Alf,

What you say is contrary to both conventional wisdom and field reports.

1. Field reports show FN solids penetrating deeper than RN solids, AND producing a larger than bullet diameter permanent wound channels.

2. Conventional wisdom says that bullets that expand do not penetrate as deep as non-deforming bullets. If CW were correct then your expansion theory would have FN solids penetrating shallowly.

Below is a re-run of a pic of GS Custom bullets that I have posted a few times before.

From left (all GS Custom):

(1) unfired 570 grain 500 Nitro Express bullet
(2) 570 grain 500 NE bullet fired into elephant (frontal brain) - penetrated 74 inches, but missed neck vertebrae
(3) 570 grain 500 NE bullet fired into elephant (frontal brain) - penetrated 31 inches and stuck in neck vertebrae
(4) 570 grain bullet fired into buffalo (body shot) - penetrated 60 inches
(5) unfired 500 grain .470 Capstick bullet
(6) 500 grain .474" bullet fired into buffalo (body shot) - penetrated 56"
(7) 500 grain .474" bullet fired into giraffe (body shot) - penetrated 40"





Given some of the penetration depths and the fact that I found most of the bullets in a nose-forward position (some were initially located by others), I cannot accept that they were unstable. Some of the body shots did not hit bone on the way in so there were no secondary projectiles to consider. And the nose dents on the bullets are not significant enough IMO to explain significantly larger wound channels produced by FN solids. Also, similar wound channels are seen with Bridger FN solids even though those (brass) bullets seldom dent.

So we are left only with supercavitation to explain the larger wound channels and greater penetration achieved by flat nose solids.

As for the authors you cite, unless they were experimenting with flat nose solids at rifle velocities, I would not be tempted to draw broad conclusions from their work.

Saeed would appriciate this.

I assumed an elephants head was more like a solid than a liquid, and tested FMJ RN, monolothic RN and TC-FN in a wood stop box. the TC-FN and RN-FN always had less penetration than the RN of similar bullet weight.

then I met 500 grains.

So I tested a few of them in water and the FN always out penetrated the RN, often by double.

then I went elephant hunting.

the RN had great penetration in body shot (water) and lousy penetration on head.

Just the opposite of what you would expect from BOTH tests!

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Norbert:
Insurance lung/heart shot on a dead ele always exited with my .458 Lott SuperPenetrator ( FN solid). The crew tried to recover the bullet in the ground, but with no success.

Hell! Maybe that bullet went all the way through the Earth!

I fired two 500/450NE Woodliegh solids into the heart lung area of a big bull ele, and the PH fired two 450NE solids in the same place, and all four were found in the off side lung. This bull belonged to a friend of mine, who put the first brain shot attempt a little off center, and we fired on him as he turned to run. My friend's second shot found the brain from a rear quartering shot to the base of the neck. All these shots were between 15yds,for the first shot to the head, and 30 yds for the last shot to the neck/brain going away. I'd say mine, and the PH's shots were at around 20 yds!

.

If I didn't get full penetration does that mean I'm still a virgin ?????????????.............................JJ

This may seem off topic but read it all the way through. 30 years ago I had a experience that showed me how water can move through a solid object. I would do the brick breaking demos for a martial arts school I was training at. My 63 belaire had a leaky trunk and my stack of garden slabs got wet, they were heavier than normal and darker in color but not wet to the touch They measured 16x8x2 inches in size. The setup was two football players holding the brick and two big guys holding the arms of the ball players. I step in and hit the brick with a straight lunging punch. I hit it hard enough to knock all four guys back , the two ball players were hit with a fine spray of mist coming out of the brick. enough mist that they felt it and it was visable on ther faces. The brick did not break but it felt as if it had flexed. I can't tell you how much energy was involved, I weighed 185 lbs and was quite fast. If my punch could put the water that was in the bick into motion ,as a wave of mist two foot in dia able to travel arms length to the face and shirts of the men holding the brick, I can see how a 500 gr flat nose solid
has the potential to have a hydrostactic (spelling) impack on living tissue. I have seen bullet impack on plains game in my scope and a fine red mist resulting that was not arterial.

JD

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Alf,

500 Grains did test the Barnes fully henisherical bullets, the older style before the groves and the flats on the noses. He reports that they penetrated the least compared to Woodleighs and the GS, Bridger...flat nosed bullets. This in both frontal shots and body shots.

The bridgers that 500 Grains has displayed show no significant deformation when compared to the GS and apparently performance between the two was essentially equal.

Also what are your thoughts on JD's obsrvation.

It seems to me that the studies and models you site don't account for observed results and yet you make a strong arguement that pure "supercavitation" isn't the cause of observed results either.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
500 gr:

Looking at your pictures posted I note that each and very one of the FN bullets that were retrieved are actually deformed. So deformation did take place. Based on the "rules" as described by Fackler and others the permanent cavity as well as temporary cavity must be much bigger than during the NC phase of penetration.

What is more the deformation in some instances are not symmetrical, thus we are now dealing with asymmetrical projectiles and by all acounts should from the point of gyroscopic stability show greater instability.

If on the other hand you claim and we assume supercavitation as in water all the fired projectiles would face serious problems with regards to their ability to maintain symmetrical cavitation bubbles as the cavitators are now deformed?

Alf, 2 of the bullets in the pic did not deform. And as I mentioned above, I got similar results with Bridger brass FN solids even when they did not dent or deform. Further, for the GS bullets that deformed, most of them had only minor dents. So I do not think we can attribute the superior penetration to bullet deformation. ANd if more deformation means deeper penetration, wouldn't softs penetrate deeper than solids?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Something else to consider, has anyone gone head to head between the old A-Square monometal solids and one of these new FN's under exactly similar conditions ?

I do not even claim that 2 bullets fired into the same dead elephant from the same gun are exactly similar conditions due to variation of the internal tissue of the animal which can markedly influence penetration results.

Now, as to bullet stability, recall the old FMJ bullets that tumbled, dented at their base and squirted their core out? The base got dented because the bullet tumbled. None of the GS bullets pictured has a dented base. These bullets stayed nose forward for the entire route.

Hey, 500 grains, it's summer. Give us a new pic.

.

Explaining the mechanism fully would be grand.

I am not researching this but think about it now and then.

Maybe the efficiency in penetration of the truncated cone flat nose is related to its supercavitation in fluids or liquids.

Maybe the flat nose is more efficient at creating higher pressure and heat transfer focused at the center of the leading edge of the bullet? Water turns to vapor or high pressure steam. Bone and muscle contain this water in variable content, but enough, in all living tissue. Bone and muscle are both elastic enough to expand with the passage of a pressure front layer, maybe not a full blown "bubble" or "supercavitation" but a drag decreasing layer or "penetration-lubricity" that the bullet is generating, somehow.

Narrow-channel and greater-than-caliber wounds could be explained by varying mechanisms along the way with velocity changes, instability eventually rearing its head, etc.

If the FN or FP can supercavitate in liquid along the way, it will. This certainly stabilizes the linear track and aids penetration.

In solids/tissues/organs with trapped water (blood, lymph, CSF, and possibly cytoplasm itself vaporizing under pressure and heat transfer of the focused smash of the flat nose), maybe the tissues are parted elastically and reduce drag on the bullet with a thin layer of steam or vapor trailing off the leading flat.

The very fact that the substantial FN leading edge is perpendicular to the track of the bullet creates a huge difference from the round nose, where the only source of an axial force vector is through an infinitesimal "point" at the center of the round nose.

Obvious.

I have not given up on simple shoulder stabilization either, but I think pressure and heat transfer are important, just as is the elasticity of even bone.

Aside from the permanent wound channel generation, all other energy expended is heat.

5000 ft lbs of bullet kinetic energy would raise the core temperature of a ton of live critter only a fraction of a degree, whether F or C.

Shoot a bullet into a swimming pool and the only thing you accomplish is to warm the swimming pool a "micro" degree, as the bullet settles gently to the bottom of the pool.

Yet all those BTU's focused at the nose of the bullet has got to be doing something. All the heat transfer spreads out from that nose.

Hey Ron

You ever going to shoot those dang cylinder 416s? If not, send them back and I'll line up a bunch of water buckets myself. I made them to scratch a curiosity itch, and it still itches.

Mike

I have shot 5 elephants in the head.
One with the 9,3x74R, 286 Woodleigh Solid.
3 with 480 Woodleigh Solids, and one with a 450 North Fork Flat Point, all from my 450 No2.
The 9,3 was at <5 yards on a cow, complete pass through.
The Woodleigh's from the 450 No2 were quarterting frontal at 6 yards and side at a pretty good angle at 12 yards on cows,and on a bull just slightly off frontal at @ 50 to 60 yards.
All the woodleighs were recovered in the neck area just past the brain cavity.
I shot one bull at < 6 yards, straight frontal, with the 450 NFFP. That bullet penetrated so far into the body cavity we could not find it.
I hope to shoot more elephants with the North Fork FP on Oct.
I am "almost" of the opinion that the Flat Point solids penetgrate quite a bit farther than RN solids.
I hope to have more info in Oct.

One, this time take a metal detector

Two, check your email

Hey Mike,
I will get those 10 slugs mailed to you. I have lost my backyard-garden-hose-equipped shooting range due to housing construction nextdoor. I refuse to carry pond water in a pail for the Iron Buffalo.

You may recall my Iron Buffalo test medium: 4-layer truck innertube entry port and alternating 8.5" thick water bags and 1/2" thick plywood. This may be poo-pooed as "not the real thing," however, it told me all I needed to know. I will agree that the water layers allow supercavitation and skew the results in favor of the truncated cone flat nose solid, but the boards would add some solid "tissue" to the mix, and serve as witness to keyholing, telling when it started.

Relativity of penetrators, approximate scale of 0 to 10 (roughly how many compartments, waterbag plus board, were fully penetrated before keyholing occurred, and once keyholing occurred, the next board would stop the solid cold):

10: North Fork FP and GSC FN solids

7: North Fork Cup Point

4: Woodleigh Roundnose FMJ

3: Barnes Roundnose Monolithic Brass solid

The long brass roundnose solids are definitely the worst in the Iron Buffalo. They keyholed and veered off track first. They were the only ones to veer out the sides of the Iron Buffalo and damage the angle iron brackets holding the boards.

Job and family issues have curtailed my pond water toting opportunities, so it is best that I return the 10 slugs to you for use in scratching your intellectual itch:

Does a straight cylindrical copper slug penetrate better or worse than a truncated cone flat point of smaller meplat but same caliber and weight and velocity? What is the balance of drag versus the mysterious flat nose effect?

Maybe perfect cylindrical slugs could be used in a double or single shot? They might put the hurt on DG quite nicely.

Mike e mail check done, reply on the way.
I am thinking about getting a Garrett hand held "wand". I will have to test one out.

I wonder if one of the reasons the driving band equiped flat nosed solids apparently penetrate further isn't the driving bands themselves.

The driving bands may greatly reduce friction by introducing air or cavitation along the otherwise parrallel or near parrallel sides.

For an example of this idea at work, take a look at any recent go fast boat. On the bottom of the boat you will find one or more "steps" used to break up the flow and thus friction. Faster boats have multiple "steps".

This might also explain larger than calibre wound chanels as well.

Super cavitation may be an answer, and my theory might have some merit. It seems that the studies Alf has reffered to don't provide an answer since observed results don't match their predicted results, but they cast doubt on supercavitation as the answer.

JPK

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I have another example of how energy moves from one item to another. If I took a stack of 3 garden slabs and put them together with out a air gap (solid) the stack would break from the bottom side, If any of the bricks would fail to break it would be the top one. It got to were I could break only the bottom brick or the bottom two,I could place a soft pine board on top of the 3 bricks and leave the board unbroken. What does all this mean to the discussion, Think of my fist as a big old flat nose slow moving bullet, My first post showed an example how energy from the punch could move a wave water the form of mist out in front of my fist,the second showed that if my fist were to go through the stack of bricks I had to generate enough energy and momentum to break the stack on the far side. If the stack broke I would have little or no pain ,If it did not it hurt like hell. I think this is an example of every action has a reverse action. Think of this as a soft point bullet ( the engery is deforming the bullet instead of moving in front of the bullet as a wave of energy). This is why a solid goes deeper than a soft point. I think that flat tipped bullets track straighter because they focis a wider wave of engery in front of the bullet as long as the engery and momentum excede the threshold neccesary to break through the mass infront of i, it will track straight. Round nose focis this engery in a smaller dia cone allow some engery transfer back to the face of the bullet. As the round runs out of steam so to speak I think there is uneven engery transfer from the mass being struck and the face of the bullet causing it to depart its line of travel away from the hard side. When student failed to beak his board or brick it was generaly cause by not hitting hard enough,or buy allow his wrist to bend. Examples of not enough gun or bad bullet constuction.
This is a stuff I could feel, I hope it helps.
This was all done 30 years ago,I am now paying for my sins so to speak, do not try any of this your self !!!!

JD

JPK
I play with mud boats, evey time I got one stuck it was because mud would work it way up the side of the boat, I stared building them with a compound angle at the chine redirecting the mud away from the side, (like a chip break on a cutting tool) this did more to reduce friction than any thing else I tried. I think the flat metaplate of a kieth style bullet does the same. When I added a Pad down the middle to get a different ground plane effect along the center of the boats and the sides along with a trick chine they flew.

JD

JPK

Basically you are talking about the same affect as vortex generators in an aerodynamic application; in general, to create small turbulent eddies that wipe away the stagnent boundary layer. Does it apply here? Who knows. I had looked into high speed photography (smoke penetration as well a slow motion of impacts) but my curiosity doesn't have that many dollar signs in front of it.

NFMike,

How 'bout a simple penetration test comparing penetration of similar shape and weight FN's with and w/o bands and at the same velocity?

But please, not before my pressure test!

JPK

NFMike,
Your slugs are in the mail today. You realize, of course, that simple water bucket penetration is even more worthless than my alternating water bags and plywood?

ALf wrote,

"Something else to consider, has anyone gone head to head between the old A-Square monometal solids and one of these new FN's under exactly similar conditions ?

I'm seriously thinking of getting myself a set of these bullet tube test things with the extra extensions and then firing some projectiles into it to compare. it would be really intesresting to see what happens?"

Yes I have, on both elephant, eight 68 liter (18 gallon) water containers (21 incxh bullet path for each), and spaced 3/4 inch plyboard (la grange stop box).



Pictured are 465 grain A Square .458 recovered from water tanks. They penetrated 49-60 inches and exited out the side of third rectangular 18 gallon container pitching and yawing.

the 450 grain NF averaged 126 inches penetration !

In wood stop box, results were as follows w 1-12 twist.



450 Dakota

# of boards perforated.

70 450 Dakota 500 FMJ RN 2,397 fps 1-12 Angled downward last 10 boards.

68 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,538 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. No tipping or bending.

67 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,563 fps 1-12 Tracked straight despite hit near L edge.

62 ½ 450 Dakota 450 Barnes RN 2,555 fps 1-12 Tracked straight.

54 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,367 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. Velocity matters! Perforated 13 less boards than 200 fps faster test shot.

54 450 Dakota 400 Barnes RN 2,676 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. SD matters! Same penetration as 465 grain A-Square despite 200 fps greater velocity.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NF RN-FN 2,527 fps 1-12 .Sharp edge to meplat. 367 diameter. Slightly concave. Just barley tipped.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NF TC-FN 2,612 fps 1-12 Telescoped less than 0.005 inch. Less than 0.008 expansion. Modest tipping.

47 450 Dakota 450 GS FN 2,524 fps 1-12 Expanded to .431 meplat. Tipped for pitch and yaw about 45 degrees. Damage to wood from 33 boards.

39 450 Dakota 450 NF-CP 2,617 fps 1-12 Expanded to .465 x .470 caliber (much less than in water). 75% of penetration of NF-FN.

33 – 43 450 Dakota 500 Kodiak FN 2,407 fps 1-12 Expanded to .65 caliber. A lot of damage to wood like a soft point from 12-14 boards. This bullet is loaded in Buffalo Bore 45-70 ammunition at 1,625 fps.

458 x 404 (Similar to 460 GA).

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10 twist. One to two more boards than 1-14 twist which had slightly higher velocity.

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10 twist

48 458 x 404 450 GSFN 2,450 fps 1-10 Perfectly straight bullet path.

46 458 x 404 500 FMJ 2,334 1-10 Hit left edge. Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 40 boards (13 more than 1-14 twist). Penetrated 10 boards more than 1-14 twist. Threw wood 30 feet!

28 458 x 404 500 Barnes X 2,334 1-10 twist. Very unstable. Expanded and turned 180 degrees. Fully sideways at 23 boards, traveled base forward until the 28th. An upward climbing wound profile like 5.45 x 39mm.

450 Ackley

70 1/2 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14 One to two boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

69 1/2 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14

36 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14 Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 27th, fully sideways @ 31 boards. Ten boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

458 Winchester (BRNO 602 with 25 inch barrel).

62 Simulated 458 WM 500 FMJ 2,030 1-10 (Down-loaded 458 x 404). Penetrated 3-4 more boards than standard twist.

59 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,021 1-14 Circa 1980 Remington/FMJ

58 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,105 1-14 Federal Premium/FMJ

39 ½ 458 Winchester 450 GSFN 2,050 1-12 200 fps less velocity than possible in a full power .458 WM.

23 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,105 1-14 Expanded. Federal Premium.

21 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,021 1-14 Expanded. Circa 1980 Remington.

416 x 375 Improved (Similar to 416 Remington or Hoffman but with 1-10 twist).

71 416 X 375 Imp 410gr Kynoch FMJ 2,400 1-10 Three shots. Very consistent performer. Kynoch is copper clad steel jacket like Hornady.

375 Improved (Similar to 375 Weatherby or 375 JRS), 22 ½ inch barrel.

71 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

70 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

50 375 Improved 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8 Exited side of stop-box. 13 more boards than standard twist that exited.

375 H & H (22 1/2 inch barrel)

65 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-8 Penetrated 4 more boards than standard twist.

61 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Twice

37 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Exited side of stop-box.

7.62 mm NATO

22 FN FAL 147 gr FMJ BT 2,800 fps 1-12 Recovered base forward. Began pitching at 14 boards, and completely side ways at 18 boards.



Obvioulsy I have alot more data in boards than water as water is so diffuclt to stop a 450 Dakota.

Alf, I think you will find that collecting your own data rather than interpolating from previous sources will have a profound impact on your own conclusions.

The tubes look interesting but appear to be quite a bit more dense that IWBA calibrated gelatin. Many of the european countries used soap so they could measure the volume of temporary cavity but I believe Fackler et al demonstrated this had little correlation to shots into the rear leg or anesthesized swine that were used to calibrate IWBA gelatin.

By all means get your hands dirty w some testing in medium of your choice. I know I would like to see difference in volume of TC-FN vs RN solid. And we all know you would be curious to test SWC vs RN at pistol velocites.

Andy

Bravo, Andy!

It would seem that water is a huge advantage to FN/FP solid bullets, and solid wood is advantageous to RN solids whether FMJ shorties or the long brass ones.

My results combining wood and water would dovetail nicely in agreement with yours, but I do not have enough "data" to be statistically significant.

Still, I have a hunch that elephant carcass and skull resistance to solids lies somewhere between wood and water.

Using a ratio of 1/2" thickness of plywood to 8.5 inches of water as condition "A" versus the doubled board ratio of 1" wood to 8" thickness of water as condition "B":

FN penetration "A": 10
FN penetration "B": 7

I still think that condition "A" might be similar to a Portuguese-Texan Heart Shot on buffalo.

Here is condition "B":

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Where now from here ? This pisses against the very gods of AR, Just look at the much maligned RN FMJ bullets compared to the FN bullets And the much praised Cup point ?

By Jove Alf has got it! Next time you hunt plywood Alf, be sure to use FMJ-RN bullets.

For those of us hunting game that is 70% water, a bit more judicious bullet selection is in order.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

But then here lies the dilemma, if you dehydrate a piece of muscle or tendon for purposes of study, in it's dry state it still has 60% of it's live water content trapped in it,( YC Fung : Biomechanics: the mechanical properties of living tissue ) the only way to get that water out is to incinerate it in a closed chamber and then to capture the water as vapour. So even a dried mummified piece of tendon still has water......

So 60% of its live water content means reduced to 60% of the original 60% by weight, or .6 x .6 = .36 or 36% water content remaining in the tissue dehydrated "for purposes of study," as you say, eh?

Alf, your mummifiers could take some lessons in dehydrating from the makers of Mountain House or whatever dehydrated foods.

Alternatively they could shoot the meat with an FN several times before applying the suction.

The first time around I thought you meant that the original 60% by weight of water was still present after the dehydration. That would be truly ineffective dehydration, and total nonsense, so excuse me for misreading that.

Alf,

Perhaps you are correct that the water in game animals is really a solid, and the bullet behaves as a liquid. In that event, superpenetration is the phenomena of a liquid bullet vaporizing and travelling as a gas bubble through an animal. A FN bullet creates a larger vapor bubble, explaining the greater wound channel and deeper penetration. As the bullet slows, however, conditions for vaporization of the liquid bullet are lost and the vapor becomes liquid, and as the bullet slows further, it re-solidifies. The rifling marks are re-formed on the exterior of the bullet, of course.

___

We can learn from all tests, including but not limited to Mr. LaGrange's tests. But apparently he did not find the secret formula because people are still designing new bullets and performing tests.

Eureka! The Iron Buffalo (Condition C) should be composed of 60% water and 40% wood by weight to make it more realistic.

.

Um ALF, I bet if you take the bullet you like the best and hit the elephant in the brain or heart it will die. How about spending your time and money on practice and trophy fees and be happy. I have yet to see a water jug or plywood hanging on a wall as a trophy.

This discussion reminds me of the old joke about economists. An economist is someone who will say about an observed phenomenon "Yes, it works in reality. But can it work in theory?"

.

I'm with Alf in the sense that I don't think that anyone has proof of the detailed dynamics of a bullet transitioning a carcase. Hence I don't think the term "supercavitation" can be scientifically applied to the description. I don't care enough about terminology to argue the point, though.

However, I do think that there is a growing body of pragmatic evidence that TC-FN bullets offer as much or more penetration on DG than RN bullets. The same data indicates even more strongly that the TC-FN bullets tend to track straighter in the non-homogenous medium of a carcase.

I've seen for myself the efficiency of a hard-cast FN bullet on pigs. I realize that rifle bullets don't strike at 1400 fps like the 44 Mag, but if the rifle bullet tracks straight it will eventually slow down to that velocity. At 1400 fps the 300 grain 44 cal bullet will routinely track straight for 36 inches of pig while almost never diverging from a straight track. At 1400 fps it basically leaves a 44 cal hole in muscle, but tears the lungs up to about an inch diameter.

Bottom line is I'll take the FNs until I see statistical proof the RN is better.

Of course I'm not intending to shoot elephant skulls, either!

.