I am wondering if any caliber/bullet combination is capable of fully penetrating an elephant on a lung/high heart shot. I have not gotten exit wounds on elephants with the 465 H&H and 470 Nitro calibers when taken with this shot placement. Any experiences or opinions successful or not would be appreciated.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
I have heard that the 4 Bore gets good penetration on elephants. I read an article on it awhile back. I will try to dig it up for you.

ummmmmmmm no... but dig up the article if you can.

Smallfry,

Found the article and reread it, the first part of it was hunting ele, and the second was buff with the 4 bore. Turns out the 4 bore didn't get complete penetration on the buff, but did create a massive wound channel.

I have shot a couple of elephants but I don't personally know about full body penetration on a elephant. A couple of PH with alot of elephant experience told me that a 375 quite often will exit, a 458 never does and a 470 sometimes does.

Mark

There is a nasty rumor about clem shooting some pomy jornalist with a shot from a .375 (A square round) that went straight through the jumbo and hit the jornalist who was lurking on the other side of the herd filming the nasty parks officers participating in the massicre of poor elephants. Said pomy died. It is also malicious rumor that Clem admitted that out of the 16,000 elephant he shot, that was the first one he had ever missed...

Seriously. I have never had a 9,3 exit after passing through a leg bone, but otherwise yes.

Oh no, another outrageous 9.3x62 story. APPARENTLY THAT WROUND CAN DO NO WRONG!

I have never had a pass thru. Just too much stuff to go thru in most cases I guess.

Insurance lung/heart shot on a dead ele always exited with my .458 Lott SuperPenetrator ( FN solid). The crew tried to recover the bullet in the ground, but with no success.

I have a recovered 470 Woodleigh solid from Elephant I killed in the Gwayi in 2001. Heart lung shot at about 10 meters. Bullet must have hit a rib going in or on off side as it is .436 x .494 right at the crimp groove and is SLIGHTLY bent thru the crimp groove. The lead protrudes from the rear about 1/32" probably from the rifling compression. The bullet was recovered IN the skin on the off side. This was a Federal Premium Safari factory load with 500gr Woodleigh solids. Don't know what more you could ask for in performance.

I shot one ele bull with a .375 using woodleigh solids. First shot in the armpit as the bull stepped forward broke the offside shoulder. The second shot entered behind the ribs as the bull turned away and was recovered from the heart. The second shot had to have at least five feet of penetration if my anatomy serves me correctly.

I'm certainly not very experienced as I've only killed two elephants. Both first shots into each were in the heart-lung area.

On the first, the Searcy .470 (Butch's 2230fps load with Woodleigh solids) exited between ribs on the far side. The second shot into this elephant was within inches of the first, breaking the front shoulder (dumping the elephant) and was recovered with the slightest deformation and the little "poop" of lead out of the core described above.

This years elephant promptly died, but the same load/bullet didn't exit and wasn't recovered.

416 Rigby GS flatnose recovered a few yards other side of body shot side-on ele cow. +/- 1400fps. Charlie.

Will, I notice that Denis Lyell - on whom you seem to model yourself, was a noted small bore fan. He preferred a .303 for elephant although occasionally he used a "heavy" like a .318.

Could it be that, apart from the length of the grass in the photo's in your book, another difference between you and Denis is that Denis could shoot straight

Gee, what a cheap shot!

I don't know whether to believe Lyell or not. His budddy, Stigand, also a small bore fan, almost got himself killed a few times.

My experiences with the body shot are statistically insignificant as I only remember doing it 4 or 5 times. Because I never had a pass through doesn't mean much.

Next time, when I feel Lyell-ish, or maybe better, Hemingway-ish, I'll try the 9.3x62.

(P.S. - At least I have video to prove I can shoot straight. )

I have had 2 shoot throughs with my 500J on a non trophy bull. An average sized body obviously nevertheless following a heart / shoulder shot I sent another 2 rounds into the animal as it turned and headed off in the lung area. Both these were 570gr Woodleigh solids at 2200fps and they were through and throughs broadside. BTW I had the 500J built to shoot elephant even though i had a .465H&H because I wanted more penetration. I reckon the 500J has similar or slightly better penetration to the 375H&H with good 300gr solids but with that much greater frontal area.
APB

For what it is worth, I recall reading a story perhaps 35 years ago or so that reported two seperate cases of a 577 shooting lengthwise through two mature bull elephants. One shot was from the back with the bullet exiting the chest and the other shot was into the chest area with the bullet exiting the hip. I can not recall the author nor the publication, but it was a "major" publication at the time, which "may" add to the credibility of this story. I have never seen this story retold though in the ensuing years.

Sorry Will - Woke up grumpy this morning. The best penetration I have ever seen documented was Roy Vincents stem to stern shot on an ele cow using his 460 Weatherby. Regular Hornidy 500grn bullets at full speed.

I have gotten full broadside penetration on ele cows using flat nose solids in the .500 NE, but not with round nose. Mature ele bulls are likely to be a completely different story.

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
I have heard that the 4 Bore gets good penetration on elephants. I read an article on it awhile back. I will try to dig it up for you.

ummmmmmmm no... but dig up the article if you can.

Smallfry,

I e-mailed John Ross, he wrote a book called "Unintended Consequences" most of the book was based on fact, and I knew he owned a Rodda 4 Bore. I asked him about penetration.

Ross's Reply

"I killed two elephant and two buffalo in Africa with my 4-bore in 1983 and have
it on film. Complete penetration twice on the elephant and 1 buff all shot broadside, and bullet lodged under the skin of the left
shoulder after smashing the right hip and traversing 5 feet of animal on the
running buff.

Bullet 2040 grain conical at 1410 FPS. AMAZING penetration. Guys with 4 bores
who get low penetration either are using weak loads or are shooting expanding
bullets."

Bullet 2040 grain conical at 1410 FPS. AMAZING penetration. Guys with 4 bores I am testing a truncated radius cone of my own making... it is a hollow base that is 1.25 diameters in weight or aprox 2200 grains. I doubt mine will penetrate 5' but I wont know till I try it, and that wont happen until I am happy with what I am sending down my barrel. Typical 4 bore loads that I have shot, havent penetrated much... not all have been sissy load eather. Perhaps people with more exp. than I can chime in. Anyone?

I have shot a ele bull with my 577 Tyrannosaur. A broadside shot with a Woodleigh 750 FMJ at 2150 f/s (had to load it down to shoot to same point of aim as some factory loaded Dead Tough soft points) penetrated through him and was found in the off side skin.
On the dead ele I tested some full house loads (Barnes 750 mono solids at 2600 f/s). One shot angling from behind through last rib - full penetration and exit out opposite shoulder. Two shots into chest frontally was traced down into the intestines but lost.
I am looking forward to try some 800 grs GS FN`s on ele soon..

Just back from an ele hunt...

1st shot. .458 Lott, Hornady 500grn (one of the new brass cloured bullets). Perfect frontal brain shot that crumpled the ele in a flsh- but the bullet exited rear left of skull and hit a young bull in the trunk. Bullet must have turned slightly because the ele was in full charge and the shot was perfectly straight on.

Anyway after much argument, it was decided that the "wounded" bull would have to be put down- A cotton bud in it's nose and a couple of hours and it would have been fine... but anyway, let the appy shoot it. (he had knocked the front sight off his .458) so used my 9,3. 286grn Woodleigh. Again, frontal brain and bullet came out about three verteba back in the neck. - to be fari though it was not a big bull- 15lbs a a side!

So what is/are the conclusion/s here?

The Lott has too much penetration? The 9.3 has too much penetration? The PH shouldn't have let the client shoot with another elephant in such close proximity? Bring out the 30-06?

Cannot have too much penetration if hunting ele bulls. Cows... views may differ on that one but I still want all the penetration I can get.

By WILL!

quote:

The PH shouldn't have let the client shoot with another elephant in such close proximity?

Will! You don't think the PH should let the client be killed by a bull in full charge rather then risk hitting another elephant do you?



465H&H

Will,
Your book was great.
I am inspired to hunt jumbo for sure now. Walter Mitty-ing along your tracks, through the reading of your tome, has helped me get past the extra buffalo, the lion, and the leopard. They are just the candy that may be enjoyed later. All I need is to keep my freezer full of bison ... and bag some elephants "on a pauper's budget." The challenge is set. The die is cast.

Broadside penetration of elephant body or skull is obviously no problem with the proper FN solid of proper velocity. But how about the Portuguese-Texan Heart Shot that might be a remote possibility of need?

I know a GSC FN .510 cal/570 grainer at 2400 fps will reliably penetrate a north bound, one-ton bison from tail to tonsils, and the bullet will continue on toward polar orbit. This is with a 10" twist barrel, if that matters.

Here is my elephant rifle formula:

9.5 lbs. (min.) to 10.5 lbs (max.)
10" twist barrel
22" (min.) to 24" (max.) barrel length
.510 caliber bullet, 570 grain FN solid
2450 to 2500 fps MV

It would seem that only a bolt action rifle is capable of such fail-safe ballistics.

Anything bigger of bore or heavier to carry is just excessive or plain silly.

I have seen the .510/570gr XLC "soft" point expander at 2400 fps smack a bison plumb over sideways on impact, which is gratifying.

The reason for even going as big as .510/570gr is this gratifying punch, that can still be shot well/accurately from any position, and carried all day by a mere mortal.

The rhino can wait too.

Ganyana,
It is obvious that the Hornady brass solid with ROUND NOSE veered off course due to its instability. Only a FLAT NOSE solid can be relied upon to penetrate in a straight line.

Best of best: GSC FN and North Fork FP, of monometal copper and true driving bands.

Barnes brass "ogive-flat-point" solids with multiple cannelures (not truly banded and not truly truncated cones) are better than any round nose.

Bridger Flat Nose solids of brass would be great if they were obtainable.

Don't blame the elephant for turning his head as the bullet transited his skull.

I could not get a round nosed solid of any type to stay on a straight course in the "Portuguese Iron Buffalo" penetration tests with alternating plywood and water. The GSC FN's and North Fork FP's would stay straight and go twice as far without tumbling, compared to the RN solids.

GSC FN's and North Fork FP's always fly laser straight. They do the same through game too, on the 3/4 ton cape buffalo and even bigger bison that I have tried them on.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Here is my elephant rifle formula:

9.5 lbs. (min.) to 10.5 lbs (max.)
10" twist barrel
22" (min.) to 24" (max.) barrel length
.510 caliber bullet, 570 grain FN solid
2450 to 2500 fps MV

Areas of the human body which may suffer from side-effects of that prescription:







The limited data that I have at hand indicates that use of a flat nose instead of a round bullet makes up for at least 200 fps of velocity, so I would consider downloading to the 2200 fps range with a flat nose rather than pushing to the 2400 to 2500 fps range.

500grains,

Oh come, come....we are only talking about 122 ft-lbs of recoil here with this suggested round and rifle weight.....hardly worth making a video of the shooting of this combination....

I have a friend who is a PH and found an Italian-made (don't know the brand) .500 Jeffery that weighed less than 10#'s. He is a handloader and eagerly made up some 570 grain bullets at 2400fps. He shot exactly once and pulled the bullets (with double vision) and reloaded 200 fps slower. He is now shooting a flatnose bullet that is not GS, but South African made and they seem to do just fine at killing buffalo and elephant that client's bullets didn't put down rapidly enough.

As for me, I'd want at least 12 pounds, maybe more for 570 grains at 2500 fps.... or a swivel mount on a half-track.

At some point recoil levels get beyond the level that most hunters can tolerate and still place accurate follow up shots. In addition, the rifle must stay at a weight that can be comfortably carried on a 12 mile walk about. For me 10 1/2 lbs and the level of recoil of a 500 Niro with 570 gr bullets going 2200 fps is at my upper limits and I prefer something with less recoil. It seems that the 450 - 475 british nitro calibers do that with all the stopping power one needs to be safe while hunting elephants. Even that level of power is not needed to safely hunt buffalo.

465H&H

Whimps!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ganyana,
It is obvious that the Hornady brass solid with ROUND NOSE veered off course due to its instability. Only a FLAT NOSE solid can be relied upon to penetrate in a straight line.
...

What?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ganyana,
It is obvious that the Hornady brass solid with ROUND NOSE veered off course due to its instability. Only a FLAT NOSE solid can be relied upon to penetrate in a straight line.
...

What?

BTT

Gerard,
I believe your design is vindicated.

Nobody seems to argue with this.

In fact everybody seems to be copying the GSC FN, though nobody else has got it quite as perfect yet.

RIP,

I guess I'm just a wuss. My 416 Rem weighs 10.2 pounds (with scope), and I would not want to shoot more than 400 grains at 2500 fps in it.

The 370 grain NF solids at 2600 fps are a handful!

Ron,

Dan left out one area of the human body affected by the 570 grain at 2500 fps, your tail bone which will be broken when you get tipped over backwards with a 9.5 pound rifle!

After missing the brain w a 450 Dakota by a couple inches I think better shot placement is more important than more recoil.

You are smart to take a relatively light rifle but jeez back off the powder a little bit!

And make sure your bolt gun feeds those flat nose bullets. At nine or ten paces, reliability is more important than anything else.

Andy

You need placement, penetration, and power (actually energy instead of power, but it doesn't rhime!).

One can talk the talk all they want about making perfect placement and having super penetration, but when those just happen to fail, all that is left is power (ok, energy).

Which is why not all the old-timers were using 7x57's. At least not the ones that lived to tell about it.

.

ALF!
To follow up on WILL's post, when the shot isn't placed quite right on a head shot on elephant several things can happen:
1. The elephant will shake his head on the hit, turn and run off.
2. The elephant will be knocked down but immediately jump up and run off.
3. The elephant will be knocked down but be unable to get up.
4. The elephant will be knocked down and also knocked out.
5. The bullet will travel below the brain but hit the spine and kill the elephant.

In case 1, you may or may not have time to place a killing shot into the elephant. If not the odds are that it is a wounded and lost elephant.

In cases 2, 3 and 4 you can usually get that follow up killing shot into the elephant.

You are more likely to get the case 2, 3 and 4 result if you use a large caliber, heavy bullet with good sectional density then when using a smaller caliber, lighter weight bullet.

This result is especially important if the elephant is charging you as he may not turn and run on a head shot that misses the brain if you are using a rifle that isn't in the stopping rifle class.

465H&H

Rip

Zim parks began using a flat nosed mono metal bullet with three driving bands (very similar to current barnes solids on an experimental basis in 1992 and almost exclusively for the 1993 cull- despite what Art Alphin said!

That said, I use Woodleigh solids in my 9,3 (which are pretty well neigh on flat nosed) and am very happy with their performance.

Taylor didn't like the more pointed design in the .470 which has been carried over to today, prefering the blunter designs then available. Perhaps he knew something

.