quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Gerard:

Wound ballistics 101:

The permanent cavity can only be that of the outside diameter of the projectile !

Alf, this is total bullshit. When flesh is missing due to the bullet wound, that's permanent.

Why do you wish to start with a false premise?

Damn! this is some serious shit on this thread!
I think I am going to have to drink cold one and read it again.

With my tiny brain---- I think I can sum up the entire thread as this:

Use enough gun and the animal is going to fall over dead!

So... rigor mortis is the phenomenon that causes a bullet wound to "appear" larger than the bullet itself?

Gosh, so a bullet keeps on wounding after an animal is dead? What a boon!

.

Alf,

How many elephant have you killed?

Bulls or cows?

Were you happy/unhappy with the performance of your rifle and ammo?

Just curious.

Andy

.

Alf, what you are saying about the factual science of terminal ballistics are correct and true.

However, I tend to agree with 500grains when he wrote the bold portion below:

500grains wrote:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Gerard:

Wound ballistics 101:

The permanent cavity can only be that of the outside diameter of the projectile! unquote.

Alf, this is total bullshit. When flesh is missing due to the bullet wound, that's permanent.

Reason I agree: You tend to forget what you have said in this thread and these facts will always be present in these wound channel forming situations, namely:

quote:

Living tissues are solids.

as well as

quote:

....when the elastic limits of that solid is overcome it fractures.

Só, there will always be secondary projectiles when a bullet impacts on an animal and what myself, 500grains and others are seeing will always be a larger than calibre size permanent wound channel. FACT!

I think most of us do not realise how powerful the acceleration/Action forces brought about by the combustion process actually are. A small accellerated fragment of solid tissue, tendon or bone can be as damaging to flesh as the impacting bullet itself.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
500 grains:

Prove me wrong man !

Perhaps you should invest in taking time in reading up on the factual science of terminal ballitics before calling it BS !

If there is tissue missing it means that your projectile did more than just penetrate in a stable non deforming non fragmenting fashion.

If there is a bigger hole than your projectile then your projectile by definition had to tumble, deform , fragment or create secondary projectiles !

Also Post mortem artefact changes include wound edge retraction due to Rigor !

If you do not believe me I can but copy and paste!

" Chemistry of Muscle Fibers"


A few hours after a person or animal dies, the joints of the body stiffen and become locked in place.

This stiffening is called rigor mortis. Depending on temperature and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours.

The phenomenon is caused by the skeletal muscles partially contracting. The muscles are unable to relax, so the joints become fixed in place.

More specifically, what happens is that the membranes of muscle cells become more permeable to calcium ions. Living muscle cells expend energy to transport calcium ions to the outside of the cells.

The calcium ions that flow into the muscle cells promote the cross-bridge attachment between actin and myosin, two types of fibers that work together in muscle contraction. The muscle fibers ratchet shorter and shorter until they are fully contracted or as long as the neurotransmitter acetylcholine and the energy molecule adenosine triphosphate (ATP) are present.

However, muscles need ATP in order to release from a contracted state (it is used to pump the calcium out of the cells so the fibers can unlatch from each other). ATP reserves are quickly exhausted from the muscle contraction and other cellular processes. This means that the actin and myosin fibers will remain linked until the muscles themselves start to decompose.
etc etc.

Rapid cooling of a body can inhibit rigor mortis, but it occurs upon thawing). Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem. Facial muscles are affected first, with the rigor then spreading to other parts of the body. The joints are stiff for 1-3 days, but after this time general tissue decay and leaking of lysosomal intracellular digestive enzymes will cause the muscles to relax. It is interesting to note that meat is generally considered to be more tender if it is eaten after rigor mortis has passed.

" Rigor mortis is very important in meat technology.

The onset of rigor mortis and its resolution determines the tenderness of meat.

If the post-slaughter meat is immediately chilled to 15°C, a phenomenon known as cold shortening occurs, where the muscle is shrunken to 1/3rd of its original size.

Also:

Terminal Ballistics: A Text and Atlas of Gunshot Wounds: Malcolm Dodd
ISBN: 0849335779

Alf,

Prove you wrong? Just look at the pics that Norbert posted which show a permanent wound channel that is larger than the diameter of the bullet. And that is the end of it.

Your background references deal primarily with spitzer FMJ military rounds and handgun FMJ rounds (low velocity). We have all seen small wound channels from handgun or muzzle loader bullets. And we all know that spitzer FMJs are not suitable for DG use. But that is not the question.

Since your theory (permanent wound channel is not larger than bullet diameter) does not fit the empirical data, there is something wrong with your theory.

.

Alf, once again you are right in what you're saying, but in the hunt it is far less theoretical than what you are describing.
Só, when you say:

quote:

Jagter:

You are taking a single sentance and putting it out of context!,

I can't help to again differ from your following viewpoint:

quote:

a Stable, non fragmenting, non deforming projectile impacting a homogenous target medium such as muscle without hitting anything prior to or hitting bone will create a permanent wound tract roughly the same size or smaller than the widest outside diameter of the projectile.(My italics.)

Firstly, the animal I shoot is covered with skin (a tough and hard material, especially on large game), even with the best possible shot placement, the bullet will at least impact some tissue (a solid) before it reaches any muscle or bone.
These skin, tissue and perhaps muscle fragments (not to mention the bone fragments for now) are immediately turned into secondary projectiles by the bullet's acceleration/Action force carried over to them.
And that's it, as simple as that resulting in a larger than calibre permanent wound channel - that is what myself and others see and feel if we bother to push our fingers into it!

On another issue, you say:

quote:

For years, and I have drawn and have copies of a lot of these original articles we were fed in the popular gun press a steady diet of junk science.

Same happened or is still happening to us with the imaginary 'inertia' junk physics concept.
Even when it has been pointed out clearly to us that it doesn't exist at all!

One has to live with it and apply it all in the specific situation taking all the possibilities into account. Only then one can expect to get the correct answer.

ALF,

Your "lawyerspeak" arguments attributing larger than bullet wound diameters to rigor mortis are not convincing. Whereas rigor may contribute some to the appearance of a larger wound, it can hardly be the cause of a such results as 4" diameter wound from a .300 magnum. What causes this? And why would this same phenomena that causes a varmint to literally explode from a projectile much smaller in cross section not be present in some degree, in a large animal being penetrated by a non-dynamic projectile?

My postmortems occur immediately following contact with the carcass and I've never seen wound size increase significantly through the next 72 hours. In addition, the many broadhead arrow wounds I've examined - no matter what the time afterward, are in no way significantly larger than the cutting diameter of the broadhead itself. Where is the effect of rigor there?

Certainly, flesh is continually changing, whether quick or dead, but the effect of rigor on desceased tissue is not siginificant enough to be the single cause of a permanent wound channel appearing larger than the projectile that caused it.

Interesting thread. Only through the truth will we be empowered to control our results.

Alf
During the 2003 hunting season I joined a cull hunt for springbuck. On one occasion I received a call on the radio that a wounded ram was coming my way. Minutes later he almost ran over me and I shot him less than quarter going away at about 40 meters. 220 Swift with 40gr HVs at 4400fps mv. He was going fast, my scope was too big and I shot him way too far back. He piled up in a heap and did not require a second shot.

The entrance hole, just ahead of the back leg, was slightly more than caliber and the exit hole, behind the ribcage on the opposite side, was big enough to put a fist into. A large portion of the intestines was hanging out of the hole. Once the carcass was cleaned and hanging, you could look at the entrance hole, through the exit hole, with both eyes. I am pretty sure that a 40gr HV bullet cannot expand to 7 or so centimetres. How do you figure that permanent cavity got to that diameter?

ALF!

Looks like your having a tough time here. Not many buy your explanations. It may help if you answer some of the questions that so far you have avoided.

1. How can you extend data gathered from military pointed or low velocity hand gun solid bullets to high velocity (+2,000 fps) FN and round nosed solids of much heavier weight? One of the most frustrating results of research studies I conducted that were published in peer reviewed scientific journals was the habit of fellow scientists and interested amateurs using my results to try to prove their theories on variables that were not tested in my studies.

2. You know that most animals are gutted and wound channels are looked at long before rigor mortis sets in. Yours was a true statement but a shallow argument on your part. You do what you condemn others for doing in that you automatically assume that the pictures above show the affects of rigor mortis with out any information to make that assumption. I am not doubting the affects of rigor mortis on wound size as I have seen it happen but I have also seen much much larger wound channels then bore size in freshly necropsied animals. This appears especially evident in lung and heart tissue where the chance of affects of secondary projectiles are remote. Unstable bullet path was possible but no one can measure that nor confirm or eliminate the possibility. Can you show us any peer reviewed studies of high velocity flat nosed or or round nosed bullets on tissues or bones?

3. As I stated above the data your presented on permanent wound cavaties shows high variance. With some wounds showing wound channels from pointed military bullets that are up to 3X bullet diameter. Why the high variance?

As some one who was trained in the scientific method of research I was taught to always keep an open mind and that NO scientific law should be taken as gospel. As soon as we close are minds to alternatives we regress to the dark ages. As one of my profs said "Todays truths are tomorrows falsehoods!"

465H&H

gerard...sorry for off topic but what is your powder and load for that 220 swift???

p.s. good shooting!

quote:

220 Swift with 40gr HVs at 4400fps mv. He was going fast, my scope was too big and I shot him way too far back. He piled up in a heap and did not require a second shot.

The entrance hole, just ahead of the back leg, was slightly more than caliber and the exit hole, behind the ribcage on the opposite side, was big enough to put a fist into. A large portion of the intestines was hanging out of the hole. Once the carcass was cleaned and hanging, you could look at the entrance hole, through the exit hole, with both eyes. I am pretty sure that a 40gr HV bullet cannot expand to 7 or so centimetres.

Hi Gerard,

I am sure that this will not come as any surprise to you but many small (60 to 70 pound) whitetail deer shot in south Texas with 22-250 (a very popular caliber down there) typically showed this extreme destruction. Some looked like they had swallowed a hand grenade.

It is with some hesitation that I enter into this increasingly exoteric debate, but, it seems that I read continually about "tailless" elephants being later shot and other hunters ending up with just a tail.

Obviously a bullet travelling through bone that passes near the brain (but does not direct hit the brain) generates sufficient "shock" (or concussion or whatever energy releasing term you choose to use) to knock the elephant out but does not kill them. It would seem that if all of this energy can be transmitted through the fluid within the cavities of the skull and through the bone itself that in "soft" tissue at least some, tissue would have to be seriously damaged by this same "energy releasing" force.

I have a little trouble believing that there is this infinitely thin boundary layer separating totally destroyed soft tissue and uneffected soft tissue when I have seen tissue penetrated by solids that show at least some apparent disruption that while thin is not knife edge sharp.

.

Alf,

A number of years ago when I was AR member number 375, I recalled my experiences butchering feed lot cattle with monster handloads in the 45 acp. These were small 600 pound cattle that we decided to cull since they were "poor doers" and were not going to make weight (1200 pound minimum) and we could not afford to feed them any longer.

To make a long story short I used 185 grain FMJ wadcutter at 1150 fps (barely supersonic by 120 fps), 200 grain H and G hard cast at 1000 fps, 230 grain lead RN hardcast w pointed ogive, 230 grain FMJ Hornady RN with blunt meplat at 850-950 fps, 250 grain hard cats Ketih SWC, soft speer SWC, and 255 grain hard cast RN-FN for 45 Colt sized to .451 at 970 fps using WW 630 powder. (This required a stronger recoil spring).

The SWC's always left a larger than diameter wound in these cattles shoulder muscle. they were butchered emmeidately, so no rigor at all. They were hanging upside down on butchers truck within a couple minutes.

We saw this same phenomenon regardless of where we shot them.

All the RN left a shincter shaped wound that almost entirely closed up.

The RN-FN closed from full diamter by about one half and was a modest improvement over the RN. I actually liked this bullet alot as it fed as well as a RN.

So even with subsonic or barely supersonic bullets, the SWC left a larger than diameter hole in shoulder muscles.

These SWC's had vastly different meplat diameters, bullet hardness, and depth of shoulder.

Alf, you need to put down your text books, buy some cheap cattle like you have readily available in Canada, and shoot them yourself.

I might add that your references are quite old. I was Marty Facklers editor at IDR.

Andy

.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
And once again in this seemingly unending revisitation of penetration, I concede that a FN will probably on average deflect less than a RN and hence on average yield greaater penetration.

But what the hell, shoot 'em where you are suppose to and they go down.

Bill,

Trying to get some common sense answers into an argument on theories is like pissing up a tree.


The more one hunts, the more one discovers how little he knows about animal behaviour after being shot.

I have seen animls hit well go for an extra ordinary distance, and have seen animals hit with a marginal shot die within a few yards!

Apparently the animals have not been informed of how they should behave after being shot with a certain type of bullet or cetain caliber.

Saeed, at last a statement on this post that I agree with 100%!!

Alf,
I started on the list of 22 references you gave above and here is what I found:

1. "Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets." Martin L. Fackler, International Defense Review, 59-64, 1/1989.

Not relevant as it deals only with FMJ 5.56 mm wounds.

2. "Emergency War Surgery, Chapter II Missile Caused Wounds." Thomas E. Bowen, M.D. and Ronald F. Bellamy, M.D., The Emergency War Surgery NATO Handbook (Second United States Revision), USDoD, 13-34.

Deals mostly with military wounds but has a section on 308 hunting bullets and it contains this observation: "the crush in the tissue that results from bullet expansion accounts for only a small part of the large permanent cavity."

3. "Emergency War Surgery, Chapter XVI Wounds and Injuries of the Soft Tissues." Thomas E. Bowen, M.D. and Ronald F. Bellamy, M.D., The Emergency War Surgery NATO Handbook (Second United States Revision), USDoD, 230-238.

Could not find this one but it is not likely that they will contradict the opinion they expressed in 2 above.

4. Fackler, M.L., MD: "What’s Wrong with the Wound Ballistics Literature, and Why", Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, Report No. 239, July, 1987.

Although it leans heavily towards military and law enforcement scenarios as well as much about handgun wounds, it does contain these remarks:: " A projectile crushes the tissue it strikes during penetration, and it may impel the surrounding tissue outward (centrifugally) away from the missile path. Tissue crush is responsible for what is commonly called the permanent cavity and tissue stretch is responsible for the so-called temporary cavity. These are the sole wounding mechanisms." (Note the plural in "mechanisms")

It further states: " The wound produced by a particular penetrating projectile is characterized by the amount and location of tissue crush and stretch." (So wounds are caused by crush and stretch.)

5. "The Idolatry of Velocity, or Lies, Damn Lies, and Ballistics." Douglas Lindsay, M.D., Ph.D., JTrauma, 20(12): 1068-1069, 1980.

Could not find this one, only references to it, all on handgun wounds. This may render it irrelevant to the discussion.

6. "The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components." Martin L. Fackler, M.D., and John A. Malinowski, B.S., JTrauma, 25(6): 522-529, 1985.

Draws conclusions from testing in swine and gelatine. Contains this statement: "The four wound components, penetration, fragmentation, permanent cavitation, and temporary cavitation, were diagrammed in what was termed a 'wound profile." (Does this not confirm that cavitation is a reality and that it is a component of the permanent wound cavity?)

7. "The Wound Profile: Illustration of the Missile-tissue Interaction." Martin L. Fackler, M.D., Ronald F. Bellamy, M.D., and John A. Malinowski, B.S., JTrauma, 28(1) Suppl: S21-S29, 1988.

Deals with testing of FMJ military bullets in gelatine. (Should it be on the list?)

8. "Wound Ballistics: A Review of Common Misconceptions." Martin L. Fackler, MD, JAMA, 259(18): 2730-2736, 5/13/88.

Could not find this one but it can be assumed that Fackler would not contradict the statements in 4 and 6 above.

9. "A Reconsideration of the Wounding Mechanism of Very High Velocity Projectiles -- Importance of Projectile Shape." Martin L. Fackler, M.D., Ronald F. Bellamy, M.D., and John A. 10.Malinowski, B.S., JTrauma, 28(1) Suppl: S63-S67, 1/1988.

A comparison of high velocity blunt projectiles and FMJ bullets. This statement is included: "The temporary cavity becomes larger with increasing velocity but it does not become shallow unless the projectile fragments on impact." (Given that Fackler has stated the significant contribution of damage by the temporary cavity to damage in the permanent cavity, it is a given that higher speed will increase the size of the permanent cavity.)

As the rest of the references are all from Fackler et al and unlikely to contradict anything above, I gave up looking for the individual papers due to time constraints.

The bottom line of everything I read in the papers above indicate that at rifle bullet speeds:

The temporary cavity is a significant wounding mechanism. (2, 4, 6, 9)
The temporary cavity is present in non deforming projectile penetration of tissue. (2, 4, 9)
The higher the speed, the bigger the temporary cavity. (9)
Certain bullet shapes will produce more significant temporary cavities than others. (9)
Permanent cavities are bigger than caliber. (All)

Note the emphasis on rifle bullets and this excludes rifles that are only capable of handgun speeds.

Alf,

I knew Elmer Keith pretty well, and he never intended for the SWC to expand.

None of the bullets I shot into cattle expanded. Not one!

If I understand your theory correctly, the larger than diameter bullet holes I observed, and thousands of other hunters have observed, had to be due to the instability of the bullet.

Believe me my freind, none of those bullets expanded. They were all very hard lead w exception of swaged 250 grain speer and even though it had the widest meplat of group it did not deform either. The edge of the shoulder was worn down a bit, is all.

Your disdain for my shooting feedlot steers instead of African plains game is odd since it is excellent scientific method to use the same breed and species of animal, same weight, same shot location, same range, same caliber but w different bullets.

Sometimes you sound like an expert witness at a trial lecturing the jury. Maybe thats what you do for a living, but we are not a jury of non-hunters and non-shooters, we are your peers.

Your superior attitude is entirely inappropriate to a congenial chat group like Saeed has created for us to enjoy!

Back to elephant hunting. At higher velocity, take a look on page 33 of Nyati by Dr. Robertson, and you will see a photo of a 465 grain A Square Monolithic solid from a 458 Lott shot into the heart of a cape buffalo. The loaded ctg is below the hole in heart and acts as a pretty accurate measuring stick. The hole in heart is about 2 1/2 x 2 inches in diameter.

What sincerely puzzles me is how you can say a SWC or truncated cone FN (which I also tested when they became available from Hornady a few years later) cannot produce a larger than diameter hole in flesh.

Elmer Keith is turning over in his grave on the Salmon River!

Sincerely, Andy

Boom Stick,
I was using a South African ball powder (46gr S341) behind a 40gr HV and a PMP LR Magnum primer for 4300 to 4400 fps depending on temperature and altitude.

Though I'm loathe to fuel another fateful .45-70 debate, but I thought this was an interesting take on penetration, found on the website of a prominent cartridge manufacturer.

"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great."

At and after WW2 more animals were dropped with 30-06 fmj military ammo in 30-06 rifles left in africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:
Though I'm loathe to fuel another fateful .45-70 debate, but I thought this was an interesting take on penetration, found on the website of a prominent cartridge manufacturer.

"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great."

Is this from the fiction-packed Garrett website?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanna:
Though I'm loathe to fuel another fateful .45-70 debate, but I thought this was an interesting take on penetration, found on the website of a prominent cartridge manufacturer.

"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great."

Bwanna,

I have heard this test quoted SO MANY TIMES!

As has been stated before by other members... The reason for this is that in wet newspaper the slower bullets push the paper out of the way and the bullet can slip through. The faster moving projectiles tear a greater then caliber portion of newspaper out and has to push this chunk of paper forward which acts like a big anchor impeding forward movement.

I think I got that right but if not someone can correct me.

Bottom line is WET NEWSPAPER ISN'T FLESH!

How could anyone possibly believe that a 45-70 has better penetration then a 458 Lott.

That Garret site is going to get somebody hurt.

Bwana,

Wet news paper ain't flesh. For flesh, just imagine this:

The simple common sense version:

A 45/70 pushes x bullat at 1550fps and it penetrates y distance. A 458wm pushes x bullet at 1550fps plus 500fps. When the bullet has penetrated z distance and slowed to the speed of 1550fps it then has y distance to penetrate, same as the 45/70 penetrated at 1550fps.

Penetration of the 45/70 equals y distance.

Penetration of the 458wm equals z distance, the distance the bullet penetratewd while slowing down to 45/70 velocity, plus y distance, the distance the 45/70 penetrated.

JPK

.

Alf,

You are arguing against evidence that though limited in sample, is 100% contrary to your theories. It seems to me that based on the evidence your theories are based on the wrong bullet profile. Try as you might, direct observation beats the printed theories.

JPK

.

Gentlemen,

On the few occasions where we have been able to recover the bullet, our experience would indicate that impala are more resistant to bullet penetration than buffalo!

I know, some of you are already laughing, but please bear with me.

I have shot a number of impala while facing me, the bullets entering the chest from the front, and ending up under the skin in the rear legs close to the tail.

I have also shot a number of buffalo up the rear end. The bullets seem to penetrate all the way to the chest or even the neck!

The distance the bullets travel in the buffalo is longer than they do in impala.

Being practical people, we have reached the following conclusions.

Either the impalas are tougher to penetrate than buffalo.

OR

Animals are more resistant to bullet penetration if shot front to back, rather than back to front.

This has gotten Walter thinking. He said he will try to study in more details this s trange phenomena next time we hunt.

Stay tuned for more PRACTICAL conclusion

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

So when you tell me your 22 cal HV projectile blew a fist sized hole through some animal which incidently I have personal experience of I can state that the projectile either tumbled ( which we know they dont) or we hit bone which we also can say did not happen based on the path and finally the projectile shed it's petals and that is likely what happened !

So you are trying to tell us that a big bullet makes a sub-caliber hole, but little tiny broken off petals make a gigantic hole?

I don't buy it.

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The guy with the SWC's in cattle.

His name is Andy.

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If the hole is bigger than the caliber in muscle it means one of two things only, your SWC expanded either at the tip or the base and they do ! Even these monometal solids expand or the SWC became unstable which is highly unlikely.

Hogwash! When an entrance hole is larger than caliber neither of your reasons explains it. And when the bullet is found nose foward, undeformed, neither of your reasons explains it.

Alf, you need to study up on the scientific method.

WHEN YOUR THEORY DOES NOT FIT EMPIRICAL DATA, THEN THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR THEORY.

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Yes 500 Grains, it is from the Garrett Website. Mind you all, I'm certainly not advocating their position, but I think it is so counterintuitive, it's worth reading. Frankly, I have shot Bison with the .45-70 with good success; but it wasn't looking to kill me at the time. As for the article, I was taken back that it was telling me that my .458 Lott, which wallops the hell out of one's shoulder is actually doing less damage on the front end than the .45-70 which is relatively pleasant to shoot. In any case, again I didn't want to fuel the smoldering embers of the .45-70 debate.

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and finally the projectile shed it's petals and that is likely what happened !

I will put money on it that the petals were torn off. The retained weight of a 40gr HV with the entire nose machined off is 32gr. Each petal weighs a maximum of 2.7gr. So a total of 8gr worth of petals blew a 7cm hole through the springbuck? I find that difficult to believe. Torn off petals seldom exit and, with the amount of stomach content the bullet got through, I will put more money on it that only the shaft of the bullet made it out the other side.

Here is a description of a neck shot on an elk with a 130gr 7mm mono: "This bullet entered the right side of his neck, traveled through the jugular then trachea (nice holes by that time), then damaged both the carotid and jugular on the way out, leaving a hole large enough to stick two of my fingers in on the exit side. The neck shot did not hit any bone."

The hunter states in his hunt report that he found what was probably one petal in the neck wound channel. This is typical as petals tend not to exit.




The entire hunt report is here.

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Sure glad life was breathed back into this thread.

Most interestingly, it has indeed been established that the GSC FN is the most effective and most copied solid in the world.

I can do without the softpoint terminal ballistics mumbo jumbo. Easy enough to see what works. North Fork softs would undoubtedly be the world's best soft where available caliber and weight suits, and the GSC HV or Barnes TSX (copycat) for the rest of the gaps in the ballistic spectrum, especially big and small bores not serviced by North Fork.

Most interesting of all is the research on the reverse-Portuguese heart shot versus standard Portuguese heart shot and the secondary hypothesis of impala versus cape buffalo media resistance.

But that is softpoint research, and we have strayed away from elephant penetration with solids.

Deserves another thread.

I'll stay tuned.