Unconventional, BUT...what about magnum lever action safari?

jeffeosso has come up with a new round of cartridges based on a shortened rum case that will work in a browning b.l.r. they will work on a standard magnum action (anything that will take a 300w.m. or 338w.m.ect) with calibers all the way up to .475. the projections are the 475 will be on par with the capstick, the 458 a little better than the lott, the 416 a tad under the 416 rem. the 375 better than the h+h and the others very fast. browning does not know it but it has with the browning b.l.r. married the big bore, africa and lever actions together. considering the handy size faster than bolt action or a reloaded double, would this not be a good africa rifle? it will not win any beauty prizes but to some beauty is is beauty does. it will need a good recoil pad and weighted properly maybe with a mercury recoil suppressor but none the less a real stomper.

what say you?

please...the wildcat ammo or lost ammo senarios is a given, so no need to hash that issue out. you would have back up rifles.

Gary Reeder already has a line of these out in model 71's and 1895's. He has the 416/348, 450 (close to a 458 ) the 475gnr and a 476gnr which ballistically is about on par with a 475 nitro express #2 I think (475gr @ 2300 fps or thereabout).

HOW ABOUT NOT!

quote:

Originally posted by Lfaler:
Gary Reeder already has a line of these out in model 71's and 1895's. He has the 416/348, 450 (close to a 458 ) the 475gnr and a 476gnr which ballistically is about on par with a 475 nitro express #2 I think (475gr @ 2300 fps or thereabout).

sounds good, i do believe the new a.r. rounds by jeffeosso will have more case capacity but i will let him say that

this is the info on the gnr carts. i do believe the new a.r. rounds will be more potent

475 GNR
Next up is our 475 GNR. This one we developed back in 1987 for the Contender. It is a 45-70 blown out straight and with a 475 caliber bullet seated in it. It puts a 430 gr. LBT bullet out at 2000 fps and has been used extremely well on Cape Buffalo, Bison, and Australian Buffalo. Best in the Encore or in a Marlin 1895 rifle rebarreled. Brass is available.

450 GNR
Next in the Dangerous Game category is our 450 GNR. We developed this one back in 1991 for a safari scheduled in Africa the next year. It has repeatedly taken Cape Buffalo and at least 4 elephant that I know of. It is about 5% under the 458 Win Mag and does best in the Encore. This one is a 348 case necked up to 458.

416 GNR
Still in the 41 caliber but a bit larger is our 416 GNR. This one is form from 348 case full length necked up to 416. I have used this one considerably in Africa on large game. It puts a 350 gr. bullet out at 2300 fps and is best in an Encore.

Can that Browning action handle these types of pressures / stresses?

Jeff

well it will...it can handle mag preasures but for the more recoil i would make sure that the stock could handle the recoil, maybe fine tuning the fit from the action to the stock. there are a handful of people going to build the 470 in the b.l.r. including myself so hang on and we'll let you know. the stock is my only question mark



this stock would be the choice...just immagine a fatter tube.

with the 470 a.r. you could use 480 ruger pistol bullets and 500gr. north fork flat point solids and hunt gazelle to ele...

quote:

Unconventional, BUT...what about magnum lever action safari?

Well why not just put money where the mouth is and actually book the safari with someone.


Lever actions, all talk, no action.

Good call NitroX. I would be interested on seeing how it performs.

you will see it...several people are building it...if the physics are there there is no reason why it cant. some of the reason it is being done is the attitude some here have against lever action. check out the threads...be aware that the blr is a lever actuated bolt action capable of magnum forces. i am saving up for my safari for my 40th. but i am sure that someone will safari with one before me. double guns are the real deal but a lever action IS faster. it wont have a pedegree but will raise eyebrows...

dont forget judge sharp and teddy roosevelt and many other have done africa with lever actions...this is a step up.

you W-to-tha-izzill see it...several thugz is build'n it...if tha physics is there there is no reason why it cant . Throw yo guns in the motherfuckin air. some of tha reason it is being done is tha attitude some here hizzle against nigga action . They call me tha black folks president. chizzay out tha threads...be aware that tha blr is a poser actuated bolt action capable of magnum forces . Its just anotha homocide. i am sav'n up fo` mah safari fo` mah 40th. but i am sure tizzy someone will safari wit one before me , niggaz, better recognize. double gats is tha real dizzle but a leva action IS fasta . know what im sayin?. it wont have a pedegree but wiznill raise eyebrows...

dont forget judge shiznarp n T-E-Double-Dizzy roosevelt n many otha have dizzy africa wit cracka actions...this is a step up.

ran it through http://www.gizoogle.com

made it a little better i think

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Well why not just put money where the mouth is and actually book the safari with someone.


Lever actions, all talk, no action.

NitroX another of your piss stupid snyde comments. When will you and yours admit Hemmingway's romantic Africa is long gone? Double guns are a thing of the past, bottle neck is and will remain the future, an even the bluest of collar workers can afford a safari today, i.e., cow elephants,tuskless, 7 day buff etc.

"cats"

Why talk about booking this "lever-action" safari? Just put the deposit down and do it. That's what everyone else does. And it happens.

Signing out.

Isn't that what nearly everyone visiting AR/Africa Big Game Hunting,is doing? Talking about some stage of a safari.
What many of you and your fellow Dbl Gun Snob Soc. members hate to admit is, your living in the past. You can own all the DBl guns you wish, expound on the benifits of old BP calibers tossing ingots of lead around slaying the mighty buff and ele. Hold romantic visions of a Selous (that today's treker is more apt to bump into more people in than a RSA game farm hunt), reread all the "old classics" till your pages dry up and turn to dust. But you won't be doing it anymore efficiently than a blue collar guy whom works for you, drives a 3 yr old sedan, and totes a .458 bullet or better in his $300 lever gun. Hemmingway is dead! an no amount romantic wishing will bring back that era.

Boomstick,

You might consider useing the "older" BLRs as they have the forged steel recievers....the newer ones are aluminum...I don't think I'd use those on this project...IMHO.

As for Reeders guns, I contacted them and got a quick response. Their biggest calibers just hit the market a few months back and accoring to the man himself, no accounts of these being used on Safari / on Capes thus far.

BTW, several years ago some boys from Ft. Worth went over with leverguns and shot up the continent, so it has already been done to some extent...Don't know exactly what they bagged.

Jeff

Cats

As Jeff Wemmer mentions some guys already do it and some good fellows whom I have met have done it. Good on them.

I await for the actual booking of the "lever action safari". Photos on return please!

Dave Clay of DRC in Texas builds a DG capable rifle based on a Win 1886 and uses a beefed up case. I can't remember what it is based on but I think it was a .50/110 to start with. I seem to remember that it has a bit of a shoulder. He renecks it to .458 and is pushing a 500 gr bullet at damn near Lott speeds.

As far as these big bore levers being "faster" than a double. That is all in the operator. These rifles are pretty light weight and when you start pushing 5000 FtLbs of energy out the front they have some serious recovery time involved.

Not my cup of tea in general but it being done successfully as we speak. I don't know what the big deal is?

I have a DRC 86 Winchester in 450/110. As Surestrike said it is a 50/110 necked down to 458.

It will match or slightly exceed a 458 Win mag. I have personally chronographed 460 grain bullets at 2230 fps out of a 22 inch barrel.

Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammo did the initial load work up. He was getting the following velocities.

2400 fps with a 400 grain Kodiak Bonded Core Bullet
2450 fps with a 420 grain Cast Performance bullet
2150 with a 525 Grain Beartooth Cast Bullet.

Why not just use a Ruger #1 its almost a lever action. In my book as much as a Browning Is
The Judge had it right for a lever safari a 405 1895 His reports and Robs reports of their 405 loads were right there where I would have felt good minus meeting a Jumbo. An added bonus is you could where a cowboy hat carring a winchester but a browning???
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by jnc91:

2150 with a 525 Grain Beartooth Cast Bullet.

I would be interested to know what the cartridge can do (at reasonable pressures in temperatures of 110 degrees F.) with a solid suitable for dangerous game use. In the .458 bore diameter, that means a 450 grain or 500 grain solid. I think that Kodiak makes a flat nose jacketed solid, so that might be a good candidate.

Dan,

I know Dave Clay real well as he's built several rifles for me. 3, 458 Lotts on Win M-70's and one Marlin 1895 in (yes it's true ) .45-70. (great little hog rifle!)

Much load testing was done in Texas in the summer at 100 + degree temp.

Of all the lever gun rounds and lever gun configurations this one is the most for real DG set up I've ever seen.

Dave had the help of Ashley Emerson on this project and if you know Ashley you'd know he is a no B.S. serious working gun kind of guy.

Next time I'm down there I'll load up some 500gr barnes monolithic solids and put them across the chrono. I am curious as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jnc91:

2150 with a 525 Grain Beartooth Cast Bullet.

I would be interested to know what the cartridge can do (at reasonable pressures in temperatures of 110 degrees F.) with a solid suitable for dangerous game use. In the .458 bore diameter, that means a 450 grain or 500 grain solid. I think that Kodiak makes a flat nose jacketed solid, so that might be a good candidate.

I have a box of the 450 Grain Kodiak Flat nose solids. I havn't worked up a load with them yet but I think they would be ideal at 2200-2250 fps.

Another thought would be to swage a flat point on a 480 grain Woodleigh and load it to 2150 or so.

Ahh! A very interesting point has been introduced here. Speed and Accuracy: Lever versus DR.

Being a veteran of both disciplines here's my take.

If we were talking standard loaded ammo out of say a 30-30 I'd give the speed and multiple hits capability of the levergun the advantage over a DR...

...But, in this case we're not. I shoot a .470NE double (11.5 lbs) and with 500 grainers humming along over 2000 FPS it recovers pretty quickly as was evidenced by my near point-blank double-tap on a charging Buffalo this summer.

Having shot my share of 45-70 Leverguns hopped-up with hot ammo I can say without a doubt and given all things I consider relavant, the DR is faster on target with 2 accurately placed shots.

That said - the designers of these new "Super Leverguns" should consider "recoil management" (first shot recovery time lapse) in the form of muzzle-flip as a serious priority.

I don't mind heavy recoiling guns as long as they are on target for a quick second shot.

I am afraid that the combination of running the lever and an inordinate anout of muzzle flip will nearly wash-out the intended advantage of using one of these guns in the first place, thus putting the advantage in the favor of the DR



Thoughts from the gallery,

Jeff

PS - I still want to bag a Buff with a levergun!!!

a geed recoil pad, (kick-ease) mercury supressor, a heavy barrel and weight in the front would tame this wild beast...we'll find out in about a month

Boom,
I'm certainly not an expert on the BLR but I've been around a couple (a .243 and .22-250) that did not fire when the trigger was pulled...and at the worst possible time. It's been awhile ago but something with the firing pin????....might be something to check into. The .243 wouldn't fire when cold and the .22-250 (I think it was the 22-250) would misfire when it got hot!!!!!!

Good hunting,

nothing a little smithing wont fix i am sure...if you are doing major modifications like this you will be sure it will go boom when needed.

Ahhh, we progressed from lever action .45-70s to wild cat lever actions...niiice.

What I think you need to do is book an honest safari and put your oddball rifle and cartridge theories to the test.........

AD

.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with hunting anything you want to with a 45-70 lever gun. Why would there be, for Pete's sake?????

There's nothing wrong with wearing bib-overalls as a safari costume, either, if that's to your taste ........

AD

AD are you trying to tell us you wear a pith helmet and knickers an knee high leather lace up boots?...cause that's a traditional safari ...er,..."costume" as you put it. Whom was the rouge that decided khaki shorts were vouge?????

45-70,45-90,45-120,50-110,50Alaskan,etc will all do the job an everyone knows it will
I have a 45-120 built off a Kodiak 45-70. It is one mean SOB on recoil because the rifle was lite to begin with, though I tamed it a tad by placing 29 38-55 270 gr lead bullets nestled in lead shot in the butt stock then ground a Simms recoil pad to fit it ( the LOP increased by 1" with the Simms installed but in my case the rifle fits better) Brass was the problem until CB shooting became the rage of late, which is why I built it to begin with using it for long range matches @ 500 & 1000 yds.
I have poured my own lead for it since I began shooting it. Using wheel weights it tosses a 461 gr lead FN out of my mould an when the time is correct I hope to kill something with them...until then I use a 256gr LNFP for my long range match shooting. We pay $1.00/shot to the kiddie for a 20 shot round and take back $1.00 for each ring of the steel...Ole Joe as I call this gun has never failed to bring home enough $ to buy a few largers on the way home from the shoot for me

As to recoil management, my 86 Winchester in 450/110 has a full length mag tube that holds six rounds plus one in the chamber, it has a mercury recoil reducer in the butt and a kick-eze pad.

It is 40 inches overall with a 22 inch barrel and weighs in at about 10.5 pounds. The point of balance is just behind the junction of the reciever and the barrel. It is a very compact, well balanced and fast handling rifle.

The Ashley Ghost ring sight comes on target instantly. If a scoped shot is desired I have a scout scope I can use.

It recoils nicely and is a peach to shoot when down loaded to the level of a 450 Alaskan (460 grains at 2050). It is still manageable with hot loads (460 grains at 2230) but I would describe it as a peach to shoot at that point.

this rifle will be as powerfull as either the capstick lott 416 rem in a modern blr this is not about the old but good cowboy loads

this is not a rehash...i am sure not many here want to be converted

but i do support those who use those loads like me in a sane way

Look at this

http://www.rooseveltbrowninghunt.com

I toyed with the overall idea as well until I realized that the BLR has a spring plunger ejector, just like on a typical push feed bolt action. Not trying to stir up any kind of CFR versus push feed debate, but it is something to keep in mind for a DG lever action. The odds of failure are extremely small, but you never know (I have been one of the unlucky few that had a round stuck in my rifle in the field, albeit on a whitetail hunt). I would feel a lot better having a fixed blade ejector on a repeating rifle to be used for dangerous game.

The only lever gun mentioned on this thread that is a Buffalo gun is the 50-110 IMO...Energy figures are a farce..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The only lever gun mentioned on this thread that is a Buffalo gun is the 50-110 IMO...Energy figures are a farce..

serious question...

is a 500 gr .475 or .458 woodleigh at 2200 a buffalo round?

jeffe

Jeffe
You have been here long enough to know its not that simple 500grains at 2200fps my god man you might as well have a 458 win mag!
Ps someone forgot to tell the buffalo and elephant I shot that wasnt enough to kill them.
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by tonto:
Jeffe
You have been here long enough to know its not that simple 500grains at 2200fps my god man you might as well have a 458 win mag!
Ps someone forgot to tell the buffalo and elephant I shot that wasnt enough to kill them.
Dean

Don't worry, they don't read the Big Bore forum.

How Long does it Take to Clear a Jammed Cartridge in a Lever Gun????

You at least have another barrel with a double rifle even if you have a problem with your first barrel.

Boom Stick did say you would have "back up rifles" would you have PH's Shooting at the Buffalo or DG with the back up rifles???