... I own a few double rifles, & most always bird hunt with my SXS shotguns, but when I rifle hunt, DG or not, I always go to my bolt rifles with scopes. Before long, I'll take a double rifle to Africa, & may end up like Tony, & start using only SXS rifles; but so far only bolt actions.

I own both, but the allure of hunting ele and buff with an open sighted DR is what I find appealing about owning the Chapuis..
My next purchase is going to be a custom 416 Rigby to round out the arsenal.

I have a Searcy .470 Nitro that I absolutely love to shoot and a Kimber of Oregon .416 Rigby bolt action that I also love to shoot. I agree with others that the bolt action with a low powered scope is more practical, but not nearly as much fun to shoot as the double. I've lost some shots on buff when I have had the double in my hands and the shot was a bit further than I was totally comfortable with and would have been a lay-up with the bolt, which was in a trackers hands, but that's hunting.
Also I too have had trouble shooting a double shot gun, where I am a very good shot with an o/u or the right pump or semi auto. I believe that many doubles simply have a drop that doesn't fit me well and I end up looking down at the rib and overshooting most of the time. If you shoot well with say a Browning superpose o/u or a Browning BPS, or a Remington 870 and you have trouble with a double, that may well be the problem. It is for me.

I too, own and have used both in Africa. Steve, maybe a poll would have helped with this thread.

UEG

I did think about a poll but I really want to know other things such as make and how fast and accurate most people can shoot their doubles. With a poll, I'm not sure how much opinion I'd get........... and if I'm thinking about spending UKP15K on a bespoke English Rigby double from the new company, I need to be sure I'm doing the right thing.

If I spend that much money and then regret it, my Mrs will string me up by my nuts!

I am 75 years of age and have been a gunsmith for over 55years, attended Trinidad State. I have taken 8 safaris to Africa. Bought my first double rifle in 1952,a Cogswell & Harrison 450/400. Always dreamed of hunting Africa with a double. Over the years I have owned and shot several of varying calibers. I have always admired double shotguns and have tried for years to shoot them well to no avail. I have owned Win 21's which I greatly admire and also Parkers which I also admire. But i shoot them poorly on game. Over unders I do well with both on clay birds,and real birds. My current shotguns are a Marocchi O/U,Beretta ASE O/U and a Browning Lightening 28ga Grade VI O/U. I regularly limit out on the O/U's with no problem but no matter how hard I try I cannot shoot the SxS's well. Almost all my African game has been taken with scoped bolt guns. Took one elephant with a 470 Merkel but recieved no more satisfaction than with a Bolt Gun so took the next with a Bolt Gun. I am glad I hunted Africa a couple of times with a double rifle but in all honesty it gave me no greater feeling of satisfaction or safety than the bolt guns do. While I have probably made my last trip to Africa if I were fortunate enough to return once more it would be with a Bolt Gun. I have ,personally, worked the Double rifle requirement out of my system. I have always felt it was more romantic notion of Africa than a requirement for satisfaction of the hunt. That of course is a VERY personal opinion and I'm sure is not shared by all here.

In my case it is all economic and dare I say practicality in the same sentence as rifles. I basically can't afford to hunt what I want and own double rifles too.

I may have written this before but anyway Sadie and I were at the SCI convention a few years ago when I had a little more disposable income than I do today. We stopped at the Chapuis booth and I talked to the salesperson, fiddled with a couple of the rifles, looked at the price and I said to myself "this could happen". Sadie could see were my mind was going and in her all so practical manner reminded me that the purchase of that double would hold up the next safari by a year at least. I thanked the saleman for his time and I've never even remotely considered a double since then.

If a double enhances your enjoyment of the hunt and you can afford one and a safari you should buy one. On the other hand you absolutely DO NOT need a double to hunt buffalo or elephant and in fact for the novice or most of the more experienced safari hunters they are far better off with a bolt rifle that they can shoot and afford to shoot.

Mark

Shakari,

Have used a bolt rifle on the one DG trip and two PG trips in the past. Working with a Searcy that I've had for some years to arrange a red dot sight so I can see the sights.

If I can figure out how to afford to hunt with you in the next couple of years, I'll bring one of each. (Probably a .458 AR and a .470 NE after checking to make sure that a rental rifle is available should my ammo not make it.)

For me a double is faster, but more limited in distance due to the sight equipment difference.

Mark hit the nail on the head. The good thing is that there are no wrong choices, only personal ones. If a 36 inch buff with the two pipe would mean more than a 40 inch bull taken with a scoped magazine rifle to a particular hunter, I say there is nothing wrong with that. You do not need a double for dangerous game..but they sure feel nice over your shoulder, don't they!
I will tell you this, I feel very comfortable saying that at least 30 to 40% of Chifuti Safaris clients coming over this year for buffalo had a double rifle in the battery. For elephant I bet is close to 60%..A HUGE rise in the number of double guns in camp than what we saw even 10 years ago in Africa.
Would my fellow operators and booking agents agree? I would like to hear what your best guess is of double vs. bolt for DG you guys see these days.

Dave,

That just goes to show you how much better heeled Chifuti clients are than poor old Adam Clements Safari Trackers client.

Mark

For what its worth - here it goes; I have lived my life since a young boy dreaming of hunting in Africa and especially hunting for DG. I have ben fortunate enough to have gone on two African safaris. The first for plains game and the second Cape Buffalo & plains game. Both hunts were with bolt action rifles - Buffalo with 375 H&H with a Leupold 1.5 to 5 scope in VX III. For both safaris I practiced and trained very much and shot as I would have on the hunt ( both off hand and on sticks ) Never missed an animal and all were killed cleanly and most with one shot. The Buffalo with one shot. I believe that it is more important to train well & shoot a lot to be totally familiar with your rifle than what you shoot it with as long as it is enough gun to kill ceanly with a well placed shot. That said I will get more to the point : I have always wanted a DR & may get one but if it means that I will not be able to afford to shoot it a lot than I will stick with a bolt gun of good quality that I know well. It is harder to shoot a DR with open sights than a low powered scope. In my opinion a low powered scope is as quick or quicker than open sights unless the animal is very,very close and then as some have already said it is down to point & shoot anyway. An accurate first shot is more important than a quick backup that may not have been needed if the first shot did what it was supposed to. I still dream about & want a DR but will use a bolt gun if I need to for elephant if I ever get the chance to hunt one. If I do I will go up in caliber to something equivilant to one of the double stopping calibers. If I do whatever gun I use I will make sure I am able to train with to a point I am totally confident with the rifle and if its a DR or bolt gun that I will be able to get off
a rapid & ACCURATE second shot.

I have to admit that looking at iron sights is no longer my cup of tea. When I started hunting Deer with my old Marlin 336 30-30, I could knock the center out of the target at 40 yards. Now I cannot see both rear and front sights at the same time. I used a scoped Winchester Classic Safari in .416 Rem, loaded with North Fork 370 grain softs and flat nosed solids, for Buffalo in the Selous, and will the next time. I can shoot my classic old O/U Winchester 101 like a house afire at quail and doves, and my O/U Browning Citori at Skeet and Trap, but the S/S seems to confuse my eyes or brain for some reason. Good shooting.