Double rifles are an African experience of lore for sure. Truly most double rifles found homes in indian hunting, where tigers were notoriously unforgiving. With the front sight bead the size of a monkeys fist, and the balance of a feather, one could easily point and get on target quickly. The crisp pull of the trigger yielding an overwhelming blast, your finger instinctively staying on trigger until the sights settle and then hit it again. Your prey falls to the awesomeness of your rifle in a heap of dust sliding to a halt just feet in front of you.

In reality, the workhouse of African hunting is and will most likely continue to be the plain 'ole bolt rifle. The addition of a scope can help with low light sighting. Speaking of sighting, it is definitely easier to adjust loads and re-sight the bolt gun. Easier to clean in the field than a box lock, and esier to find a condom to fit the muzzle (get tired of the looks at the drug store buying those "magnum condoms").

Yup, it looks like the bolt wins hand down for practicality, but some times there is just something to be said for style.

John

Steve: Any poll posted here on AR ALWAYS HAS SOLICITED AND UNSOLICITED COMMENTS!

Wow, talk about a topic that can get things roiled up in a hurry sitting around a campfire! I have both magazine and double rifles, so I claim some impartiality in the matter. To me, the true purpose of double rifle is having 2 ultra-reliable shots in self-defensive situations. For that asset, you give up something in accuracy and range. I would think the ideal environment for a double would be in the hands of a PH, who doesn't have to shoot far, where accuracy is more than sufficient, and he can count on 2 large-caliber shots to defuse a potentially nasty situation. But there's no denying the tradition and "coolness" factor of hunting with a double. If you do pick a double, think of it like bowhunting, where you may not be able to take some animals in conditions that other hunters might, but your aim is to stalk close enough to the game where the disadvantages of a double don't matter. The one perfect game animal for doubles would be the Elephant, but then even a hunter using a large caliber magazine rifle is certainly not at any significant disadvantage. Hunt with a double because that's what YOU want to do, but if you think your are on par, or have an advantage over, hunting with a scoped magazine rifle, I think you're just kidding yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
UEG

I did think about a poll but I really want to know other things such as make and how fast and accurate most people can shoot their doubles. With a poll, I'm not sure how much opinion I'd get........... and if I'm thinking about spending UKP15K on a bespoke English Rigby double from the new company, I need to be sure I'm doing the right thing.

If I spend that much money and then regret it, my Mrs will string me up by my nuts!

Steve I'd ask around since I'm far from an expert, but the Heym PH seems to be an awefuly nice custom fitted DR for similar money. And you know what they are producing. Who knows about the "new" Rigby?

Brett

First let me say I love double rifles, have owned a bunch and just acquired two Heyms. I have hunted elephant and buffalo with a double and a bolt gun. In my humble opinion the only place a double fills a need is in the hands of a PH. I will use a double next year on an elephant because I want to. It will have a red dot optical sight so these old eyes can see to use it. I just bought a Dakota model 10 single shot in 9.3x74 because I thought it was fun to use not functional. I believe in the vast majority of cases double rifles are a love affair. We love them!!!! Best reason I can think of to use them but not because they are more suitable for the client hunter.

I have had the lucky experience of killing two tuskless last month with a 470 double. It was grand, BUT...
When I go back for a trophy bull hunt in a couple of years, I'll probably carry my 416 Rigby bolt. I just plain shoot it a lot better.
By practice every couple days or so, I could keep two rounds with the double on about 4" at 25 yards. I'm lucky and can shoot a 470 in my back yard. My second ele wasn't shot as well as I'd have liked. A couple days later I asked my PH for some practice shots at paper. Bottom line was that after not shooting as frequently on my hunt as I had been in practice, my offhand shots at 25 yards had opened up to about 8"! The bolt gun shot just where I pointed it.
We could have all kinds of discussion about stock fit and so on. The fact is I have fired so many rounds through turnbolts, it's just a lot more natural for me. I won't negate the lifetime experience of killing elephant with a double. So much more style and romance. I'm really glad to have done that. Now its time to get serious with what I am more proficient with.
In my opinion, shoot what you want to, but when the rubber meets the road, shoot what you shoot best.

I've used the following bolt calibers on DG over the years:
.375H&H Elephant & Hippo
.416Rem Cape Buff & Hippo
.458Lott Lion & Cape Buff
Dart Gun Rhino
.300wm Leopard & Croc

All riles carried Leupold scopes in QR mounts. I have considered purchasing a DR twice during my safari career, but decided against it on both occasions.

I like to shoot period... Yes I own a double a boomer in 450#2 and a 375H&H Kimber Caprivi... I can shoot the double out to 100yds.. But I prefer to shoot it up close and personal... The Kimber is deadly and has a trigger pull of 2.5 lbs.
Shooting is the game and I'm in it 100%...
Mike

When you ask how quickly one can shoot two shots, one question is: How accurately? There is a tradeoff between speed and accuracy.

In the rapid fire stages of NRA HighPower, the old (30-06) cadences for accurate shooting were 3.5 seconds between shots for a bolt rifle and 2.5 for an M1 Garand.

Based on this, and my hunting (which has only been with a bolt rifle), I would estimate about 2 seconds between shots with a double and 3 seconds with a bolt rifle. You don't have to shoot as accurately as in NRA HighPower but the target is moving. I think the limiting factor with a double, or a semi, is recovering from the first shot's recoil and getting back on target.

My hunting of DG has been with a Winchester M70 with 22" barrel in .458WM. I can operate it instinctively. I would like to try hunting with a double but would have to practice a lot to acquire the same degree of instinct.

One nice thing about my old bolt rifle is I don't feel so bad about dinging it up, as I have less than $1000 in it. After my Zim trip last year there is a spot where the bluing on the barrel is worn from carrying in the land cruiser rack, some bluing worn off the floorplate from carrying against my sweaty shirt all day, and some dings in the wood.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The recent thread on the new Rigby Rifle Company on the double rifle forum (see here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...804/m/6741051411/p/1) got me thinking about individual preferences for African DG hunting.

So gentlemen, (and ladies) a few questions.......

How many of you own and use a double rifle for your DG hunting and how many use bolt actions?

In either case, what's your calibre and make of choice and why?

In the case ofthe guys who use doubles, how quickly do you think you can get two aimed and accurate shots off?

Thanks in advance!

Steve:

I have used double rifles for the past 30 yrs - my first was a Rigby 450 straight which I later sold and replaced with a
.500 (3") - replacing the 375 Mod. 70 for a double for DG follow ups has never been regretted. I did replace the Win.
with an identical calibre by Churchill in the hopefully and unlikely event that something went wrong with the double
(has not happened so far).
My reason for the preference of a double was instigated by several factors: no question of mis-feeds, sticking bolt
or misfires.
With a double you have 2 guaranteed shots - misfires are pretty uncommon nowadays thanks to the availability of
fresh ammo, though a misfire is not to be excluded (on any calibre for that matter).
The speed on getting the shots off depends entirely on the shooter, his build, balance of the rifle, etc. - You know as
well as I that the FIRST is the most important of two, three or more shots. So speed can at times be immaterial on
a charge at close quarters.
On choices of calibre I decided the .500 produces sufficient ft/lbs of energy to knock the stuffing out of anything that
moves - even if it is not the desired brain shot - and is not as wicked on recoil as some people make it out to be.
Last but not least the double rifle, IMO was designed to be a working gun and not a "sporting rifle" though nothing prevents
it to be used as such even though it has its limitations on distance and accuracy at excessive distances.
...Of course, you know all this you old fox!

In good hunting and keep well.

Thanks to all of you guys,

Indy, I meant how fast can people accurately place shots. By accurate, I mean accurate enough to place two shots at close range in the circumference of something like a tennis ball or stop a charging big ' ugly.

Kibokolambogo,

You're right, I do know the info you mention and I've always been very happy indeed with my own .500 bolt action. It shoots where I point it and it's never let let me down and maybe I shouldn't try to fix what ain't broke.

The problem is that I've always but always loved the round action doubles. All the others, no matter how beautiful they were, I can just admire them for their workmanship, beauty and balance but I've never particularly wanted to own one......... and even if I had the money, I doubt I could ever bring myself to pay UKP50K for a round action.

However, if the new Rigby round action double is half as good as it sounds at UKP15K is affordable........ a shit load of money for me, but if I had to stretch to it, I could.

I guess to a large extent, I'm trying to convince myself one way or the other whether I should (obviously, subject to examination) buy one. - And the opinions (etc) here, especially of those who own or have owned fine English doubles, will hopefully help me make up my mind.

As you know, Steve, I've now got a db Heym .450/.400. I suppose I could get some sort of second shot off within a second or two of the first. Taking a more-careful aim at a fleeing beast might add another second or so.

Working a bolt action might only take a second or two more than either of those scenarios but, if African shortstroke raises its ugly head, one would have to start again.

See you in four weeks
- Paul

Thanks Paul and others.

I'm a little suprised there isn't more guys that own or have owned English/British doubles out there?

There are a ton. You would see more action in the double rifle forum.

Well under two second with 450/470 class cartridges if the shooter has kept up with his shooting.

You shoot the 500, so this would be no issue for you. Those who claim lost time from recoil recovery haven't done enough shooting with their big gun(s) when shooting 450/470 class rifles.

JPK

dear steve

this is a (very bad) picture, taken outside our shop today, of our B-class action that we also use for our double rifles.
proffesionel photografs will be done monday.



best regards

peter

JPK,

I'd have thought there were more English doubles in posession of forum members than has been evident here but the reason I posted it here rather than on the doubles forum is that I want input of hunters who own both bolters and/or doubles........ AND who hunt Africa.

Peter,

I'm itching to see one of your round action double rifles in the flesh but will look forward to seeing the professional images here almost as much.

Steve,

If it itches, gotta scratch it..........

Go for it!

And for the lady, I have two half-cooked ideas:

1) Get a Spartan, and have "John Rigby & Co." engraved on it, so you can tell her that you've got a real bargain and she'll be proud of you, or:

2) Get a John Rigby & Co. (Gunmakers) and ask them to machine-engrave "Spartan" and "Remington" on it, so you can tell the Missus that you've settled for a more reasonable double, and she'll be proud of you.

I'm sure that idea No. 2 is more appealing to a gentleman. Classy, understated, achieving what it is meant to, winning on all fronts...

Philip,

My friend, if there's one thing I'm blessed with, it's a woman who would always encourage me to go for what I wanted........ and I'm doubly lucky in that we both believe in only having the real thing and avoiding look alikes and replicas etc.......... She'd probably enjoy a London built Rigby as much as I would.

Saeed posted: [quote] I never liked side by side doubles shotguns, as I could never shoot them well. Don't as me why, as I have no idea, despite the fact that with a single barrel - whether single shot or semi-auto, I am a reasonably good shot.
I can shoot over-under shotguns very well.
I get to shoot doubles quite a bit here in our shooting range, as people bring them in, and generally they ask me to sight them in for them.
But, I don't own even one double rifle.
For me, a rifle has to be accurate, and seeing how difficult it is for both barrels to print to the same point of impact, I think that is another reason I have stayed away from doubles.
So I use a bolt action rifle for all my hunting, and they all have scopes. No open sights.
I know an open sight is supposed to be easier to use at close range. But, again, my own thought is if I was in a situation where an extremely close shot has to be taken to save my skin, it would be a shotgun style point and shoot instance, rather than an aimed shot.
Again, having shot shotguns extensively, I am hoping that might save me in this sort of situation.
Ultimately, I find by using a scoped, accurate rifle, I can place my first shot reasonably well, that a dangerous follow up has not occured in my hunts so far. [end quote]

Me too, verbatim

Steve
Lots of good comments here. For what it is worth I will add mine.

Some of the old timers claimed a double kept then alive but then again (Richard Harlan for one) some said the increased capacity of the bolt saved them.

Bolt or Double, assuming both in adequate caliber and well built, there is no right or wrong choice. I am biased to English double rifles for Africa but I have to admit this is more to do with tradition than anything else. I do own several DR and have only hunted in Africa with a DR, to me it is all part of the magic, I use DR for Plains Game as well as DG.

I use a .470 NE, a plain ‘working grade” box lock non ejector manufactured by Lenard labeled CB Vaughan, she is my favorite, accurate and reliable. Prior to leaving for Africa I fire 10 rds (full power) a day for 14 days, I leave with total confidence with what I can do with her.

I believe I can fire two shots quicker than any one can fire two shots from a bolt. The bolt should always get the third rd away quicker than a double, but on a good day I may beat a bolt. The forth shot would be faster from the double, but by now the question should be academic.

I do have some observations from field experience:

I can reload two rds in my rimmed .470 non ejector far quicker than my PH can load his rimless (.416 Rigby) ejector DR. My rds “fall in” the chamber he has to push his in due to the rimless extractor. That is why I carry a DR in a rimmed caliber.

The real advantage of an ejector on a DR is that you can reload one barrel much faster than a non ejector, when on the run!

It is very easy to keep “topping up” a DR after a single shot while keeping one barrel at instant readiness, it requires more practice to do this with a bolt. This is often over looked but has a bearing on “fire power”.

Bolt or Double Rifle the key issue will always be accurate shot placement, so for DG I believe that a rifle’s caliber/bullet, fit, balance and sights are more important than the type of action.

John

I've shot a lot of pistols and rifles in competition with red dot sights. These seem well suited to close range and DG hunting. Yet I don't hear of many in use, why not? The military's use has eliminated the reliability
question, is there something I don't know about?

Steve,

You've got a keeper...

Steve, No African PH should live out his life without owning, and hunting with a S/S double rifle!

There is no real reason one should use the double rifle for dangerous game, if he is proficient with his bolt rifle. Contrary to the belief of most here I think the double rifle is a better choice for buffalo hunting than for elephant, though it would be my choice for either. The S/S double rifle is not just useful for dangerous game. Depending on the chambering the double rifle is just as well suited to so-called plains game, as a more powerful one is for Ele, and Buffalo. Set up properly and with very carefully worked up loads that shoot to the regulation in the rifle, there is no need for any other rifle in the hunting fields. That is not to say there shouldn’t be a choice for those not into double rifles. However, there is no reason a double rifle shouldn’t be fitted with a scope if that is what its owner wants. I know people who simply are not good shooters with iron sights past the “point and shoot” distance of 25 yards. The scope, even on a double like a 470NE, is not out of the question, even for elephant hunting. Inga Wojtynia from Germany shoots a Heym 470NE with a Zeiss with a lighted reticule for elephant hunting, and shoots it like a target rifle. On a smaller double, however, like a 9.3X74R, or 375 H&H flanged a scope makes the rifle into a real tack driver, but should be mounted in quality QD rings, and bases that return to zero every time!

I own and shoot double rifles from the little 8X57JR, to 58 calibers, but also shoot bolt, and single shots from .22 lr to 458LOTT and shoot them all equally well. So though I’m a real double rifle fan, I’m not opposed to shooting mean stuff with my bolt rifles, if that is what is at hand at any given time. I hunted for years in Alaska with 375 H&H bolt rifles, and that same chambering was my back-up rifle for my .450 double for Africa. Now however, I use a little 8.3 pound Merkel mod 140E double rifle chambered for 9.3X74R for backing up my 470NE double, and have never had to pass a shot I wanted to take, simply because my rifle was a double!

Every hunter who hunts Africa, commits a sin if he doesn’t own at least one double rifle in his life time, and that goes double for a PH who hunts Africa’s big five! If he wants nothing but an English double rifle then that is what he should buy, but if he just wants a well made, and reliable double rifle in a good chambering for his work, then there are any number of good double rifles to pick from!

………………………………… .............

Phillip,

That's exactly what she keeps telling me!

Mac,

I've always been very happy with my bolt action .500 and it's predecessors and although having had plenty of offers of doubles over the years, have never been tempted. Sure, they're great rifles and I've enjoyed looking at them.......... but I've never wanted one.

However, I've always loved the round actions and although I'm really at the wrong end of my Professional hunting career to spend that kind of money on a rifle, the idea of a round action London built bespoke double tempts me greatly.

There is nothing more sexy than a grand old English Double...and a round action even more!!
I have enjoyed 13 safaris and have collected all Dangerous 7 with some x2...
Preponderance have been with a bolt gun, my Elephant up close and friendly with my 470 Manton double...I would have it no other way!! The only failure I have had was a bolt 375 H&H, PH's borowed rifle on Croc...stuck cartridge and out of commission on first shot!!Final, and unnecessary follow up at insistence of young PH was with his 416 Rem.bolt gun, light and heavily loaded...WOW, what a surprise!!
Frankly, I think the 375 is underpowered for Buff and Elephant and especially up close I prefer doubles hands down...I think with practice I can load one faster than shots 3-4 from a bolt gun...if needed??
That said, a 500 Nitro is a stopper and not a fun gun to practice with...if you can shoot it, nothing will get to you!! Remember all the problems that Rolf Rohwer had with his 458's...I accused him of trying to be mauled by all of the Big 5...before his untimely passing...and he was a great professional!!
I vote Doubles for up close and dangerous...beyond 50 yards a tight shooting bolt gun...unless you have a very deep pocket...then it is like art and fashion!!

One of the questions you have to ask is, what distance will I be shooting at the animal. A scoped rifle will most definately be a better choice at the longer distances. A double rifle though has the mystique of the ages and certainly can expose you to the days of old. Truely the answer to your question lies in personal preference. Only you can decide what is best in your hands. I have hunted wounded buffalo and have been charged by one. I had my double, but only needed one barrel. It was nice to know the second was there if needed. As you can see I like the 450/400 for buffalo. A 500 up close on elephant is ideal. A lot depends on what you can handle in recoil and still be accurate. I have had both turnbolt and double fail at unfortunate times. All mechanical devises can break. For dangerous game buy the best you can afford.

Best of hunting and be safe

Shakari,

I am sure yo would rather a client showed up w a rifle he had shot 500 rounds w using full power hunting loads rather than some magic bullet/rifle combination he had shot once.

I can handle a .500 Nitro double for a few rounds, but unless I had shot it several hundred rounds prior to a hunt would default to a bolt action I had shot alot more.

Andy