Alf,

If you don't understand 465's answer no amount of additional explanation can help you. His answer says it all, but he missed one additional possible outcome.

If you watch Buzz's video there are three elephants, IIRC, that are killed outright by the energy delivered by heavy calibre bullets that miss the brain. One was a bull that was killed outright by a .458" bullet that missed the brain by at least 6".

I'm fairly sure I have killed one cow with a frontal brain shot which was about an inch too high. At the shot her eyes when vacant and she dropped like a stone. She seemed deader than a doornail when she went down but she got the insurance shot, so I will never know for sure.

JPK

.

quote:

I'm fairly sure I have killed one cow with a frontal brain shot which was about an inch too high. At the shot her eyes when vacant and she dropped like a stone. She seemed deader than a doornail when she went down but she got the insurance shot, so I will never know for sure.

The concept you are discussing is the basis for Taylor's "Knock-Out" values.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The statement was made if penetration was not adequate and placement was out then "power" ( energy) does the killing. How is this explained ?

Well... think of a duck that is hit with a bunch of pellets from a shotgun blast. None of those pellets might actually penetrate, but the duck will be dead nevertheless. Too much 'shock' to the system I guess.

You can kill a man by hitting him over the head with a 2x4, never penetrating anything, but killing just the same.

[speculations start here]
Similarly, I can imagine that a blow that is big enough, to the elephant's skull, without actually penetrating the brain, will kill. Bigger energy (or momentum) in the bullet, bigger blow.

Frans

Alf,

In his post Will didn't say that energy killed an elephant directly, neither did 465. In my post I related the three elephants in Buzz's DVD killed by large bore bullets that missed the brain and one that I killed with a .458" bullet that apparently passed about an inch above the brain.

Anyway energy from a missed brain shot likely kills an elephant the same way a boxers have died in the ring. In the boxers' cases there is no penteration, no cutting or crushing, in fact the skull remains intact.

Don,

I'm a believer in Taylor's general theories, even though not a huge fan of his table and too strong effort to catogorize reactions.

If you haven't had the opportunity to see Buzz Charlton's DVD, you should try. It is very exciting and informative. The three elephants that die as a result of missed brain shots in his video get no insurance shot, so the question that remains about the one I killed is no issue with regard to those three. The death of the bull whose brain was missed so much is suprising, to say the least, since you can see the bullet strike at full speed, way off target. Shown again in slow motion it is even more suprising.

JPK

Energy.

When I missed the brain on my ele cow, it absolutely rocked her world! She spun around 180 degrees and I shot her in left rear hip, bullet making it into lungs stem to stern. (Or should I say stern to bow)?

Shot her again front on and it practically knocked her over.

I never felt in danger of her but the other elephant propping her up with a bunch of ivory was scarry!

I was shooting a 465 grain .458 at 2500 fps, so a high energy ctg.

I would use same combo again just make a better first shot!

I think Ron is trying to make a 50 caliber equal penetration of a 375 or 416. And mere mortals just cant shoot that much gun.

Dan can probably tell us what velocity is required for decent penetraiton in a fifty caliber.

After watching me shoot the cow 4 times, my PH Myles McCallum, said of the 450 Dakota, "Lots of horsepower, that."

I think thats what Will means by energy.

Andy

In a 500 nitro, in test firing on dead elephants, I have gotten up to 6 feet of penetration (body shots) using a flat nose solid. A Woodleigh RN solid usually tops out at 5 feet. A RN brass solid, such as Barnes, has failed to exit on a broadside shot, which means somewhere between 3 and 4 feet of penetration. My theory is that the Barnes hemispherical round nose combined with its excessive length is the reason for its much shallower peneration. Divide all of these penetration numbers in about half for a frontal brain shot if the bullet hits the spine on the way out of the skull.

JPK,

I know I should keep my mouth shut but I doubt that the shots that resulted in brain-shot reactions were not truly brained. Most dangerously, I don't agree with Buzz's calls on some of the shots, and most likely the elephants were indeed brained, if not directly by the bullet, by a bone fragment that was driven into the brain cavity.

But without autopsies it is just speculation, though I am confident that I am right!

ALF!

Please reread my and WILL's posts. Neither one of us said that energy alone will kill. What we said was that if you don't get penetration to a vital spot that will kill then the energy of a suffeciently large bullet going at a reasonable speed may stop, turn or disable an elephant so that a follow up shot can kill an elephant before it escapes.

Although JPK makes a case for a close shot killing an elephant, I still have some reservations on that score. In the one case of a frontal shot missing the brain on Buzz's video I think he placed the brain a little low and the bullet may have actuall hit the brain. I'm not doubting JPK's statements just reserving my opinion until I see it for my self.

465H&H

quote:

My theory is that the Barnes hemispherical round nose combined with its excessive length is the reason for its much shallower peneration.

500 grains;
is your reasoning based on the longer bullet lenght causing excessive drag/friction? -----thus, reducing penetration
thanks

I have brained 5 elephants.
3 cows. 2 with the 450 No2 480 Woodleigh Solids at @ 2100 to 2150 fps. I guess I really should chrono those loads.
One frontal brain, not "head on" but a quarting fromntal brain, at 6 yards.
One at 12 yards side brain, slightly quarting side brain.
One with the 9,3x74R with 286 Woodleigh Solid, at 5 yards, complete penetration.
The 450 No2 round all exited the skull but due to the angle were contained in the elephant.

One bull, had been body shot at 120 yards, was brained at about 60 yards.
Byllet went through the top 2 inches of the right tusk, through the skull, contained in the body.
Second bull with the 450 North Fork Flat Nosed Solid at 2205fps.
Frontal brain at slightly less than 6 yards. This was a large headed Hwange bull. The bullet went through the head and deep into the body. It is the only head shot that was not recovered.

Both of the 450 No2 loads give plenty of penetration, with comfortable recoil.
The 9,3 is a pussycat to shoot.

I agree with 500 grains, why shoot an "elephant gun" that will hurt you almost as much as the elephant.

quote:

I'm a believer in Taylor's general theories, even though not a huge fan of his table and too strong effort to catogorize reactions.

Hi JPK,

My comment above related to the prior posting stating that an elephant would be incapacitated by a bullet passing near, but not necessarily hitting the brain, which was the basis for Taylor's theory. Taylor related in a notional sense the relationship of his Knock Out values to the time the elephant would be incapacitated, which I think provides some sense as to general effectiveness of a given caliber.

Will, 465,

Will, I think I know your feelings about some of the diagrams on Buzz's DVD and also on the projected shape of the kill zone.

Still, two epesodes on Buzz's video seem to clearly show off target brain shots leading to dead elephants. One is a poorly placed side brain shot on a bull that is well off the mark, the other is a cow killed by a closer side brain shot made by Norbert, I think. IIRC neither elephant showed the head up rear collapse; they simple fell over.

On my elephant it was a frontal brain shot and at the shot the elephant froze, then shuddered and the eyes went instantly and completely vacant. She simply fell on her side with no addional movement. I couldn't see her rear legs after she fell and we had to bug from the other elephants.

We opened her skull and the bullet path was clearly an inch or so over the center line of her brain, but we used an ax to open her so whether a splinter did the job or not is a question.

I would guess an elephant can be killed by a missed brain shot just as a boxer can be killed with a non penetrating heavy blow I think. But I'm never going to be coolaid drinking true believer til I see alot more.

Don,

Weakness in Taylor's tables are his reliance on blue sky factory velocity numbers and his use of bore diameter for some cartridges and land diameter for others. Also I think ther is too much variation in the shots and the elephants to make the predictions he did. Still, I'm a believer in his theories in general!

JPK

I am with Will about the shot markings in Buzz`s video. We have to take it with a grain of salt. It is is difficult to recognize the bullets entry from frame by frame observation. In a very clear scene of my best videographed frontal shot you see first a frame with no action, next the muzzle blast of the shot, but nothing to see at the ele´s head, only the following frame shows some darker markings on the head. But what do we see?
In a video of Mark Sullivan it is claimed we can see the bullet´s flight. That is impossible. May be we are subjected to some optical deception. I have some ideas, but not yet confirmed.
Best method to obseve the bullet´s path is to try to search it with a strong wire. If it was possible somehow, I did it:


I doubt, that a brain missed by about 6" is deadly. My experience is for about 2", for more they need a second shot. My .458 Lott SuperPenetrator (a sharp FN bullet) generates a high pressure in the ele´s head, what may cause the deadly effect of a near miss shot. With body shots on antelopes I observe, esp. on a cold day, a big fontain of blood and water vapour out of the exit hole, more than one meter long. A smaller one, but very observerable, comes out of the entry hole.

Norbert,

From your post, I take it that you do believe a close miss can be fatal. Is your assesment limited to cows only or bulls too? What sort of minimum limit to the bullet and velocity? The cow I'm talking about that died from an apparently 1" too high missed brain shot was hit with a .458" Woodleigh solid at a MV of about 2025fps.

I have seen the MS video in question. What is visible seems to be a vapor trail. You can see it progress from about a third of the way from the muzzle right to the buff in slow motion, and you can see the spiral from the bullets twist too, IIRC.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:

quote:

My theory is that the Barnes hemispherical round nose combined with its excessive length is the reason for its much shallower peneration.

500 grains;
is your reasoning based on the longer bullet lenght causing excessive drag/friction? -----thus, reducing penetration
thanks

There are a couple of things I am thinking of. First, the brass of the Barnes bullets is not very dense, making the bullets long. They are noticeably longer than TCCI brass solids of the same weight.

Second, all bullets yaw (tip side to side to an extent) both in air and in flesh. The longer the bullet, the greater the maximum lateral yaw distance. When a bullet yaws in flesh, the flesh exerts pressure on the side of the bullet as well as the bullet nose. And the more a bullet yaws, the quicker it will tumble and thereafter penetration rapidly halts.

A solution to the yaw problem is a faster barrel twist rate. However, using a particular twist rate, if two bullets of the same sectional density are used at the same velocity, all else being equal the longer will tumble sooner and stop penetrating sooner.

In contrast, brass flat nose solids penetrate very deeply. I think this is due to the cavitation bubble around the bullet created by the bullet by the flat nose. The cavitation bubble prevents flesh from touching the side of the bullet. At least until the bullet slows enough that the cavitation bubble collapses. But, all other factors being equal, the cavitation bubble increases penetration by 20% or more in my experience. Those who have experiemented with flat nose versus round nose bullets in artificial test media report even greater penetration by the flat nose compared to the round nose solid.

Finally, Woodleigh round nose solids seem to penetrate much better than hemispherical round nose solids (i.e., the old Barnes style). This may be due to the shorter length of the Woodleigh solid in a given bullet weight due to its denser material, or it may be in part due to nose shape. Perhaps one of our forumites can perform some experiments and let us know.

Website which may shed light on the subject:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Here is my elephant rifle formula:

9.5 lbs. (min.) to 10.5 lbs (max.)
10" twist barrel
22" (min.) to 24" (max.) barrel length
.510 caliber bullet, 570 grain FN solid
2450 to 2500 fps MV

Areas of the human body which may suffer from side-effects of that prescription:







The limited data that I have at hand indicates that use of a flat nose instead of a round bullet makes up for at least 200 fps of velocity, so I would consider downloading to the 2200 fps range with a flat nose rather than pushing to the 2400 to 2500 fps range.

Great one Daniel!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:

quote:

My theory is that the Barnes hemispherical round nose combined with its excessive length is the reason for its much shallower peneration.

500 grains;
is your reasoning based on the longer bullet lenght causing excessive drag/friction? -----thus, reducing penetration
thanks

There are a couple of things I am thinking of. First, the brass of the Barnes bullets is not very dense, making the bullets long. They are noticeably longer than TCCI brass solids of the same weight.

Second, all bullets yaw (tip side to side to an extent) both in air and in flesh. The longer the bullet, the greater the maximum lateral yaw distance. When a bullet yaws in flesh, the flesh exerts pressure on the side of the bullet as well as the bullet nose. And the more a bullet yaws, the quicker it will tumble and thereafter penetration rapidly halts.

A solution to the yaw problem is a faster barrel twist rate. However, using a particular twist rate, if two bullets of the same sectional density are used at the same velocity, all else being equal the longer will tumble sooner and stop penetrating sooner.

In contrast, brass flat nose solids penetrate very deeply. I think this is due to the cavitation bubble around the bullet created by the bullet by the flat nose. The cavitation bubble prevents flesh from touching the side of the bullet. At least until the bullet slows enough that the cavitation bubble collapses. But, all other factors being equal, the cavitation bubble increases penetration by 20% or more in my experience. Those who have experiemented with flat nose versus round nose bullets in artificial test media report even greater penetration by the flat nose compared to the round nose solid.

Finally, Woodleigh round nose solids seem to penetrate much better than hemispherical round nose solids (i.e., the old Barnes style). This may be due to the shorter length of the Woodleigh solid in a given bullet weight due to its denser material, or it may be in part due to nose shape. Perhaps one of our forumites can perform some experiments and let us know.

Website which may shed light on the subject:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm

thanks Dan--good stuff

JPK

quote:

From your post, I take it that you do believe a close miss can be fatal. Is your assesment limited to cows only or bulls too? What sort of minimum limit to the bullet and velocity?

No, a close miss can solve the problem, but not as much as 6". My assesment is for cow and bulls. There is no minimum limit as discussed in this forum, shot placement is the bill. The margin for near misses depends more on nose design.

Norbert,

Thanks for your reply. If you have Buzz's DVD, next time you watch it please take a close look at the episode of bull killed with a side brain shot. It is the one where the bull is at the top of a hillside above the hunters and siloueted against the sky. The bush, as I recall, is very dry, indicating a later season hunt.

Thanks,

JPK

.

Alf,

You are probably more familar w elephant skull's than I am, but here is a picture of mine cut in cross section. The skinner did this for Buzz's video, but cut it the wrong way!

None the less it is interesting because the skull as you can see, had ALOT more blood in it than you would have expected from a sinus like honeycomb construction.



The highlighted area in pink is my front on bullet path. A big jagged hole but no bone frags into brain.

The blue section is location of brain.

And here is another elephant skull cut the right way for the video. Since it was not a fresh kill the honeycomb area can be seen clearly.



I thouhgt Dan described why a long monometal does not penetrate as well as a FN or shorter and more dense conventional FMJ very well. The longer monometals both pitch and yaw, and therby have more Frontal Area than a bullet that stays point forward. It penetrates less for same reason an expanding bullet has less penetration than a FMJ. It has more frontal area to overcome.

Anyway these two photos show that the honeycomb cranium may have more liquid in it than you would think and may therefore be more suseptible to a high velocity pressure wave or the over pressure generated by a supersonic projectile.

Those of you who have killed alot of elephant or seen them butchered may want to comment. But I was surprised how much blood was in the skull.

Andy

The cow skull we cut open had a lot of fairly thick clear liquid in it. Thickness about the same as Aunt Jemima's pancake syrup, thicker than real maple syrup. Some blood too but mostly clear liquid. In fact, at every strike of the (dull) axe a spray of the liquid and bone fragments erupted.

We cut the skull open about 24hrs after its death.

JPK

.

Except for the two immedeatly preceeding your post. At least one of which deals with the skull of an elephant killed by a missed brain shot and which contained fluid and not air.

JPK

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

How does the author of this notion propose then that permanent and temporary cavities are formed when ogived and round nosed projectiles are fired into living tissue or fluids ? They all cavitate !

As you know Alf, round noses produce a significantly smaller cavitation bubble, which at least in part explains their shallower penetration.

.

I am not sure that flat nosed solids do penetrate deeper than round nosed solids.

I think it depends on the media. I think they may well create a cavity and penetrate deeper in water or ballistic gell but they won't create that cavity in hard bone and may penetrate even less in hard bone.

Because an elephant's skull has so many empty spaces and spongy bone containing liquid it may be that this flat nose theory works on that kind of liquid filled bone in parts of an elephants skull. But hard bone is different.

For example, I have never seen a round nosed solid in a 375 H&H stopped by a hippo's skull. I have seen a 300 grain Federal flat nosed sledge hammer solid stopped by a hippo skull after penetrating through the heavy neck muscle from behind. I have seen the same kind of solid bent into an L shape in hitting a buffalo.

I have heard a rumour but cannot confirm it that Danny MaCallum, one of the most experienced professional hunters in Africa, has a poor opinion of flat nosed solids from actual use on game and on not water, ballistic gel or plywood boards.

He has a web site. Why not ask him?

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Ted Gorsline,

500 Grains has tested flat nosed homogenous solids (Bridger, GS Custom, Noth Fork?)) vs FMJ round nosed solids (Woodleighs) vs hemisherical nosed homogenous solids (the older Barnes) in elephants and buffalo.

His results are reported here, somewhere, in African Hunter magazine, in the book Ndlovu and elsewhere. You should do a search here and read the results.

A quick summary:

Woodleighs and homogenous flat nose solids show similar penetration in elephant skulls. Hemisherical homogenous solids fall short.

Flat nose solids penetrated +/- 20% deeper than Woodleighs on body shots to elephant and buffalo. Hemisherical homogenous solids again fall short of both the flat nose homogenous and Woodleigh FMJ.

Alf,

I understand that bull skulls contain less fluid than cow skulls. We cut open a cow skull. There was much more fluid in the skull than can be accounted for from wet or seeping bone, indicating that the cavities themselves contained fluid. This elephant had been killed 24hrs prior to cutting her skull and an axe was used. It is possible that the delay allowed fluid to migrate from the bone into the cavities.

Do your sources indicate any time delay from death to examination? I wonder what delay there might have been with Andy's elephant. Long delay leads to dry skulls, air in lieu of fluid and brittle bone.

This fall I will cut open a few skulls imeadiately after death and with a (hopefully) chainsaw or hand saw. I fully expect to find fluid throughout the cow skulls. But perhaps...

JPK

.

Alf,

Am I right in assuming you agree with the following:

Stability is enhanced by virtue of:

1. when the bullet's COG and COP is closer to each other
2. a FN is less likely to veer off purely by its nose shape (geometry)
3. Length of bullet is not the primary issue, but rather the SF value (stability factor) of the bullet.

Point 3 must be evaluated in terms of the stability teory, if it has any relevance, and in that regard I offer the following control data, which we can refer to in terms of our practical experience on game or even test media:

416 Rigby --- 400gr RN Solid --- SF=1.52
375 H&H ----- 300gr RN Solid --- SF=1.99

Another aspect/variable is the distance on impact - before or after the bullet has gone to 'sleep'.

I do not like the notion that short and stubby bullets are more stable and less likely to tumble than longer ones as a system of evaluation. What is your idea on this and how are the SF values, as a sytem, supposed to help us on this one.

(The SF theory purports to account for the following factors - the specific gravity of the material, length of bullet, diameter of bullet, length of nose, width of meplat, shape of nose and boat tail in relation to the rate of twist. In other words the density, measurements and shape at the ends of the bullet related to the induced spin rate in air.)

Chris

Dear JPK and Alf,

Very interesting stuff. I will do a search on it. Many years ago when round nosed solids were all that were available I thought flat nosed solids might be the best thing to use if they fed.

The shot I was thinking about was on charging buffalo on top of the nose immediately below the eye level. I saw a couple of lead filled FMJ solids bend on that shot and thought maybe a flat nosed solid might dig in and keep the bullet going straight and keep it from deflecting. The end of the nose is soft but under the eyes the bone is hard.

I was hoping to get increased penetration because of the bullet staying on track and not because of any kind of air bubble developing ahead of the bullet.

When Trophy bonded came out with flat nosed solids I thought they might be the cat's meow but then seeing one stop on the back of a hippo's skull and another bend into an L shape made me think the larger surface area of the flat nose put the brakes on the bullet and stopped penetration alot quicker than on a round nose solid which would conconcentrate its energy on a small point instead of on a wide point and cause the bone to cave in.

Then I heard second hand that Danny MaCallum had trouble with flat nosed solids but I am not sure why.

Anyhow I could be wrong.

Another thing. I read on the internet about 500 grain 45-70 bullets going at about 1,500 FPS being great penetrators when Dan Landry from National Parks in Zimbabwe told me he had to up the speed of 458's much above that to get any kind of useful penetration on elephant. He was only geting 1600 fps with some factory ammo.

Another very odd penetration test was in one of Parker Ackley's two books. He writes about shooting a steel plate with a 30-06 FMJ and only denting it and then shooting the same plate with a 220 swift soft nosed bullet and blowing right through the steel plate.

I like to keep testing things out to see what works. Most of my shooting has been with 465 grain A-Square mono solids in a 450 Ackley and they work fine.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Ted,

A lot of the 45/70 stuff is based on penetration in wet news print. Many very odd results. Apparently a low velocity bullet parts the wet paper while a higher velocity bullet tears a larger than calibre wad and continues to push this through, adding more as it goes and effectively adding diameter and weight thus greatly decreasing its effective sectional density from original and reducing penetration. No 45/70 test of a similar nature on game that I'm aware of, though I have been told by a witness that a 45/70 shooting a +/-500 grain bullet fully penetrated the skull of a recently killed elephant on a side brain shot. Tougher angles and from the front and I gotta think it would come up WAY short.

All of my reading says you need to stay above 2000fps for adequate penetration on elephant with a .458" 500 grain bullet. Richard Harland and Ron Thomson, both of whom culled thousands of elephant for Zim Parks were happy with 458wm round nosed solids at an apparent 2040fps or so. Neither mention any failures in their books.

A bit more would be better I recon.

Also I shouyld have noted that 500 Grains test results showed that the flat nose solids left larger wound channels in both elephant skulls and elephant and buff bodies.

JPK

There are some misinterpretation and misunderstanding in this thread. Much is corrected in the posts above. But to make it clear:

The cavitation bubble of water vapour doesn´t generate new magic forces. A well designed FN shows just a more stable bubble and so more penetration than a conventional RN, the shallowest penetration is with a hemisperical nose. The penetration is limited when the bubble collapses, the FN shows the most stable bubble. After collapsing the bullet tumbles and may veer off course. There is no need to explain it with newtonian (ideal) fluid mechanics, we are dealing with real fluids.

In bone the FN naturally shows lower penetration than a conventional nose design. In my experiments about 10% (Woodleigh FMJ vs. SuperPenetrator).
And of course, there is no bubble generated. But what does that matter? In an animal about 90% of the bullets path is in aqueous tissue, and after passing a bone, the bubble is build up anew.
If we discuss the frontal head shot on ele, I think we still have only 50 % bullet path in bone. Normally the Kynoch nose shape (Woodleigh) is sufficient.
At least for ele cows it is well established, that the honeycomb structure is filled with liquid. The observations of Andy and JPK are confirming this. Especially with FN bullets, which are generating a considerable hydrostatic pressure wave, the concussion of the brain even with near misses can be deadly. All to take with a grain of salt. The effect of a near miss depends on many variables: Nose design and magnitude of the pressure wave, location of the bullet path with respect to the brain. In my experience a frontal near miss of about 2" was always deadly, but with side shots I needed a second shot to finish.

If it matters I can confirm the observations of JPK and Andy on fluids in the honey comb structure of elephany heads. I also noticed fluid in the honey comb spaces on a cow that I shot this year and a lack of fluid in the two bulls. I wonder why the difference between the sexes? Possibly since bulls butt heads a dry interspce reduces the affect of the head bumping. What advantage there is to cows having the fluid is a mystery to me. This one aspect of elephant morphology that has not been mentioned in the literature to my knowledge.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I also noticed fluid in the honey comb spaces on a cow that I shot this year and a lack of fluid in the two bulls.

Because men are airheads?

500grns!

Have you been talking to my wife?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
What advantage there is to cows having the fluid is a mystery to me. 465H&H

Perhaps the advantage lies with the male in not having excessive fluid within a skull already immense, taxing to the skeletal structure and potentially supporting far heavier ivory.

Nickudu's comment leads me to wonder if bull skulls either contain fluid close to the brain but not close to the surface or whether bull skulls start full of fluid and either keep the samr amount of fluid even as their skulls grow or loose fluid as they age and their ivory grows.

I imagine this information was availble post cull. I wonder if antone ever looked into it.

JPK