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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Unconventional, BUT...what about magnum lever action safari?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Boomstick, Despite what all the "experts" here say... It does not have to be a double or a mauser It does not have to be some 40 year old cartridge. It does need to push a bullet greater than .375 with an SD around 3 at about 2300 fps It does need to be an action capable of providing a quick second and thrid follow up shot. Take a 300 Win Mag BLR...covert it to a 375 or 416 based wild cat of your choice and have at it... My first African Safari was with a BLR in 358 Win...225 grn nosler at 2400 fps... Everything I hit had nice big exit wounds and was dead inside of 50 paces By the way...clearing a jam in a bolt is just as bad...and if things go bad...cleaing stuck case in any rifle even double is going to take too long Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I guess the .470 NE is disqualified. But wildcat lever guns are in?
I had a jam in a BLR deer hunting and it took way longer to clear than any foul-up I have ever had with a bolt gun. The reason is the BLR does not offer much room inside to fit your fingers, but bolt guns are open at the side and the top. Plus there is the thumb cut if the shooter has sufficient tast to use a military mauser action. And did you ever try to clear a jam in a Marlin? Jesus! I just about bent a car key trying to get a 45-70 cartridge to go where it was intended. | |||
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Dan, Rules are really guidelines and as we both know as the caliber goes up the velocity can go down... A 500 grn 458 at 2200 is plenty... My point regarding jams is...whether its a stuck case in a double or stuck case in a BLR...a 2 second jam or 2 minute or 20 minute jam is gonna make much of a differenc ein a charge... By the way....you should by higher quality car keys...LOL Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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 Listen to this guy! Talking about others liveing in the past, while advocateing the VERY MODERN lever action!  CATS, I've said it before, and I say it again now! If you want to see the snob look in the mirror! Anyone who likes anything other than what you use is automatically a snob, it seems. What you guys seem to miss, in all this is, it is not that a lever system is bad, it isn't, but it is most of the cartridges that are hibitually chambered in them, that is the problem, and the people who insist that things like the VERY OLD 45-70, are somehow, magic. On top of that, the quality of most lever actions is suspect, as a serious stopping rifle. The BLR makes very good sense, if the early steel reciever one is modified to take the proper rounds, because the BLR is simply a bolt action that is operated by a rack&pinion LEVER,that is a true turn bolt, with locking lugs, and fed from a box magazine, not a tube! This rifle chambered for a a true big game cartridge makes perfect sense. It has all the pros of a lever action, but incorperates the strong features of a bolt rifle, along with it's ability to use just about any shape bullet without blowing your hands off! For you information, the well made double rifle is no more obsolete today than it was 100 yrs ago. In a tight spot at close range nothing ever designed will do a better job, regardless of operateing system. CATS, I know every member of the DRSS, and there isn't a really rich man, or snob amoung them. Most are simply hard working men, who simply save their money to buy what they want. I see absolutely no difference in a red neck,like me,saveing and spending $10K for a double rifle, than any other blue collored red neck spending $10K , to $25K on a frigging bass boat, and I never heard anyone with any sense, calling a bass boat owner a snob. However, I love bass fishing, but I wouldn't trade the cheapest double rifle, I own, for the best bass boat ever built,but that is no reason to call the man who would rather have a bass boat a snob. I, also, wouldn't trade it for a pick-up load of lever actions of any type, or chambering, but that has no bareing on the fellow who likes levers. If that makes me a snob in your mind, then I will simply have to live with your rejection! I have no doubt I'll survive your rath, however!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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MacD37... Very well said...or the guy who won't spend even 8k on a double but will spend 35k on a new truck... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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AMEN! George  | |||
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I really don't understand the high emotion that arises any time any one mentions using a lever gun in AFRICA on dangerous game. They have been used for years on Brown bear which I understand tend to get angry and do bad things if you just wound them. I don't know about that as I have never shot anything bigger than a Black bear. As to the "experimental" cartridges being developed, most of the cartridges currently in use arose from this background. I fully intend to build a 470AR on a steel BLR platform when the cartridge is developed. I have absolutely no fear of not being successful in this endeavor. If necessary I will machine a completely new steel magazine box (clip). It's done everyday for Mausers. As to the clip staying inserted on recoil, I can't number the notes I've read detailing the Mauser,Winchester,Ruger magazines that open under recoil. Ruger even redesigned the floorplate release. I have also seen numerous pics of duct tape across the floorplate. In case African experience is a requirement to build or desire such a gun, I have been to Zimbabwe 8 times and taken almost everything they have numerous times except Lion including 3 Elephant. As to gun knowledge I attended Trinidad State in gunsmithing in 52 and have been building bigbore rifles as a hobby ever since. That's 50+ years exposure if not experience. I currently own 375's( 5 of them,I like the caliber) 2 416 Rigbys,2 405's (a No.1 & an 1895)and a 470NE Merkel double, all of which have been used except the 405's. I also own and use numerous other rifles. I would like to go to Africa once more and take a Lion but the chances are slim to remote that that will ever be possible, but if I did I would have no qualms in using the 470AR BLR I intend to build. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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| <allen day> |
So basically you're assuming that some sort of big-bore BLR contraption will work, but you haven't actually used one or made one that actually works......... There's a BIG difference between conception and tangible reality, and I really doubt that all of the fuss and commotion will be worth the effort. AD | ||
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I think this is the point I was making earlier. I don't see the need for all the fanfare. The hunters I know who have used lever action, just get on the phone, fax or email and book a hunt. Less talk, more (lever-)action!  | |||
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anyone .. buehler? anyone? what a riot... come on guys, if you hate the idea of a lever gun (full stop) just say it.. Now, on to FACTS, not opinion, having shot the blr in 308, 358, and 300 win, i am here to tell you it will kick the mud out of a fella in a DGR class round Boomstick, you started this.. ordered you a BLR yet? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Boomstick... I have the solution and it will really irriatate all the purists... Order a BLR in 325 WSM and create a wildcat by necking it up to 375... You will probably be able to push 300 grn bullet at 2450 and likely your feeding problems will be resolved... or just buy it in 300 win mag and neck that up to 375...feeding shoudln't be a problem...and you can send it to Penrod or Echols and they will make it feed perfectly...oh maybe they have limited skills because they can only work on masuer style actions...nd it will certainly push a 300 grn bullet close to 375...or better yet...neck it up to 416... But then again you will have to listen to the rathr of people who only believe a mauser can be made to feed reliably...oh yea and I forgot it is impossible to secure a detachble box magaizine properly...of course a hinged floor plate can be secured with proper fitting of a catch and its relaease but a box magazine is beyond the technical expertise of modern man. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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High dollar trucks pick up more good lookin women that double guns..........or at least the girls I run with.........lol Billy, High in the shoulder (we band of bubbas) | |||
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I don't know about Mr. Penrod, but you can bet you badge that Mr. Echols isn't going to work on a BLR or similar junk guns. | |||
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Billy, In California...trucks are politically incorrect...therefore women don't like them... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Dan, Come on...can't a fella have a little fun...besides...everyne has their price counselor... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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jeffeosso... not yet...my car died last week so i gotta save up for the down on a new one...#@$%*&! my next rifle will be in the spring (crossing my fingers) 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If there is flexibility in the price, then the solution is apparent! Fred Wells can build anything that the human mind can imagine. So just ask him to build a Browning BLR rifle (from scratch) with a claw extractor that feeds .600 Nitro Express cartridges from a 10 round detachable box magazine. I am certain that he can accomplish it. Would you prefer a straight grip or a pistol grip? | |||
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Dan, Now you are talking...Do I hear an amen Allen Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The Marlin 1895 with Garrett cartridges should be capable of downing near about anything that walks. Their heavy solids go through rail road ties. In fact, I think that somewhere on his website he says that they will go snooter to tooter through a Grizzly bear. There is even an article about a guy that collected the big five with the 1895 and the heavy soilds. If you look on the net you can find upgrades for the lever gun, like a real heavy duty extractor and heavy duty levers. If you were competent by the rifle I wouldn't sweat it. - TomFromTheShade - Make it a point in life to leave this world a little better off than it was before you came into it. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Most of the better custom riflemakers are specialists, and the majority of them, like Echols, work on bolt-guns only. To me, it's more practical from just about every standpoint of consideration to simply develop a level of skill with a bolt gun that allows for proper, instantaneous bolt manipulation for a reload. That's fast enough for most DG hunting purposes, and if it isn't, it's time to invest in a double and then invest whatever time it takes to learn THAT system so that it becomes second-nature. AD | ||
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You guys need a sense of humor... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I don't know why every one gets their panties in such a wad, Its evident by post from people like ALF and Allen, I don't have their kind of money, so when I get to Africa it will be more than likely my Weatherby or Savage that goes along with me,, just become some one is supposed to be the high almighty when it comes to custom stuff wouldn't touch it doesn't mean its not worth it ,,or worth try'en. Hell build it, make it work and go hunting, if you survive it write about it. Stay Alert,Stay Alive Niet geschoten is altijd mis Hate of America is the defeat position of failed individuals and the failing state | |||
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Dave, I think you misunderstood what those two guys were trying to convey. It has NOTHING to do with snob appeal or money, but rather with the seemingly constant and pedantic theories proferred by these guys about a lot of "what ifs". The bottom line is that if they devoted even a little bit of energy into actually booking and going on a hunt, instead of esoteric BS theories of untested cartridges and actions, they just might get somebody to listen to them. We've been at this lever action "pumkin-roller" caliber embroglio for YEARS here on AR and we've yet seen one of these gents go on a hunt and actually kill something with these imaginary calibers. Time to shit or get off the pot I say. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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| <allen day> |
Dave, as usual, Jorge sees the point that's being made for what it is. You can be so into a dizzy over small-time money issues that you unwitting step over a dollar to pick up a dime and shoot yourself in the a$$ from a logistical standpoint all at the same time. This is about smart money and smart logistics - not about throwing money around in order to see where the duce it lands. For the sake of this particular drill, to heck with custom rifles and big money. No, this isn't about high-ticket rifles, it's about practical, sensible rifles that shoot and work properly and are truly compatible for the task at hand. You can get yourself a set of pre-64 Model 70s or Belgian-made Browning 'High-Powers' in suitable chamberings, own yourself a couple of truly great rifles, and in the process not drive yourself into the poorhouse, either. And you can hunt Africa with them literally for the rest of your career without a problem or a hassle of any kind. What's crazy and stupid is the fact that you can tie up significant money in a "theoretical" rifle (i.e. cobbled-up BLR) that may or may not work, is chambered for an off-beat cartridge that isn't available anywhere on the African continent, and that you'd lose your a$$ on just as soon as you take it home. You won't lose any money on a pre-64 or an old Browning, plus they WORK, they're available, there's nothing theoretical about them, plus they're chambered for widely-available standard African cartridges that are long-proven to work. So wherein lies the complication???????? I'd bet dollar to doughnuts that the guy who came up with this thread has absolutely NO intention of ever hunting the Dark Continent. Based on his history here, I suspect that his real facsination is with pillow-talk type off-beat big-bores that MAYBE will get built, and MAYBE will see some use on paper at the range. AD | ||
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| One of Us |
Allen's exactly right again. I hunt with standard Model-70s, new Classics and Pre-64s, Weatherbys, old browning Safari grades and rugers in pretty standard calibers and they've performed admirably on animals world-wide. I don't waste my time on theoretical rifles and theoretical calibers. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
allen... how about i just enjoy shooting and shooting big bores...this is a theoretical thread putting up for debate an unconventional rifle shooting a soon to be wildcat. this is all for fun and theory... my hope is to go on safari for my 40th birthday...that is a few years off so right now i will stick to shooting at the range and hunting in n.a. if you dont like the thread no one is forcing your fingers to the keyboard. the 375, 416, 458 and 470 ar carts would be good for safari but this is about the challenging of the idea of the conventional bolt action pretty much because of the faster shooting ability. all in good taste and intentions... i knew this would be a hot topic  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
BS (no pun intended): Nobody's forcing meto do anything, but since this is a FORUM and you asked for opinions, we gave them to you. Had you come through originally with your last post, it might not have gone this way, but when folks start saying that their new and better mousetraps are the way to go, with ZERO experience to back them up, we have to raise the BS flag. And I disagree with your premise that a lever is faster at least not on a big bore anyway. Save your money, get a real rifle and enjoy Africa. beleive me,it's a lot better than theorizing about imaginary calibers. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
jorge...  saving is what i will be doing...as i have said MANY times before...the 30-06 and 416 rigby are my top picks for africa. this is a theory thread all in good tastre and intention 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
Jorge, I normally agree with you; however...money issues aside...the issue is a closed minded view that only a bolt action or only a this or only a that will work...in some set of circumstances. For folks that are normally viewed as intellignet I have never seen so many close minded views about capable equipment... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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one of us |
The best converted levers are the following BLR converted to .458Win from .300Win Winchester 1895 converted to 9.3x62 from .30/06 or just get a crf bolt more reliable | |||
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| One of Us |
That's ok Mike, hell, I even have disagreements with my wife from time to time. But I think the crux of the disagreement is not with the "thinking outside the box" of a lever with a theoretical bullets, but rather the incessant spinning of wheels about theorizng AND dogmatically asserting their's is the way to go, yet not a single one of them ever goes hunting to prove their theory. Yes I am guilty of being extremely close minded. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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| Moderator |
ahmm,,, not "all" of them never go hunting.. http://weaponsmith.com/STC-2004.html The man said, when he started this thread, it's unconventional.. and what about it.. not "everyone has to do it" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
jorge,Allen okay I admit to being a little slow, hell I used to make a living jumping out of prefectly good airplanes  , I see your pointStay Alert,Stay Alive Niet geschoten is altijd mis Hate of America is the defeat position of failed individuals and the failing state | |||
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| One of Us |
jeff: Not to beat a dead horse, but I am assuming the pictures you offered were kills with some kind of lever action. I'm fully aware it's been done before and quite successfully, but that wasn't my point, i guess I just don't articulate my position very well so I'll not bother with it again here. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
One of the reasons I question the concept is because hunting Africa has been done with a lever off and on ever since T.R. ventured off in 1909. He liked his .405 Win. Model 95 but others were unimpressed. If a large caliber lever was vastly superior to anything else available, I think we would have heard of it by now. Levers are faster than bolts, but they certainly aren't as fast as a double, pump, or semi-auto for an aimed second shot. The larger the caliber and greater the recoil, the less of an advantage the lever has over the bolt. In the wildcat calibers I wonder if it has any real speed advantage at all. Also, your challenge would be to make sure it not only feeds and ejects the larger cartridge, but the whole rifle has to be beefed up to withstand recoil levels much greater than it was designed to. If you're aware of the development effort to make Marlin 1895 work with those .50 caliber Brown Bear-thumping Wildcats, then you're aware of problems they had with things such as sheared magazine tubes. Personally, I try to live by the adage "A smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others." Based on the lessons of those who have done it there, what works is either a double if you can afford it or a reliable bolt gun and lots of practice ammo. I think that's where I'll focus my efforts, but I look forward to a report from one of the people posting here after you get back. | |||
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| one of us |
I've havent used a lever for DG, but have used a 45/70 Marlin and this last Aug an original 95 win in 405 win, on game up to and including eland. I just plain enjoyed carrying and useing them. Then again, I also hunt in a green and black check, wool hunting shirt an one of my old ranger boonie hats in africa so you see I have no class what so ever! By the way, my pal in namibia now uses a marlin 45/70 for leopard follow ups, with wounded leopards he said it's perfect. | |||
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| one of us |
Okay,here's your chance » Advanced Shooters Forum Levergun Hunt in Africa with Paco Kelly 10-31-2005, 11:22 AM Levergun Hunt in Africa with Paco Kelly Location: South Africa Rifle & Reel Africa Safaris are making this special offer for the FIRST TEN HUNTERS who sign up - the chance of a lifetime to hunt Africa and share the camp with Paco Kelly - author of "Leverguns - an American Heritage"! There are only five openings left so if you are interested now is the time to sign up. This hunt will be a 5-day hunt for Plains Game. The Itinerary would be as follows: Day 1 – Leave US Day 2 – Arrive Johannesburg International Airport and travel to the hunting camp Days 3 to 7 – Spend hunting Day 8 – Leave Camp for Johannesburg International and depart from Johannesburg to US that evening Day 9 – Arrive in US The costs would be as follows: Daily Rate: Arrival night - $100.00 5 Hunting days - $1,350.00 ($270 per day daily rate for hunting 2 on 1 -Normal price $285.00) Sub Total - $1,450.00 Trophy fees: Impala - $250.00 (normal price $300.00) Warthog - $300.00 (normal price $350.00) Blue Wildebeest - $750.00 (normal price $850.00) Sub Total - $1,300.00 (normal price $1,500.00) Package Price - $2,750.00 This means that including airfare you could go on a 5-day hunt to Africa for less than $4000.00! Other Information: Animals not taken during the hunt would be deducted at discounted prices. Additional animals hunted would be at the standard rate. This hunt is NOT limited to lever action rifles. Hunt with what you are comfortable with and familiar with. If you are going to hunt dangerous game South Africa has a minimum caliber. Be sure to contact Rifle and Reel for complete information. The dates of the safari will be March 5th thru March 11th 2006. A deposit equal to 50% of the daily rates is payable to Rifle and Reel Africa Safaris to finalize the reservation. CONTACT: Chris Troskie email: chris@rifleandreel.com Rifle and Reel Africa Safaris Tel +27 (0) 82 859-0771 http://www.rifleandreel.com Stay Alert,Stay Alive Niet geschoten is altijd mis Hate of America is the defeat position of failed individuals and the failing state | |||
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| One of Us |
sounds neet but i have to buy a new car...damn!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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