quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU GET A LION TO SHOW YOU HIS TEETH BEFORE YOU SHOOT HIM......

................................

Get close enough and he will show them to you!

........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
What is the life expectancy of a lion in the wild?

Outside of parks for male lion who are weaned...the mean life expectancy is believe by most to be ~6yr. But there is not a lot of data to support that. But, when critical aging is applied to hunted specimens...it is a rarity indeed to find a >8.

Eight to 10 year old male lion outside of parks are rare.

In parks...a few male lion live to the 10-12 year old range. And, 15 should be probably be considered a practical maximum.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU GET A LION TO SHOW YOU HIS TEETH BEFORE YOU SHOOT HIM......

J$:

Who needs teeth when the presence of elbow tufts confirms it to be an older/mature male (6+)

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU GET A LION TO SHOW YOU HIS TEETH BEFORE YOU SHOOT HIM......

J$:

Who needs teeth when the presence of elbow tufts confirms it to be an older/mature male (6+)

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
But, when critical aging is applied to hunted specimens...it is a rarity indeed to find a >8.

Eight to 10 year old male lion outside of parks are rare.

I have to disagree with you on that. Mark Sullivan has been killing 12-15 year old wild lions on a regular basis. Just ask him.


All kidding aside, I believe that it is very important that we don't overstate the age/life expectancy of the animals we hunt. The fact of the matter is that killing a mature lion is only shaving a year or two off his life on average.(the same is true with most of the animals we hunt....)

We really hurt our cause if we let the average person believe that we are killing lions that have lived only 40% of their average life expectancy(ie. killing a 6yo lion that the antis believe would have lived to 15, when in fact such a lion would have been lucky to make it past 8)

I have noted that those who "dislike" hunting(not the rabid antis) are very surprised when you point out that the animals we hunters kill were going to die anyway, maybe not that day or the next but relatively soon.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
But, when critical aging is applied to hunted specimens...it is a rarity indeed to find a >8.

Eight to 10 year old male lion outside of parks are rare.

I have to disagree with you on that. Mark Sullivan has been killing 12-15 year old wild lions on a regular basis. Just ask him.


All kidding aside, I believe that it is very important that we don't overstate the age/life expectancy of the animals we hunt. The fact of the matter is that killing a mature lion is only shaving a year or two off his life on average.(the same is true with most of the animals we hunt....)

We really hurt our cause if we let the average person believe that we are killing lions that have lived only 40% of their average life expectancy(ie. killing a 6yo lion that the antis believe would have lived to 15, when in fact such a lion would have been lucky to make it past 8)

I have noted that those who "dislike" hunting(not the rabid antis) are very surprised when you point out that the animals we hunters kill were going to die anyway, maybe not that day or the next but relatively soon.

Jason:

Good point. It is important to make the pitch logical.

I had a guy cold call and tell me I was five times more likely to suffer long term disability than I was to die.

I told him, "I don't know what the odds of long term disability, but I do know the odds of my death are 100 percent."

Last year, with Terry Anders, we spent a few hours with a gal working on the lion study in and outside of Hwange Park.
She was AMAZING!!!!
She was from Oxford University, really into it, and the well being of the lions
Mark Young, can you get in touch with Terry Anders, and getthis gals contact info?
I am very sure she would be happy to share her findings with us, in regards to ages and travel patterns, etc..
She was just incredible, and it was fascinating how well she understands the age dynamics, breeding structures, ranges, and pretty much everything else....
If Mark can get her email info, I think we would all be very interested!!!
(or perhaps another one of you Zim boys that spends time in Hwange knows her?)

quote:

Originally posted by DinoinPV:
Last year, with Terry Anders, we spent a few hours with a gal working on the lion study in and outside of Hwange Park.
She was AMAZING!!!!
She was from Oxford University, really into it, and the well being of the lions
Mark Young, can you get in touch with Terry Anders, and getthis gals contact info?
I am very sure she would be happy to share her findings with us, in regards to ages and travel patterns, etc..
She was just incredible, and it was fascinating how well she understands the age dynamics, breeding structures, ranges, and pretty much everything else....
If Mark can get her email info, I think we would all be very interested!!!
(or perhaps another one of you Zim boys that spends time in Hwange knows her?)

Rosemary Groom is the lady that does lion research in and around Hwange. Aaron and I speak with her regularly. I can ask her if it is OK to share her e-mail address with you.

That would be great!!
And I thinker should all listen to what she has to say...
She was remarkable,and so passionate in regards to lions that I would trust her word as gospel....
(and not at all anti hunting)

One of Mark's cats shot by my friend last year in Tanzania. I may not say 12 but at least 8yrs. old



Mike

quote:

Originally posted by DinoinPV:
That would be great!!
And I thinker should all listen to what she has to say... She was remarkable,and so passionate in regards to lions that I would trust her word as gospel. would trust her word as gospel....
(and not at all anti hunting)

Great! Cause she believes wholeheartedly in the concepts and strategies that Aaron and I have put forth over the last few years.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
One of Mark's cats shot by my friend last year in Tanzania. I may not say 12 but at least 8yrs. old



Mike

Mike,
How do you know he is at least 8? I am not arguing but if people are going to ages around...they should have some objective data to support them.

Hi Mike,

Boy, we'd all like to see more pic's of THAT lion.
He looks FINE and I am sure the client hunter is
HAPPY !!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I am not arguing but if people are going to ages around...they should have some objective data to support them.

Lane, I must say I got a chuckle out of that. Read all the threads on lion aging and the one clear thing you take away is that, insofar as field aging lions is concerned, it is not that far removed from using a Ouija board. Then to see a reference to "objective data" well I thought that was funny. Undoubtedly you meant postmortem data.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I am not arguing but if people are going to ages around...they should have some objective data to support them.

Lane, I must say I got a chuckle out of that. Read all the threads on lion aging and the one clear thing you take away is that, insofar as field aging lions is concerned, it is not that far removed from using a Ouija board. Then to see a reference to "objective data" well I thought that was funny. Undoubtedly you meant postmortem data.

Mike,
It is actually NOT that hard IF one is willing to learn and exercise restraint. ALL you have to do in the field is get to 6 or greater. And yes...post-mortem you can be very close in estimating age and there IS a lot of objective data to do that with.

Having watched the ages turned by scientists actully critically evaluating age in lions that were killed by hunters (Paula White, Paul Funston, Colleen Begg, Craig Packer to name a few)...I get a bit synical about these ages of 8 and above being thrown about as they are NOT the norm...at least when objective criteria are used post-mortem.

P.S. In Mark's defense...the lions shown in this thread are exemplary. He should be commended! But we are hunters...NOT fisherman . My only complaint was that unrealistic ages (at least on the first) were being bantered about withOUT any basis.

So here are 2 lions in my trophy room both mature free range lions left one from Mozambique and right one Namibia Desert Lion, both over 8 years of age and both have huge amounts of hair behind elbow of front legs, I will send some photos tomorrow of there skulls and teeth wear,

Lion aging in the field is a difficult science and one only gets better at it with time in the bush, and learning from Lions harvested.

Well done Mark on a fantastic Lion,

quote:

Lion aging in the field is a difficult science and one only gets better at it with time in the bush, and learning from Lions harvested.

Especially the latter.

Justin,
Please post more pics of your trophy room.

Caracal, when you coming to SA, will have a good bottle of red opened and will give you a tour, I will upload some pic,s to the Trophy room forum, yes to all before I get crucified, the Lion on the left might have been a tad young, but was my First Male and was a cattle killer so I did not mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Here you go Aaron:

It was worh reading this thread just to see that footage!!!

Thanks Todd.

Bwana Love the footage

Just posting this from the parallel thread in "African Lions Hunting Management & Ecology" section:

Lane,

I have been away from the thread for a little while and just got back. I see things are a little heated and I am not sure if this is a good time to ask so please don’t misinterpret. As I previously noted I am not an expert on judging/aging lion and do not have experience with them as many do other than having seen them a few times in the bush. I have not hunted them personally.

Have you hunted and killed many wild lions?
In what areas were you able to kill them?
Would you be willing to post their photos?
Do you know their exact ages?

Thanks for entertaining my questions. I realize they are of a personal/professional nature but they are not meant as an attack.

Best always,
Shawn

quote:

Have you hunted and killed many wild lions?
In what areas were you able to kill them?
Would you be willing to post their photos?
Do you know their exact ages?

I would like to ad a question to this list,
How many lions have you personally observed in the wild (not in a park)?

@JKhunter
will let you know when I am in SA!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Have you hunted and killed many wild lions?
In what areas were you able to kill them?
Would you be willing to post their photos?
Do you know their exact ages?

I would like to ad a question to this list,
How many lions have you personally observed in the wild (not in a park)?

I would like to add another question:
Do you have a wildlife related (academic) education?
If yes, have you activly done wildlife field research/work?

Very big cat well done all involved.

I have to keep up my day job as well...don't have time to double post. I tried to move this long ago so Shawn's post was not trampled.

I am only going to add comments in the lion conservation forum.

Brought over from the other post for continuity:

Lane,

Thank you for helping me to understand your background better. I appreciate you narratively diagraming the typical path/flow of information from the LCTF consulting experts (Craig Packer, & Paula white), the team that guides your opinion (Karyl Whitman, Paul Trethowan, Colleen Begg, Rosemary Groom, and Luke Hunter), and how you and Aaron speak with these members with regularity.

I appreciate that you affirm, as I have also noted about myself, that you are not an expert on lion hunting or lion aging. I want to say before I continue that I fully support the efforts of the LCTF and also the group of consulting experts, PHs, and others that work to do right by lions and assure that we as hunters are targeting the appropriately aged lions to kill. Sustainability and expansion of the species is and should be of the utmost importance to us all. I believe that it is.

With the afore mentioned stated, this is where the rub is for me regarding your response to this post regarding the lion killed by Mark Sullivan and his client. As many have safely stated, the lion is a fabulous lion and is definitely an appropriate lion to kill. I believe it is a lion of a hunting lifetime.

What I have concern with is that someone (Mark) who spent a great deal of time trying to learn how to age lions with the best science of that time, coupled with 24 years of field experience using the observable physical characteristics learned from the data, and then killing fabulous lions in Tanzania was discredited with the view of a single photo. It was done so and appeared to me at least initially to be based on your professional opinion of that photo. It was justified by saying the science he learned from is not what it is today.

You started by saying the chances of the lion being 12 were slim and that you can see enough of the teeth to say that without a doubt. This was followed by:

-With that photo...it is NOT hard to say with a high degree of certainty that this lion is not 12 (or even close).

-What I do have a problem with is BS and that statement about that lion being 12 is BS.

-The lion is not 12 or even close. He is probably 6...7 at best.

-The chance of ever encountering a 12 year old male lion in the wild is slim enough and it would not look anything like this lion.

-You later congratulate Mark for the methods he used to gain age knowledge even though the method is now invalid. You go on to state:

-I get a bit cynical about these ages of 8 and above being thrown about as they are not the norm.

-Almost no PH has the expertise to age a post-mortem lion.

-Every person who is an expert on aging post-mortem lion has never shot one.

-Nobody could shoot enough lions to make them an expert.

-Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson shares the opinion voiced by me on this lion.

-And finally, Aaron Neilson is the LCTF member who is the expert on lion hunting.

Lane, I know this is going to feel like a personal attack but it is not intended to discredit you in any way professionally. I have the utmost respect for your profession as a veterinarian and also the work you do to speak for the LCTF.

I have to say that I feel more confused after reading the excerpts I pulled from your posts about the photo I posted of this lion. What I get from all of it is that we should only say the lion or most any lion that is appropriate to kill is 6 or older and that any estimation beyond that is inaccurate and therefore should not be made.

I apologize in advance because I know this is sounding confrontational but I would like to know some specifics. I would like to know who specifically, as an expert of the LCTF, that has the ability to judge the actual age of this lion simply by the photograph I posted, has stated professionally that this lion is not 12 and is likely 6 or 7?

Thanks for helping out with this Lane.

Respectfully,
Shawn

Anyone interested in the rest-of-the-story...please see the Lion Conservation Forum thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Here you go Aaron:

THAT IS FUN TO WATCH !!!

Just a little FYI for those of you saying 'who cares if he aged it at 12 and its 6+, it's a good lion'!!

Pieces of information like being 6 (give or take) years out on a lion aging in the wrong hands could spell disaster for hunters!

If posters here are correct in their claims this lion is nowhere near 12 and the PH is indeed 6 years out, how many other times has he been wrong? and how many lions have been killed that were under 6 that he deemed incorrectly to be over?

Just a thought

JKHunter is there any chance of you putting anymore pictures of your trophy room up? looks amazing!

Brought over from the parallel post for continuity:

Lane,

I understand that you reject the notion regarding the age estimate of this lion by Mark Sullivan after conferring with the LCTF consulting experts but as you say yourself, you are not an expert at aging lion. You are certainly entitled to your personal opinion and I have no problem with it and would fight for your right to express it when it is represented as personal opinion.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that a PH with 24 years of experience with lions in Tanzania (Mark Sullivan), providing an estimate of field age drawing from his experiences, goes a long way to discredit hunters simply because you say statistics dictate that the chance of this lion being 12 are extremely slim. You provided two examples of how this is problematic but those two examples show that the animal is greater than six and that scientific testing is needed to pinpoint the actual age (quote excerpts directly below).

As you provided, the LCTF expert position from the specific unidentified source of two LCTF consulting experts, "we feel this lion is well above the legal minimum and are looking forward to seeing how old this lion really is."

You add the LCTF expert position, from the specific unidentified source of two LCTF consulting experts, “Thanks for the link. It is a good looking lion, no question, but look at the lion's teeth -- no chance that this cat is 12+yrs. Maybe 6ish, but it's impossible to give a good estimate without more and better pics, especially of the teeth and skull.”

What I personally conclude from the above expert comments you provided is that the consulting experts believe the lion is greater than six, likely less than 12, but it is impossible to provide a more definitive estimate than this without more and better pictures of the teeth and skull. I also conclude they affirm that the only way to be certain it is not closer to 12 is through evaluating the skull and x-rays of the 2nd upper premolars.

Aaron, I did not intend on dragging you into this conversation but since you come willingly I will reply. You mentioned “I can confirm that a couple of the expert scientists…have looked at, and commented on the lion photo you posted. “ Aaron, I appreciate your affirming this but if Lane says that the LCTF consulting experts have done so I accept Lane’s word that this has occurred. Lane is a gentleman and professional and I have no reason not to accept his word.

With all due respect and not to minimize your experiences, the vast majority of your experience with lion is as a hunter client with limited PH field experience. That hunter client experience is valuable to be sure but is not what I am discussing. I do appreciate that you offer several personal opinions about what “anyone with real knowledge” would conclude. That is my point entirely.

If the only people capable of properly estimating the age range of this lion, which has crossed the threshold characteristics of being 6+, are the two LCTF consulting experts then let’s clearly identify their expert opinions.

If others, such as you, Lane, and those on AR that are affiliated with LCTF (but are not LCTF consulting experts at aging lion) make comments about age, why not clearly identify those estimates as personal opinions and not expert opinion.

Aaron, you go on to say “anyone with real knowledge” and offer two comments, followed up by saying “With all that said, I of certainly (sic) could be wrong.”

My point is this; the waters get easily muddied and cause confusion because you and Lane speak as the voice of LCTF. When you go on to make personal comment it would be helpful to clearly identify it as such especially when those comments are intermixed with the LCTF consulting experts opinion. It becomes unclear what is personal opinion rather than LCTF consulting expert position. For me it is confusing and can easily be misunderstood.

I do not want my relationship with you and Lane to take on the tone of being confrontational so perhaps we can agree to disagree. I will buy you both a beverage of your choice at SCI if you are willing to accept.

Thanks for letting me say my piece and I have enjoyed hearing your perspective as well as the LCTF consulting expert position. I hope we can continue to work together for the good of hunting and conservation.

Best always,
Shawn

Oldest Lion taken by us, My Dad shot this Lion in Mozambique in Sabi Conservancy;

I put this male at 12+, we never had him aged as he was obviously very old any ways and did not see the need,

If you were to apply the "Sullivan Scale of Aging Lions" the photos you have just posted would put this animal's age at around 25 years!

jkhunter,

Thank you for posting those photos! A picture is worth a thousand words. Those teeth ARE characteristic of a 10 or > lion (def could be 12).

OK, you guys cheated when you opened up yet another Sullivan Lion thread. I predicted this one would go at least five pages so if you add the post from the other, I'd be right!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
OK, you guys cheated when you opened up yet another Sullivan Lion thread. I predicted this one would go at least five pages so if you add the post from the other, I'd be right!

Sorry Jorge :0)
Shawn